Witnessed the death of three of the four as well as her own husbands assassination. Though her life was filled with tragedy, she relished in their success. As we focus on the civil war years, one of the defining moments in our countrys history, a look at the life and times of Mary Todd Lincoln, one of the most complex first ladies ever to live in the white house. Thanks for being with us for cspan continuing series on first ladies influence and image. We invite to history advisers for the whole series to be our guests for this program. Let me introduce you to roslynter borg penn. And Richard Nortan smith our guest and at our table is the director of five president ial libraries including the Abraham Lincoln library in springfield, illinois. Thank you both for being here. Mary todd lincoln and this is a question for both, well start with richard, is viewed in broad strokes, bouts of depression, criticism of her lavish spending and and indulgent mother and what do you see. Oh, boy. That is why we need 90 minutes to get at the nuances. She matters immensely. Lincoln is the Great American story and shes an integral part of the story. We dont make movies about adams or others. She remains 150 years later someone who is symbolically divisive, perhaps. To some people shes a harrow wynn and to some people shes a victim. But sheer a surprising victim as well. I like her because shes so complex. And i say i like her. I go through Elizabeth Keckly to get to Mary Todd Lincoln. Who was Elizabeth Keckly. Her dressmaker and her companion didnt live at the white house but spent a good deal of time there. And an africanamerican. Yes. Former enslaved who purchased her own freedom. And was interviewed along with three or four other women to become the first ladys seamstress or modestes they call it. She made the most beautiful dresses for her. What do you learn about Mary Todd Lincoln through her eyes. I dont know if you would call it her narrative or her book behind the scenes givesa concrete sketch of the relationship she had with her for four years. And just reading what lick beth keckly tells you an idea of how complex and hurt and victimized she was. It is the most empathetic portrait we have of mary. Well queer going to plunge into the white house years as we begin our nuanced image of mary lincoln and as we do this we call her mary todd but if i look behind you at the wall of first lady signatures she signed mary lincoln. Where did the Mary Todd Lincoln reference come. Was it modern or did she use it. It was modern. She didnt, from what i understand. That was a 20th century and lincoln famously said, mocking the preten shus of his family, god only one name and those of kentucky needed two. She probably laughed the first thousand times she heard that joke. But hes 64 and shes 52 if that. And he had a habit of introducing them as themselves as the long and the short of it. Another joke she probably endured more than enjoyed. Well, i might tell you at outset, the programs work because theyre interactive. In a little while well get to your phone calls and put the phone number on your screen and if you have a question via facebook go to cspan Facebook Page or tweet us. With a question or comment make sure you use the firstladies. So 1860 as the election is won. Lets take a brief look at the country. There were 31 Million People in 33 states, 11 states were to break off soon thereafter to form the Confederate States of america. That was 16 growth and the continue is continuing to grow. 3. 9 million slaves in the country. 12. 67 of the population and the largest cities in the country, new york city, philadelphia, brooklyn and baltimore, that was the country that Abraham Lincoln inherited in the election in 1850. So they arrive the athe white house, set the scene for us about the 1860 election and how tumultuous the politics were as the lincolns arrived. Well the protocol process has broken down. There were four parties that ran in 1960. The Democratic Party which was the one truly National Political organization split into northern and southern wings, divided over the issue of slavery. Steven douglas, lincolns longtime rival and indeed apparently at one point romantic rival for marys hand is the democratic nominee from the north. Vice president john brokenridge is the southern democratic candidate. The old wig party, they had disappeared and they nominated someone named john bell from tennessee on a middle of the road support for the constitution platform and that left this new party, the republicans. Which were defined as being antislavery but not radically antislavery. They were not abolitionists, they were all about containing the spread of slavery. And lincoln won with just under 40 of the vote. And the sheer news of his election as you say led seven Southern States almost immediately to secede. The white house that the first lady inherited had been the domain of harriet lane which was beloved and admired for her social skills as the country was fracturing. What was the citys view of the new first Lady Mary Lincoln as she came to the white house. Well Catherine Clinton one of the biographers said in reality that she broke the elite virginia scheme of things. And many of the congressional wives and some of the women who were very important during the virginia times were resentful. And they lampooned them. They lampooned lincoln and they lampooned her. And the sad thing is that she was a very intelligent, very highlyeducated woman from a good family if terms of what you consider wealthy about families. But they treated her very badly. And the other thing that might have hit her and i dont know if anybody talked about it. Washington was a swamp. Deceaseridden. In many ways. When i came to washington it was mosquito ridden and that wasnt 150 years ago. So im sure she had a difficult time dealing with that. Plus she complained about how drab and dirty and not dirty necessarily but worn and drab the white house itself was. Some of the furniture was back to the days of dolley madison. So she had a lot to worry about. And that is important. Because if you think of the repercussions of this woman who is arriving from kentucky, referred to as the republican queen, mocked by people who really dont know her who are willing to assume the worst about these back woods lincolns, that puts a real chip on her shoulder in a sense. Even before she arrives in the capital. And it may explain some of her shopping, some of her preoccupation with fixing up the white house for example that has become part of her legend. And in adorning herself. We have a quote from her herself that her rational for why she spent so much money on her own attire. I must dres myself in costly materials. People scrutinize every article that i wear with critical curiosity. The very fact of having grown up in the wests me to more searching observation to keep up appearances i must have money, more than mr. Lincoln can spare for me. But what is interesting when she interviews Elizabeth Keckly, she said how much are you going to charge for your dresses because i cant afford to pay you a great deal. And keckly said, well, ill be reasonable. And they came to an agreement. Now my theory is she wanted a lot of dresses but can he font afford to pay lavishly for a lot of dresses. So on her budget she was able to get what she wanted because keckly agreed not to overcharge her. And maybe that is one of the reasons she got the job. Paint a portrait of what life was like in the Lincoln White house for the Family Living there and for the public using the space. What was it like in those days. It was astonishly open to the public. It is hard will believe in the middle of the great civil war that is raging is that twice every week the president would throw open his office, people could line up as long as they could wait for what he called his Public Opinion baths. For most of them they were job interviews. These were mostly jobseekers. And ms. Lincoln, they sort of finessed themselves around all of these folks. They were the two boys at the beginning of course. Willie who was ten years old when they arrived in washington and his younger brother ted. His older Brother Robert todd had gone off to harvard and they had a fourth brother who they lost years earlier in springfield. Mrs. Lincoln looked upon the white house very much as a symbol of this nation and took very seriously her responsibilities. Not only as a hostess, but as the woman responsible for the appearance of the house. And, remember, this is a time when the country is literally coming apart at the scenes to the symbolic america of americas house is perhaps even greater. Just like the president s order that the half finish the dome of the capitol is going to be completed. In some ways she took the same view of the white house. A number of years ago this network produced a documentary on the white house. And we visited the lincoln bedroom. Well show you a clip from the documentary next to see the kind of spending that mary lincoln did on the furniture of the white house. The bed dates back to 1861. Bought by Mary Todd Lincoln as part of her white house refurbishing, it is eight feet long, six feet wide, made of carved rodewood. Mary todd lincoln had draped the lincoln bed with the purple and gold and fringe and lace. Really high victorian decorating. And we did have later photographs not contemporary with lincoln but the bed still dressed the way she had dressed it and so we did that again. This is this bed bought by mary lincoln and the most wellknown piece of historic furniture in the house that holds the key to understanding the lincoln familys time here. The famous bed that was one of mary lincolns many extravagant purchases as she began a campaign when she got here to redecorate this entire building. They held a bill back forever so lincoln wouldnt see it because she spent much money and he saw it and flew in a rage and said it would stink and while soldiers needed things she was buying things for the house. This old bed is where in february of 1862 lincolns middle son willie died after a bout with typhoid fever. After that mary would never go into willies room again. She never looked at the bed again. She never was able to absorb the sons death, willies death in the white house. And lincoln finally said to her once, he took her to the window and he made her look across the river at Saint Elizabeths the Mental Hospital and said mother if you dont have to get ahold of yourself, youre going to have to be put there. Now is the time to absorb it. The president by contrast would hole up in willies room often on a thursday, which is the day of the week he died, just to grieve. How the lincolns handled their grief goes to how we see them today. In the case of mary, really unhinged her. It was the final blow. In a curious sort of way, the war melded the desperate elements of lincolns personality and his grief and sense of loss over willie somehow morphed into the nations sense of loss. Both sense of loss in millions of homes throughout the union. I have a different interpretation about the socalled extravagant spending on the white house. Congress allotted her 20,000. Four years later they allotted 125,000 for refurbishing. So she doesnt have enough money to spend. Lets put it that way, how could she spend so much if they only allocated 100,000. She over spend the 20,000 by 6,000. It is not a huge amount. But there was a war raging. So the politics of it. It was part of the legend. It is part of mary lincoln legend. This woman out of control, shopaholic. On her grief over the sons death in the white house, a political aspect to that too. How did the country react to her extended mourning when there were so many sons of mothers dying on the battlefield both north and south. That is true. She basically disappeared for over a year. Her social life as first lady ended for over a year. She gave orders, for example, for the marine band to stop playing their concerts on the white house grounds. That was suggested, perhaps they could be moved to lafayette park. She said, no, her grief was to great. She indulged herself, even beyond the standard of the day. Her come patriot was queen at the loss of prince albert. What finally brought her out of her grief . I think it is hard to determine. Because she was continually being vilified. And maybe it was when her son robert, who was really a disappointment in the long run, had her incarcerated, in essence, sent to a Mental Institution. I think she woke up then and decided im going to get out of here. And she fought very hard and was able to mobilize support to get her out of the Mental Institution. But i dont think she ever really recovered from the loss of willie. I do think it is not just willie. It is the loss of edward and then the loss of willie and the loss of her husband and then ted dies. In the beginning she lost her mother at age 6 and then was afflicting with the classic wicked mother syndrome which sent her to springfield in the first place. Her life is shattered by loss. Let me move from the personal to the political mary lincoln and tell me about how well she served as a political partner to the president. I want to go to Elizabeth Kecklys book because she writes her intuition about the sincerity of individuals was more accurate than that of her husband. Did lincoln listen to her observations . Was she a good help made in that regard. I think she was. I think she tried to advise him but some of his advisers didnt rant her to be interfering and that was definitely the case when he was dying and they took her from the room and wouldnt let her in to mourn as he died. Which was a traditional thing in her culture. The wife stays with the husband until he dies. That he robbed her of that. I think they were threatened by her sense of significance. Gary robinson asked on twitter about mary lincoln create enemies out of social rivals and if so who was her main anning to onnist. She had a number of rivals. Kate chase, the daughter of the secretary of treasury salmon chase who made no secret about his lust to replace lincoln in the white house and kate was quite the bell of the ball. And i think its safe to say mrs. Lincoln had no great love lost for kate. But part of the legend and its accurate, the stories of her accompanied the president to the battlefield near the end of the war. The sight of a general edwin ords wife riding alongside the president. She lost it. The reason the grants did not go to fords theater is because julia grant did not want to risk having another confrontation with this very unpleasant woman as far as she knew. And what did the white house staff think of her . They liked her. Only four of the staff remained when they came to the white house, when the lincolns came to the white house. They brought in new staff, primarily freed blacks who really worked very well with her. And from what i could gather, those who were interviewed talked about her in a very positive way. She got along very well with them because they were the ones who helped to raise her after her real mother, her birth mother died when she was coming up in kennedy. Lincolns two personal secretaries didnt use the best descriptions of her. Young men with their own reasons to recent. And vice versa. She was hell cat and he was the tycoon. That is the names they referred to. In his case with great affection. But in her case was probably more so. David on twitter, outside of washington what was the perception of the first family . Do we know . That is a great question. Again, i think if you read the press of the day, certainly there was a considerable amount of criticism. Unfortunately, if she had been in some ways more press conscience, we know how much time she spent visiting soldiers in hospitals, writing letterer for soldiers who were unable to write themselves. Taking fruit and other gifts. And yet she never took reporters along with her. If she had been a little bit more in a sense pr conscience who might have known but when she went on her trip north, the press followed her. Went into every store she went into. That is what they reported. Those kind of things. First caller is ron watching in everett, washington. Youre on. Go ahead, please. Yes. Hello. As youve indicated, there continues to be great controversy among historians and biographers over the lincoln marriage. The first school about it is that it presented in a biography by Wayne Herndon based on his interviews with president ial midwest friends and colleagues and neighbors and servants, et cetera, many of whom reinforced that she was a domestic hell on earth whose frequent outburst continues broomstick attacks and multiple thrown objects including a piece of fire word reporting her husband getting a broken nose. It is secondly presented as a love story and reflected deep skepticism over herndons informants and recollected testimony but was evasive about the superabandance evidence to the contrary. In the past two decades lincoln scholars have given more credence to the oral and written testimony and this is culminated in michael burlinggames two volume buy ago raffi of lincoln. Are you going in the interest of time. You want to know which is thinking is correct. James criticized the hostility toward mary lincoln which he said narred the narrative with every negative portrayal and not offering the evidence in biography so my question is what is your guest historians assessment of burlingame depiction of mary lincoln and what is the recent Motion Picture of her. Thank you with the call. Are you familiar with the burlingame assessment . I think it is safe to say that michael is rather hostile to mary and certainly amassed a great deal of evidence to support his view. What i find fascinating is just as in the roosevelt camp, there are eleanor and franklin people and there are mary and abraham people. There will people that will not sit on the statement sage so committed to one or the other. That is how passionate the historians feel. But abraham seemed to be committed to mary. And you know what, in some ways that is the ultimate test. Let me ask your caller hes not there any more. Just the response. I wonder if he read Catherine Clintons biography of mrs. Lincoln where she engages herndon and you have to really look at the reasons why people write biographies or books and herndon was angry with lincoln and later took it out on mary. That is the way from what ive heard about it. I havent read the book. But from what i could see, that you have to look at the motive behind the book. I asked what you both thought of the most modern portrayal and that is the new movie the Lincoln Movie. I thought it was wonderful precisely because it transcends all of these camps. To me it is the most portrayal of mary and of the marriage that ive ever seen. Do you agree. Oh, i agree. A quote about her own view in the public perception, she writes i seem to be the scapegoat for both north and the south. And were going to show you next another video of her refuges here in washington was a summer cottage not far from the capitol and the white house is selfcalled the soldiers home. Well visit that next. President lincolns cottage was a seasonal home for the lincoln family. And mary lincoln really pushed for the move out here to this soldiers home because she saw it as a place for her family to have more privacy than at the white house. Were in the mary lincoln room which is not part of our typical experience at the cottage. But we call it the mary lincoln room because when the lincolns were living out here in the summer of 1863, mary lincoln is involved in a pretty serious carriage accident. Some believe that the carriage had been tampered with and this was an early assassination attempt on lincoln. When mary lincoln suffered the carriage accident and the drivers seat separates from the carriage and the horses are startled and take off and mary lincoln has to leap out of the carriage in order to save herself. She suffered a head injury. After shes in the accident, shes treated, we believe, down at the white house. But then in after shes treated she comes out here to the soldiers home to make her recovery. And we believe that she did that here in the mary lincoln room. Not only is it the most isolated bedroom on the second floor but the only one with windows on three different walls allowing for better cross breezes to make her recovery more comfortable. But in 1862 there is also the imperative of having a more private place to mourn and to grieve after the death of their son willie. Willie lincoln passed away in february of 1862 and mary lincoln was going about the traditional cultural and social expectations of a woman in mourning and felt like she couldnt do this effectively down at the white house and so for her there was a family and a personal imperative to come out here to the soldiers home to have a place to grieve the loss of her son. One of the best documented events that actually took place here at soldiers home is a seance hosted after the death of Willie Lincoln and noah brooks writes about that account in his diary. Lincoln on one occasion felt that mary lincoln was being taken advantage of and she might be subject to blackmail. And he asked for some of his colleagues and friends to check out the situation, see if they could figure out what this socalled medium was actually doing and figure out how he was able to make the noises he was claiming were spirits so noah brooks is present at this sayance and recounts the noises that they were hearing and when the lights turned on, they had grabbed the persons hand and were able to prove that he was a fraud. Based on the historical record, it does not seem that mary was aware she was being degree frauded in this way and, in fact, after it is revealed this man is a fake shes quite embarrassed by it and there is an attempt to conceal and cover up the incident. Whenever mary lincoln writes about this place to friends she talked about how dearly she loved the place or how she looked forward to coming out here and she saw it as fulfilling her dream of what her family would experience when they were in washington, d. C. So even though it was still a place where death and the war were surrounding them, it also give them a little bit of respite from the chaos of downtown washington, d. C. The soldiers home is avail football for public tours and if you get to washington, d. C. , put it on the list, it is one of the out of the way spots is a time capsule of a important piece of history. You weriblely wanted to react to the the carriage accident, this is the lincoln presidency in miniature, because we dont know, marys condition, whatever it was, worsened after that very severe head injury that she experienced. The date is significant. It was the 2nd of july, 1863. Which is the second day of the battle of gettysburg. Needless to say the president s attention is focused elsewhere. He was not in a situation, well with gettysburg and vicksburg and to pay enough attention to his wife. There is speculation that that was an attempted assassination and one part of their history that we didnt tell about is on their initial trip to washington after the election there was a documented assassination attempt at the Pinkerton Service saved them from on the train in baltimore. Im asking this just to say there was a constant threat on the lives of these people. So that stress as well. Oh, i agree. She was living with all of that. Plus the confusion of war. I mean, it was a horrible time to be in the white house. I would think. The administration is filled, were in the midst of a fiveyear 150th marking of the civil war events. And so we couldnt kacapture on one screen the vig events of the administration but here are a few of them. 1861, the civil war began of course. In 1863, they issue the emancipation proclamation. And as Richard Nortan smith said, delivered the gettysburg address. In 1865 the 13th amendment abolishing slavery and that was captured in the Lincoln Movie we just talked about and on april 9th the Confederate Army sur renders. That is the bookends of the lincoln administration. So the question about mary during this time period, how did she comport herself. You mentioned her visit to the military hospitals. As wife of a president in the midst of war, how did she comport herself. That goes to the controversy. Because there is a significant body of evidence that calls into question some of her conduct. For example, she was surrounded by people who very clearly were there to take advantage of her. Ill give you one example. There was a character well, she needed money. Never forget the fact from the day she arrived there she needed money. Why did she need money so much . She needed money because she had spent at one point she was 27,000 in debt to her dressmakers. And so the president had to be reelected because if he was she could keep those bills at bay. If he wasnt reelected, who knew what might happen. And that is quite apart from the money she was spending, the public funds she was spending on the white house proper. So there were always people around her who were eager to serve their own interests by appearing to serve hers. Ill give you one example. There was a shady character who was with the new york her old and he befriended ms. Lincoln and low and behold the president s annual message to congress in december 1861, appeared in the new york herold the same day it went to congress. Anyway, you get the picture. There was no shortage of people like this who were eager to either align their own pockets or serve their own interests. And i think the legitimate, if you want to say criticism, of mrs. Lincoln as first lady has nothing to do with her mental condition, where you could only feel empathetic. But legitimately there is criticism about how she conducted herself in ways that always were in danger if exposed of embarrassing the president. Now in this case, her letter, it was the gardner who took the letter and gave it to the press. That was the story that was bantied about. And then the gardner leaves for scotland. Leaves the employ of the white house. So he must have been paid to do this. But the other side of the argument is that that was a story they cooked up in effect to cover what had actually happened. Lets take another call. Candice is in fredericksburg, virginia. Welcome. Thank you. Im enjoying the show very much. I have a question regarding the broken first engagement and then they got back together, about a year and a half later and got married. Number one, why do you think they broke up . And number two, why did they get back together and do you think lincoln loved her throughout their marriage . Thank you. Thank you so much. Im going to hold that question because as this program progresses well go back in time to how abraham and mary got together and well answer candices question, i promise. Lets take another one from chad in baltimore. Youre on, chad. Caller my question is about Elizabeth Keckly. I think she served both mary lincoln and vernon davis, the first lady of the confederacy, im shnot sure. She made dresses for a variety including jefferson daf daviss wife and she was very popular with her own shop. She did not live in the white house. She had her own residence, a place where she rented. And she was very popular among the congressional wives who then recommended her to mrs. Lincoln. Had she bought her freedom. Yes. She bought her freedom in st. Louis through dressmaking. As the lincolns traveled back and forth between the white house and the soldiers home they passed what is called contraband camps. Yes. What were those. People slavery, especially in washington, coming from maryland virginia in particular with their families. Or slaves enslaved people who were emancipated but had no place to go. And there were several contraband associations across the nation but mrs. Keckly was one of the founders of the washington contraband association. And she talked mrs. Lincoln into donating and from i hear mrs. Lincoln talked the president into making donations. We have many people on both facebook and twitter asking us questions about her views on slavery. Here are a couple of them. Ronald wolf blair, since they were friends with hebby clay, did mary prescribe to the emancipation and the colonization of the slaves or did she press for immediate emancipation and scrapping the scholar and was she antislavery and did she support the 13th amendment . Do we know. She supported the 13th amendment. Right. And they say that she influenced the president into the immediate emancipation. Even though i think that was a war strategy. I think youre right. But she was definitely she didnt go the other way. She was encouraging him to go ahead and do it. But the mention of henry clay, it is very important, what brought them together was it is very unlikely couple in many ways, was a shared love of politics. Which, again, particularly unusual for a young, wellbred lady of that era but in particular henry clay who was a neighbor of the todds who was a good friend and lincolns political hero. So in some ways henry clay is the political matchmaker behind this unlikely union. And a good segue into springfield illinois where abraham and mary would meet. Lets watch more about some of the collections in the Lincoln Library there of mary lincoln first lady artifacts and well learn more but ho that city which is so important to them preserves her memory. Here we have some things that mary lincoln had in the white house. She continued to be interested in books. Here is just two volumes of what we think was a 27volume set of the works of sir edward bulwark mitton. Not a name much recognized today. Though, this particular novel is sort of remembered, last days of pompeii and mary signed these books. In this case 1864. She was a pretty good writer of letters. She is her personal letter seal with the monogram m. L. On it. Notice that there is no t in there. She never called herself Mary Todd Lincoln. She never called herself mary t. Lincoln. She was mrs. Lincoln or mrs. President lincoln. The inclusion of todd in her name is a 20th century invention. This is a letter that begins to show some of her difficulties, you would suppose, in the sense that her reputation suffered. She is writing to the assistant secretary of the treasury mr. George harington asking if he could find a job for her dressmaker, Elizabeth Keckly. Because she doesnt any longer need the services of ellen shehan and wants her off the jobs list and wants to get Elizabeth Keckly on to the jobs list over at treasury. And i promise i will never ask you for another favor again, mr. Harrington, though, of course, she did over and over. But the real cause of their sorrow in the white house personally was the death of their son willie. This is a piece of sheet music which we just acquired and it is one of two copies of it recorded anywhere in a library. We suppose there are a few others out there. Little willies grave. Hard to imagine how many people would have wanted to buy this outside of the lincolns immediate circle of friends and yet a substantial publisher in new york, william hall and son, did print it. He was the first child to have died in the white house and one of only two president ial children ever to die in the white house. That is the lincoln president ial museum and library in springfield, illinois. Which i guess Richard Nortan smith was very much involved in the creation of. Going back to her need for money. Dan nyguard reminds that Abraham Lincoln was a successful lawyer in springfield and worked for the railroad and made quite a bit of money so what was his income in the late 1850s and why did they need money so much . It is a great point. If you look at the contemporary accounts, marys preoccupation with money seemed to have been something that started with washington. In fact, their friends and neighbors who talk about how thrifty she was, necessarily. What a good housekeeper she was during his legal days back in springfield. I think it was grounded in her sense that we talked about a little bit already, that she was a national figure, that she was representing the west, if you will, that she was quite aware there were people who were condescending to both her and her husband. That she had a place and status and appearance to maintain. And i think it was as simple as that. I also think it got out of hand. Lincoln left an estate of 85,000 at the time of his death. Of which she is the widow would inherit onethird. And you figure she was at the time of his reelection, she was in debt 27,000. Well, on that note, it is said that mary bought duplicates and were talking hundreds sometimes of many items such as gloves and parasols, was this true and what happened to all of the items . That is a great question. And that is true. That is the sort of the obsessive nature. Over time it became more pronounced that she would go and buy dozens of sets of gloves that at a given time. One thing, though, wearing gloves in washington with all of those people coming in, sure she was aware of the germs that people had. And i think that was a significant thing. Mrs. Keckly kept some used gloves of the president that mrs. Lincoln took off of his hands and gave to her. So whenever there were meetings and people were coming by, they wore gloves. This is in the movie. This was real. The movie about the lincolns, the movie showed his servant saying mrs. Lincoln wants you to wear these gloves. It is important to wear the gloves. And that caught me. I said, she knew about the disease in the city. But she did buy in some cases 300 sets of these. So even knowing about that one of the really touching and sort of counter points to this is lincoln loved to see her in beautiful clothes. It was one of the few extravagances that he was comfortable with. So he was indulgent on one hand and critical on the other. I would say much more indulgent than critical. And we cant do justice to the years of white house. But was there any question that lincoln would seek reelection . There wasnt any question that he would seek reelection. There was a profound question of whether he would be elected. He acknowledged as late as august of 1864, wholly dependent on the course of the war. And at that point before shermans march and before atlanta had fallen, before it became very clear that there was only a question of time that the north would win, lincoln himself believed that he would not be reelected. So you could imagine the mood upstairs around mrs. Lincoln. And he had bouts of melancholy. A lot of them. And apparently she was one of the few people who could soothe him and bring him out of it. And here is what mary lincoln had to say shortly after the reelection in 1864. Our hefrnly father sees fit to visit us at such times for our worldliness how small and significant all worldly honors are when we are thus so surely tried. Well, you know, there is still part of the debate about lincoln and religion. Clearly mary was a devout churchgoer who i think she had some doubts planted by the death of willie. Lincoln himself never joined a church. But even as far back as springfield, we have accounts of him spending hours and hours sitting in the at home with the minister going over the bible. He knew his King James Bible front and back. In some ways where he taught himself to write. That fateful night of april 1865, when the lincolns who were avid theater goers make the decision to see our american cousin at fords theater and lincoln is assassinated. Tell us briefly the story of his death and marys role in that. Well shes right there. Of course she witnesses it. In fact, shes the one that cries out first, the president has been shot. Because people assume that this man who jumps is part of the show. And then they take him across the street to what is it a boardinghouse. Yeah. And hes very sick and his cabinet members, and to me that was very strange, that his cabinet members are all around him while the doctors are there. And shes hysterical. I guess she would be, you know. And so they get one of her female friends to take her out of the room and they keep her there. She wont bring her in. And thats what takes him all night to pass away. And the sad thing is they wouldnt let her see him at the end. Because they didnt want from what i gather, they didnt want to hear her hysteria. Secretary stanton who took charge of everything in the house that night, at one point said, you know, take that woman out of the room, and Robert Todd Lincoln was at his fathers bed side, but mary was not there when the end came. Lets hear a call from michael in st. Petersburg, florida. Michael, are you there . Caller im sorry, yes. Go ahead with your question, please. Caller first, thank you for taking my call. I have enjoyed the entire series, and i have followed it with margaret trumans biography of the first ladies. And she devotes quite a bit of time to Mary Todd Lincoln and marks on many historian lists, Mary Todd Lincoln is at the bottom of the list. I dont agree with that, and i am wondering how your commentators would rank mrs. Lincoln in terms of all of the first ladies . Thank you very much. Oh, boy. Put it this way, i would disagree with those who would rank her at or near the bottom. I think, first of all, that is to put it mildly, a less than compassiona compassionate, but i also think her years in the white house, her story is real, unique in white house history. I think shes a unique figure. The fact that 150 years later were having this discussion were still debating her motives and her conduct tells you shes an important first lady. Ill leave it at that. Shes important because of the man to whom she was married . Shes important because of the man she married and her part in this story which is still being debated after all these years. We still feel as if we dont know who she was. Were not having this debate over angelica van buren. Would you rate her . Shes one of my favorites. Not my true favorite, but i divide them up into 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st century. Among the 19th century ones she and Abigail Adams would be my favorite. I would rank her quite high. I also think you have to look at her vision as a partner. There were several first ladies who considered themselves to be partners with their husband. Not that they were trying to tell them what to do but to help advise them, help take care of them whether mentally or physically or politically. I think she was a very significant influence on her husband. Shes a tragic figure. Yes, thats part of it. And part of that tragedy is that very partnership, which arguably did help contribute to his becoming president , in many ways was destroyed by the war and the presidency that they worked together to achieve. And the vilification. Department is in queen, new york. Youre on. Caller thank you so much. Thank you for producing such a wonderful program. I watched it every night. I want to also comment about carl sandberg. Lincoln there was a Television Movie in 1974. I think todays movie is good but if you want to get a good picture of the lincolns, i think people should watch this type of movie. Also, on youtube you can see how lincolns body was almost stolen from his crypt at the time. Thats something i didnt want to know about. Theres so much information about the lincolns that it would take a whole year to earth up. I would rate her up there with sell nor roosevelt and jacqueline kennedy. Tell us about the lincoln funeral. There was never anything like it then or since. Basically 20 days thereabouts. They retraced the inauguration from springfield to washington. With a couple of exceptions they retraced that route. There were ten, in effect, state funerals in cities along the way. By one estimate a third of every northern american either looked upon the president s face in his casket or actually saw the train go by. It was an extraordinary pageant of grief, very victorian, very 19th century and the irony is mrs. Lincoln was not along for any of it. In keeping with tradition she remained behind at the white house absolutely grief stricken. She really didnt attend any of her husbands funerals. Elizabeth describes her in the white house missing all the celebrations just wailing with grief repeatedly. What can you tell us about her response . I can understand it. Its not me but considering all the things she has to go through in her early part of marriage, getting to the white house, the triumph of that and the death of their son, then his assassination in front of her. I can understand that. I also think, and maybe this blow on the head might have exacerbated her emotional state, that she was letting it out. Letting it all come out. It was very sad, but i can understand it. Both kentucky and illinois claim the lincolns as their own. Mary todd was born in lexington, kentucky. Were going to visit that place. This is marys home where she lived from the ages of 13 to 21. This is not where she was born, but her birthplace no longer stands. This is the most significant place for her childhood. We are in marys bedroom. She shared a room with various sisters and cousins that lived with them. They had family members that came to live with them and that was so they could attend school. Lexington was known for its educational cultural institutions. Mary lincoln had nine years of formal schooling. She first attended Wards Academy which was in walking distance of her birthplace. Then she went on to attend madame academy. She learned everything that was expected of women of her class such as needlepoint and dancing, but they also learned higher levels of male subjects such as literature and arithmetic. Her formal education made her one of the most educated women of her generation. The popular image of Mary Todd Lincoln is dark, but her childhood here in lexington, many of the stories associated with it represent a typical childhood. She had a pony that she rode around town. She and her siblings would ca h minnows in the cleek that ran out back. She and a cousin attempted to create their own hoop skirts and sneak off to wear them to sunday school. This is the family parlor where mary and her parents and many siblings would have spent the evening together. Its important to keep in mind that in addition to the white family members there were enslaved africanamericans here. On average, over the years they lived here, they had five slaves who provided all the Household Labor and were at the property. That included two women and three men. We had a portrait of her stepmother. This is mary brown humphries. Shes said to have been a formative influence on mrs. Lincoln. She was welleducated and spoke french fluently. Shes also interesting because of her view on slavery. In her will she chose to provide for the gradual freeing of her slaves over the years. This represents the political position of gradual emancipation. This is one position on a spectrum in regard to slavery. This is the dining room. This is where mary along with her older siblings would have entertained other prominent families of the day, including politicians. One of the greatest politicians and a neighbor of the todds was henry clay. Henry clay was the leader of the wig Political Party and was a friend of the todd family. Mary lincolns father was also a he member of the whig Political Party. Todd and clay shared some political ideas especially in regard to slavery. Both clay and todd supported the american colonization society. This represents yet another view on slavery that mary lincoln was exposed to as a child. This is the gentlemens parlor of the house. It would have been off limits to the women. According to one of mary todds cousins, mary liked to sit in on the political conversations that would happening here. They say that mary lincoln might have taken an interest in politics in part to help garner attention from her father who was active in state and local politics. Our next caller is from lexington, kentucky. John, your question or comment. Caller thank you for taking my call. I appreciate the stress on the unique specific aspects of marys time in the white house. One that is brought up here in the segment we just watched is the fact that many of marys kin became confederates during the war. Very famously so. I live in the home of her sister emily. She married a man who would become a confederate general in his own right. My question is could you all talk a bit about marys perception of her confederate siblings while in the white house and especially mourning. Did she mourn for her confederate kin . Thank you very much. Interesting question. Thank you. It is. Her family was so huge. She was the fourth of seven children. In the second family there were nine children. There were three or four of her siblings or stepsiblings, who fought actively for the confederacy. One of them was the husband of one of her favorite stepsisters emily. I believe he was killed. Right, right. The lincolns had emily to stay at the white house for some extended period of time. Theres scene where, i believe theres a Union General at the dinner table and complaining about sharing the dinner table with a rebel. Lincoln said mrs. Lincoln and i dont need any help from you in deciding who our guests will be. Anyway, mary made it very clear that her siblings had taken up arms not only against her country but her husband and she saw no reason to mourn their loss. Nancy is in bristol, indiana. Youre on. Caller thank you. This wonderful, unique woman is my hero. Something thats not brought up very often, it is brought up often is about her mental condition. Ive never seen anything about the laud numb and paragric she took whats the word . Its a drug. It affected her mind. She took these things from a child on. She had headaches all her life. This would calm her down. We know it affects the brain, and i dont understand why more people dont bring this up especially as her mental condition got worse as she got older. Thank you, nancy. Do you know anything about her no, i dont. That would make sense. What shes saying is makes sense. You heard she suffered from headaches. Probably in migraines. It was. All her life. Lincoln used to leave the office. She was terrified of thunderstorms. At the first sign of a storm he would leave the office and go home. Horace is in philadelphia, as our discussion continues. Hi, horace. Caller good evening. Im fascinated by the program. Im watching every night it appears. How did the lincolns come to know each other . Who courted who . How did they come to meet . May we answer that by video. Were going to learn more about lincolns springfield home. Well learn about their life there as we visit that. Can we watch that next . This is the lincoln home in springfield, illinois. This is the only home they ever owned. This is where mary learned how to be a wife and mother. They lived here from 1844 to 1861. Over the course of the 17 years they added on and added on and created this twostory, very comfortable upper class home. After 11 years of living in the house they were able to add a full second floor as part of the expanding of not only their family, they were expanding their house at the same time and mr. Lincolns career. He was traveling the circuit. Most of the daytoday oversight would have been mary lincoln. She was very decisive. She knew what she wanted. It was probably not too tough of a project for her. They were able to add five bedrooms. Theres a guest bedroom which would have been a luxury. They were able to have their own space, not necessarily to highlight problems in their marriage but just so they each had their own space. Privacy is not something you get a lot of in the 1850s and 1860s. Mr. Lincoln could stay in here and work on legal papers or political views. Mrs. Lincoln would have to get up early to start breakfast. Her two youngest sons slept in a trundle bed, pulse out from under her bed. Sjsz are sl the last bedroom up here was the hired girls room. They had a hired girl almost every year they lived here. That girl then did had her space at the end of the hall way right up from the kitchen. Were in marys bedroom now. This would have been a sanctuary for her. Shes in a house full of boys and men and a lot of men coming to visit her. She would have needed a spot to call her own that she could retreat to that could serve as a home office. This is the center of the home. You can see the acorns. Mary purchased the stove in springfield from a local stove dealer. We think somewhere between 20 and 25 for the stove. The average person making about 500 a year. This is an expensive purchase. She liked it so much she wanted to pack it up and take it to the white house. Mr. Lincoln reminded her she wasnt going to be doing a lot of cooking once she got to the white house so they left it here for the renters that they had rented the house to. The neighborhood they were in was starting to become a little more middle class. It had started out a little bit lower middle class and small houses, lot of widows. People were moving into the neighborhood. The neighborhood wads starting to grow a little bit. Mary wanted to not only keep up with the joneses, she wanted to be the joneses. So thats a glimpse of the link ups live together in springfield, but the question was asked, how did they meet . She left lexington. Its been speculated her relationship with her stepmother may have been a factor. In 1839 she went to springfield. Why springfield . Her sister was married to a man, his father had been governor of territorial illinois. She was immediately thrown into the social set. Springfield was a tiny town. Maybe 2500 people, but at the very hierarchical. She was wealthy and educated. This is something that people tend to overlook why lincoln was attracted to her in the first place. Classic opposites attracting. This was a young woman who could have had her choice. No fewer than four future senators expressed interest in mary. She spoke french fluently. She was by all accounts a witty conversationalist. Highly educated for women of her day. A compelling, magnetic figure and lincoln stood off to one side almost his mouth hanging open. The contrast between his own lack of formal education, his own lack of polish and one of the things that mary did that i think she doesnt get a lot of credit for was in effect to add some polish to her unpolished husband. She was his advocate. She imagined after hed lost two races for the United States senate that his political career wasnt overed. She imagined him in the white house long before he did. Her famous strawberry socials in the parlor of on the first floor was just one tangible way in which she conducted a campaign for him. He might have been entranced but he wasnt certain and he broke off their engagement for a year and a half. Here is something he had to say after breaking off the engagement. Im now the most miserable man in the world. If what i feel were equally distributed to the whole human family there would not be one cheerful face on earth. Can either of you tell us how they finally got back together . Yeah. The local newspaper editor, his wife stepped in and said look, this is ridiculous. You care for each other. Lets be friends. In effect, reignited the friendship and by november of 1842, without really telling anyone, they announced that very day mary wanted to be known that they were marrying that night. They insisted we have to do it at our house. The great tragic irony of all of this is that it was in that same house 40 years later that marys life came to an end. Our next call is from christy in west fargo, north dakota. Caller thank you for having me. Im calling today because i wanted to know your feelings about what mary would have thought when lincoln signed for the slaves to become free. He also signed for native americans plus two to be hung in minnesota which was the largest mass hanging in our United States history and being a native american from north dakota, i was wondering on your comment and what did mary did she know about this and what were her feelings on it at the time . Do you know . I havent seen anything about her response to the hanging. I know she was very excited about the emancipation proclamation. I suspect from what i have gleaned about her caring for people who were disadvantaged and who were outsiders, so to speak, that she might not have liked the idea, but i dont know. Do you . I dont. I know lincoln tried to reduce that number. The original was much, much larger than that. He reduced it significantly. One senses he went along with the whole thing reluctantly but i dont know more than that. Cindy in denver. Caller thank you for taking my call. I had a question. First of all, i wanted to say thank you for this series. Its great. I wanted to ask if either of your guests had ever heard about mary lincoln suffering from Mental Illnesses that we would today equate with being bipolar or manicdepressive . Thank you for asking that question. We have many people on twitter and facebook all wanting to put a name on mary lincolns anguish. How tough is that to do when youre looking back 150 years with a discipline that didnt exist in the day . Thats what i was thinking. They used to call it manicdepressive before we got the bipolar. It seemed sometimes she was happy, but wasnt depressed how possible is it for us to know . The symptoms give you hints. Point out the obvious, neither one of is professionally trained to diagnose any condition. Its no doubt that theres this continuing fascination and the desire on people to put a name to her condition. From what i understood none of the physicians could figure it out. They couldnt come up with any diagnosis or conclusion. She was called high strung and later on it was mercurial. Elaine. Good evening. Caller thank you. Our book and supper club have read patricia bradys biography of martha washington, so i was excited when that program was on. Two months ago we read the first family about john and Abigail Adams, so thats added more to nigh knowledge of those two. Another book that we read which is fictionalized. We read team of rivals. Another one is a fictionalized biography. Nothing in it was new to me or contradicted ive heard from other sources, historical sources, except there was mention of what appeared to be an affair with some government employee. Its been several years. Im sorry i dont remember the author. I would be very skeptical about it except for the fact that existing newspapers were quoted with dates and headlines and i thought if this author has made this up, she has really been bold in doing so. It seems to me the employee was supposed to have been somebody in charge of housing or government buildings in d. C. I wondered if you have any comments on that or know anything about it . Only that one of the criticisms thats been made is some of her conduct fed gossip. Thats how i would characterize it. The fed gossip that mrs. Lincoln in her desperation for money befriended inappropriate individuals and how far it went, i would be very skeptical to be honest with you. This was the first time in newspapers in history were having columnists. This opinion of her was spread in the newspapers across the country. This was a change in the way first ladies were treated by the press. Sure. She thought she was the scapegoat. She really felt it. Think of how incredibly intense popular emotions were. That carried over to the president and his family. Were going to look next at another video visit to the springfield home. This one helps us understand more of that Political Partnership that Richard Norton smith referred to between the two lincolns. This is the lincoln home in springfield, illinois. Its the home where mary helped build lincolns political career. They would invite friends and family over to talk politics, talk events of the day. This is where he became the president. Mr. Lincoln was a very ambitious person. He had a lot of goals in life but those were enhanced when he met and married mary todd. She also was ambitious. She wanted to marry a man of good mind and hopes for a bright future, and said she would marry a man that would be president. There was something in lincoln that she saw the potential and encouraged it and helped develop it. Lessons in etiquette in the dining room that polished him. The split political parties. The the strawberry and cream party talking with the wives of the very important gentlemen. She wielded a lot of power over mr. Lincoln and where she was going. This was the dining room. When they moved in it was a eat in kitchen. Thats not something that a polished, Upper Class Society would do. Mary had grown up with a formal dining room and she felt she needed to have one here because she didnt want her children growing up without proper manners. Mr. Lincoln needed that polishing as well. All of her boys needed some polishing. She created that dining room to have that formal space for she and her family and also for when they had guests over. There were a lot of people that came to visit mr. Lincoln during the 1860 campaign, and after he was elected president there was four months between the election and inauguration. Mary would have had trays of something that maybe a slice of her famous white cake or the macaroon pyramid that was downtown springfield. We know they bought lots of those. You could get your refreshments in here. Maybe relax after the formal side of meeting mr. Lincoln. This the double parlor. These are the two nicest rooms in the house. Mary spared no expense to some extent. Theres marble brass tables and tables with a bust of mr. Lincoln on it. That was here in 1860. Not everybody could say that that they had a bust of their husband in the living room. This is where she wanted to show off. Mary would have held her parties in here where she would have been discussing mr. Lincolns political aspirations. This is where people started when they came to visit at a party. They started at the front door. Met mr. Lincoln here. She was probably standing in the arch way between the two rooms. This is where mr. Lincoln met with the Republican National Convention Committee that told told him he had been nominated to run for president. This was the seat of power in this house. Mary helped to showcase what her husband had done, how far he had come from that one room log cabin in the middle of nowhere kentucky to this beautiful comfortable house and hinted at where they were headed. Stating to the world that Abraham Lincoln had made it and was ready to move on. A call from tim in wisconsin. Go ahead. Caller thank you for taking my call. I have read several biographies about mary lincoln. I never seen anything about how influential she was on the policies that abraham enacted while he was president. I was wondering if either guest could elaborate to the extent of her influence on the political decisions made in the white house during abrahams term in office. Was she interested in politics or policy . She was interested in personalities. Grant was that person. We talked earlier. Once they had attained their goal, once they moved into the white house, i think her influence, as we would use that term today, over policy diminished. I think their partnership was in some ways broken. I think the war consumed him and i think it was a source of frustration for her. The relationship that they had before the presidency was in some ways greatly diminished. I dont think she was significantly influential s in terms of shaping the war or who he put in the cabinet. We have eight minutes left. Mary lived just seven years longer. What were those years like for her . Part of time she was in a Mental Institution because her son robert put her there. I have been debating about him very much about the way she felt he had been disloyal to her and how he was able to control her money and become the executor of it. She had to struggle. She managed to plug in people who could help her. I thought that was admirable. Even with her problems she was able to do that. She did something that was just not done. She was obsessed with money. At one point she moved to sell off a number of her white house dresses, which just made the public impression all the worse. She was in debt, was she not . She was in debt. Remember those 27,000 that she owed. She needed the cash. There was no doubt about it. She petitioned congress over and over for a pension which finally belatedly was granted, 3,000. A month . A year. It was raised to 5,000. That was her contribution to future first ladies. Only after she found out that another first lady, i cant remember which one it was was getting 5,000. She said if youre giving her 5,000, you should be able to give me 5,000. I think it was mrs. Garfield. She went to live in europe, because actually it was cheaper, and then she had yet another great tragedy in 1871 when tad died. He died of tuberculosis. How old was he . Teenager. Did he die in europe . Only one of her children made it to adulthood. The one she thought was disloyal. He died coming back from europe. Bob is watching us in baltimore. Your question. Caller great question. What was mary lincolns relationship with her younger son . My impression from the movie lincoln is tad and his father had a strong and affectionate bond. Did tad have a similar relationship with his mother . Thank you. I think the answer to that is yes. I think it carried over. Tad realized he had a curiously adult sensitivity. After the death of his father he realized how vulnerable his mother was. He took care of her. I think their personalities were similar. I would think thats another reason why they would be close. She spent time in chicago in the hyde part section of chicago. Then she went to europe. She went to europe. She came back. As robert had her incarcerated for several months there was a second trial at which she managed to convince the jury that she was perfectly sane. She and robert never really reconciled. She went back to europe for four years. Lived in france for four years. Then in 1880 returned to springfield. By this time she was almost blind. She had severe cataracts. She went to live in her sisters house. The house in which she had married mr. Lincoln and thats where her life ended. Donna, youre on. Caller i think they answered my question. I was wondering if robert and his mother ever got to be friends again. Did he not offer to take her to his home . You might call a formal reconciliation. I emphasize formal. I dont think she trusted him. I wouldnt have. Are there any living relatives of the lincolns . There are no direct descendants. Robert had no children . Robert had a son who died. I used to remember the lines but the last directive died in the 1970s. This is one of those Great Questions to wrap up the program. It comes from john richardson. He writes when youre alone with your friends what is your favorite story to tell about mary lincoln . Okay. That she and Elizabeth Keckley had a great relationship. They were the same age. They both lost sons. Mary supported the causes that elizabeth supported. What does that tell you about mary lincoln . Shes a sensitive person. How controversial would it have been for her to be friends with an africanamerican . I think it would have been to some extent. People kept calling elizabeth her servant but i dont think mary looked at her as a servant. I think she considered her a companion. Your favorite story. Lincoln served one term and he would not be reelected. It was mary who managed the campaign to try to get him commissioner of the General Land Office at 3,000 a year. It was mary who wrote the letters. When he was offered the governorship of the oregon territory, it was mary who turned it down saying oregon was not whig friendly, it was likely to be democratic and would not advance his longterm political interest to be the governor of the oregon territory. We have a short time left. Caller i would like to know a couple of things. What do you think she would have wanted her legacy to be today and also the second thing is would she have been more or against the Womens Movement in the 60s if she would travel through a time machine . You do the legacy. Legacy . What would she have wanted her legacy to be . She loved her husband, her family and her country in that order. I want to add to that. She wanted people to get along. I really think she did. Thats something she tried to do early in the white house years was to be fair and greet people and encourage people regardless of what party they were in. In terms of women, i think she might have been persuaded to be a feminist. Its kind of hard to tell. Well, we are out of time. I hope we have done what we set out to do which is to provide a more nuanced picture of Mary Todd Lincoln. I want to say a special thanks to the White House Association who will be our partner throughout our series. 35 installments. Thank you for your contributions tonight. My pleasure. Thank you. t through interviews with top historians, now available in paperback, hard cover, or as an ohbook. First ladies, influence and image on American History tv examines the private lives and public roles of the nations first ladies, through interviews with top historians. Tonight, we look at julia grant and lucy hayes. Julia grant was a staunch defenders of womens rights and refused to allow jokes at womens expense to be told in her company. Luose hays was the first to hav a college agree. Watch tonight at 8 00 p. M. On cspan3. C span has unfiltered coverage. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, onlineor