I first took my seat in the ancient bodin the spring of 1769. I must tell you, your excellency, you were already a legend in my family when i was a young boy. My father, peter jefferson, spoke very highly of you. He as you well know was a surveyor commissioned by the western authority surveying lintz of virginia and beyond. Lands of virginia and beyond. He was a young major. I believe you both sat together in the Virginia House of burgesss, just before he passed away. He passed away in 1757. When i came to the house 12 years later, i had already known of you as a boy that attended the old World College in williamsburg, william and mary and george whiff and practicing law in williamsburg. In fact, general, i do not know whether you remember, but when i was a young man, a good 25 years of age, i had already become a de devote of theater and never missed an opportunity when virginia burg performed in the theater and i believe mrs. Campbell was quite the destiny for you. You enjoyed her ocean repair. That is her fine seafood. There, the two of us, if i remember well, attended a production of the virginia company. I was only, i would venture, 25 years of age, in the spring of 68. I remember you as well are quite a devote of the theater. I am and i did attend theater in the old capitol. I must confess to you at this age i do not actually remember meeting you at one of those but it is very possible. I was hardly dry behind the ears in those early years, general. Like i said, youre younger than myself. Speaking of the Virginia House of burgesss, what are some of the issues that arose and how did they lead with americas break with england . If you will allow me, i shall begin and let you convey the substance of it. I started in 1766. If you will allow an old man to recollect. When ones hair turns white, thats what one does. I remember a story by colonel mason to mrs. Washington, pretty much my first attendance to the house. I was in the french war. I was in the hall, they called it the hall of Virginia House of burgesses. All members rose and gave me standing acclaim. I was expected to return that acclaim by making a speech. Forgive me, but colonel mason told mrs. Washington that i blushed red like a virgin and was completely tongtied. It was at that point the old speaker robinson to his staff on the floor and said, you may sit down, colonel washington because it is obvious to all that your modesty is equal to your bravery. That said, i would tell you innovative or routine speaker at the Virginia House. I sat with younger ones, mr. Jefferson and others as well and many older wiser members of the house, speaker robinson and mr. Randolph and mr. Whitten. The Virginia House of burgesses was very entrenched. In the 1760s, the house had the Sole Authority to tax virginians. In may of 1774 close to the outbreak of the war as well, at the last session of the house, you mentioned it, mr. Jefferson, i remember we called for fasting and prayer, in support of what was happening at that time. The boston citizenry was subjected to strong discipline by the following. It was at that time what you ref reynolds forefathers the governor promptly dissolved the house of burgesses, and we just met the next day. We signed a number of documents and continued to support the war. Truth be told, the Virginia House of burgesses never fully meets in full again. You might want to add to this, mr. Jefferson. I remember vividly your speaking, once i took my seat in this house of burgesses. There was one concern immediately after the next and i recall after we heard about the closure of the port of boston retaliation by the crown because of the socalled tea party in Boston Harbor and i always thought those that enjoyed the tea party were the fishes of boston. Remember, that was a riot and destruction of private property, however, with just cause. When we learned of the atrocious method by which the crown would close down the entire port to publish all the inhabitants of amazed bay, we wouldnt let it pass in virginia. You are absolutely right we cooked up, as i have written, a resolution for fasting, humiliation and prayer. They were not very happy with the call. If i remember, general, if i remember, the evening before, governor dunmore rode to the capitol of williamsburg, all bedecked in state to dissolve us, as was the royal prerogative, if i am correct in regular, did you not share a meal with the governor at the old royal palace . You are correct, i did, hoping to diffuse his response, to no avail. It was to know effect. You were present. I remember distinctly in the old raleigh tavern when my late cousin, peyton randolph, speaker of the house of burgesses at the time, decided we all ought to gather together, virginia and massachusetts, 600 miles distance and to be accompanied by our sister colonies, not in virginia, as a virginian would want it nor in massachusetts, but midway between the northern and southern colonies to meet in philadelphia. General, i wish i had been there at that First Congress, september of 74, but i fell ill. I was not able to go, but you were there, the very First Congress of all of the colonies. I always envied that about your history, along with so many other things that have continued to remain an inspiration for me. If you remember, thomas, it was only months earlier, all of us in virginia believing if these had happened anywhere else, the governor confiscated the black powder and weapons and magazines in williamsburg. General, if you will, i beg your pardon, you know i do that frequently, im having a difficulty being able to hear you. Might you speak just a tad louder . I shall, i shall. I was saying it was months earlier the governor confiscated the black powder and weaponry and magazines in williamsburg. I found myself in september of 1774, what a remarkable ass assembliance that was. It was a miracle anything actually happened because we were absolutely strangers to each other at the time of that very first meeting, we had 13 different armies, 13 different currencies, 13 different colonies. Nine of the colonies had standing maybes. We were absolute strangers to each other with different customs. It was absolutely remarkable. To the orginal question, the Virginia House of burgesses was fully engaged in the struggle that led to american independency. So much, general, we forget the next year when i finally had the opportunity to attend the congress of philadelphia that spring and summer of 75, virginia rose further to the forefront calling for an american army. Remember, we heard nothing from england as we showed our respect with an olive branch seeking reconciliation and offering to send an army for the necessity of taking up arms and we realized that necessity could be in no one elses hands but yours, general. I will never forget that spring and summer of 75 we formed a militia to form an army and who else to lead us in the First Commission as a general. Neither of us will ever forget if you were born in the colonies of britain you could never rise to the rank of general in the british army. Only colonel in militia. General, no one else could have fulfilled that commission but yourself. I dont know if i discussed this with you, thomas. When i was commissioned by the congress, it was concluded, i was scared to death. I had let an regiment and never led an army. I remember sitting in my boarding rooms when i was not involved with meetings from the congress, and i was reading everything on strategy. I understood tactics good but not strategy. I could not even walk to the dias, if you recall. I accepted the commission. When i sat down, everyone in that room knew that our world, perhaps the world would never be the same again. Youve always been honest, general, youve always been distinct and direct with your feelings, at least with me, and how well we both know courage and valor can only be supported by one questioning themselves and better understanding the risks that they take, but that the risk is so worthy for the greater good. Madam, have you another question . Yes. General washington and mr. Jefferson, we know that you served in the cabinet together, the very first cabinet. What are some of your thoughts about some of the strong differences of opinion amongst the cabinet members in the first cabinet . I think they referred to it as internal dissension tearing us apart. It was not always such the case. I selected my cabinet members based on their ability to Carry Forward the establishment of the Major Department this is an are responsible for. Mr. Jefferson, as my secretary of state, he was a man of letters and man of education, forgive me if i embarrass you, thomas. He has already joined john adams and dr. Benjamin in paris in 1874 to contribute to the european powers. The following year, i believe it was 1775, you succeeded dr. Franklin, is that right, thomas . Yes, you are. Thats quite correct. He took leave of paris to return to our country and happily to be there as soon was convened the Constitutional Convention over which you served, and none other, in my opinion, served so successfully as the president. Youre kind. I didnt stop watching your accomplishments. While he was minister of france he negotiated a constitution with prussia. It was appropriate to pick mr. Jefferson as my secretary of foreign affairs, what you might refer to as secretary of state. In the beginning, colonel hamilton and mr. Jefferson agreed, they were actually friends, if you can imagine. Things began to bifurcate fairly quickly betwixt the federalists and democratic republicans and antifederalists. By way of explanation in the broadest terms. Federalists supported ratification of the constitution, a government type of commercial interests. I dont think its an oversimplification to say antifederal lists favored strong states rights. This is where the problem arose, and the internal conflict within my cabinet, because to their opponents, the federalists were really monarchists, if truth be told, whose affection for Great Britain would set aside, would lose any gains we had made in our war for american independence. To the participants of the antifederalists, they were considered radical democrats and had a zeal for the kingdom of france would have the same results would turn us away for a positive outcome for american independence. This did not bode well for america. Im sure you have your own perspective on it, thomas. It is challenging to find areas looking back in which mr. Jefferson and colonel hamilton were in complete agreement. They did exist. They both agreed on an educated informed citizenry and agreed on National Currency and establishment of the Revenue Service to guard our coasts, a few other things as well. I beg your pardon, general hamilton referred to the necessity of the coast guard as the necessity for revenue cutters. I referred to it as necessity for militia boats to protect and defend our coastline. With all due respect your excellency, you are correct. At the very beginning, you referred to him as colonel. If you remember, he preferred general. Hamilton and i did agree and we worked together to agree and advise and consult with you as you placed your trust in us to be seated in your cabinet. Yes, you are correct, whether you referred to it as federalists or whether you referred to others as antifederalists, we did believe in the necessity of a Central Government, that the Central Government would be supported by the concerns of the individual states, and the purpose of the federal government was to protect and defend all the states collectively. I will not deny there was a concern of some of us that perhaps it was growing in the federal government a faction more interested in their close ties to the counting houses, more interested in considering the success of british mercantilism to be our own proper inheritance, and would rather have placed commerce at the forefront rather than agriculture. If you will, evidence of stock jobbing, speculation, as was beginning to occur under the buttonwood tree there on wall street, where the first government was seated. Yes, im not going to deny it. That was the antithesis of what we desired in our revolution, that we desired, if you will, to create a government of, by and for the people, not to create another monarchchy or air stockcracy or gentric. These are the controversies that began to grow in your cabinet. I was certainly aware of it, general, you know that. I was aware of you with your patience and perserverence exemplified and never could have exemplified than any other in the pursuit for the american revolution, was the great example of virtue. You did not want to stand you did not want to stand for a second term, general. That is why i came to visit you, if you recall. I do recall quite well. I am struck by your restating of the bifurcation that i spoke of. If this elder statesman can just suggest it, the reality is we needed the balance right in between. You had said epleurabis uno. It is that balance that brings us to that one. I had seen first hand during the war of american independency the great bain of too strong a Central Government, a monarchy, you cannot get any stronger than that. I have seen the problems of states with too much in the way of rights because we could not get some data for our war. We were in want of everything and relied on states individually to provide those funds. That was very problematic. In the middle, theres balance. You spoke of too strong a Central Government, you spoke of too weak a Central Government. The stronger state government. What you also just elucidated was the fact there was a conflict between bankers and manufacturers and the gregorian society. We need all of it. We need all of it, both sides to come together in the middle. Without that, well, without that, we will face problems going forward. We will lose much of what we had gained. General, if you will allow, with all due respect, we are farmers. 9 out of every 10 americans reside on farms. You have heard me say so often, one of the two most noble vocations of mankind, one forming the cultivation of the soil and the other the cultivation of the mind. Therefore, if we allow commerce and merchandising, mercantilism and speculation, that is want to draw us further and further from the cultivation of the soil and directly providing for the farmer and the nation and the world. I beg your pardon. I know you hear me express it so often. I will nevertheless, in the future, agriculture will receive our first attention. Congress has ias its handmaid. You are speaking to a man who considers himself first and foremost a farmer, i dont need to remind you of that. I am here to say in the strongest of terms this nation lies in the balance to opposing sides. That said perhaps we should move on to another question. Youre right. We do have a question from the audience. You both live on plantations supported by slave labor. Maria wants to know how you feel about keeping people enslaved versus freedom for all people. The only avoidable subject of regret. I shall speak briefly, but i shall tell you that my comments are by way of explanation, not by way of excuse. I have written the institution of slavery is an abomination, and i believe that it is irreconcilable in a democrat republic. That said, i inherited my first slaves when i was a lot of 11 years of age, when my father died. I didnt think much more of them than i did the chair im sitting in right now. They were property. But it was actually mr. Jefferson that once said, and if im saying this incorrectly, please correct me, man of 50 cannot wear the same clothing as a boy of 15. We evolve and we grow and we change. I have done so in my own thinking on the matter. I had said back in 1778, that i want to be quick of this business. I said in 1786 that i never mean to possess another slave through purchase. I want nothing more than to see laws adopted through proper legislation for the slow and the sure abolition of this subject. Personally, i have made arrangements to try and rectify this terrible mistake that i made. But they are of a private nature. General, i have heard you express these sentiments many many times. We certainly have never forgotten what we were able to show the rest of the world, not only Great Britain, those who looked upon us as a mongrel population of radical revolutionaries in north america, that we were able to bring together 13 individual nations. You expressed earlier how distant and despaired all those former colonies were, the difference of religious opinion in one versus a vast difference in another. The difference of free holders prompt of one versus the greater number of free holders in another. Our point at hand, there was slavery in all of those former colonies. We brought ourselves together through a founding principle we must never forget, compromise, compromise and resolution, not only behalf of our generals safety and not only on behalf of common defense but most importantly common good. That is inherent in the first paragraph of our constitution, the drafting which over which you so noblebly presided. My feelings upon this barbous institution of slavery are no less of a concern than yours, no less of a lament than yours. No less of my inheritance than yours. As you know, i have increasingly referred to my family, in particular, inoculating 70 or 80 of my family. I say this distinctly, because throughout all of these generations, inheriting of ourselves, one and the other, slave and master, we are representative nearly, i would say entirely of a world i used in our declaration, consengrenity. It means relationship, it means blood. It is very very difficult to understand how we may be able to extricate ourselves from this. It has been too long in our inheritance. It must be. You know how i feel about that, i expressed and dr. Franklin expressed and mr. Madison, and we know general hamilton. So, i, too, no less than yourself, cannot make excuses. I hope i provided a clarity, and i cannot, cannot condone it. I know for myself, general, the future will be harsh upon me and they have every right to be. You know, thomas, i was listening to you speak, and i was thinking it is my fervent hope that our guests can, at the very least, understand the context of our time. Both of us as younger men read about the ancient romans and the ancient greeks. Sometimes we would, in our reading wonder, what were they thinking . How could they do that in that day and time . Because we struggled understanding the context in those ancient days. I think it is appropriate that at least that voice be heard, which is that had we raised the issue during our Constitutional Convention, it is without doubt that georgia, South Carolina, north carolina, and perhaps our beloved virginia, would have gotten up from the table and turned their backs on the union. It is against that background that i offer that last, just a bit of further explanation. You know, this issue of slavery, i have stopped taking communion. Madam, another question, per chance . Absolutely. You both are supporters of religious freedom. Barbara would like you to talk about the virginia statutes for religious freedom or talk about your religious faith. I think its appropriate the author of those speak to the subject. General, i know that the both of us cannot deny that we were brought up not only in a monarchical system of government, particularly under the power and influence of the world prerogative abiding by the common laws of Great Britain. That also meant we were brought up by the laws of the church of england. No matter what our religious opinions might be and so many that out religious asylum here, in our former colonies, we all still had to abide by the alliance of the ecclesiastical laws and Great Britain. There were two exceptions. Pennsylvania and rhode island, the practice freedom fall religion. I think you observed as many times as i certainly did and the two of us together, when we sat in this house of burgesses of williamsburg the increasing number of baptists coming into virginia and being forced to worship in a church where they disbelieved in that ecclesiastical law. So much so within a year of my being seated in this house of burgesses, you were present, 1769, the house formed a religion for the growing number of petitions being put forth by the growing number of senators refusing to abide by coercion of religion upon a free people. That is really the impetus and influence that brought about finally as the war began and we declared our independency, to draft a law, a bill for religious freedom. There, of course, was the argument in our new Virginia House of delegates for a good seven years. Grant you, i did not see the final success of it, that is the passage of the bill for religious freedom for virginia because i was in france and it was passed in january of 86. As you know, our friend, james madison, had a great deal to do in support of that bill. But you were there at the Constitutional Convention. You did learn my particular concern, i was 3,000 miles away, that our constitution have a bill of rights that would then keep the federal government of our nation in the hands of the people. Of course, madison and i contested upon this. He did not think a bill of rights was necessary. But we know the constitution was finally to be ratified with a bill of rights amended to it. The First Amendment so necessary. I think, evolving, if i may use the word, from the statute or virginia religious Freedom Congress will make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the establishment thereof. Barbara, if youre asking me about my own religious opinion, i can safely say i remain on the vester of st. Annes parish in alba marle, virginia where by i was baptised but i helped to form what has become known as the American Episcopal Church in virginia. I have even designed what i hope will be the very first Episcopal Church in charlotte burg. There are no churches yet but i look forward to that being built. As far as my personal religion, i inquire of no ones religion nor do i bother any with my own. I believe a persons religion must solely be between them and their maker where man has been freer on this globe than here in our nation protected by their government to carry communion with the makers they choose. General, i will tell you, in my opinion, there could be no further stellar i mean that as enlightening example of the freedom for religion, than what you spoke, what you spoke at the jewish synagogue. Truth be told, i had written it down, but you actually accompanied me on that visit to newport, rhode island, where we had taken a package ship from new york. We met with religious leaders of the community of newport. They presented their letters and gave oratory and such. In my response to the hebrew congregation in newport, you are correct. I believe it is fundamental, fundamental in the fabric of this nation when i had written we are a country that will give to bigotry, no ascension, to persecution, no assistance, that everyone can sit happily and safely under their own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make them afraid. With regard to my own personal belief, i am in complete concordance to mr. Jefferson. Religion is a private matter between an individual and their maker. That said, i have rather wide latitude in my acceptance of other religions. I have once written i care not whether a man is a mohamed ann or hebrew or christian of any sect, or has any religion at all. I think that is inherent in the beliefs of this country, at least i hope it is. Another question . Yes. A fun one for you. Brigitte would like to know what qualities you find most admirable about each other . Oh, my. General, im going to speak first. Im going to speak first on this one because i have admired you from afar during my youth. I made that statement earlier today. I knew of you. You were a legend in our household, and remain so throughout my fathers life, throughout my dear widowed mother, who proceeded to rear 10 children as a widow. Your virtue and your effort to continue to persevere, no matter what the vagaries of nature are shown further in public life as a burgess in the old regime and member of our Continental Congress in philadelphia. I was one of your earliest supporters you be commissioned general, the first general of our nations army. And when i took up the office of governor of our commonwealth, you know my support for our troops was as much as i could provide when all our virginia troops were appearing and disappearing with the seasons and the crops. Though i was not here during that Constitutional Convention and though i kept in constant correspondence with james madison, you were foremost in my mind to be put forth nominated and elected the first chief magistrate of our nation. I was honored, as you well know, and i replied in kind to receive your invitation to be the first secretary of our department of foreign affairs, as you acknowledged earlier, becoming the department of state. General, i endeavor to remain loyal in your cabinet. I promised you if you would stand for a second term i would endefrp to desist in my disagreements with our secretary of the treasury. You know well, general, as you took upon your shoulders, that weight, that responsibility as the head of our nation upon which rested the north and the south on your shoulders to keep us enplural. I lament i broke my promise and i simply could not remain silent in what i believed in my heart and my conscience could be harmful to our public good. I thank you for accepting my resignation. I only hope, general, you will ever know, as rest you assured i have written, in every sense of the words, i will continue to consider you a very good man, a very great man, and a very wise man. Thank you for those kind words. Truth be told, thomas, i too regretted your resignation and the breaking of the vow that you made to me. So this is at once a very easy question for me to answer and a very difficult one. It is easy because quite simply, mr. Jefferson is one of the most illuminated minds in all of united america. You would be hardpressed to find and exemplar of greater patronage. A man who would never knowingly do anything that would cause harm to his beloved country. He is a passable father as well, if you will allow me, although we have both failed miserably in our attempts to grow wine making grapes. That is a story for another day. A passable farmer. I had times in my life i considered mr. Jefferson a friend. And i have had times in my life where i have felt an estrangement from him. That is, i believe, the natural arc that passions in a relationship will take one. I should leave that there. Thank you. The role of the parties and general washingtons presidency, i know you touched on this a little bit, but do you believe Political Parties are beneficial . General, you know that i do believe they are necessary. You know that i do believe at the same time the further example of your great virtue is to believe that eplural bessonen should never be a difference of principle as an american and we should be able to cojoin and resolve our differences. You know i sincerely believe in that. You know it was very difficult for me to maintain my silence after you took your second oath of office and convened your cabinet meetings. However, general, i do believe that our creator has created our minds free and free he desires it to remain incapable of any temporal restraint. Therefore, to try and denounce the will, suppress the liberty of ones opinion in matters of politics, which ought to help continue to improve us, let alone the progress of politics to improve the condition of mankind, we must be free to express that, even if it means it may be disagreeable to our fellow american. So therefore i think that political platforms are necessary, and in our nation there has never been a greater opportunity in Human History they can reign free, not as monarchy but reign freely on behalf of the people. That represents a people, when they have that liberty to express their concerns, particularly for that government in whose hands they are entrusted to hold the rains. The raines. The reins. Therefore, i continue to not deny the integrity and hope we continue as one forward but to welcome, if you will, that principle to be supported through difference of opinion and the principle of compromise. You know, mr. Jefferson, epleura bis enum has been stated twice during this conversation. Political party tears that sentiment asunder. However, constructive Political Parties may seem from time to time, they are, in my opinion, and as i have written in my farewell address, a bain for this country, because Political Parties, by their nature, tend to serve the interests of the party and not the interests of the nation. And typically, the selfinterests of a small number of unscrupulous men. Political party tends to elevate individuals, an individual for one party or another, which ever party happens to be in power at a given time. It raises this individual to a point in which we look to them to solve all of our answers. Instead of agreeing to do the hard work we as a nation must do. Political parties do not serve this nation. What they do is create faction and they create division, and while i am not a student of latin, i do believe that is the exact opposite of epleurab epleurabis enum. Okay. Final question, gentleman, what are your hopes for the future of this nation . General, if you will, you should have the last word on this as the last question. You were the first of our chief magistrates, and i know you will ever remain in the hearts of our countrymen, in kind, through many many we hope unending administrations to follow. General, my hopes, i know are yours. I know we hope for our nation to continue to pursue a distinct and direct government of, by and for the people. I am hopeful that all of that which we inherited from our ancestors that has been both detrimental and denying of the liberty and freedom of the family of man, throughout the family of man, may be rectified, and that our nation may continue as a beacon light for the rest of the world and the mass of mankind have not been born with saddles on their back or spurred ready to ride them but that man holds an inalienable right of ignorance and so the reins of selfgovernment. You led us through the war and extensive bloodshed to achieve this goal as a reality. You led us in the formation of our first government, the first line of which, we the people, provides that hope for the future. So therefore, general, i thank you, i will ever thank you for your valor, your honesty, your integrity, your virtue. I thank you for your leadership and i thank you for the hope that you were able to secure for the future of our nation and generations yet unborn. Your words are very kind and they have touched me. I know that they are sincere. My hopes for the nation, for the citizenry of this country, i want contentment, satisfaction, and happiness of the citizenry to continue. I want to see prosperity of our agriculture and commerce and manufacturing. I want to see public credit controlled and that we do not foist debt onto the shoulders of future generations. I hope to see the scourge of war gone forever. I would like us to continue to be a neutral nation, have neither permanent friends or permanent enemies, engage in commerce and trade with all. I would hope we are an asylum for the poor and oppressed of all nations and all religions, that we are a story house and greenery for the entirety of the world. Of course, as we both spoke to earlier, i hope, through legislation, to see slavery abolished. That we will be a shining example for freedom loving nations everywhere, for our country has based itself, our government, on genuine principles of rational liberty and mild and wholesome laws. Finally, i hope that each citizen shall be favorably inclined to do justice to one another, and, thomas, you spoke of a beacon. I want we the people to aspire. I want the citizenry of this country to see a beacon for ourselves to go towards, to aspire for our own aspire in a more perfect union. Mr. Jefferson, its been a rare, interesting and deeply appreciated conversation with yourself and i thank you. As always im your humble and obedient servant. Watch book tvs book festival this weekend. This features online author discussions plus live call in segments. On saturday at 7 00 p. M. Eastern author gale collins with her book no stopping us now. And at 7 45 she joins us for a live discussion taking your phone calls and historian john meacham with his book the truth is marching on. So heres a man born in 1940 who repeatedly in the American South 50 and 60 years ago acted in the tradition of essentially an early christian saint. Followed by a live callin segment at 8 30 p. M. Where hell take your questions. On sunday at 7 30 p. M. Eastern anne with her book cosmos. The first cosmose was an effort to give the broadest possible public coordinates in space and in time. Shell take your live calls and tweets starting at 7 30. And at 8 00 p. M. Rick carlstein discusses his book reagan world. And well take your live calls starting at 8 40 p. M. Watch book tvs coverage of the 20th annual National Book festival this weekend on cspan 2. Next South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham talks about the confirmation process for president Trumps Supreme Court nominee. This conversation is from the annual values voters summit. In the drama over the Supreme Court my next guest will have a starring role. To