Cynicism from traditional politics as we have known it when were addressing the selection of a person to guide the country for a fouryear president , ie the president. They feel its part of the same traditional package. That there needs to be change in the america and that if the change does not emanate from the programs and the agenda and the plans of either one of the two parties, americans have gotten to the point where they are willing to make that change outside of the regular twoParty Structure. How do you think weve got to that point . Youve been involved in politics for a long time including your own run for president , but what is it that got us to the point . How did the parties get disconnected from the people . Theres a combination of factors. First of all, the parties have not been able to be dispensers on the local and state levels. Particularly on those levels. Many of the clubhouses and the district local offices pertaining to partisan politics are no longer in the communities across this nation. It seems to me that people became very disinterested as a result of a series of cumulative experiences in this country that turned them all, watergate, and then during the past 12 years, the fantastic national scandals that came about, the snl situation, and the situation which were still discussing pertaining to the irancontra hearings. People are really fed up. So weve gotten to the point where they are not really holding on to following persons necessarily and either one of the two parties, in other words, theyre saying enough is enough. Were ready to do something to bring about a change. Theyre fed up. As i travel throughout the community, you find people saying the same thing over and over again in different terms. Were fed up. Dont ask me about issues. Im not interested we want somebody thats going to bring about change. Thats the most important word that you hear constantly. Everybody is talking about change. Do you think that that is that your explanation for the appeal of ross perot . I think its part of the appeal. I see ross perot as a man who is a billionaire and who has kept very close what his agenda is. All they know is from the little bit that they have heard is that he has been a man of action. He doesnt talk a whole lot. He gets things done. Hes an activist. And the American People have become are becoming sick expert tired of the same political rhetoric every four years from both parties, only to find that when either one of the two parties finally lands until the white house, that nothing really changes. And so they are willing this timeout to really even follow a ross perot if they have to because they know that their quality of life has deteriorated so badly that he couldnt be worse at responding to their needs than either one of the two phenomenons. Do you think the Democratic Party is going to survive this election cycle . It will survive. Im sure its going to survive. But i also sense a growing, growing disenchantment with the parties that we may have in the very near future, the establishment of a third party in this country, not based on race, but it will be based on class. When you go out into the farm communities, its amazing to hear the farmers tell you, theyll say, its time for a third party. Farmers, they have been loyal to their Republican Party or to the Democratic Party. These are not the people who usually go off in another direction and say well try this or that. You wouldnt think that the farmers in this country being of a radical nature, but theyre fed up. The people are fed up. And i sense this all over the country. I see the possibility of a third party evolving sometimes within the next six to eight years. I wont be the least bit surprised. Are americans idealogical, do you think, or do they want things to get done . I dont think americans are basically idealogical. I really believe that they want to get things done. They have seen their taxpaying dollars being utilized for all kinds of aid, farm aid programs abroad, theyve been waiting on the peace dividend. It was promised that when the war in the gulf is over, well use the money to rebuild our cities, towns and villages and all of it has been nothing but rhetoric. And so now they are willing now to say, we would like to get a change. Can you imagine people getting to the point where they dont know what the candidate really stands for . What is his agenda . And very educated people i have met, black and white, they have said to me straight, i dont care what mr. Perot stands for. Hes a man of action. Thats very dangerous when people get to the point that theyre not really interested in what the gentleman or the candidates agenda is because theyre fed up. Lets go up. The 20th anniversary of your own race for president in 1972. What thinking did you have when you announced for president and how is it received . Well, in the first place, my announcement for president was made on the basis of two states in the union, the people told me mrs. Chisholm, its interesting, weve got to have some change in government. The time has come when we have to move in the direction of hoping that someday, somewhere, somehow a black man or a woman can be president. A black person, rather, or a woman can be president. Mrs. Chisholm, you have knowledge of the issues, youre bilingual, you are titiculate w youre not a phony. In the states of florida and minnesota, those two states, at that time in 1972, florida had less than a 10 black population and minnesota had only about a 3 black population. Why those two states . I had been doing some public speaking and, you know, when i emerged in this country, everybody wanted to know who Shirley Chisholm was that was going to be the first person of her sex and race to enter the United States house of representatives. I did a lot of speaking. And they found out that i was fairly intelligent, fearless, had a knowledge of issues, not afraid and they had a desire that you begin to help bring about change in america. I was afraid. I remember saying to them, you dont run for the presidency of this country on the basis of a moral feeling or commitment, you need money. And i didnt ask for money. But amazingly, within three months time, the state of florida and the state of minnesota raised 10,000 each, then they could call my bluff. I got frightened when they called and said, weve raised money and i wanted to back out. I became afraid because i never believed that this would have happened. And it happened. And then i had to make my mind up. And once i said, no, you cant go back, you threw out a kind of indirect challenge to them and you cant do this to people. So i made my mind up then that i was going to make the bid and all hell broke loose when i announced i was going to run for president. Where did you announce and to whom . I announced at the concord street baptist church. I stand for you as the democratic nominee for president of the United States. [ applause ] in the midst of my congressional district, which was the 12th congressional district, and i announced to the people of the community and a number of friends that were aware of my announcement and came in from cities particularly along the eastern seaboard. The church was jammed. And the excitement that was there and all of the enthusiasm that was there, that a black woman for the first time in the United States of america had the audacity and the nerve to say she wanted to guide the ship of state. She wanted to be president. And i could see the picture now. It was so exciting. But also beneath that excitement, excitement of the idea that persons other than a white male could and should be president was part of the entire drama, why is it in the United States of america only white males could be president . So therefore, here i was, a t twofer, not only a woman but a black person. I was representing a black person and a female person. So my campaign in the beginning was swamped with a lot of blacks and women around me and thats how that got off the ground. Believe you me, it was not easy. After i made that announcement and i began now to visit different parts of the country, assemble a staff and everything, real league of nations staff, hell broke loose. And the reason hell broke loose, how dare you. Have you forgotten that youre a woman . Have you forgotten that youre black . And you want to be president . Who is telling you these things. A lot of the black males had very negative feelings about my announcement and a lot of the white males. It was the males. It was the males primarily that gave me the fit. I could remember so distinctly so many incidents in which they felt that i was going in the wrong direction. Can you think of one incident and name one name . Its 20 years, you know. I know it is. I know that in terms of the black males, it was felt there are so many of them that had the same feeling. They really felt that if indeed a black person is going to make a bid for the presidency, it should not be a black woman. It should be a black male. It gets in the way. And not only that, the black males were very annoyed with me because they were having this big conference in gary, indiana, this black conference, and they were coming together to find a black person to run for president , and Shirley Chisholm had jumped the gun. And they they felt like where does she think shes going . She didnt get our approval. The fact of the matter is, i was cognizant of the fact that i would never get their approval because they would feel that i was crazy. Maybe i needed to be placed in a straight jacket. And so i went ahead on the basis of the fact that there were citizens in this country who raised the money for me to make the bid because these citizens felt that i had what it takes. I possessed leeradership qualities, i had a clear understanding of the issues, i was a fearless woman and i was intelligent. That was all. But the other thing that bothered a lot of folks, i was black and i was a woman. How did the womens groups that existed at the time respond to your candidacy . It was half and half. Some of them responded positively and some did not. But an amazing thing happened to me that shocked me i guess for about three years. That the women in the southern part of the country responded to my candidacy more sincerely and truthfully than the women in the north. I can tell you stories of how women in the south i remember particularly in the state of mississippi where some of the local women, white women lost their jobs because the white male power structure kept reminding them that Shirley Chisholm was a black women and these women would respond, we know shes a black woman, but she was what it takes to bring about change. Women lost their jobs. White women lost their jobs in parts of mississippi because there were not pulled back from my candidacy. In florida, then i landed in tallahassee, the airport was jammed with white and black women. In the north, i found in many instances that while the northern white women were saying, yes, Shirley Chisholm is a part of the feminist movement, shes been a leader. While they were giving me the beautiful rhetoric, they were destroying my slates behind the scenes. So many of them were not truthful. Even today many of the white women in the north, of my generation, not the younger people who dont really know me, get very annoyed when people ask me about, well, you were the first woman who happened to be black to make a series bid for the presidency in terms of going about the country and participating, not the first woman to run for president. But the first woman who did traditionally what you must do, not talking about some of the other women that had run for president. They didnt do what i did. It was just symbolic. And i say, yes, but i must always remind you that it was primarily the women in the south that put me across and so many women in new york get angry. But the truth is the truth. I was surprised. I was very, very surprised at what happened to me in new york. But you must remember in a i did not make the bid for the presidency on the basis of new york. How did your Campaign Play out . I know you campaigned in the primaries and then you did go to the convention. Take us through that process briefly. Well, while i was campaigning of course, i campaigned in about 20, 21 states, i think it was. While i was campaigning, three, four basic things that i met constantly. I met constantly the fact that black men and white men were very, very low in attendance at the rallies and the meetings where i was making appearances. That was very obvious to me. Secondly, i ran into divisions within the particular cities in which i ran because the black people and the white people, particularly the feminists, were actually having disagreements because im a woman and the feminists felt this is our candidate. We brought her in and sponsored her. And the black people of the community, of course im black, they felt, shes one of us. But in many cases, they didnt pay to bring me in so there was they were trying to jump on the bandwagon and the white women will remind her, we brought her so we can schedule her. Many times i had to hide until they got together and settled the disagreements. Ill give you a funny story, i remember when i went into tallahassee, never forget this as long as i live, all of these cars at the airport to meet me. They must have been there must have been about 50 cars, white women, black women, a few white men, a few black men. It was an exciting time. And the plane landed and i got off the plane with my two aides. The black community and the White Community rushed to meet me to put me in a waiting car to take me off to the rally and while they were taking me to their car, the black community, she is one of us. Shes a sister. And they were arguing and i looked over, and i saw this tiny white man. And he was standing and he was grinning and laughing and he had on his hat. Chisholm for president. He was in a world all of his own. And i went over to him and i said thank you so much. Can i get into your car and you take me to the rally and they will stop fighting and fussing. And he said i said, does it move . He said, yes. He was so excited. The moment i got into his car, all of the raucous outbursts stopped and they got in their car trying to follow that car. Ill never forget that so long as long as i live. How many delegate votes did you get at the conviction . 158 votes. Most of them came from the south. If i can remember, if its not the exact figure, its near there, i got about six of the votes from mississippi, i got about 20something of louisianan votes, i got a large number i got more votes from the south and many of the persons that indicated to me, shirley, go ahead, make the run. We have to have catalyst for change, were not shrinking violets. If i did not go to the south, i would have fallen completely flat on my face. Did you get prime Time Television coverage at the convention . Yes. That delegation was sitting in the front was George Wallaces alabamian delegation. George wallace when i was campaigning, governor lindsay and a bunch of us were running. And i remember when i was campaigning, even in florida, George Wallace used to tell the folks, if you cant vote for me in the primary, dont vote for those pointy headed liberals, vote for Shirley Chisholm. People felt that i had entered a pact with George Wallace. And because of that, i lost some floridian vote es. I also caused john lindsay to get out of the race in florida because i was beating john lindsay in the primary. And he had a meeting with me when i returned to new york, he said, shirley, youre moving in on my vote. And i remember telling john, john, my time has come. Ive got to do this. Ill never forget that as long as i live. And it caused a kind of our friendship was never as great as it used to be after i refused to pull out of that race in florida. But i must tell the world that it was the south that really took me across and many of my friends many people in new york are angry from me because they want the world to feel that because i am a new yorker and i did come from new york, that they were the one that pushed me out there. Nothing is further from the truth. What was your message to the convention . My message for the convention basically was that the time has come when we in america can no longer be the complacent, passive recipients of whatever the politics of our nation may decree for us. The time has come where we must look at other americans who have the attributes of leadership, who has the knowledge of issues to make a bid for the presidency of the United States of america. And i have decided to accept this challenge and here i am today, do as you will. Did you ever did you ever think you were on a short list to be George Mcgoverns Vice President ial candidate . I never fooled myself. Look, im fairly intelligent. Im smart enough to know that i couldnt be president , but somebody has to be a catalyst for change. And ive always regarded myself as a catalyst of change. Were 20 years away from watergate. I wonder if during that year, as an inside politician sort, did you see or detect or wonder about any of these what later came to be known as dirty tricks occur . Yes, because i was the victim to some out in california. The people in california called me, donald, he had circulated some literature about and donald is whom . He was one of the tricksters in the nixon campaign. And his job was to derail the candidacies of the democrats who were running. And he said some awful things about humphrey and musky, but look at what he said about Shirley Chisholm. Shirley chisholm had been released from a Mental Institution and he runs fecus on the walls of her home. What device did he leaflets. How do you know it was from donald . Because my friends in california sent me all the leaflets that was put out by donald at that time. He did not say he did it. But as a result of the watergate hearings it came out that he did it. It was a very negative and untruthful things that were said about me was also said about humphrey and others. The most slimy types of remarks and my friends in california alerted me to it. And later he apologized to all of us. Personally . Not personally, but by the newspapers do you think those tricks had any affect on your campaign . No. Not really. There are some other people, what was Jesse Jackson doing at the time that you were running . What was his role in politics . Jesse jackson never supported me for the presidency, although i supported him in 84, 88. He called on me to do a lot of things. But Jesse Jackson never supported me for the presidency. Did you ask for his support . At that time it was early in the game back in 72 and Jesse Jackson was aligned with the black power boys that were meeting in indiana trying to stop me. He was a part of that group who felt that a black woman who didnt consult the brothers have no business running for presidency. And i understood that. Im not holding it against them. I understood why. Theyre very why did you run for congress. Were going backwards here. Were back to 1968. All right. A new district had been created in the borough of brooklyn giving an opportunity for the first time for the thousands of black and hispanics peoples a chance to send one of their own to the United States house of representatives. When that came out, it was felt, once again, that a black man should get the seat. And a group of representatives from Community Organizations held a series of interviews of about five of us who wanted the seat. And they vote after hearing the five of us on the basis of issues, where we stood, our Community Work and what have you. The overwhelming majority voted for me. Although i was a woman. And this sent them up the wall. If i have survived, if i survived during those years that i was moving up politically, i could survive anything. I cried many nights because i was misinterpreted, she wanted to take things away from the black men. All of this crazy stuff that was coming off the wall. I didnt let it affect me that much because i understood our history. I understood why the men would feel this way. They would feel this way because after they felt the time had come for black men it was black mens turn and nobody could get in the way, including black women. I understood that. But it was very hurting. Many of the things that they said about me, many of the m misunderstandings, they gave the feeling that i was some kind of horrible little monster. What did they say . They said that she has no right to be running for the congress. If indeed a black person is going to the congress, it should be a male. Were there personal attacks . There were some personal attacks. Not many. Most of them was this male bit. You ran against james farmer. Yes. Was that in the general or the primary. That was in the general election he was the republican he was the republican. And he was what at that time . He was the republican. He had a national reputation. Hes the leader on c. O. R. E. A bright, articulate man with a beautiful voice and he was giving everyone the impression that he could mow down Shirley Chisholm. Did he live in the district . He lived in new york. They looked at me and said a school teacher, what does she know . We really had a truck going across the Manhattan Bridge watching him leave his home in Lower Manhattan to come into brooklyn every day. He wanted that newly created seat in brooklyn. There are three things that helped me, i think, to eventually win. Number one, he was not a resident of brooklyn. He had i understood he had secured a little room just for the purposes of that, what have you. Number two, he didnt realize how fluent in spanish i was. And so when we went into the hispanic we had a pretty large spanish area. I would speak in english and then i would speak in spanish. And the first time james farmer heard me speak spanish, i see his Mouth Opening now. And thirdly, james got to the point where this thing was so strong with black men during this time. He got to the point where every morning when the people would be going to work, he had these viral muscular looking young black men on sound trucks giving out his literature and the drums beating, send a man to the house. And i began to feel badly about no, dont feel badly. Accept the challenge. I knew and i always had a feeling there were more women in the district than men. I went down to the board of elections with a couple of persons and checked the rolls. 2. 7 women to one man in the district. And i went back to my headquarters and i sent out a call to the Women Leaders in the district, black, white, italian, jewish. We have to go to war. That was it. And we mobilized. How much did you win . 31. Mobilized. You go to washington. And tell the story of your Committee Assignment. [ laughter ] when i got to washington it was understood that freshman should be seen and not heard. They placed me on an agricultural committee, subcommittee on forestry and rural villages. For so many years, the minority persons in brooklyn, new york, never had a representative. And theyre going to put the first representative on a committee on rural forestry and villages. I thought this is madness. I told the congressman how i felt. They said, youll get your commitment assignment eventually but you have to take the assignment that the committee gives you. And the men told me, they said youre right. But you shouldnt rock the boat. And i spoke with brock adams, he was the first white congressman that befriended me. He was the secretary of transportation and now he i dont know what hes doing, hes no longer in congress because of a series of misadventures that betook him. But i told brock, i told brock when what i was going to do. I was going to put the an amendment in and ask for another assignment that has a little bit more relevancy. Brock said, shirley, you cant you can do it but, you know, youre committing political suicide before you get started. I heard that phrase about 300 times in my political life. I have to do it. The word got out, Shirley Chisholm is going to challenge the speaker, the chairperson who was the sfeekpeaker at t time . Ohara from massachusetts mccormick. John mccormick was the speaker at that time. So i felt now the word had gotten out, it had leaked out that Shirley Chisholm was going to cause a little raucous. I called the speaker and i told the speaker, mr. Speaker, i want you to know that tomorrow, i am going to ask for a change of Committee Assignment because it does not make sense for me to be sitting even for two years on a committee that has absolutely no relevancy, even if they had put me on the committee that dealt with hot lunch programs, it might have made more sense. What foolishness is this . I said to the chair, to the speaker, i forget i was speaking to the speaker. I was so upset. I said, mr. Speaker, im going to have to do my thing. That was the favorite phrase at that time. And the speaker said to me, youre going to have to do what . I said, excuse me, mr. Speaker, im going to have to do that which i have to do and go with it. He said, you know, youll be beaten down. I said ill take the chance. He didnt like it. That day, a lot of the men dont come to the democratic caucus. It had almost 100 attendance. They had made a plan and that plan was when Shirley Chisholm asked to be recognized in the caucus, four or five men who had seniority would raise their hand and the speaker would recognize them. After a while, Shirley Chisholm will get tired jumping up and down like a jack rabbit. They dont know me. I found myself going up and down and i know they could see me because im very highly visible. I decided to do one thing. I was so mad. I had some notes. I put the notes in my seat. And i walked down without the speaker calling, right down to the well of the house and the men anything as a there will be order in this house. And the funniest thing happened. After i got down to the well of the house, i became frightened. What am i going to do . Well, i stood there. And the speaker, i didnt know he could hop off the dais so quickly, he ran over to mills and they put their heads together. Whatever it was, the speaker came back and he recognized wilbur mills. And im standing right there and mills said, he wanted to frighten me, for what purpose does the gentlewoman, the great empire of new york stand in the well of the house . [ laughter ] and i thought when he did that, by using those tones, he had a deep voice, that i was run out of the well of the house. And i say, as calmly as i knew how too. Mr. Chairman, for the past 35 minutes i have been attempting to gain recognition and im a very highly visible person in this house of representatives. For whatever your reasons may be, the speaker has not recognized me. So i thought the best thing to do was to come to the well of the house because i have something very important to say. Said the gentlewoman from the borough of brooklyn, you will have five minutes. And i spoke out, and it says, it seems that all of you i want you to know, im putting in an amendment to ask for a different assignment, an assignment that has a little more relevancy to the district that i represent, not a subcommittee on forestry and rural villages. Nobody had done this in the house. I was a bad child. But you know something, they went back, had a meeting and they did give me a committee that had a little bit more relevance. I was placed on the veterans committee. And thats how after i did that, others came in, and they started to put them in crazy committees, they would speak up whether or not they got the assignment. And they later told me that they wanted to make sure that they would keep me quiet and keep me hidden before i started blossoming in the house and they were shocked when i told them, i knew thats what you all were trying to do, but now you know the kind of person i am. Who is your closest leadership ally in the house in those days . Who did you look to . Did you have a mentor, or did you even need one . I didnt have a mentor because even though the gentlemen whats funny about the house of representatives in those days, the democrats, they admired me and they liked my spunkiness and my feisty spirit. But i think theyre a little bit afraid to be too closely aligned with me because they knew that the speaker didnt look on me too kindly because i was rebellious in terms of not accepting assignments that didnt make sense. And of course because of the system going to the air shows and all of this, they wanted to be sure that theyll get there first. So i never i was walking down the hall, two of the congresspersons, and the speaker was getting together his list of those persons who will go to the great air show. This is the paris yeah. And all of a sudden both of them disappeared from me. Because the speaker was coming down the hall and they didnt want the speaker to really feel that they were that close to me. It was a strange thing. Those guys live on the basis of getting their tidbits. You can manage, i was in the house, i didnt go on both speakers, tip oneil, they used to tell me, we just dont know what to do with you. One time they asked me, dont you want to go to the air show . And i told them, straight, if i wanted to go to the air show, ii could pay my fare. I didnt realize until 18 years later how progressive i was, how and why the gentlemen and the people in parties looked at me the way they did because i did things that you were not supposed to do. But in the process of doing them, i opened up new approaches where i paid for it in terms of not getting all the nice perks and everything. That didnt bother me. I didnt go there to get perks. Why did you quit . From the very inception of my political career, when i was in the new york state legislature, i said from the inception of my political career, never do i intend to spend all of my creative and productive years in the political arena. I never intended to be dragged out of in an oxygen tank or dying and what have you. And what also supplemented my leaving was that the Reagan Administration had come in and i saw so many things that we had done during the Civil Rights Movement and what have you just beginning to fade away before my eyes and my face. And i also saw that people back in my own district were taking it out on me because i could no longer deliver like i used to be able to deliver under the Carter Administration and what have you. And so i decided, this was the moment then for me to leave and go out and do other things because of the fact they knew from the inception of my career i didnt intend to spend all of my adult life in politics. What did you go to do . I became a visiting professor. I love the young people. And so i conduct a lot of seminars. I do a lot of speech writing for politicians. Are you going to tell us no, i will not. I cant do that. I want to ask you a few more things about congress. What would you change about congress to make it more effective . I would change this basically, i do not think that the congress of the United States is representative of the populations that make up this country. This country is a multifaceted, multiracial, multiethnic land how could you change it constitutionally . Im talking about whats happening now. More women getting out there and running and winning, more hispanics and africanamericans accepting the challenge. It doesnt mean that you will necessarily win, but you have to have the guts and courage of your convictions to help to bring about change through your own actions. Isnt that happening now . Its happening now. Its a wonderful thing. Im so glad that 20 years later that i have lived to really see what is happening and of course for the year 1992, the impetus to making the women to feel they have to go out there is when they looked at the days of the hill thomas hearing and saw all of these white men making decisions and no women having a voice. Women said, weve got to get out there and start running whether or not we win, we have to accept the challenge. Had you been on the Senate Judiciary committee, what do you think would have happened . I would not have been able to get the votes. But i certainly would have spoken out about the way in which they were questioning ms. Hill. I did not like it for one moment. Orrin hatch and this other guy from wyoming simpson. Particularly those two. And then when Arlen Specter its a good thing i wasnt on the committee because they probably would have had somebody take me out. You watch you had it . I couldnt take my eye off the screen to make a meal. A fairy story that was happening. The republicans had made their minds up they had to get Clarence Thomas on the bench and the democrats had made their minds up that they had to make sure he didnt get on the bench. Politics being what it is, everybody engages in all kinds of tricks and what have you. It was how they were doing it and what they were doing to that woman. It just did something to me. One of the Big Questions is, do you believe him or her . Its hard. Because neither one of us were there. We dont know what really happened. Do you have a feeling in your gut . I have a feeling that there was something on both sides of that issue. And i dont choose to go in that. There was something on both sides of that issue. I didnt have anything to do with politics. Thats all im going to say. How do you think black leadership would have evolved had Martin Luther king remained alive . I think if nothing else, Martin Luther king was the one black leader in this country in this era that had the uncaning ability and skills and articulation to issue a call to bring the black leaders together, the majority of black leaders together. Theres no one today that can bring all of the black leaders together, whether theyre conservativeoriented leaders, progressives or what have you. And Martin Luther would have outlined for us, give us an agenda of where we should be going. But he commanded the respect. He had the integrity and the principles which a lot of leaders dont have today. Theres not the integrity. Theres no the principles. Theres a lot of political expediency that goes on. It doesnt emanate from the heart. Its what you can get out of it and what have you. And i think that had Martin Luther king been alive today, that we may not have found ourselves in a kind of position in which there doesnt seem any longer to be any purpose amongst the black leaders pertaining to an agenda for the future for our people. Its very troubling to me. How much longer do you think that race will be a central issue in American Public affairs . It will always be a central issue. Racism this country was founded in racism. It is the bugaboo of america that had made america so open to attacks. Black folks were only counted as three fifths of a person. This country was born and bred in racism. I dont believe well ever really eradicate racism in america. However, i must say honestly, that there have been improvements down through the years. God help us if we didnt have any. But there have been improvements right now at this point in time i sometimes feel that were back in the 1950s as i travel throughout the country once again and i see what is happening. Sometimes i think were back in the 1950s because there has been an erosion of so many of the gains that we made. I dont think we could ever get rid of racism in america. Im sorry to say it, but my gut tells me that. I hope im wrong. Thats the way i feel at this moment. Have you ever thought of yourself as a victim . Of racism . Well, i use the word victim because theres a lot of discussion about the victim mentality of minorities. Not necessarily blacks, and theres the criticism that the black leadership encourages the sense of victimization because then that provides a rational for seeking help from the government. And i wonder if you accept that or is there another way to go . I dont see it that way at all. I have to put it in this kind of perspective. I have to put it in the fact that whatever these leaders have been able to utilize that has worked in some way and it has redounded to the benefit of africanAmerican People and it was successful that they feel in many instances that this is the way they should always go. Theyre not very experimental. Theyre not very creative in terms of looking at new ways of doing things. Not only blacks, white leaders, you always become a little bit satisfied and complacent if you found something that has worked, even if it is no longer appropriate for the times in which we are living. I think more a kind of frailty of human nature that does this kind of thing. Thats why even today everybody is kind of upset and worried about the fact that, for example, a ross perot is out here. Who is he . Hes not a democrat. Hes not a republican or whatever. And yet everybody is falling behind him. Youre going away from tradition. Ross in his own strange way is being creative, if i could say that and everybody is focusing on ross. Instead of focusing on the agendas that will make the American People who have become cynical return. Theyre too busy focusing on mr. Perot instead of correcting it. This year, in my humble opinion, is going going to be a bloodles minipolitical revolution. I see it. I see it coming. Its going to be some convention both at the Republican Party convention and the Democratic Party convention. I know whereof i speak. Well, why then, if thats so, why do you think that the Republican Convention will be something other than just a renomination of the president and the Vice President . I think that because surprisingly enough, a large number of republican women and some of my best friends are republicans. A large number of republican women are going to the convention saying theyre not going to take this antiabortion issue i dont think thats the word they used anymore. Youre going to raise the floor. I can see the Republican Convention a kind of outburst and i put the word outburst in quotation marks around that whole abortion issue. Thats how i see it at the Republican Convention. Its going to come that way. At the democratic convention, when you know that in the city of new york has already indicated that youre going to have all kinds of delegations in the streets. First of all you have to find a place to keep them away. Youre going to have the proabortion forces, the prochoice forces. The homeless build their own tent out there. Youre going to have the Gay Community who say that none of the republicans are paying any attention to our issues. And because new york is a very overt, outspoken place where anything and everything goes, i see and i see but i also hope that that convention does not come about like the one in 1968 in chicago where you had all of these different groups out there rebelling. And all the people in america could see on the screen where the policemen i am very concerned. Well, in the time remaining, you retired from politics in 82 and went into teaching. What have you been teaching . Ive been teaching the role of women in america. Ive been teaching the history of black women in america. Ive been teaching congress, power, politics. And my classes are very unusual in that i do not get up before the class and pontificate. I conduct a class in terms of my experiences, give them some basic premises pertaining to all three of these areas. And theres a constant dialogue going on in this class too between my students. And many of the supervisors and persons in Higher Education who have witnessed my classes have made me feel very proud. They say your classes are the most exciting alive classes we have ever seen. The students in fact wherever i go, the students and professors ask me to come back. I want to do as many universities as i can. As now, i speak to you, i have been in over 225 universitys and colleges in this country during the past 35 years of my life. Theyve given to me the greatest kinds of experiences. I love young people and i dont feel that we feel enough time with them. And so at this stage of my life, i consider myself a stateswoman. I consider myself a mentor. And i consider myself a person whos had the opportunity to be able to pass on to the next generation the benefit, whatever benefit they can get out of the experiences i have had in this country. How do you explain all the press reports and surveys that show Voter Participation of young people way down and even interest way down . Theres a reason for it, because theyve been listening to all this rhetoric. Theyve been listening to the fact that the peace dividend will come back to the people of this country and they wont have to worry about whether or not theyre going to have to complete their fouryear educations. These kids, ive talked to them, theyre frightened to death of whether or not theyre going to be able to finish their education or be able to go to college because the tuition rates are so high. Their parents and grandparents talk about koreagate, billygate. They become cynical. Your own students who you say are rather engaged and intellectually alive, do you think they go out of your classes and vote and become active citizens . A lot of them do. A lot of them do. Its an amazing thing they refuse this is amazing to me. A disproportionate number of them do not register as democrats or republicans. They register as independents. When i have talked to them in private conversations, theres basic premises in democratic philosophy in america. We are not interested in a Party Philosophy necessary. We want to look at the person, what the persons pat hetern of behavior will indicate to us. Theyre not as hung up on traditional parties as we older folk are. Im founding that out. Theyre not as hung up on the Party Structure as we are. How old are you sf. Im 67 years of age. How old do you feel . I feel like 37. What are you plans for the future . I live my life now one day at a time. I have no specific plans. Since my husband passed away five years ago, people really came back to me and said shirley, we need that righteous voice of indignation out there. Come back and let your voice be heard. Run again for something. I said, my time has past. I would rather train and mentor and help younger blacks and younger women who are coming along. Perfectly content with the life that im leading at this point. Its probably early for me to ask this of a 37yearold woman, but because of i think youll get it. [ laughter ] that makes me older than you. Yeah. What would you like for your epitaph . Its interesting you should ask me that. I would like i dont want to be i dont want to be necessarily known as the first africanamerican to be elected to congress or the first female who happened to be africanamerican to be elected. I would rather like to be, my epitaph to read, Shirley Chisholm, a catalyst for change in the 20th century who happened to be an africanamerican female. I want to be known as a catalyst for change. Thats how i regard myself. Shirley chisholm. Thank you very much. Certainly. Thank you. Youre watching American History tv. Every weekend on cspan3, explore our nations past. Cspan3, created by americas Television Companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Weeknights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight cspan cities tour takes you across the United States and through time as we explore history. Some of the stops are in nashville, the rock and roll hall of fame in cleveland and the birth place of jazz music, new orleans. Watch tonight beginning at 8 00 eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. Bidens record is a shameful roll call of the most catastrophic portrayals and blunders in our lifetime. He has spent his entire career on the wrong side of history. Our current president s failed in his most basic duty to the nation. Hes failed to protect us. Hes failed to protect america. And my fellow americans, that is unforgivable. The first president ial debate between President Donald Trump and former Vice President joe biden is tuesday, september 29th at 9 00 p. M. Eastern. Watch live coverage on cspan. Watch Live Streaming and on demand at cspan. Org or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Up next,
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