Transcripts For CSPAN3 Presidential Debates 1992 Presidential Debate - Bush V. Clinton V. Perot 20240712

Now, president bush. About 30 seconds we will be going on the air. In about 30 seconds we will be going on the air. Good evening, welcome to the first of three debates among the major candidates for president of the United States, sponsored by the commission on president ial debates. The candidates are independent candidate ross perot, governor bill clinton, the democratic nominee, and president george bush, republican nominee. I am jim lehrer and i will be the moderator for this 98 minute event, taking place before an audience here in the Athletic Complex on the campus of Washington University in st. Louis, missouri. Three journalists will be asking questions tonight. They are john mack she of the boston globe, and compton, and sandra van ocher. A format agreed to by representatives of the clinton and bush campaigns. That agreement contains no restrictions on the content or subject matter of the questions. Each candidate will have up to two minutes for a closing statement. The order of those, as well as the questioning, was determined by a drawing. To mr. St question goes perrault. He will have two minutes to answer, followed by rebuttals from governor clinton and president bush. Gentlemen, good evening. Is whatt topic tonight separates each of you from the other. Mr. Perrault, what do you believe tonight is the single most important separating issue of this campaign . Perrault the principal issue that separates me is that 9. 5 Million People came together on their own to put me on the ballot. I was not put on the ballot by either of the two parties or by any pack money, for them obvious money, or special interest money. This movement came from the people. This is the way the framers of the constitution intended the const the government to be. Coming from the people. Over time we have developed a government that comes at the people, from the top down, where the people are more or less treated as objects to be programmed during the campaign with commercials and fear messages, personal attacks and things of that nature. The thing that separates my candidacy and makes it unique is that this came from millions of people in 50 states all over this country who wanted a candidate that works along for nobody but them. Therento this race is servant and i belong to them. So, this comes from the people. Clinton, one minute response. Governor clinton the most important distinction is that i represent a real hope for change. A departure from trickledown economics, tax and spend economics to invest in growth. Before i can do that i must challenge the American People to change and they must decide. Tonight i say to the president , mr. Bush, for 12 years you have had it your way. You have had your chance and it didnt work. Its time to change. I want to bring the change to the American People. But we must all decide first if we have the courage to change in the hope for a better tomorrow. President bush, one minute response. President bush one thing that distinguishes this experience and dramatically changes the world, i will talk about that later, but the changes are mindboggling for world peace. People going to bed at night without fear of nuclear war. Change for the sake of change isnt enough. We saw that message in the late 19 seven with a lot of that change and the misery index went through the roof. My Economic Program is the kind of change we want in the way we are going to get it done is have a brandnew congress, a lot of it thrown out because of the candles, but i will sit down with democrats and republicans alike and work on my agenda for american renewal. But i think it is experience at this level. Governor clinton, you have two minutes on the question of experience. He says thats what distinguishes him from the other two of you. Clinton experience counts, but its not everything. Value, judgment, and my record in my state count for something. I have worked hard to create good jobs and educate people. My state now ranks first in the country and job growth this year. Fourth in crumb growth. Income growth. Third and economic performance. That is because we believe in investing in education and the job. We have to change in this country. You know, my wife hillary gave me a book a year ago in which the author defined insanity as doing the same old thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have got to have the courage to change. Gotten a lot of good experience in dealing with ordinary people over the last year, month. I have touched the lives of more people, seen more heartbreak and hope, more pain and promise than anyone else who has run for president this year. The American People deserve better than they are getting. Mr. Reaganush and have been in, personal income has dropped while people have worked harder. We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. Its a new world after the cold war and what works in the new world is not trickledown or government for the benefit of the privileged, not tax and spend, but a commitment to invest in american jobs and education, controlling American Health care costs, bringing the American People together, thats what works. You can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. Mine is rooted in the real life of people and it will bring real results. Real 1nt bush, one you have a minute to respond. Bush i want to accurately quote the governor, i think he said that the country is coming apart at the seams. Now, i know that the only way he can win is to make everybody believe that the economy is worse than it is, but this country is not coming apart at the seams for heavens sakes. We are, in spite of the economic problems, the most the most respected economy around the world. Many would trade for it. We have been caught up in a global slowdown. We can do much better and we shouldnt try to convince the American People that america is a country coming apart at the seams. I would hate to be running for president and think that the only way i could win would be to convince everybody how horrible things are. Yes, there are big problems. Yes, people are hurting. But i believe that the agenda for american renewal is the answer to do it and i believe we can get it done now, because we will have a whole brandnew bunch of people in the congress that will have to listen to the same American People im listening to. Mr. Perrault, response . Pro they have got a point. I dont have experience in running up that where no one takes responsibility and blames everyone else. I dont have any experience in the industrialized world and the most crimeridden society of the industrialized world, but i do have a lot of experience in getting things done. If we are at a point in history where we stop talking about it and do it, ive got a lot of experience in making Solutions Work and moving onto the next. A lot of experience not taking 10 years to solve the problems. If its time for action, i have the experience that counts. If its more time for gridlock and fingerpointing, youve got the wrong man. President bush, are there important issues of character separating you from these other two men . X the American People should be the judge of that. The American People should be the judge of that. Character is an important question. The other day i was accused of being like joe mccarthy because i questioned put it this way, i think its wrong to demonstrate against your own country or organize demonstrations against her own country on foreign soil. I just think its wrong. Maybe they say it is youthful indiscretion. I was 19 or 20, flying off of an Aircraft Carrier and it shaped me to be the commanderinchief of the armed forces and im sorry but demonstrating, its not a question of patriotism, its a question of character and judgment. Bill has gotten on me about read my lips. When i make a mistake i will admit it. But he has not admitted to mistakes and i find it impossible to understand how an american can demonstrate against his own country in a foreign land, organizing demonstrations against it when young men are kidsprisoner in hanoi, kidnapped and drafted. Some say im oldfashioned. Maybe i am, but i dont think its right. Whether it is character or judgment, whatever it is, i have a big difference here on the issue. We will have to see how it plays out, but i, i couldnt do that and i dont think most americans could do that. They also well, it was a long time ago. I admit it, i made a terrible mistake. How can you be commanderinchief of the armed forces and have some kids say when you have to make a tough decision as i did in panama or kuwait, have a kid jump up and say im not going to go, the commanderinchief was organizing demonstrations healthways around the world halfway around the world in another era. There are differences. Thats one area where we have a difference. I dont know if people talk about that across. Have onerrault, you minute. Mr. Perrault the American People make their own decisions on character. At a time when we have work to do and we need action, i think they need to clearly understand the backgrounds of each person. The press can play a huge role in making sure that the backgrounds are clearly presented in an objective way. Then make a decision. Certainly the people in the white house should have the character to be there. But i think it is very important to measure when and where things occur. If they occur when you are a young person in your formative years or if you are a senior official in the federal government. When you are a senior official in the federal Government Spending billions in taxpayer money and you are a mature individual that makes a mistake, thats on you. Make it as a young man, time passes. I would say look at all three of us and decide who you think will do the job. Pick that person in november. As i have said before, the party is over and its time for the cleanup crew. To have change. People that never take responsibility for anything, what happens on their watch, the people in charge, the time is up. Time is up. Mr. Perrault more later. Have oneor linton, you minute. Governor clinton ross gave a good answer, but i have to respond directly to mr. Bush. You questioned my patriotism. You attacked me for going to russia in 1970 when other over 50,000 americans did. I honor your service in world war ii. I honor mr. Perraults service in uniform and the service of every man and woman who ever served, including your chairman of the georgia joint chiefs who is supporting me. When joe mccarthy went around this country attacking peoples patriotism, he was wrong, he was wrong. The senator from connecticut stood up to him named prescott bush. Your father was right to stand up to joe mccarthy and you were wrong to attack my patriotism. I was opposed to the war but i love my country and we need a president who will bring this country together and not divide it. We have had enough division and i want to lead a unified country. [applause] andhe question of taxes spending, governor clinton, a two minute answer please. Governor clinton, can you lock in a level here tonight on where middle income families can be guaranteed a tax cut or at the very least, at what income level they can be guaranteed no tax increase . My tax increase triggers at 200,000 dollars and above. People in the 1980s had their incomes go up while their taxes went down. Middleclass people, defined as people with income of 200,000 in down, saw their income go down while their taxes went up in the reaganbush years because of six increases in the payroll taxes. That is where my income limit would trigger. No tax increases below 200 . Not a notwithstanding my opponent, it triggers with family incomes at 200000 and above and we want to give modest middleclass tax relief to restore fairness to those with families and incomes of under 60,000. In addition to that the money that i raised from up her income people, and from asking Foreign Corporations just pay the same income on their income earned in america that american operations be used to give the incomes back. I want to give people incentives on the tax credits like they had in the early 60s to get the industry moving again. Research Development Tax credits, low Income Housing tax credits. New business expansion. Acrosstheboard tax cuts for nothing. Theou create american jobs oldfashioned way, i would like to create more millionaires than were created under bush and reagan, but i dont want years with no growth in the private sector. That has what happened. We are down 35,000 jobs in the private sector. We need to invest and grow, thats what i want to do. President bush, one minute. President bush i didnt question the mans patriotism, i questioned his judgment and character. Let him explain what he did in moscow. Ist i dont accept demonstrating and organizing demonstrations in a foreign country when your country is at war. Im sorry, i cannot accept that. In terms of this went on taxes, spell out the different biggest difference between us. I dont believe we need to go back to the mondale proposals and a dukakis reposes of tax and spend. Governor clinton says 200,000, but he also says he wants to raise 150 billion. Taxing people that much wont get you 100 and 50 billion. Adding in his other spending proposals you saw it to the workingmen. The old adage that they give to soak the rich . Soak the rich . It always ends up being the poor cabdriver or workingman that pays the bill. I just have a different approach. I believe the way to get the deficit down is to control the growth of mandatory Spending Programs and not raise taxes on the American People. Again, a big difference there. Mr. Perrault, one minute. Mr. Ross perot right now we have a flat to deteriorating job base going to minimumwage jobs. We have got to really rebuild the job base. Thats going to take money for infrastructure and investment to do that. Foreign competitors are doing it and we are not. We cannot pay off the 4 trillion debt. With the high paying jobs in this country without the revenue, we will go through shared sacrifice. Created a mess and dont have much to show for it and have got to fix it. Thats about all i can say in a minute. Ok. Next question goes to president bush for a two minute answer and it will be asked by sandy van ocher. The secretary of the army said that he had no plans to abide by the congressional mandate to cut u. S. Forces in by the end of september 1996. Now, why almost 50 years after the end of world war ii, with the total collapse of the soviet union should american taxpayers be taxed to support armies in europe when the europeans have plenty of money to do it for themselves . Pres. Bush thats a good question. The answer is that for 40 years we kept to the piste. If you look at the costs of not keeping it in europe, it would be exorbitant. We have reduced the number of troops deployed and going to be deployed. The reason we can do that is because of the fantastic success in winning the cold war. We never would have got there if we went for the nuclear crowd or if we had listened to those who wanted to cut defense spending. Its important that the United States stay in europe and continue to guarantee the piece. We simply cannot pull back. Now, when anybody has a Spending Program they want us to spend on at home, i say cut money out of the defense department. I will accept and have accepted the recommendations of two proven leaders, power and dick cheney. They feel that the levels we are operating at and the production i have proposed are proper and i dont think we should go back to the isolation days and start blaming foreigners. We are the sole remaining superpower and we should be that and we have a certain disproportionate responsibility. I would ask the American People to understand that if we make imprudent cuts, if we go too far, we risk of the piece and i dont want to do that. Ive seen what its like to be at war. I dont want to see has make reckless cuts. Because of our programs we have been able to significantly cut defense spending. But lets not cut into the muscle and our insurance policy, participation of American Forces in nato, the greatest peacekeeping organization ever today. Along,is still bubbling even though it is going the route of democracy. We are there and i think that this insurance policy is necessary. I think it goes with world leadership. I think the levels we have developed are just about right. , mr. Perrault mr. Perot one minute, please. Mr. Perot if im poor and youre rich, and i can get you to defend me, thats good. The japanese spend around 30 million. Spend 1 trillion Building Infrastructure over the next 10 years. Easy to do if you only have to pick up a 30 billion to to defend your country. The European Community is in a position to pay more than they have in the past. When they couldnt, they should have. Now that they can, they should. We seem to have a desire to stay over there and control it. They dont want us to control it, candidly. I think it is very important for them to assume more of the burden and for us to bring the money back here and rebuild our infrastructure. We can only be a superpower if we are an economic superpower and we will only be an economic superpower if we have a growing, expanding job base. Governor clinton, one minute, sir. Gov. Clinton i agree with the general statement that mr. Bush made. I disagree that we need 150,000 troops in europe. There are certainly dangers there. Certainly other trouble spots in the world closer to europe than to the United States. Two former defense secretarys issued a report saying that 100,000 or slightly fewer troops would be enough. Including mr. Carlucci. Many military experts i spoke to on this agreed. We are going to have to spend more money in the future on military technology and greater airplane. The v 22 we are going to have to do some things that are quite costly and i simply dont think we can afford to keep 100 and 50,000 troops in europe given how much the red army under the control of russia has cut the arms control agreement that was concluded between mr. Bush and mr. Yeltsin, something i have applauded. I dont think we need 100 and 50,000 troops. Mr. Bush talked about taxes. He didnt tell you that he cuted a middleclass tax paid for by raising taxes on the wealthy. We go now to mr. Perot for a twominute question that will be asked by john massey. You talked about sharing the pain and fairness. As part of your plan to address the federal deficit, you have suggested . 50 a gallon tax on gasoline over five years. Why punish the middleclass consumer . . 10 per year cumulative gets to . 50 at the end of the fifth year. I think punish is the wrong word. I didnt create this problem, we are trying to solve it. If you study the International Competitors, some of them collect up to three dollars 50 cents per gallon on taxes and they use the money to build infrastructure and create jobs. We collect . 35 and we dont have it to spend. I know its not popular and i understand the nature of your question, but the people who will be helped the most by it are the working people who will get the jobs created under this tax. Why do we have to do it . Because we have so mismanaged our country over the years and it is now time to pay the fiddler. If we dont, we will be spending our childrens money. We have spent 4 trillion worth. An incredible number of young people are active in supporting my efforts because they are deeply concerned that we have taken the American Dream from them. Its fitting that we are on the campus of university tonight. These young people when they get out of this Wonderful University will have difficulty finding a job. Pass on theto American Dream to them. If theres a fairer way, im all ears. Hah. [laughter] see, let me make it very clear, people dont have the stomach to fix these problems. Its a good time to face it in november. If they do, they will have heard the harsh reality of what we have to do. You haveor clinton, one minute, sir. Gov. Clinton i think that mr. Perot has confronted the deficit issue but it is important to point out we have two deficits in america, not one. We have the budget deficit in the federal government but we also have an investment, jobs, income deficit. People are working harder for less money than they were working earning 10 years ago. 1600 in a drop in average income in the last two years. The problem i have with the perot prescription say that if you cut it this much this quick, it will increase unemployment and slow down the economy. That is why i think do it that clean. We have a disciplined reduction of 50 over the next four years, but first getting the incentive to invest, put the American People back to work. We have got to invest and grow. Economists and executives have endorsed this approach because it offers the best hope to get our income rising instead of falling. President bush one minute. Pres. Bush the question is on fairness and i disagree with mr. Perot, i dont get is fair for . 50 a gallon over how many years of people who have to drive for a living, people that go long distances. I dont think we need to do it. Fundamental difference, i agree with what hes talking about with getting the spending down and the discipline, though i think we should totally exempt Social Security. Hes talking tough medicine and i think thats good but i disagree with the tax and spend for law i disagree with the taxandspend philosophy. You see, i dont think we need to tax more and spend more, and then say thats going to make the problem better. And im afraid thats what i think im hearing from governor clinton. I believe what you need to do is some of what ross is talking about control the growth of mandatory spending and get taxes down. Hes mentioned some ways to do it, and i agree with those. Ive been talking about getting a Capital Gains cut forever, and his friends in congress have been telling me thats a tax break for the rich. It would stimulate investment. Im for an investment tax allowance. Im for a tax break for firsttime homebuyers. And with this new congress coming in, gridlock will be gone, and ill sit down with them and say lets get this done. But i do not want to go the taxandspend route. Jim lehrer all right, lets move on now to the subject of jobs. The first question goes to president bush for two minutes, and john will ask that question. John mashek mr. President , last month you came to st. Louis to announce a very lucrative contract for Mcdonnell Douglas to build f15s for saudi arabia. In todays postdispatch, a retired saleswoman, a 75yearold woman named marjorie roberts, asked if she could ask a question of the candidates. She said she wanted to register her concern about the lack of a plan to convert our defenseoriented industries into other purposes. How would you answer her. President bush i assume she was supportive of the decision on Mcdonnell Douglas, i assume she was supporting me on the decision to sell those airplanes. I think it is a good decision. Took a little heat for it, but i think it was the correct decision to do. And we worked it out, and indeed were moving forward all around the world in a much more peaceful way. So that one we came away with in creating jobs for the American People. I would simply say to her, look, take a look at what the president has proposed on job retraining. When you cut back on defense spending, some people are going to be thrown out of work. If you throw another 50,000 kids on the street because of cutting recklessly in troop levels, youre going to put a lot more out of work. I would say to them, look at the job retraining programs that were proposing. Therein is the best answer to her. And another one is stimulate investment and savings. I mean, weve got big economic problems, but we are not coming apart at the seams; were ready for a recovery. With Interest Rates down and inflation down, the cruelest tax of all, caught up in a global slowdown right now, that that but that will change if you go with the programs ive talked about and if you help with job retraining and education. I am a Firm Believer that our america 2000 education problem is the answer. A little longer run, its going to take awhile to educate. But it is a good program. So her best help for short term is job retraining, if she was thrown out of work at a defense plant. But tell her its not all that gloomy. We are the United States. We faced tough problems before. Look at the misery index when the democrats had both the white house and the congress. It was just right through the roof. Now, we can do better. And the way to do better is not to tax and spend but to retrain, get that control of the mandatory Spending Programs. Im much more optimistic about this country than some. [applause] jim lehrer mr. Perot . Mr. Perot, you have one minute, sir. Mr. Perot Defense Industries are going to have to convert to civilian industries. Many of them are. And the sooner they start, the sooner theyll finish. And there will be a significant transition. And its very important that we not continue to let our Industrial Base deteriorate. We had someone who im sure regrets said it in the president s staff said he didnt care whether we made potato chips or computer chips. Well, anybody that thinks about it cares a great deal. Number one, you make more making computer chips than potato chips. And number two, 19 out of 20 computer chips that we have in this country now come from japan. Weve given away whole industries. So as we phase these industries over, theres a whole of intellectual talent in these industries. A lot of these people in industries can be converted to the industries of tomorrow. And thats where the highpaying jobs are. We need to have a very carefully thought through phaseover. Now, see, we practice 19th century capitalism. The rest of the world practices 21st century capitalism. I cant handle that in a minute, but i hope we can get back into it later. In the rest of the world, the countries and the businesses would be working together to make this transition in an intelligent way. Jim lehrer governor clinton, you have one minute, sir. Clinton we must have a transition plan to plan to convert from a defense to a domestic economy. No other nation would have cut defense as much as we already have without that. There are 200,000 people unemployed in california alone because we have cut defense without planning to retrain them and to reinvest in the technologies of the future here at home. That is what i want to do. This Administration May say they have a plan, but the truth is they have not even released all the money, the paltry sum of money, that congress appropriated. I want to take every dollar by which we reduce defense and reinvest it in technologies for the 21st century, in new transportation, in communication, in environmental cleanup technologies. Lets put the American People to work, and lets build the kind of hightech, highwage, highgrowth economy that the American People deserve. Jim lehrer all right. the next question goes to mr. Perot for a twominute answer. It will be asked by ann. Ann . Ann compton mr. Perot, you talked a minute ago about rebuilding the job base. But is it true what governor clinton just said, that that means that unemployment will increase, that it will slow the economy . And how would you specifically use the powers of the presidency to get more people back into good jobs immediately . Mr. Perot step one, the American People send me up there, the day after election, i will get with the congressional we wont even wait till inauguration, and ill ask the president to help and ill ask his staff to help me. And we will start putting together teams to put together to take all the plans that exist and do something with them. Please understand. There are great plans lying all over washington nobody ever executes. Its like having a blueprint for a house you never built. You dont have anywhere to sleep. Now, our challenge is to take these things, do something with them. Step one, we want to put america back to work, clean up the Small Business problem, have one task force at work on that. The second, youve got your Big Companies that are in trouble, including the Defense Industries, have another one on that. Have a third task force on new industries of the future to make sure we nail those for our country and they dont wind up in europe and asia. Convert from 19th to 21st century capitalism. See, we have an adversarial relationship between government and business. Our International Competitors that are cleaning our plate have an intelligent relationship between government and business, and a supportive relationship. Then have another task force on crime because, next to jobs, our people are concerned about their safety. Health care, schools. On the debt and deficit. One and finally in that 90day period before the inauguration, put together the framework for the town hall and give the American People a christmas present. Show them by christmas the first cut at these plans. By the Time Congress comes into session to go to work, have those plans ready to go in front of congress. Then get off to a flying start in 93 to execute these plans. Now, there are people in this room and people on this stage whove been in meetings when i would sit there and say, is this the one were going to talk about or do something about . Well, obviously, my orientation is lets go do it. Now, put together your plans by christmas, be ready to go when congress goes, nail these things. Small business, you have got to have capital, youve got to credit, and many of them need mentors or coaches. And we can create more jobs there in a hurry than any other place. Jim lehrer governor clinton, one minute. [applause] president clinton this country desperately needs a jobs program, and my First Priority would be to pass a jobs program, to introduce it on the first day i was inaugurated. I would meet with the leaders of the congress, with all the newly elected members of the congress , and as many others with whom i could meet between the time of the election and the inauguration, and we would present a jobs program. Then we would present a plan to control Health Care Costs and phase in Health Care Coverage for all americans. Until we control Health Care Costs, were not going to control the deficit. It is the number one culprit. But first, we must have an aggressive jobs program. I live in a state where manufacturing job growth has far outpaced the nation in the last few years, where we have created more private sector jobs since mr. Bush has been president than have been created in the entire rest of the country, where mr. Bushs labor secretary said the job growth has been enormous. Weve done it in arkansas. Give me a chance to create these kind of jobs in america. We can do it. I know we can. [applause] jim lehrer president bush, one minute. President bush weve got the plan announced for what we can do for Small Business. Ive already put forward things thatll get this country working fast, some of which have been echoed here tonight. Investment tax allowance, Capital Gains reduction, more on research and development, tax credit for firsttime home buyers. What im going to do is say to jim baker when this campaign is over, all right, lets sit down now, you do in Domestic Affairs what youve done in Foreign Affairs, be kind of the economic coordinator of all the domestic side of the house, and that includes all the economic side, all the training side, and bring this program together. Were going to have a new congress, and were going to say to them, youve listened to the voters the way we have. Nobody wants gridlock anymore, and so lets get the program through. And i believe itll work because, as ross said, we got the plans. The plans are all over washington. And ive put ours together in something called the agenda for american renewal, and it makes sense, its sensible, it creates jobs, it gets to the base of the kind of jobs we need. And so, ill just be asking for support to get that put into effect. Jim lehrer all right. The next question goes to governor clinton for two minutes. It will be asked by sandy. Sander vanocur governor clinton, when a president running for the first time gets into the office and wants to do something about the economy, he finds in washington theres a person who has much more power over the economy than he does the chairman of the Federal Reserve board, accountable to no one. That being the case, would you go along with proposals made by treasury secretary james brady and congressman lee hamilton to make the Federal Reserve Board Chairman somehow more accountable to elected officials . Senator clinton well, let me say that i think that we might ought to review the terms, the way it works. But frankly, i dont think thats the problem today. We have low Interest Rates today. At least, we have low Interest Rates that the fed can control. Our longterm Interest Rates are still pretty high because of our deficit and because of our economic performance. And there was a terrible reaction internationally to mr. Bush saying he was going to give us four more years of trickledown economics another acrosstheboard tax cut and most of it going to the wealthy, with no real guarantee of investment. But i think the important thing is to use the powers the president does have on the assumption that, given the condition of this economy, were going to keep Interest Rates down if we have the discipline to increase investment and reduce the debt at the same time. That is my commitment. I think the American People are hungry for action. I think congress is hungry for someone who will work with them instead of manipulate them. Someone who will not veto a bill that has an investment tax credit, middle class tax relief, research and Development Tax credits as mr. Bush has done. Give me a chance to do that. I dont have to worry in the near term about the Federal Reserve. Their policies so far, it seems to me, are pretty sound. Jim lehrer president bush, you have one minute. President bush i dont think the fed ought to be put under the executive branch. There is a separation there. I think thats fine. Alan greenspan is respected. Ive had some arguments with him about the speed in which we have lowered Interest Rates, but governor clinton, he talks about the reaction to the markets. There was a momentary fear that he might win and that the markets went phwee, down like that. So i dont think we can judge on that. The stock market has been strong. Its been very strong since ive been president. And they recognize we got great difficulties, but theyre also much more optimistic than the pessimists we have up here tonight. In terms of vetoing tax bills, youre darn right. I am going to protect the american taxpayer against the spend and tax congress. And im going to keep on vetoing them, because i dont think were taxed too little. I think the governments spending too much. So governor clinton can label it tax for the rich or anything he wants. Im going to protect the working man by continuing to veto, and to threaten to veto until we get this new congress, and then were going to move forward on our plan. I have got to protect them. Jim lehrer mr. Perot, one minute. Mr. Perot keep the Federal Reserve independent, but lets live in a world of reality. We live in a global economy, not a national economy. These Interest Rates we have now dont make any sense. We have a 4 trillion debt, and only in america would you finance 70 of it five years or less. 70 of our debt is five years or less. Its very interest sensitive. We have a 4 gap between what we pay for treasuries, and what germany pays for one to five year treasuries. That gap is going to close, because the arabs, the japanese and folks in this country are going to start buying german treasuries because they can get more money. Every time our Interest Rates go adds 28 billion to the deficit or to the debt. Whichever place you put it. We are sitting on a ticking time bomb, folks, because we have totally mismanaged our country, and we had better get it back under control. Just think in your own business, if you had all of your long term problems financed short term. Youd go broke in a hurry. Jim lehrer all right. [applause] jim lehrer were going to move to Foreign Affairs. The first question goes to mr. Perot for a two minute answer, and sandy will ask. Sander vanocur mr. Perot, in the postwar coldwar environment, what should be the overriding u. S. National interest . And what can the United States do, and what can it afford to do, to defend the National Interest . Mr. Perot again, if youre not rich, youre not a superpower. So we have two that id put as number one. I have number 1 and 1a. One is weve got to have the money to be able to pay for defense, and weve got to manufacture here. Believe it or not, folks, you cant ship it all overseas, youve got to make it here. And you cant convert from potato chips to airplanes in an emergency. See, willow run could be converted from cars to airplanes in world war ii because it was here. Weve got to make things here. You cant ship them overseas anymore. I hope we can talk more about that. Second thing, on priorities. Weve got to help russia succeed in its revolution and all of its republics. When we think of russia, remember were thinking of many countries, now. Weve got to help them. Thats pennies on the dollar compared to renewing the cold war. Third, weve got all kinds of agreements on paper, and some that are being executed on getting rid of nuclear warheads. Russia and its republics are out of control or at best in weak control right now. Its a very unstable situation. Youve got every rich middle eastern country over there trying to buy nuclear weapons. As you well know. And that will lead to another five star migraine headache down the road. We really need to nail down the Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, the ones that can hit us from russia. And weve focused on the tactical. Weve made Real Progress there. Weve got some agreement on the nuclear, but we dont have those things put away yet. The sooner the better. So, in terms of priorities, weve got to be financially strong. Number two, weve got to take care of this missile situation and try to get the nuclear war behind us and give this thing very high priority. And number three, we need to help and support russia and the republics in every possible way to become democratic capitalistic societies, and not just sit back and let those countries continue in turmoil. Because they could go back worse than things used to be. And believe me, there are a lot of old boys in the k. G. B. And the military that liked it better the way it used to be. Thank you. Jim lehrer governor clinton, one minute. Governor clinton in order to keep america the strongest nation in the world, we need some continuity and some change. There are three fundamental challenges. First of all, the world is still a dangerous and uncertain place. We need a new military and a new National Security policy equal to the challenges of a post cold war era, a smaller Permanent Military force, but one that is more mobile, well trained with High Technology equipment. We need to continue the negotiations to reduce the Nuclear Arsenals in the soviet union, the former soviet union, and the United States. We need to stop this proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Second, we have to face that in this world, Economic Security is a whole lot of National Security. Our dollars at an all time low against some foreign currencies. Were weak in the world. We must rebuild americas strength at home. And finally, we ought to be promoting the democratic impulses around the world. Democracies are our partners. They dont go to war with each other. Theyre reliable friends in the future. National security, economic strength, democracy. Jim lehrer president bush, one minute. President bush well, we still are the envy of the world in terms of our military. Theres no question about that. Were the envy of the world in terms of our economy, despite the difficulties were having. Theres no question about that. Our exports are dramatically up. I might say to mr. Perot, i can understand why you might have missed it, because theres so much fascination with trivia, but i worked out a deal with Boris Yeltsin to eliminate, get rid of entirely, the most destabilizing weapons of all, the ss18, the intercontinental ballistic missile. I mean, thats been done. And thank god, it has, because the parents of these young people around here go to bed at night without the same fear of nuclear war. We made dramatic progress. And so, weve got a good military. The question, to sort of get a new military, get the best in the world, we got it, and theyre respected around the world. And were more more respected because of the way we have conducted ourselves. We didnt listen to the Nuclear Freeze crowd. We said, peace through strength, and it worked and the cold war is over. And america understands that. But were so, turned so inward we dont understand the global picture. And we are helping democracy, ross. The freedom support act is something i got through the congress, and its a very good thing, because it does exactly what you say, and i think you agree with that, to help russian democracy. And we are going to keep on doing that. Jim lehrer next question is for governor clinton, and john will ask it. John mashek governor clinton, you accused the president of coddling tyrants, including those in beijing. As president , how would you exert u. S. Power to influence affairs in china. Senator clinton i think our relationships with china are important and i dont want to isolate china, but i think it is a mistake for us to do what this administration did when all those kids went out there carrying the statue of liberty in tiananmen square. Mr. Bush sent two people in secret to toast the chinese leaders and basically tell them not to worry about it. They rewarded him by opening negotiations with iran to transfer nuclear technology. That was their response to that sort of action. Now that the voices in the congress and throughout the country have insisted that we do something about china, look at what has happened. China has finally agreed to stop sending us products made with prison labor. Not because we coddled them, but because the administration was pushed into doing something about it. And recently the chinese have announced they are going to lower some barriers to our products, which they ought to do since they have a 15 billion trade surplus with the United States under mr. Bush. The second biggest surplus next to japan. So i would be firm. I would say if you want to continue as most favored nation status for your government owned industries as well as your private ones, observe human rights in the future. Open your society. Recognize the legitimacy of those kids that were carrying the statue of liberty. If we can stand up for our economic interests, we ought to be able to preserve the democratic interests of the people of china. And over the long run, they will be more reliable partners. [applause] bush, you president have one minute. Thisdent Bush Administration is the first major country to stand up to the abuse in tiananmen square. We are the one that worked out the prison labor deal. We are the ones that lowered the barrier to products with carla hills negotiation. I am the one that said lets keep the m. F. N. Because you see china moving towards a free market economy. To do what the congress and governor clinton is suggesting , youd isolate and ruin hong kong. They are making some progress, not enough for us. We were the first ones to put sanctions on. We still have them on some things. But governor clintons philosophy is isolate them. He says dont do it, but the policies hes expounding of putting conditions on m. F. N. And kind of humiliating them is not the way you make the kind of progress we are getting. And ive stood up with these people, and i understand what you have to do to be strong in this situation, and its moving, not as fast as wed like. But you isolate china and turn them inward, and then weve made a tremendous mistake. And im not going to do it. And ive had to fight a lot of people that were saying human rights, and we are the ones that put the sanctions on and stood for it. And he can insult general scowcroft if he wants to. They didnt go over to coddle. He went over to say we must make the very changes theyre making now. [applause] jim lehrer one minute, mr. Perot. Mr. Perot all right, its huge. China, is a huge country, broken into many provinces. It has some very elderly leaders that will not be around too much longer. Capitalism is growing and thriving across big portions of china. Asia will be our largest trading partner in the future. It will be a growing and a closer relationship. We have a delicate, tightwire walk that we must go through at the present time to make sure that we do not cozy up to tyrants, to make sure that they dont get the impression that they can suppress their people. But time is our friend there, because their leaders will change in not too many years, worst case, and their country is making great progress. One last point on the missiles. I dont want the American People to be confused. We have written agreements and we have some missiles that have been destroyed, but we have a huge number of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles that are still in place in russia. The fact that you have an agreement is one thing. Till theyre destroyed, some crazy person can either sell them or use them. Jim lehrer all right. the next question goes to president bush for a twominute answer, and ann will ask it. Compton mr. President , how can you watch the killing in bosnia and the ethnic cleansing, or the starvation and anarchy in somalia, and not want to use americas might, if not americas military, to try to end that kind of suffering . President bush ann, both of them are very complicated situations. And i vowed something because i learned something from vietnam. I am not going to commit u. S. Forces until i know what the mission is, till the military tell me that it can be completed, and till i know how they can come out. We are helping. American airplanes are helping today on humanitarian relief for sarajevo. It is america thats in the lead in helping with humanitarian relief for somalia. But when you go to put somebody elses son or daughter into war, i think you got to be a little bit careful and you have to be sure that theres a military plan that can do this. You have ancient ethnic rivalries that have cropped up as yugoslavias dissolved or getting dissolved, and it isnt going to be solved by sending in the 82nd airborne, and im not going to do that as commanderinchief. I am going to stand by and use the moral persuasion of the United States to get satisfaction in terms of prison camps, and were making some progress there, and in terms of getting humanitarian relief in there. And right now, as you know, the United States took the lead in a nofly operation up there in nofly order up in the United Nations. Were working through the international organizations. Thats one thing i learned by forging that tremendous and highly successful coalition against saddam hussein, the dictator. Use work internationally to do it. I am very concerned about it. I am concerned about ethnic cleansing. I am concerned about a tax on muslims, for example, over there. But i must stop short of using American Force until i know how those young men and women are going to get out of there as well as get in, know what the mission is, and define it. And i think im on the right track. Ann compton are you designing a mission . Jim lehrer sorry, sorry. Time is up. We have to go to mr. Perot for a oneminute response. Mr. Perot i think if we learned anything in vietnam is you first commit this nation before you commit the troops to the battlefield. We cannot send our people all over the world to solve every problem that comes up. This is basically a problem that is a primary concern to the European Community. Certainly we care about the people, we care about the children, we care about the tragedy. But it is inappropriate for us, just because theres a problem somewhere around the world, to take the sons and daughters of working people and make no mistake about it, our allvolunteer armed force is not made up of the sons and daughters of the beautiful people. Its the working folks who send their sons and daughters to war, with a few exceptions. Its very unlike world war ii, when fdrs sons flew missions. Everybody went. Its a different world now. Its very important that we not just, without thinking it through, just rush to every problem in the world and have our people torn to pieces. Jim lehrer governor clinton, one minute. Governor clinton i agree that we cannot commit Ground Forces to become involved in the quagmire of bosnia or in the tribal wars of somalia. But i think that its important to recognize that there are things that can be done short of that, and that we do have interests there. There are, after all, 2 million refugees now because of the problems in what was yugoslavia, the largest number since world war ii, and there may be hundreds of thousands of people who will starve or freeze to death in this winter. The United States should try to work with its allies and stop it. I urged the president to support this air cover, and he did. And i applaud that. I applaud the nofly zone, and i know that hes going back to the United Nations to try to get authority to enforce it. I think we should stiffen the embargo on the belgrade government. And i think we have to consider whether or not we should lift the arms embargo now on the bosnians, since they are in no way in a fair fight with a heavily armed opponent bent on ethnic cleansing. We cant involved in the quagmire, but we must do what we can. Jim lehrer all right, moving on now to divisions in our country, the first question goes to governor clinton for two minutes. And ann will ask it. Ann compton governor clinton, can you tell us what your definition of the word family is . Governor clinton a family involves at least one parent, whether natural or adoptive or foster, and children. A good family is a place where love and discipline and good values are transmuted from the elders to the children, a place where people turn for refuge, and where they know theyre the most important people in the world. America has a lot of families that are in trouble today. Theres been a lot of talk about family values in this campaign. I know a lot about that. I was born to a widowed mother who gave me family values, and grandparents. Ive seen the family values of my people in arkansas. Ive seen the family values of all these people in america who are out there killing themselves working harder for less in a country thats had the worst economic years in 50 years and the first decline in Industrial Production ever. I think the president owes it to family values to show that he values americas families, whether theyre people on welfare youre trying to move from welfare to work, the working poor whom i think deserve a tax break to lift them above poverty if theyve got a child in the house and working 40 hours a week, working families who deserve a fair tax system and the opportunity for constant retraining. They deserve a strong economy. And i think they deserve a family and medical leave act. 72 other nations have been able to do it. Mr. Bush vetoed it twice because he says we cant do something seventytwo other nations have been able to do it. Mr. Bush vetoed it twice because he says we cant do something seventytwo other countries do, even though there was a Small Business exemption. So with all the talk about family values, i know about family values i wouldnt be here without them. The best expression of my family values is that tonights my 17th wedding anniversary, and id like to close my question by just wishing my wife a happy anniversary, and thank you, my daughter, for being here. [applause] president bush, one minute. Well, i would say that one meeting that made a profound impression on me was when the mayors of the big cities, including the mayor of los angeles, a democrat, came to see me, and they unanimously said the decline in urban america stems from the decline in the american family. So i do think we need to strengthen family. When barbara holds an aids baby, shes showing a certain compassion for family; when she reads to children, the same thing. I believe that discipline and respect for the law all of these things should be taught to children, not in our schools, but families have to do that. Im appalled at the highest outrageous numbers of divorces it happens in families, its happened in ours. But its gotten too much. And i just think that we ought to do everything we can to respect the american family. It can be a singleparent family. Those mothers need help. And one way to do it is to get these deadbeat fathers to pay their obligations to these mothers that will help strengthen the american family. And theres a whole bunch of other things that i cant click off in this short period of time. All right, mr. Perot, you have one minute. If i had to solve all the problems that face this country and i could be granted one wish as we started down the trail to rebuild the job base, the schools and so on and so forth, i would say a Strong Family unit in every home, where every child is loved, nurtured, and encouraged. A little child before theyre 18 months learns to think well of himself or herself or poorly. They develop a positive or negative selfimage. At a very early age they learn how to learn. If we have children who are not surrounded with love and affection you see, i look at my grandchildren and wonder if theyll ever learn to walk because theyre always in someones arms. And i think, my gosh, wouldnt it be wonderful if every child had that love and support. But they dont. We will not be a great country unless we have a Strong Family unit in every home. And i think you can use the white house as a bully pulpit to stress the importance of these little children, particularly in their young and formative years, to mold these little precious pieces of clay so that they, too, can live rich full lives when theyre grown. New question, twominute answer, goes to president bush. Sandy will ask it. Mr. President , theres been a lot of talk about harry truman in this campaign, so much so that i think tomorrow ill wake up and see him named as the next commissioner of baseball. [laughter] the thing that mr. Truman didnt have to deal with is drugs. Americans are increasingly alarmed about drugrelated crimes in cities and suburbs. And your administration is not the first to have grappled with this. And are you at all of a mind that maybe it ought to go to another level, if not to whats advocated by william f. Buckley, jr. And milton friedman, legalization, somewhere between there and where we are now . No, i dont think thats the right answer. I dont believe legalizing narcotics is the answer. I just dont believe thats the answer. I do believe that theres some fairly good news out there. The use of cocaine, for example, by teenagers is dramatically down. But weve got to keep fighting on this war against drugs. Were doing a little better in interdiction. Many of the countries below that used to say, well, this is the u. S. s problem if youd get the demand down, then we wouldnt have the problem are working cooperatively with the dea and the military. Were using the military more now in terms of interdiction. Our funding for recovery is up, recovering the addicts. Where were not making the progress, sander, is in were making it in teenagers, and thank god, because i thought what ross said was most appropriate about these families and these children. But where were not making it is with the confirmed addicts. And ill tell you one place thats working well, and that is the private sector jim burke and this task force that he has, you may know about it. Ill tell the American People, but this man said ill get you a Million Dollars a day in pro bono advertising, something thats very hard for the government to do. And he went out and he did it. And people are beginning to educate through this program, teaching these kids you shouldnt use drugs. So were still in the fight. But i must tell you, i think legalization of narcotics, or something of that nature, in the face of the medical evidence, would be totally counterproductive. And i oppose it, and im going to stand up and continue to oppose it. Mr. Perot, one minute. Anytime you think you want to legalize drugs, go to a Neonatal Unit if you can get in. Theyre between 100 and 200 capacity up and down the east coast. And the reason is crack babies being born, babies in the hospital 42 days. Typical cost to you and me is 125,000. Again and again and again, the mother disappears in 3 days, and the child becomes a ward of the state because hes permanently and genetically damaged. Just look at those little children, and if anybody can even think about legalizing drugs, theyve lost me. Now, lets look at priorities. You know, we went on the libyan raid do you remember that one . Because we were worried to death that gaddafi might be building up chemical weapons. Weve got Chemical Warfare being conducted against our children on the streets in this country all day every day, and we dont have the will to stamp it out. Now, again, if i get up there, if you send me, were going to have some blunt talks about this, and were really going to get down in the trenches and say, is this one you want to talk about or fix, because talk wont do it, folks. There are guys that couldnt get a job third shift in a dairy queen driving bmws and mercedes selling drugs. And these old boys are not going to quit easy. Governor clinton, one minute. Like mr. Perot, i have held crack babies in my arms. But i know more about this, i think, than anybody else up here because i have a brother whos a recovering drug addict. Im very proud of him. But i can tell you this. If drugs were legal, i dont think hed be alive today. I am adamantly opposed to legalizing drugs. He is alive today because of the criminal justice system. Thats a mistake. What should we do . First, we ought to prevent more of this on the street. Thirty years ago, there were three policemen for every crime. Now there are three crimes for every policeman. We need a hundred thousand more police on the street. I have a plan for that. Secondly, we ought to have treatment on demand. Thirdly, we ought to have boot camps for firsttime nonviolent offenders so they can get discipline and treatment and education and get reconnected to the community before theyre severed and sent to prison, where they can learn how to be first class criminals. There is a crime bill that, lamentably, was blocked from passage once again, mostly by republicans in the us senate, which would have addressed some of these problems. That crime bill is going to be one of my highest priorities next january if i become president. Next question is to you, mr. Perot. You have two minutes to answer it and john will ask it. Mr. Perot, Racial Division continues to tear apart our great cities, the last episode being this spring in los angeles. Why is this still happening in america, and what would you do to end it . This is a relevant question here tonight. The first thing id do is, during political campaigns, i would urge everybody to stop trying to split this country into fragments and appeal to the differences between us and then wonder why the melting pot is all broken to pieces after november the 3rd. We are all in this together. We ought to love one another because united teams win and divided teams lose. And if we cant love one another, we ought to get along with one another. And if you cant get there, just recognize were all stuck with one another because nobodys going anywhere, right . [laughter] now, that ought to get everybody back up to lets get along together and make it work. Our diversity is a strength. Weve turned it into a weakness. Now again, the white house is a bully pulpit. I think whoever is in the white house should just make it absolutely unconscionable and inexcusable, and if anybodys in the middle of a speech at, you know, one of these conventions, i would expect the candidate to go out and lift him off the stage if he starts preaching hate because we dont have time for it. See, our differences are our strengths. We have got to pull together. In athletics, we know it. See, divided teams lose; united teams win. We have got to unite and pull together, and theres nothing we cant do. But if we sit around blowing all this energy out the window on racial strife and hatred, we are stuck with a sure loser because we have been a melting pot. Were becoming more and more of a melting pot. Lets make it a strength, not a weakness. Governor clinton, one minute. I grew up in the segregated south, thankfully raised by a grandfather with almost no formal education but with a heart of gold who taught me early that all people were equal in the eyes of god. I saw the winds of hatred divide people and keep the people of my state poorer than they would have been, spiritually and economically. And ive done everything i could in my public life to overcome Racial Divisions. We dont have a person to waste in this country. We are being murdered economically because we have too many dropouts, we have too many low birthweight babies, we have too many drug addicts as kids, we have too much violence, we are too divided by race, by income, by region. And i have devoted a major portion of this campaign to going across this country and looking for opportunities to go to white groups and African American groups and latino groups and Asian American groups and say the same thing. If the American People cannot be brought together, we cant turn this country around. If we can come together, nothing can stop us. Mr. President , one minute. Well, i think governor clinton is committed. I do think its fair to note he can rebut it but arkansas is one of the few states that doesnt have any civil rights legislation. Ive tried to use the white house as a bully pulpit, speaking out against discrimination. We passed two very forwardlooking civil rights bills. Its not going to be all done by legislation. But i do think that you need to make an appeal every time you can to eliminate Racial Divisions and discrimination, and ill keep on doing that and pointing to some legislative accomplishment to back it up. I have to take ten seconds here at the end the red light isnt on yet to say to ross perot, please dont say to the dea agents on the street that we dont have the will to fight drugs. Please. I have watched these people the same for our local Law Enforcement people. Were backing up at every way we possibly can. But maybe you meant that some in the country dont have the will to fight it, but those that are out there on the front line, as you know youve been a strong backer of Law Enforcement really i just want to clear that up have the will to fight it, and, frankly, some of them are giving their lives. Time, mr. President. All right. Lets go now to another subject, the subject of health. The first question for 2 minutes is to president bush, and john will ask it. Mr. President , yesterday tens of thousands of people paraded past the white house to demonstrate their concern about the disease aids. A celebrated member of your commission, Magic Johnson, quit saying that there was too much inaction. Where is this widespread feeling coming from that your administration is not doing enough about aids . Coming from the political process. We have increased funding for aids. Weve doubled it on research and on every other aspect of it. My request for this year was 4. 9 billion for aids ten times as much per aids victim as per cancer victim. I think that were showing the proper compassion and concern. So i cant tell you where its coming from, but i am very much concerned about aids and i believe that weve got the best researchers in the world out there at nih working the problem. Were funding them i wish there was more money but were funding them far more than any time in the past, and were going to keep on doing that. I dont know. I was a little disappointed in magic because he came to me and i said, now if you see something were not doing, get ahold of me. Call me, let me know. He went to one meeting, and then we heard that he was stepping down. So hes replaced by mary fisher who electrified the Republican Convention by talking about the compassion and the concern that we feel. It was a beautiful moment and i think shell do a firstclass job on that commission. So i think the appeal is yes, we care. And the other thing is part of aids its one of the few diseases where behavior matters. And i once called on somebody, well, change your behavior. Is the behavior youre using prone to cause aids . Change the behavior. Next thing i know, one of these act up groups is out saying, bush ought to change his behavior. You cant talk about it rationally. The extremes are hurting the aids cause. To go into a catholic mass in a beautiful cathedral in new york under the cause of helping in aids and start throwing condoms around in the mass, im sorry, i think it sets back the cause. We cannot move to the extreme. Weve got to care. Weve got to continue everything we can at the federal and the local level. Barbara i think is doing a superb job in destroying the myth about aids. And all of us are in this fight together, all of us care. Do not go to the extreme. One minute, mr. Perot. First, i think mary fisher was a great choice. Were lucky to have her heading the commission. Secondly, i think one thing that if i were sent to do the job, i would sit down with fda, look at exactly where we are. Then i would really focus on lets get these things out. If youre going to die, you through on new drugs. Believe me, people with aids are more than willing to take that risk. And we could be moving out to the human population a whole lot faster than we are on some of these new drugs. So i would think we can expedite the problem there. Let me go back a minute to racial divisiveness. The alltime low in our country was the judge thomasanita hill hearings, and those senators ought to be hanging their heads in shame for what they did there. 2nd thing, there are not many times in your life when you get to talk to a whole country. But let me just say to all of america if you hate people, i dont want your vote. Thats how strongly i feel about it. Governor clinton, one minute. Over 150,000 americans have died of aids. Well over a million and a quarter americans are hivpositive. We need to put one person in charge of the battle against aids to cut across all the agencies that deal with it. We need to accelerate the drug approval process. We need to fully fund the act named for that wonderful boy ryan white to make sure were doing everything we can on research and treatment. And the president should lead a National Effort to change behavior, to keep our children alive in the schools, responsible behavior to keep people alive. This is a matter of life and death. I have worked in my state to reduce teen pregnancy and illness among children. I know its tough. The reason Magic Johnson resigned from the aids commission is because the statement you heard tonight from mr. Bush is the longest and best statement hes made about it in public. I am proud of what we did at the democratic convention, putting 2 hivpositive people on the platform, and i am proud of the leadership that im going to bring to this country in dealing with the aids crisis. New question for mr. Perot. You have 2 minutes to answer, and ann will ask it. Mr. Perot, even if youve got what people say are the guts to take on changes in the most popular, the most sacred of the entitlements, medicare, people say you havent a prayer of actually getting anything passed in washington. Since a president isnt a lone ranger, how in the world can you make some of those unpopular changes . Two ways. Number one, if i get there, it will be a very unusual and historical event because the people, not the special interests, put me there. I will have a unique mandate. I have said again and again, and this really upsets the establishment in washington, that were going to inform the people in detail on the issues through an electronic town hall so that they really know whats going on. They will want to do whats good for our country. Now, all these fellows with thousanddollar suits and alligator shoes running up and down the halls of congress that make policy now the lobbyists, the pac guys, the foreign lobbyists, and whathaveyou, theyll be over there in the smithsonian, you know because were going to get rid of them, and the congress will be listening to the people. And the American People are willing to have fair, shared sacrifice. Theyre not as stupid as washington thinks they are. The American People are bright, intelligent, caring, loving people who want a great country for their children and grandchildren. And they will make those sacrifices. So i welcome that challenge, and just watch because if the American People send me there, well get it done. Now, everybody will faint in washington. Theyve never seen anything happen in that town. [laughter] this is a town where the white house says, congress did it; congress says, the white house did it. And im sitting there and saying, well, who else could be around, you know . Then when they get off by themselves, they say nobody did it. [laughter] and yet the cash registers empty and it used to have our money, the taxpayers money, in it, and we didnt get the results. No, well get it done. Governor, one minute. Ross, thats a great speech, but its not quite that simple. I mean, look at the facts. Both parties in washington, the president and the congress, have cut medicare. The average Senior Citizen is spending a higher percentage of income on health care today than they were in 1965, before medicare came in. The president s got another proposal to require them to pay 400 a year more for the next 5 years. But if you dont have the guts to control costs by changing the insurance system and taking on the bureaucracies and the regulation of health care in the private and public sector, you cant fix this problem. Costs will continue to spiral. And just remember this, folks. A lot of folks on medicare are out there every day making the choice between food and medicine; not poor enough for medicaremedicaid, not wealthy enough to buy their medicine. Ive met them, people like mary annie and edward davis in nashua, new hampshire. All over this country, they cannot even buy medicine. So lets be careful. When we talk about cutting Health Care Costs, lets start with the Insurance Companies and the people that are making a killing instead of making our people healthy. One minute, president bush. Well, first place, id like to clear up something because every 4 years, the democrats go around and say, republicans are going to cut Social Security and medicare. They started it again. Im the president that stood up and said, dont mess with Social Security, and im not going to and we havent and we are not going to go after the Social Security recipient. I have one difference with mr. Perot on that because i dont think we need to touch Social Security. What we do need to do, though, is control the growth of these mandatory programs. And ross properly says, okay, theres some pain in that. But governor clinton refuses to touch that, simply refuses. So what weve got to do is control it, let it grow for inflation, let it grow for the amount of new people added, population, and then hold the line. And i believe that is the way you get the deficit down, not by the taxandspend program that we hear every 4 years, whether its mondale, dukakis, whoever else it is. I just dont believe we ought to do that. So hold the line on Social Security and put a cap on the growth of the mandatory program. New question, it is for governor clinton, 2 minute answer. Sandy will ask it. Governor clinton, ann compton has brought up medicare. I remember in 1965, when wilbur mills of arkansas, the chairman of ways and means, was pushing it through the congress. The charge against it was its socialized medicine. Mr. Bush made that charge. Well, he served with him 2 years later, in 1967, where i first met him. The 2nd point, though, is that it is now skyrocketing out of control. People want it. We say its going bonkers. Is not the oregon plan applied to medicaid rationing the proper way to go even though the federal government last august ruled that it violated the americans with disabilities act of 1990 . I thought the oregon plan should at least have been allowed to be tried because at least the people in oregon were trying to do something. Let me go back to the main point, sandy. Mr. Bush is trying to run against Lyndon Johnson and jimmy carter and everybody in the world but me in this race. I have proposed a managed competition plan for health care. I will say again you cannot control Health Care Costs simply by cutting medicare. Look whats happened. The federal government has cut medicare and medicaid in the last few years, states have cut medicaid weve done it in arkansas under budget pressures. But what happens . More and more people get on the rolls as poverty increases. If you dont control the Health Care Costs of the entire system, you cannot get control of it. Look at our program. We set up a National Ceiling on Health Care Costs tied to inflation and population growth set by health care providers, not by the government. We provide for managed competition, not government models, in every states. And we control private and public Health Care Costs. Now, just a few days ago a Bipartisan Commission of republicans and democrats more republicans than democrats said my plan will save the average family 1200 a year more than the bush plan will by the year 2000, 2. 2 trillion in the next 12 years, 400 billion a year by the end of this decade. Ive got a plan to control Health Care Costs. But you cant just do it by cutting medicare; you have to take on the Insurance Companies, the bureaucracies. And you have to have cost controls, yes. But keep in mind we are spending 30 more on health care than any country in the world, any country, and yet we have 35 Million People uninsured, we have no preventing and primary care. The oregon plan is a good start if the federal government is going to continue to abandon its responsibilities. I say if germany can cover everybody and keep costs under inflation, if hawaii can cover 98 of their people at lower Health Care Costs than the rest of us, if rochester, new york, can do it with twothirds of the cost of the rest of it, america can do it, too. Im tired of being told we cant. I say we can. We can do better, and we must. President bush, one minute. Well, i dont have time in 30 seconds, or whatever a minute to talk about our Health Care Reform plan. The oregon plan made some good sense, but its easy to dismiss the concerns of the disabled. As president i have to be sure that those waivers, which were approving all over the place, are covered under the law. Maybe we can work it out. But the americans with disabilities act, speaking about sound and sensible civil rights legislation, was the most foremost piece of legislation passed in modern times, and so we do have something more than a technical problem. Governor clinton clicked off the things hes going to take on Insurance Companies and bureaucracies. He failed to take on somebody else the malpractice suit people, those that bring these lawsuits against these frivolous trial lawyers lawsuits that are running the costs of medical care up 25 to 50 billion. And he refuses to put anything, controls, on these crazy lawsuits. If you want to help somebody, dont run the costs up by making doctors have to have 5 or 6 tests where one would do for fear of being sued, or have somebody along the highway not stop to pick up a guy and help him because hes afraid a trial lawyer will come along and sue him. Were suing each other too much and caring for each other too little. Mr. Perot, one minute. We got the most Expensive Health care system in the world; it ranks behind 15 other nations when we come to life expectancy, and 22 other nations when we come to infant mortality. So we dont have the best. Pretty simple, folks if youre paying more and you dont have the best, if all else fails go copy the people who have the best who spend less, right . Well, we can do better than that. Again, weve got plans lying all over the place in washington. Nobody ever implements them. Now im back to square one. If you want to stop talking about it and do it, then ill be glad to go up there and well get it done. But if you just want to keep the music going, just stay traditional this next time around, and 4 years from now youll have everybody blaming everybody else for a bad health care system. Talk is cheap; words are plentiful, deeds are precious. Lets get on with it. And thats exactly what were going to do. That was, in fact, the final question and answer. Were now going to move to closing statements. Each candidate will have up to 2 minutes. The order, remember, was determined by drawing, and mr. Perot, you are first. Well, its been a privilege to be able to talk to the American People tonight. I make no bones about it. I love this country. I love the principle its founded on. I love the people here. I dont like to see the countrys principles violated. I dont like to see the people in a deteriorating economy in a deteriorating country because our government has lost touch with the people. The people in washington are good people. We just have a bad system. Weve got to change the system. Its time to do it because we have run up so much debt that time is no longer our friend. Weve got to put our house in order. When you go to bed tonight, look at your children. Think of their dreams. Think of your dreams as a child and ask yourself, isnt it time to stop talking about it . Isnt it time to stop creating images . Isnt it time to do it . Arent you sick of being treated like an unprogrammed robot . Every 4 years, they send you all kinds of messages to tell you how to vote and then go back to business as usual. They told you at the tax and we increased taxes. Thats washington in a nutshell right there. In the final analysis, im doing this for your children when you look at them tonight. Theres another group that i feel very close to, and these at are the men and women who fought on the battlefield, the children the families of the ones who died and the people who left parts of their bodies over there. Id never ask you to do anything for me, but i owe you this, and im doing it for you. And i cant tell you what it means to me at these rallies when i see you, and you come up and the look in your eyes and i know how you feel and you know how i feel. And then i think of the older people who are retired. They grew up in the depression. They fought and won world war ii. We owe you a debt we can never repay you. And the greatest repayment i can ever give is to recreate the American Dream for your children and grandchildren. Ill give you everything i have, if you want me to do it. [applause] mr. Lehrer governor clinton, your closing statement. Gov. Clinton id like to thank the people of st. Louis and Washington University, the president ial Debate Commission and all those who made this night possible. And id like to thank those of you who are watching. Most of all, id like to thank all of you who have touched me in some way over this last year, all the thousands of you whom ive seen. Id like to thank the computer executives and the electronics executives in silicon valley, twothirds of whom are republicans who said they wanted to sign on to a change in to create a new america. Id like to thank the hundreds of executives who came to chicago, a third of them republicans, who said they wanted to change. Id like to thank the people whove started with mr. Perot whove come on to help our campaign. Id like to thank all the folks around america that no one ever knows about the woman who was holding the aids baby she adopted in cedar rapids, iowa who asked me to do something more for adoption, the woman who stopped along the road in wisconsin and wept because her husband had lost his job after 27 years, all the people who are having a tough time and the people who are winning but who know how desperately we need to change. This debate tonight has made Crystal Clear a challenge that is as old as america the choice between hope and fear, change or more of the same, the courage to move into a new tomorrow or to listen to the crowd who says things could be worse. Mr. Bush has said some very compelling things tonight that dont quite square with the record. He was president for three years before he proposed a Health Care Plan that still hasnt been sent to congress in total, three years before an economic plan, and he still didnt say tonight that that tax bill he vetoed raised taxes only on the rich and gave the rest of you a break but he vetoed it anyway. I offer a new direction. Invest in american jobs, american education, control Health Care Costs, bring this country together again. I want the future of this country to be as bright and brilliant as its past, and it can be if we have the courage to change. [applause] mr. Lehrer president bush, your closing statement. Pres. Bush let me tell you a little what its like to be president. In the oval office, you cant predict what kind of crisis is going to come up. You have to make tough calls. You cant be on one hand this way and one hand another. You cant take different positions on these difficult issues. And then you need a philosophical id call it a philosophical underpinning. Mine for Foreign Affairs is democracy and freedom, and look at the dramatic changes around the world. The cold war is over. The soviet union is no more, and were working with a democratic country. Poland, hungary, czechoslovakia, the baltics are free. Take a look at the middle east. We had to stand up against a tyrant. The United States came together as we havent in many, many years, and we kicked this man out of kuwait. And in the process, as a result of that will and that decision and that toughness, we now have ancient enemies talking peace in the middle east. Nobody would have dreamed it possible, and i think the biggest dividend of making these tough calls is the fact that we are less afraid of nuclear war. Every parent out there has much less worry that their kids are going to be faced with nuclear holocaust. All this is good. On the domestic side, what we must do is have change that empowers people not change for the sake of change, tax and spend. We dont need to do that any more. What we need to do is empower people. We need to invest and save. We need to do better in education. We need to do better in job retraining. We need to expand our exports, and theyre going very, very well, indeed. And we need to strengthen the american family. I hope as president that ive earned your trust. Ive admitted it when i make a mistake, but then i go on and help try to solve the problems. I hope ive earned your trust because a lot of being president is about trust and character. And i ask for your support for four more years to finish this job. Thank you very, very much. [applause] mr. Lehrer dont go away yet. I just want to thank the three panelists and thank the three candidates for participating president bush, governor clinton and mr. Perot. They will appear again together on october the 15th and again on october 19th, and next tuesday there will be a debate among the three candidates for vice president. And for now, from Washington University in st. Louis, missouri, im jim lehrer. Thank you and good night. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] tv isrican history on cspan3 every weekend. You can watch lectures in college classrooms, archival films, and see our schedule of upcoming programs at cspan. Org history. Tvday, American History visits the Jim Crow Museum of racist memorabilia at Ferris State University in big rapids, michigan, to see a collection of collectionrom their here is a preview. The founder and director of the Jim Crow Museum of racist memorabilia argues that although the artifacts are offensive, they can be used as teaching tools to promote conversations and understanding. S in the late 1820s, a truggling white stage actor blackened his face, adopted the persona of a black, i dont know any other way to say it, buffoon, and started entertaining audiences. He was not the first person to dress in black face. Towas not the first person dress in black face and imitate blacks as the phones. He was the first to become famous doing it. It was not long before black thetrelsy took off in United States. His stage name was jim crow. It became a synonym for the way blacks were discriminated against. Some will say they have some vague understanding of the whites of familiark people are with segregation and jim crow laws. When people talk about the laws, they have the misunderstanding that the laws were created at a specific point in time all at once. We educate people that those laws were crated all over the country at very different points in the jim crow period. The laws are critical, but the system did not just run on laws. It also ran on customs and practice. Even in places where you may not have had as many laws, you still have jim crow practices, practices that supported the racial hierarchy. Havethat failed, you violence, either the threat of violence or symbolic violence or physical violence. And i do not think this is a mistake. Hierarchy of racial known as jim crow could not have existed in this country without violence. They could not have. Layer todded another the understanding because we make the point that the system was also propped up by millions of everyday objects. Trays, incense games, and childrens which are a pernicious way to spread racial propaganda. Every day objects. Irded jim that underg crow were reflected in those objects, which in turn helped to shape the attitudes about africanamericans. Learn more about the museums collection sunday at 6 00 p. M. Pacific on00 p. M. American tv. This is American History tv on cspan3, where each weekend we feature 48 hours of program exploring our nations past. On lectures in history, writer my are good teachers a class on president s and communications in their campaigns and while in office. Starting with Teddy Roosevelt and continuing to the present day, she assesses the effectiveness of president ial communications based on six categories vision, charisma, pragmatism, consensusbuilding, credibility, luck, and speaking ability. Due to the coronavirus pandemic, this class took place online and Rider University provided the video