Transcripts For CSPAN3 Jonathan 20240703

Still happy with me . Will you join me in taking this terrific and. Also, i think its very much for doingit is really wonderful foro have john and i back the Carter Library you know it has just been several years since jonathan was here. He was here for the book, a book about jackie robinson. And thats been probably seven or eight years since then. And whats really neat is that jonathan had decided to kick off his tour for his new book. His book just came out yesterday and that here at the jimmy president ial library, which is really, i think, great. This is his sixth book. Hes just as i said about jackie robinson, lou gehrig, muhammad, al capone as as the foursome who really did the push to get the approval of the Birth Control pill. But the thing that the thing that you see in jonathans writing is an amount of research that goes into it. And i think he comes by that naturally his dad was accountant so a stickler for details and his mom was a community activist. And so if you think about and think about the subjects hes written, jackie robinson, mohammed ali, Martin Luther king, i think he gets that from her. Well, hes been a reporter at the new orleans timespicayune, dallas morning news, chicago magazine, the wall street journal. He has taught at Columbia College and lecture was at northwestern university, the Washington Post calls his new book the most compelling account of kings life in a generous motion. And so i think were in for a treat tonight. So it was important. I think for us to have just right person to interview Jonathan Valerie jackson is that person you she is always referred to as former first lady of atlanta which is true, but it really doesnt tell her story i mean, shes grown up she grows up in virginia is the one of the First Americans students admitted her high school she goes to college gets her in Business Administration goes to the Wharton School of business probably the finer school of business gets her mba gets her mba there she goes on shes an advertising executive a Regional Marketing executive for an airline she when she married mayor Maynard Jackson who was the first African American mayor of the city of atlanta. She served as an advisor. The citys Economic Development program bringing national convene events and programs to city, and then if i were to go on and list every board and committee and commercial that she is on heads, youd never hear anything from jonathan tonight so join me in welcoming Valerie Jackson and jonathan i. Say evening good evening and of all things that he mentions, my favorite thing to is to read and talk to authors, which ive been doing for over 20 years. Well, im so happy to be here. Jonathan its so good to see you again. I think the last time we were together, i was interviewing you on your muhammad thats right book. And we a wonderful time. As a matter of fact i commented to you about how many tabs i had to put in the book because. Youve got even more of this. Listen, i look, i was trying to be discriminate. I was halfway through the book and i noticed that almost every page had a tab on. I said, wait a minute valerie, you got to slow down here. Got the description nating. Right. Well, this is discrimination all right. And that was after i slowed down. But what this really means is that this is a very comprehensive, rich book that contains so much Important Information that you really i cant resist underscore and highlight and think so which color marks the corrections . Im not. I think going to ask me which ones are the f. Yeah, ill get to that later. Right. Right. Anyway, there have been so many books written already about Martin Luther king. Ive got at least eight or nine on my shelf, not counting. And not to mention his that, he wrote about himself too, about ten of those. So the first question one wants to know is why did you think there was a need for yet another Martin Luther book . Two reasons. Mainly, one, it had been a long time since the last king biography 40 years when the Steven Lomazow colbert the trumpet sound came out. And since then weve had other great books about civil rights, about king, obviously the Taylor Branch trilogy. But thats covers really in the king years. David garrels book is not a biography. Its wonderful. But 40 years between king biographies is ridiculous. Thats much too long. And in that time, obviously, theres a lot more material, not just fbi material, but archival material thats come into play. And at the same time, there were people alive who knew dr. King and this was really the spot where i could get around in, interview them before it was too late. Obviously, when i was here in atlanta and for my ali interviewing people like john lewis and andrew young, i just gravitated toward asking them, you know, what was dr. King like . Because ali and king met a couple of times, i began asking them, you know, how they got along. Really. I was just curious to talk. People who knew Martin Luther king jr and you know, were here at the carter center. Jimmy carter was born four and a half years before Martin Luther king. So jimmy carter could still be with us. I mean, sorry, jimmy carter is still with us. Guy, right . Right. Martin luther could still be with us. His older sister is still us. So i just realized that this was an Incredible Opportunity to meet people who knew him and to to him and record their stories one last time and. Like you said, there are so many things, personal papers, a, that Coretta Scott king had written that included a lot of things about. So there a great deal of information that had not been out there before that you have brought to the front. But i must say that the poor portrait of king that emerges from your book may be troublesome to some people. But you said that you wanted to recover the real man from the mr. Hagiography. And i had to look at it. But even though i know what it means to the audience, what you meant by you wanted to recover him from the hagiography that surrounds often one of the things thats happened especially since the National Holiday was implemented, is that weve turned him into this almost ideal lobbyist figure and. You know, we teach beginning in kindergarten, this vision of dream of king, beginning with i have a dream and. We often dont get much more sophisticated than that. And in the process of doing that, i think we lose sight of his humanity. We lose sight of the fact that he had feelings he suffered, that he had doubts and that he wasnt perfect. And we dont need our heroes to be perfect. We just need them to be brave, idealistic and and moral. He was all of those things. So i wanted write a book that you could feel like you believed that this was the real man and not the cardboard cutout that weve been getting for so long. Tell us a little bit about Martin Luther king as a young man. Michael. Yeah, mike a little mike as he was called because his daddy was big mike grew up here in atlanta, of course, auburn avenue and he was, of course, the preachers son and had to was under constant scrutiny as a result that and grew up the bible before he learned to read and also you somewhat privileged compared to i talked to a lot of people who knew him who said that he didnt seem to be as bruised by growing up in the racist south as some of the others because he had this little bit of a bubble, you know, auburn avenue considered, you know, like the miracle mile. It was it was a special place where people are known businesses and had powerful churches and had some power within the community to negotiate with politicians. And king had this, you know, educated set of parents and his father came from sharecropping. He wasnt always educated be educated himself by the time he got to atlanta. And, you know, all of these influences really prepared. King to be who he was. So how did he come come from being michael to now Martin Luther well, his father began his father was born michael king with no name in stockbridge. His when he moved to atlanta, he began calling himself m. L. King. And its not even that he had a middle name. I think a lot of at that time felt like initials, a little bit of dignity and it was it was a trendy thing at the time, just to call yourself by two initials and it appears that he did it really just because he was rising in the world and he wanted to be a little more professional. And m. L. Sounded a little bit more professional. And then he began calling himself martin and marvin at one point in the 1930 census, hes listed as marvin king that might, just might have been a mistake by the census taker. We dont. But then he travels to and learns more about Martin Luther and comes and turns the l to luther and a very gradual process. Its not until his wedding invitation goes out that he begins to call himself martin looking for the first time, and then a few years. After that he begins using Martin Luther king and then tells his son, by the way, name is changing, too. So why Martin Luther was the significance . Why would he choose . That name of Martin Luther was the great protestant reformer from germany who stood for religious independence. Standing up for your beliefs for, you know, for principle over over practicality. Well, he didnt really want to be a minister did he know he was his father for a long time, assumed that he was going to be a minister yeah but well its interesting though i was really struck by this i found and autoblog raphe that daddy king Martin Luther king jr senior was referred to as daddy king. I found autobiography that he wrote that was never published. And in that autobiography he talks about how he really didnt pressure his kids to become preachers. But martin junior his brother eddie became preachers. Daddy king said he wanted them make money. He was really he was really more concerned with them. You im sweating quite a bit here. This happens to me often. So dont worry. Youre not making me nervous. I didnt mean no, but. In this autobiography, that was never published. Daddy king, that he really wanted them to be businessmen, lawyers. He was really concerned with their Financial Security and thats so interesting to me because, you know, daddy can, grow up. As i said, sharecropper, son and. I think that his ability to get off the farm and go to atlanta and remake himself was was a was a changing experience for his entire family. And he was also concerned with his childrens safety. You know, the idea that Martin Luther king junior would become the leader of a protest movement in montgomery to begin with, really him. And he went to montgomery several times and said, youve got to stop this. Youve got to come home, knock this off because youre going to get killed. So dan king, like most parents, was protective of his son, wanted to be financially stable and, you know, we often hear that he pressured his kids to become preachers. But according to unpublished autobiography, its not true of the the one thing about his childhood that struck me in the book was when they had the premiere of gone with the wind here in atlanta, big, big premiere. You know and what the problem it was segregated so blacks were not allowed to to attend you know as guest unless were being a chauffeur or a waiter but the family had a great choir at Ebenezer Baptist church. And im not sure if if daddy king made the suggestion or if they reached out to him. But somehow or another were invited to perform, not to be a guest, but to perform at the premiere and they did. Tell me, what role did he play . Well, Martin Luther king jr played. He was as an enslaved boy and sat in the front row of the choir the entire choir was dressed in slave togs and. They performed for this all white audience of these rich benefactors, these rich moviegoers, clark gable flown in on a private jet. This the biggest event in atlanta history at that time. And it celebrated slave culture and daddy king decided to bring his choir an alberta king. His wife led that choir. And our friend, the dearly beloved june dobbs , told me that the rest of much of the community was furious with daddy for allowing his choir to perform at the premiere of gone with the wind. But daddy king, the response was a lot of that movie is true and its a kind of a big deal. I think he got caught in the excitement of the celebrity, but the thought and theres a picture of it you cant quite make young Martin Luther king jr, but you can see the children in the front row at, the hollywood premiere and Martin Luther king is one of those children in the front row. Well, aunt june, june main, its aunt one of the six dropped sisters who were all outstanding women in their own right, john dobbs, whom a street is named after here, as you might know, had six daughters and theyre all excelled i mean, its mother was a french professor, but the grandfather dobbs was very upset about the king family performing in this performance. And june said that basically daddy king led a combination of proto house and accommodation. Yeah. To be able to operate in the city and, to develop grace with the white leaders. Grandfather dobbs didnt. That was a good enough reason. But anyway, well move on from that or get it now in his he he actually ended up going to seminary right tim at school of ministry and had a have a little in terms of he was an eloquent speaker but his writing left to be desired so he often had a handicap talk how he plagiarized. Well as it says to it i didnt want to say that to be blunt here. Were among friends. Listen, as i said before, i think its important that we acknowledge that our heroes dont have to be perfect or else whos going to expect anyone to be a hero to lead . Whos going to a position of leadership . If you have to be perfect of us are perfect. So he skipped several grades at school. It really set him back and had to account for it and it affected his his his performance all through high college. And then also i think theres a somewhat of a culture there are some experts in the room who can chime in on this or dispute me, but i preachers dont the same attitude about plagiarism that College Professors have because. They borrow from other preachers and they repeat and thats part of the beauty of of the of the church. Its part of the beauty of sermons, is that theyre like jazz musicians. They hear a phrase, they borrow a phrase, they make their own. So Martin Luther king grew up practicing sermons long before he practiced writing high school or college dissertations. So he began plagiarizing an early age. Id the fact that he plagiarized his doctoral dissertation dissertation is well known. It was reported years ago by professors stanford i discovered and im sure im the first one to discover this, that he also plagiarized the High School Speech contest that he entered and finished in third place. So the Martin Luther king finished third place in a public speaking. Thats shocking enough. Yes. Maybe if he hadnt plagiarize said and written his own, he would have won. Yeah, he got bad grades in english. I was surprised at that. Im going to move on now because theres much to cover and i want to kind of get to as much as i can. King was influenced by several great minds like Reinhold Niebuhr philosophers like Friedrich Nietzsche and gandhi. Of course, in addition to the religious ministers that he studied, who were some of the most influences. Do you believe on dr. King and why . Well, if were just talking academics, i was gonna say jesus obviously is probably the most important influence other than his parents, maybe more than his parents, but Benjamin Mays, morehouse has to be at the very top of the list. I would put Benjamin Mays as greater influence than thoreau, niebuhr and gandhi, even because Benjamin Mays offered a vision that was just subtly different enough from what his father offered from what Martin Luther king senior offered. Martin Luther King Jr was like a lot of us a little embarrassed. His father, he was a country preacher. His grammar wasnt good. His speeches were very his sermons were very emotional, you know, he shouted and he stomped. And young. Martin felt like he wanted to be where than that. And he wanted to be more of an outright activist he wanted to make if he if he was going to be a priest a preacher, he was going to use it to fight jim crow, not just to lead his community and uplift his community, but to get on the front lines. The fight against crime. Benjamin mays offered vision of how to do that. Benjamin mays combined mind the preaching and the the intellectual rigor and the discipline to to do something with yourself. He said, you know, morehouse, morehouse men had a responsibility. And i think Martin Luther king really felt like thats the kind of man wanted to be. Well, Benjamin Mays was my maynards hero. Also is one of mine, too. I met him. He was a wonderful person. And favorite quote is from benjamin. He means and it is. And im sure that dr. King probably this, too, if you believe something, you must act on it. If you dont act on it, its not a belief. Its an opinion. I like that. Well, all right. I dont mean not in my book. Im making a list of all the things i regret that are not in the book. And on the list. No. All right. Whatever. Were familiar with a lot of the names associated with dr. King, ralph abernathy, who was his best male friend. Of course, you know. Bayard rustin. I mean, i thought he was outstanding. A philip randolph, thurgood marshall. We Benjamin Mays. And then there were people like Stanley Levison, which we i never really heard very much about until i read your talk about stanley levitan, levison emerged the leader of the montgomery bus boycott. Immediately people began to say this guy is magic this guys got power hes hes hes lighting up the media he people are flocking to him saying we need to get this guy to help us expand this beyond. Montgomery so literally people like Bayard Rustin people. Lillian smith just arrive montgomery saying we need you and were going to you know what can we do to help you take this beyond montgomery and one of the people who contact him is this white businessman with with and long lasting communist ties named Stanley Levison and Stanley Levison goes on to become one of kings closest friends and best advisors for the rest of his life. He ghost writes a lot of kings books for him and. They have these long, late night conversations. King was not a good sleeper. Hed be up two or three in the morning with ideas racing through his head, and he could call Stanley Levison probably more than anyone else, to kick these ideas around. And its a fascinating friendship. Its strictly an activist intellectual friendship, not like, you know, ralph abernathy, with whom, you know, he would die in every, you know, whenever hes in atlanta who sunday dinners and all of that. Well, levison said that king was really the most powerful figure in the country without political party. A labor union, a wealthy benefactor behind him, that that was significant . I thought that was significant. But Stanley Levison also brought some problems with him being. His strong connection with the communism how did that affect dr. King and did eventually try to distance himself, maybe from he was warned over and over again by the kennedys. You got to cut levison out of your life. If you because draper hoovers his breathing down your neck and hes upset that youre and they thought it was a real problem for them too its not that the kennedys werent just blaming hoover. They felt like they could all be tarred with communist brush because they were because king was had this not just with levison, but with several other people within the organization. And its its silly because. There were former communists all over america at this point, right. And including people who worked around the white house. Right. Right. So but but it became an obsession for j. Edgar hoover and it led in part thats one of the reasons that hoover became obsessed with really destroying king. It began with the communism and with the fact that king dared to criticize the fbi. Yes. King said that the fbi had a problem because it had no black agents in, the south, no black fbi agents operating in the south. They were supposed to be helping to protect the civil rights marchers, the activists. But how could they when they were all white and they were all in bed, basically, the white police and sheriffs departments in the southern towns in which they were working and most of them were members, many of them were kkk members. So when king said this to edgar, who was famously sensitive to criticism, became, how dare this barrhead as he liked to call king, how this guy criticize me and and thats really a big part of why the entire weight of the governments Law Enforcement bureau came down on one moral leader. Those are some of the strong men that surrounded. King. Tell me about the strong who worked there. Skin off the bones. Dont let me get personal here and oftentimes were subjugated to lesser roles in the sclc. Talk about that environ and including curtis got king lets be clear make play. Yeah the Civil Rights Movement was led primarily by black baptist preachers who grew up in a culture that did not really encourage womens leadership and people like dorothy, ella baker, Septima Clark talked about it all the time that were valued as foot soldiers, but there was no chance that they were ever to be given positions of leadership. And ella baker in particular was incredibly she was often she was briefly the the acting head of the sclc but executive director. Shes the acting director. And she she would have been a great for the permanent executive director job, but it was never even addressed then. And levison prevailed king to hire her because he had no intention. Yeah they knew how good and thats again because they are not the same culture and regret of preachers who had even bias than most of most of america had bias towards women in position of leadership in the fifties sixties. But i think in the religious community that was even deeper and and it held the back. And they were they were fortunate to have some of those people that i just mentioned working in the fields and doing a lot of the grunt work, organizing, educating, teaching the nonviolent classes, knocking on doors, working on voter registration. They played an enormous but they did not play the kind of role that they could have. And the same is true for coretta king, because scott king was more experienced activist than martin king when they met. And i that thats probably the that most attracted him to her is that she came not just with the passion to fight for change with the experience at antioch college. She had been involved in the naacp. Shed been involved in local protests of barbershops that wouldnt cut black peoples. Shed been to the progressive Partys National convention. So. King when he meets in boston, hes dating, hes dated a lot of women. Hes dating a lot of women at the time he meets coretta and he says this is the one this youre the one im going to marry tells her on the first date why shes beautiful shes brilliant but so were some of the women. But i believe it was because she had that experience as an activist and that really excited but he didnt really take advantage it didnt he did not i mean she he wanted her at home to take care of the kids basically. Yeah. And it just goes to show how deep some of our biases blind spots run is still there. Theyre still there. Yeah, yeah. Although, man, it was not like that. And i know that and i believe you, but in coretta case, it was it was really painful because she beseeched him over and and she writes in her own memoir about this conversation where. Shes now got four children at home. And she says to him, you know, i feel called to do this work to. And he says, youre not called the way im called in anyway. You have to stay home with the children and she says i accepted that and over and again and i found these tapes that she made when she was working on her memoir. I again, i think im the first person to have to these tapes right after her husbands assassination, she began working on a memoir and she sat down with the ghostwriter and an editor and she recorded what she wanted to say in the book. And over and over again in these tapes, she says. And that, too, i accepted and you just, you know, your heart just just goes out to her and montgomery you said that dr. King found his voice and his purpose following. The montgomery bus boycott and. He said his purpose was not to instruct to educate. His purpose was to prophesies what did he mean by that prophesies, i think. King when he found his voice discovered that he was offering vision of the future. He was not just asking people to follow him. He was asking them to envision an america that did not yet exist in america that had been promised in the declaration of independence. And he was asking all of america, White America included, to share this vision, to see that this was possible. So in a way, hes evoking image of what we can be as a country and and its and its its magical in a way, because combines these things that all can sort of agree that we believe in the words in the bible, the words in the constitution. So hes what hes i think when when hes prophesying is is a future that where america actually lives up to what it says its going to do to begin with. Well, by 1964 at the sclc, he was pretty much in disarray. It was broke. That leadership was uncertain. People were squabbling between each other. And then there the competition with the naacp and snick and. Groups. So and one in particular, i know it was diane nash that women didnt get. I noticed dianes name because i think you said she was one of the only people she would not have had to bring that right. Well, i got i interviewed. Im just kidding. Okay. Okay. Know, i interviewed almost everybody who i wanted to interview. I worked really hard to try to. And there were some people in the here who helped me make connections to get interviews. Dennis is the only person who i was not able to get to talk to me. And the reasons he wouldnt touch me. She was very nice about it. She said, im tired of all the about the Civil Rights Movement centering on dr. King. Hes he was a great but there were a lot of great leaders and this he the Movement Made king king did not make the movement and thats what she said. And i completely respect that opinion and i understand why she you know, it was more of a you know, a symbolic protest. Im not going be help you with this book because am i dont want to see more focus on dr. King. So he got a lot of criticism that taking away the spotlight from the movement and out a lot trying to money for slc and of course the was on him for but there was a point of contention well several really turn around tuesday quickly if we could talk about that because a lot of people well you tell them what it was and then the question was did Martin Luther king sell out . So what was the you can make an argument that dr. King out in that he was often criticized. He was in a very difficult position. Obviously, he is to conserve is for a lot of people and hes too radical for others. And hes often trying to all these interests. One of the things that i love about dr. King that that fascinates me is that hes arguably our greatest protest of all time and hes hates conflict. It from his from his childhood. I think maybe from being the middle child, also from having a domineering father. Hes hes afraid of making enemies. He doesnt want anybody be mad. And thats not usually great quality for a leader because you have to make hard decisions. So when it comes to Something Like turnaround his day, hes got the president and the attorney general saying you cant march across that bridge. And hes got john lewis and snick and, all these other people who people who have flown from all over the country taking busses and trains to join this protest. Were expecting to walk across that bridge with him in the lead. And king is trying to figure out what if we just go to the bridge and make a prayer and turn around. Hes trying to find a way to please everybody. And you cant. And i think some people view that as one of history. Basically he aborted the aborted the march and he went to a certain point and then right. And stopped and a lot of people felt like he he sold out. So what happened in chicago . I mean, it looked like the movement almost turned a made a diversion when he went north, when he went to chicago trying to to work civil rights there. What happened in chicago . Why wasnt he wellreceived king . You know, we often tell the story of king as if in last years of his life, he became more radical. And then he began to focus northern segregation and northern racism. I make the contention others have written this as well, that he was radical all along and. He was calling out northern racism all along just we werent listening because. He was making big headlines in places like birmingham and selma. And thats where the news was really focused. But as he traveled the country money all those years and as he went to los and chicago and San Francisco and he wasnt raising money there by saying, we need your help in birmingham, he was saying, youve got a problem here, too. You know you northern whites, who you know, im asking you for money, but you need to turn around and look at yourselves in the mirror because youre not much better. So he goes to chicago in 1966, moves into west side of chicago and north lawndale, an apartment there with coretta, and tries to make the point, tries to demonstrate, because one of the things that king realizes is that hes great at focusing media. Hes wherever goes, the cameras come. So if he to chicago, he can call attention to fact that Chicago Schools are just as segregated as birminghams chicagos housing especially. Its its low Income Housing is just as segregated as anything youll find in the south. So hes going to chicago to try to call attention that but hes that hes up against forces that hes not accustomed to dealing with that the black community, for one thing isnt as united. There are thousands thousands of black City Employees who are loyal to the mayor who wont with him, who wont join him, and his message becomes a lot less clear to the media what is it he really wants . So mayor daley in chicago basically offers king these compromises to make them go away and then doesnt fulfill any of the promises he made once king is gone. And thats why my hometown, chicago, is still probably the most segregated city in america. King proposed what he called a new emancipation proclamation. And it was formalized, as a matter of fact, on may 17th. Todays date in 1962, he presented it to president kennedy. But jfk didnt quite favor it. And i think that really hurt dr. Martin luther king. Do you think that might have had something to do with the trajectory of the movement . Theres just no question about it. King was really disappoint it with jfk, king felt like kennedy owed black community some action after. The closest election in American History that some say was swung by black voters and king felt like kennedy was afraid to act up because kennedy was already concerned about reelection and worried he might lose some of the black the some of the white vote in the south if he gave in too much, on civil rights. So king comes kennedy with this second emancipation proclamation on the anniversary, the first one. And kennedy basically ignores it. And i think. King was it was deeply disappointed by just about everything kennedy did until he was forced by some of kings protests to to take a more public stand and to really speak out. But king had to really put his feet to the fire to get that done. Well, speaking of putting his feet to the fire, the fbi, we got to talk that and. They were obviously out to destroy king. But someone said to king that he should bill the cat what does that mean when king criticized did your hoover do, edgar hoover then began this investigation, wiretaps on kings home phone, his office phone, the phones, Stanley Levison, Bayard Rustin, clarence jones, all wired fbi listening to endless, you know, most of his conversations and at one point, hoover tells some reporters king is the most dangerous man in america that king is shocked by this. And he doesnt know what to do. Should go to jail or hoover and again, he doesnt really like conflict. He suggests that we just maybe he should go and have a session with him and try to talk things through and make and Bayard Rustin recommends the opposite. He says, lets build a cat, lets just go after him. Lets make him an enemy. Make him a foe. Lets so he knows where, where, where were coming from and. He knows what and we know what hes up to. Lets lets lets attack. And king wont do it. King just, you know. Go ahead. No, no, no. Im sorry. I didnt mean to cut you off, but i but i have a bone to pick with the kennedys not personally, but Robert F Kennedy approved, the tapping, the wiretapping. Why would he do that . I mean, why would he do that . Well, for one thing, Taylor Hoover was a very powerful man. He had information on the kennedys, too. Thats what i thought. Thats exactly what robert talked about, that in his own oral history with kennedy library, he talks about the fact that. He didnt know if it was true, but he said that hoover had information on a Hotel Incident that he threatened to use against them. But i also think that in general, there was a culture of fear around communism that was part of it and fear of edgar hoover. So the kennedys kowtowed and gave in. Even though Robert Kennedy like to think of himself as a great supporter of the Civil Rights Movement and we could go on and talk about lbj because think in some ways he was worse. I think he encouraged it. He didnt just thats what i had a question. Is he a friend or foe because on one hand he was talking to Martin Luther king about being and then the other hand it was he didnt stop the fbi from doing things that were absolutely vicious, uncalled for. I think lbj is both a friend and a foe. Hes a friend and that he helps pass of the most important well bills in American History and and he cant do that without king but one of the really interesting things is that when you listen to the phone calls and lbj taped all of his phone calls and the tapes are anyone can listen to them on the internet now at the lbj library. And in the beginning when king first when lbj takes he calls king immediately reaches out to him and says were going to need to work together. And hes calling him. Martin theres a very warm, friendly conversation and over the next couple of years, hear that going cold. You hear him starting to call him dr. King, reverend king and the friendliness is gone. And thats because the while lbj is getting a steady stream. Sometimes one or two memos a week from directly from hoover to the president with the just tawdry gossip. Like theres no reason the president to know this stuff, except that clearly both men are enjoying keeping tabs on this man and mocking him for his for his for his weakness. And, of course, luther kings stand on vietnam did not make johnson very and that was really the the Tipping Point because the relationship already gone bad. And then when king starts speaking out on vietnam, thats when i believe kennedy really begins. Im sorry, lbj begins to see mlk as a foe, as this guy is out to hurt me now and when its the relationship is pretty much destroyed. Lots of turmoil. Brings me to the kings of mind, especially toward the end, Coretta Scott king and others were very concerned about kings about depression. There were signs of it in his early childhood, even. Was it true that he actually, for real, tried to commit twice when he was a teenager . Was that just acting . Well, he jumped out of a second story window twice. Now you tell me hes 13 years old. His grandmother had first been hurt. The first time he jumped. Second time was when his grandmother died. Is that a call for attention . It just a cry of agony. Is it a suicide attempt. Very hard to say. But it was clearly a very emotional act from someone who was deeply, deeply grieved. And all his life, he know he suffered emotionally and something that, you know, back then it was very difficult to talk about. Public figures never talked about their their Mental Health issues. But in a way, if you go back and read even the newspaper coverage, if you go back and read coretta is books, the are all there coretta calls it depression and when when martin king found out that he won the nobel peace prize, where was he . He was in the hospital. And when reporters came to interview him. So what are you doing in the hospital . He said, im being treated for exhaustion now. Then powerful. She felt the nobel prize made it even worse, though, because that just put more pressure on her. Thats right. The demands were even greater on them. She was worried about that. She that even after that, even in immediate aftermath of winning the prize she was she worried what that was going to do to the pressure on him and. Then the gallup polls started coming in 1964. He was the number four that my person in the world 1965 it slipped to fifth. 1966, he was dropped completely from the list. Im sure that hurt. And then mike wallace asked king if people were getting tired of the Civil Rights Movement. The New York Times said that, quote, the civil rights has collapsed what happened, what and how was king dealing with all of this. You know, as i said earlier, he was always too conservative for some and to radical for others. But as the Civil Rights Movement progressed. And as more aggressive voices began to be heard, Stokely Carmichael, malcolm x wright king had a hard time because felt like he was weak. And yet, you know, the thing that i think bothered him the most was that he, like even his friends and advisers, didnt understand him. And theres this phone call that again, we know because the fbi was recording it where hes talking to levison right after his speech about vietnam at riverside church, april 4th, 1967. And king has just delivered what i believe is his greatest speech. And its its his greatest speech because it brings together every thing hes been talking about his entire life. Everything the bible has taught him. Hes saying that america has a serious not just with racism, not just with poverty, not just with warfare but with all of these things and that we faced a moral collapse as a society if we didnt address it and if didnt if we werent true to beliefs when we speak of the truth in the bible, that we were destined fall apart, that we were we were doomed and his one of his best friends whos known for 12 years at this point, Stanley Johnson calls him the next day and says that a terrible speech. It wasnt you. It didnt sound like. And youre just going to cost us support among all the people who are helping us. Were never going to be able to get any access to the white house again. And king says, and we have this, you know, transcript of this. We exactly what he said. He says havent, you been listening to me all these years. Oh well, i might have made a politico mistake in giving that speech, but i did not make a moral mistake in giving that speech. And here he is, Martin Luther king jr. And still people questioning him and questioning his morality, his vision. Earlier we mentioned how he said that his purpose was to prophesies prophesies. Boy, he prophesized own death many times belafonte tells us stories about a nervous tic. You want to tell that one . Yeah. You know belafonte spent like quality time, personal time. Hes one of the few people who i interviewed who i felt stopped to ask dr. King, how he was doing. How are you holding up . You know, would make time just for the two of them to hang out, have some quiet time together. There were so many demands on him and everybody wanted something. But belafonte was rich and famous. He wanted to help. He didnt. And he said at one point he noticed that martin, he called him, had a little tic like a little a little almost like a hiccup. You couldnt hear unless you were alone in the room with him. It was like a constant swallowing, and it went on months, maybe years. And then one day when belafonte saw him again, dr. King said, it was gone. Belafonte noticed it was he said, martin, what happened to your tic . Said, i cured both. I said how do you cure it . So i made peace with death. Happy man who was making a movie about Martin Luther king asked him how should the movie end . And he said do you remember me getting killed . Yeah, thats what he told ap. Getting killed . Not me dying. Me getting killed. He knew. I mean, his home had been bombed hed been and had been shot had he been stabbed in the chest, it was not. And after king, after kennedys assassination, he turned to Coretta Scott king and said, this is to happen to me. Ive been this mean got over here is telling me to it up. So but there are a few things that i you take your time all night. Toward the end we kind of mentioned he started to get more radical starting sell more like malcolm x as a matter fact talking about reconstruction of an entire American Society and reparation. Didnt even talk about kings view of what reparations could be or would be in this country. We forget. And again, i about how we teach. I have a dream. Starting in kindergarten, we the first half of that speech were dr. King said america had made a broken promise to black people and that it was time to pay up. He talked about reparation, as he said, that you cannot calculate the amount of income this country generated has been generated from slavery and sharecropping. And it is and it would be fairly simple to come up with the calculation that paid back at least some of that. And he talked about guaranteed income for people, guaranteed jobs, things that were still talking about today, prophesized soon after he after king died. Richard nixon did propose guaranteed income. So it was not was not pie in the sky. It was not crazy liberal, you know, socialist propaganda. It was it was realistic. And it still is realistic after chicago. King felt that, quote, most americans are unconscious racist. Do you agree with it then and now . Yeah yeah. Continuing kings legacy, are we going to be able to do it or it will have to be adapted or changed in some way . Is the king relevant today as he was 60 years ago . I think is as relevant, if not more. And i think that there are ways to make his legacy come to life. But its only if we actually study the mans words, read his not just the familiar speeches that are on television. We dont teach anything but letter. Birmingham jail and most public schools. And a letter from birmingham jail is terrific. Its. But. But king had a lot more to say. And his books are just not widely distributed, not widely taught. I went to the washington, d. C. Monument, didnt have any of his books for sale. We need words and we need to discuss kings life again and not just turn them into a monument and not just celebrate them on the holiday once a year near the conclusion of your book spoke at the mass. You spoke about National Monument in washington, d. C. And you surmised that quote in halloween. King as in hallowed be thy name and halloween. King we have hallowed hallowed him made him empty, hallowed what you better explain that. When we celebrate, you know, mattress sales, the kings birthday, you know. We talk we we talk. I have a dream as if its, you know, Just Holding Hands as if, you know, black children, white children could play together. That would be enough. King was so complicated. He was so brave. He was asking us to reconsider the very of our society. And he got us to a point where it seemed like maybe we were ready to think about changing who we were. Maybe we were at a point where. And i think, you know, its crystal like after the march on washington that americans are really willing to rethink things. And weve backed away from that. Weve hollowed him out to the extent that we we dont really embrace his anymore. And thats what meant by that. You close your book with some final words from king. It reads, quote, our very survival depends on our ability to stay awake, to adjust to new ideas, to remain vigilant and face the challenge change. What found interesting about this was his of the word awake and 1963 a grocery a black grocery worker who was enthused by kings leadership said quote, the people are now not afraid. We have woke up. Wow. Jonathan, can stay awake in this. Woke culture that we have today. We have to. What choice we have. Because you know the way the walk is defined in the dictionary as an excessive political correctness. Im not playing with that definition. All right. All right. Okay. Good. Well, as usual, its been a pleasure been to see so much of this system system. I think we did okay by having valerie do the press. And honestly, i could listen to them talk night long, but i want to give you an opportune really to ask jonathan some questions and if youll wait. Yeah. Raise your hand and wait for trey to around with the microphone. Right. Right over here in the middle. Just. The king cooperate with you on this book. You never mentioned their name. Other than coretta. This whole evening. Big question. I know its a fair question. The king children did not want to do interviews. They did not respond to my requests. Some of the nieces and nephews did speak to me, and i the. Thats thats the best i could do in this case. The king children did not did not give me interviews. I have. Hi. Thank you so much for interview tonight. Mrs. Coretta king wanted to make sure that young people got to understand the words of her husband. In 1999, she asked a group of us to make sure that the children arrived at the king center or and they represented her husbands words. When i think about montgomery, rosa parks, december 1st, 1955. That moment king emerges as the leader. How is it in your opinion . Because i did hear the word emerge. How you feel . As if at that moment they felt. Lets go get that young preacher at dexter avenue baptist. He doesnt know any better. All right. I want you to address and then also second lee. It is to see king kneeled and turn around and, not cross the Edmund Pettus bridge. It was tough because those diverse clergy who flew in reeb and james reeb and lee jackson and luisa viola lewis, they lost their lives. But dr. Kings life not in vain. So do we. How do we take those moments where we say, lets at our leader as as courageous but human . One december 1st, 1955. And then at that bridge where king said he knelt, but he had to turn around. So the first question, why emerged at that moment, why he was. Youre right. He was chosen in part. He was new in town and he hadnt made enemies yet. And there were other leaders who had been a while, and they worried that if they chose one of those leaders, the would resist cooperate. So king because he was new in town because he had a reputation for being a great speaker was asked to be the spokesman of the movement. At first he was not asked to be the the president of the montgomery improvement association. He but when he found his voice, when when the crowds responded to him in that way, it became clear that he had the power. The potential to lead. So i would say that he responded to that not knowing what he was getting into he was not looking to become a leader of anything. He had just turned down an invitation from naacp chapter in alabama because he had a lot on his plate, you know, a new baby and a doctoral dissertation and a new church that he was still getting to know. So not looking to leave, but he felt called. And once he started leading, he felt compelled in part, of course, by the voice of god, which literally, he said came to him, but also by the voices of those people who called to him when he when he preached and who became his his fervent. And as for moment, when he knelt and did not satisfy those followers in the same. I think its just a reminder that he was human, that he was flawed and he had moments of doubt. And that was a moment of doubt. And, you know, levison, Stanley Levinson to him once when when dr. King was talking about, you know, his frailties and, some of the rumors that were going around and so forth and he said to dr. King, you do not have to be a perfect. You just have to be a perfect leader. I was like, well, and i would argue that if you want to be a perfect leader, that you are the best leader you can be and the best man. Good point. Good point. Good point. Yeah. Was there a particular information or fact that led you to raise your esteem of dr. King even more in your research . And if you dont mind me asking this, i loved luckiest man and what led you to write about lou gehrig. Okay. The first question i can sit here all night and give you hundreds of examples of things that king did small things that he did that inspired me. The way he treated he remained humble. He would spend time with people who needed attention. He was still the pastor to his in atlanta and in even as he became famous. But i think the big thing that inspired me more than anything else is that this man did not have to keep going after hed shot at and his had been bombed and stabbed in the chest. And after the fbi began coming down on him over over again, he had moments where he could have hit pause. He could have taken a year off and gone on sabbatical and written a book. But he felt that he had he was called by god, he and and he not only going, he doubled down. He became more courageous. It would have been easy just to stick to voting and keep working on where he had some success. But no, he goes to chicago. He goes to los angeles. He speaks out the vietnam war. That kind of moral to me is, you know, beyond inspiring. And it just spending that time thinking about the choices he made, you know, forever changed me. And ill talk to you afterwards about lou gehrig because my brain just wont go there right now. Thanks. Again. Right. I often think about what america we would have without the loss, the early loss of lincoln, kennedy and Martin Luther king. Could you speak to the moment that was cut off after his death . You know something that, a lot of black activists after the assassination is that we kill our prophets in america and. We ought to do a study on the effects of assassination on American History. Im not an expert, but when you think about the ideas were lost, we think about the courage that was lost and and why know we blame the you know, we can talk all day about conspiracy theories, but its clear that and this is something Harry Belafonte preached all the way to the end that we dont like radicals in this country. Were uncomfortable with radicals even though were a country born of revolution. We dont teach radicalism in our schools we somehow have managed to portray it as a bad thing. And look how many of our radicals have been eliminated because of that because weve created that culture. I think. Okay, lets do right here in the middle. Just a second. Lets go to mike. You. Hi. Thank you very much for coming to speak with us this evening. I am the generation of elementary schoolers you talked about. I grew up watching my friend martin and up with this very idealized version of Martin Luther king and being taught that the Civil Rights Movement was over, that equality had been achieved. We elected a black president. As we see, the Civil Rights Movement has not ended at just transformed. Its taken on different focuses. Its shifted away from segregation and towards Police Brutality to justice. My question you is what impact you see that has lasted across the decades since Martin Luther kings death that is embodied in the Civil Rights Movement today, you i think that and id love to hear your response to that question, too. But i think that whats the thread that unifies the Civil Rights Movement and always has abolition to is among other things black true justice. The ideas that king talked in the bible that we are all made in the image of god and that only man has invented these arbitrary divisions and that quest for dignity is through line. And its whether youre talking Police Brutality, whether you talk about Voting Rights then or now, Voting Rights. Its about dignity. If were peaceful teaching people, if were teaching people to understand, apply and equality, then were were you know, were doing the right thing. And but it doesnt have to it shouldnt be so complicated. What would you say . Unfortunately, i did not hear the second part of your question or your statement. And so i trust that he gave the right answer. You would have been better at that one. Harder for his jonathan. Valerie, could you all spend a moment on on the aftermath of dr. King in terms of the people he trained and house is influence continued whether it was andy young as mayor or Maynard Jackson john lewis. He had a to me his genius was as a manager of these very strong personalities ranging from Stokely Carmichael to john lewis to the women who complained about him. But he gifted with a sense of, leadership and commitment to the struggle that went on after his demise. People talk about did this spiraling down of sclc and traditional civil rights organizations but the world is different because of andrew young. The world was different because of being a jackson. Needless to say, the world in which john lewis and he has a constellation of people what the fauntroy Whitey Walker Fred Shuttlesworth people sprinkled across the south and the rest of the united states. And i think sometimes when we write these biographies of dr. Not just because ive read it, but but i think what happens is that he all this happened and no one says no. In fact, his students his pupils, his acolytes went on to do even more. So in your conversation with his compatriots and and all the folks that youre interviewed, did any of this ever come out . Well, the actions speak for themselves. Those people that you mentioned, you know, went on do great things. And i would include Coretta Scott king on that list, of course. But what about you . Whats your take on that . How did the the heirs or the people who inherited the the movement, how did they. I think inspired by king. I think those who were paying attention were inspired. And jena have to differ with your word manage because i dont think i dont they dr. King could manage any of those. What he did do was influence them now and at most told me one time he said, dr. King used to say, deal with you guys like managing a herd of well well, you cant do that. Can you so but it puts the influences, the lasting influences and think that comes from speaking truth because the truth will outlast a lot of things. It might take a long time to get back to that path, but eventually it will and people like benjamin, he may, made such a great influence on maynard that still quoting Benjamin Mays, you know, so i think the the trickle down the trickle down influence, respect, dignity and a search for truth and a love mankind is all of those acolytes, as you said, got from from dr. Martin luther king. And i just pray that they keep on keeping on. Yeah. You know, and that your children, you know and my daughters, you know, will be able to reflect it also. And i think im going to take the privilege of the last question and i was just thinking about the amount detail you have your book some it flattering some of it not flattering. And i wonder do think that makes him a person it makes something makes someone that we can all relate to hes not just a myth. Hes a person like you and i and perhaps gives us hope that we all have the opportunity to do the kinds of things that hes done. I think thats essential. And its, you know, central to what i was to do with this book. I have a paragraph early on in the book where i say, you know, he chewed fingernails. He had a dog named topsy. He couldnt save his was too sensitive. So at the same time as we discussed he was not a progressive in every way. He had a heart in a blind when it came to women in roles of leadership. Lets lets accept the fact that he human lets look at and and again those Little Details thats just that brings him to life. Thats how i feel. I want you to read this book and feel like you got to spend some time with him. You got to know him better. And i you to feel the loss that we we all should feel that this man was only with us for 39 years and that we as a country could take care of him and that we didnt, you know, we deserved he deserved better. We deserve better. And you can only really feel that kind of pain. I think if you if you love him when you read the book. And i hope thats you mentioned a story, but that you told about gregory, i believe it was was it gregory that said he was the reason you should not miss. It . It was about gregory saying that a movie had been made about Martin Luther king, which is which made him a real hero. He said to me. Jesus was real. Okay, here we go. All right. But we dont really we cant really prove it, right . We can prove Martin Luther king was real because. We were here. I mean, i met him and. We have him on film. We have him on tape. No matter what happens, no matter how many hundreds of years from now, no ones going to be able to deny that Martin Luther king was real. But i would argue if we go too far, in making him into a mythological figure, you lose sight of how real he was. And gregory knew it. People from atlanta who are still with us today, who knew could feel his reality and we just need to keep him alive in that way. Right. Good. Very good. Thank you. Ieach. Week American History tvs america brings you archival that help provide context for todays Public Affairs issues. Next from july 15, 1963. Reverend Martin King Jr is interviewed b