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You should see a five minute count down clock on the Software Platform display but if necessary i will gently remind members when their time is up. So welcome, everyone. Today we be focusing on Racial Disparity in the military Justice System. Were here to discuss the inequality and injustices that people of color experience in the military Justice System including those in criminal investigations, Courts Martial and nonjudicial punishment. The fact that we live in a country with ingrained racial bias does not justify the per petuation of racism in the United States military. Our Service Members commit their lives to protect our country. We must commit ourselves to ensure that the military treats Service Members of color equally and justly. We will not solve this problem by hiding it or denying it. We will not solve this problem pretending that it is solely the result of uncontrollable societal problems by pretending that our actions did not contribute to the continuation of justice by refusing to seek change because we are so comfortable and confident in, quote, the way things have always been done, unquote. The way things have always been done is wrong. The results are repugnant. I hope that all our military leaders in the room are prepared to acknowledge the need for a reckoning and prepared further to institute bold measures to fix the inherent bias in the military Justice System in america. Gao most recent report found that black Service Members were more likely to be the subject of recording investigations and more likely to be tried in general and special Courts Martial than their white counterparts. Importantly, gao found that the results were statistically significant. Racial data on nonjudicial punishment was not uniformly collected. They found that black airmen were twice as likely to face nonjudicial punishment than white airmen. If history provides us some solace, the military led the way long before schools or lunch counters were ingrated. In 1948 president truman signed executive order 9981 directing equal treatment for our black Service Members in the military. Subsequently the army, navy, air force and marine corp complied, quote, in 1949 the air force issued a, quote, bill of rights for blake airmen and the Navy Proposed a recruiting program to enlist black sailors. The marine corp eliminated the segregated training platoons and various post facilities, unquote. But integration did not equal acceptance. Racism and discrimination both personal and institutional continued. People of color who wish to make a career in our military have faced uphill fight and weve done too little to assist them. 72 years after integration, the fight for equality and justice continues. We still struggle to carve out an equal place for people of color. Struggle to ensure they have the same opportunities to serve and advance in their careers. And struggle to ensure them equal justice. We have to look no further than the military leaders in this country. Almost exclusively white men. It was heartening to note that general Charles Brown has become the air force chief of staff. Just this week. At 72 years. I would like to hear from the first panel of what needs to change. What needs to be done to bring transparency to the system and ensure accountability for every commander who uses the military Justice System in a biassed and discriminateory manner. I wouldnt like to hear how you could recognize bias in the military Justice System and what you could do to ensure that justice is dispensed fairly and consistently. Before i introduce our first panel let me offer Ranking Member kelly an opportunity to make his opening remarks. Thank you, chairwoman spear and thank the witnesses for being here. Thank you for holding this hearing at such a fitting time. As americans across this country of all backgrounds are struggling to better understand Racial Disparity across society at large and to take substantive actions that actually make a difference, this is a fitting time to have this hearing. I want to welcome both of our panels to todays hearing. We appreciate your attention and commitment to remedy a very grave problem that if left unchecked to undermine the readiness of our armed forces. Racial disparity is a very real societal problem and across various criminal justice we see lopsided rates that should concern every american. This country is struggled to confront and fix that problem for decades and we continue to do so. But as the events of the last several week demonstrate, we have a long way to go. As a former District Attorney and city prosecutor, i have seen my share of it. And it is something neither i nor any of us could ever shy away from or get complacent about. This is a problem we all collectively need to confront head on. What do i think we can and must make a very real difference is in our military. Ive served in the military for over 33 years, commander of the battalion and brigade levels and i know the bond our Young Warriors share regardless of background. I was proud two weeks ago when 371 soldiers from the 155 kbhat team all answered the call and deployed to washington for the civil unrest on three hours in the. They were a very Diverse Group with 43 from either africanamerican or minority backgrounds. They trained together. They deployed together. And they did their duty as a team together. Which is what makes our military so great. They answered the call. Did what they were asked to do and they did it with honor and integrity. They and all Service Members place their trust in each other and their leaders and that why our military is so formidable. This is in context that lays bit of the foundation for what makes disparity in military justice so troubling for me. Leaders need to do the right thing always. Treat every soldier, sailor, airman and marine are dignity and respect. If Racial Disparity persists, it always has a negative impact on recruiting, ready i yns and the culture of our military. I understand that the statistics, the effect, but what we need to understand is the cause, fashion the right remedies and we need to do it acquisitionly. Section 4501 tack sec death to evaluate the causes of racial, ethnic and gender disparities in the military Justice System and to take steps to remedy dir parities. And i look for calls and potential solutions and where the department is in causes and remedies. I understand the air force is innish ated an Inspector General with panel of experts to explore the problem. Im interested in hearing from the services about any similar or complementary initiatives. I did know that the space force is not here today. And as a new force i think they have a chance to get it right from the start. They could be Ground Breaking and groundsetting because they start from zero. Madam chairwoman i think it is a great start and i look forward to todays discussion. And i want to thank the witnesses and share their collective expertise with us and i yield back. Thank you, mr. Kelly. Each witness will have the opportunity to present his or her testimony and each member will have an opportunity to question the witnesses for five minutes. We respectfully ask the witnesses to summarize their testimony in five minutes. Your written comments and statements will be made part of the hearing record. I ask unanimous consent that nonsubcommittee members be allowed to participate and ask questions after all of the subcommittee members have had the opportunity to ask questions. Without objection, so ordered. Let me welcome our first panel. Retired colonel Don Christiansen president of protect our defenders and brenda feral director of defense capability and Management Team of the u. S. Government accountability office. Ms. Pharrell is joining us via web ex. Welcome. All right. Let you begin with colonel christiansen. Chairwoman spear, Ranking Member kelly, distinguished members of sub committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to examine the issue of Racial Disparities in the military Justice System. Like our country, the military has a long and painful history of mistreating racial minorities. Black Service Members have continued to be prosecuted and punished at a much greater rate than white counterparts. More over they suffer promotions rates and lower promotion rates and vastly underrepresented in the officer corp especially at the general and flag officer ranks. To improve the fairness of the military Justice System, in 2016 we filed a series of freedom of information act requests to each Service Seeking ten years of data on military disparities in the justice process. The data provided in rates per thousand. We released a study of our findings in june of 2017 that showed widespread Racial Disparities in all of the services. We examined a total of 32 years of data and in every single year black Service Members were punished at a significantly higher rate than white Service Members. Based on aur findings congressman dated a Government Accountability office to review the despair ates which was completed in march of 2019. The jao found significant Racial Disparities but most shockinglily they found none of the services had done anything to find the causes or solutions tor the disparities. As part of the answer to our 2016 foia request the air force stated it had a Cross Functional Team led by Diversity Inclusion to recommend policy changes, process modifications and or additional study as appropriate. In july of 2017 we found an additional foia request seeking the identity of the team members as well as the Team Findings and recommendations in addition to other information. This was the start of a grilling 3 year long study to force the air force to meet the foia obligations. Thankfully we were represented by the Veterans Service clinic which enabled us to file suit in federal court. Despite efforts to conceal finding and recommendations of the team, the federal judge eventually ordered the air force to disclose the requested documents under the threat of sanctions. The documents that we received are startlingch the panel and followup study by air force man power found that the Racial Disparities were quote consistent and persistent and getting worse. The air force admitted that the numbers were concerning and the importance of having, quote, equitable and consistent disciplinary processes. These findings were made in 2016 and despite concluding that the air force, quote, must clearly address the disparity in some way, end quote, the air force appeared to act on the teams recommendations and address the issues. Another disturbing finding of our review of the documents is the air force legal communities efforts to discredit the data showing their own data showing significant Racial Disparities. Despite the strong conclusions of a1, j. A. Has attempted to discredit the importance of the data, specifically in the background paper that ja created in 2016 claiming that the disparity between blacks and white are punished could be the result of a small number of additional actions. Lieutenant general rockwall reinforced this message recently in a briefing to the air force four stars where he told them, quote, even a few additional disciplinary actions have a far greater impact on the report rate per thought for black air mern, end quote, due to the smaller number and went on to misleadingly illustrate the point by using a ratio of ten to one of white airmen to black airmen rather than the raetz of five to one. That it could be explained by a few disciplinary actions is false and j. A. Needs to stop this line of argument. The disparity in calendar 19 in air force alone represents an additional 520 article 15s for black airmen, not an additional few as implied by the legal world. In other words, black airman received approximately 1,105 article 15s last year. If they were punished at the same rate as white airmen they would have only received 585. The impact of Racial Disparity across all of the services in the last ten years would easily be in excess of 10,000 additional extra punishments meeted out against black men, not a few additional actions. Air force needs to focus on finding solutions and causes, not discrediting the significance of its own data. We released our report in may of 26 of this year and it had an immediate impact. I credit the air force and general for acting quickly by ordering an investigation. But what must not be forgotten is the action initiated by the air force last week to investigate disparities, would not have occurred if they had been successful in keeping this information from being disclosed. This hearing today would not have been held but for the fact that we were willing to force the air force to disclose damning information that it wish to keep hidden. This is a reminder of the importance of transparency and why the military must faithfully meet the foia obligations. How much further could the air force be in addressing the Racial Disparities if had put the energy in finding solutions in 2016 rather than seeking to cover up its embarrassing failures. I look forward to any questions you may have. [ inaudible ]. All right. Now we are going to hear from ms. Brenda pharrell from the gao in a has recently provided the report. Miss pharrell. Thank you, madam chairwoman. Ranking member kelly and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss gao findings and recommendations about Racial Disparities in the military Justice System. The uniform code of military justice, the ucmj was established to provide the statutory framework of the military Justice System. It contains articles that punish traditional crimes, such as unlawful drug use and assault as well as unique military offenses and including diser shun. Every active member of the army, navy, marine corp and air guard is subject to the mcja with individuals disciplined from fiscal years 2013 through 2017. A key principle of the ucmj is that a fair and just system could foster a highly disciplined force. My statement is based on our report issued in may 2019 on the capabilities to assess Racial Disparities among other matters. Let me briefly summarize any written statement. My statement is divided into three parts. The first part addresses the collection of race and ethnic Group Information in the military Services Investigations, military justice and Personnel Data bases. We found that the services did not collect information about race and ethnic group in the data bases. Thus, they were limited in their ability to identify disparities which are instances in which racial or ethnic group was overrepresented. Specifically the number of potential responses for race and ethnic group within the 15 data bases across the Services Ranges from 5 to 32 options for race and 2 to 25 options for ethnic group which could complicate Cross Service assessments. To address these inconsistencies we made recommendations to d. O. D. And d. H. S. , the Parent Organization for the coast guard to collect and maintain race and ethnic information in the investigative and Personnel Data bases using the same categories recently established in the uniform standards for the military justice data bases. D. O. D. And d. H. S. Concurred with these recommendations. The second part of my statement is addressing the extent of Racial Disparities and disciplinary actions and outcomes. Since the services did not collect race and ethnic group data consistently, we analyzed actions initiated and recorded in each Services Investigations military justice and Personnel Data bases between the years, physical years 2013 through 2017 to ensure we had consistent profiles for Service Members, we merged records using unique identifiers such as Social Security numbers that were common among a military Services Data base. We used o. M. B. Standards to consolidate the ethnic values and conducted regression analysis to test the association between a Service Members characteristics such as race and ethnic group and the odds of a military justice action. By using this approach with available data we found that an asection of disparity at stages of the military justice process the findings are inconclusive regarding other stages. For example, we found that black Service Members were more likely to be subjected of recorded investigations in the military criminal investigative data bases in all of the services. Further, black Service Members were more likely than white Service Members to be tried in general and special Court Martials in the army, navy, marine corp and the air force. The coast guard data was not available. The last part of my statement expressed the causing of disparities. D. O. D. Has not evaluated the cause of Racial Disparities and we recommended that they do so to better position them to identify actions to address disparities. D. O. D. Concurred. In conclusion we believe that for the system of military law to be recognized as fair and just, by both service neb members and the american public, d. O. D. And d. H. S. Need to take actions to implement the may report and that concludes my statement. You did it with eight seconds to left. So let us start with colonel christiansen. I was stunned in reading the report that you found that in the air force a black Service Member was 71 more likely to be charged for nonjudicial punishment i believe, for Court Martials. In the army it was 61 and in the navy it was 30 and in the marine corp it was 32 likely. So clearly the air force is the grossest outlier although they all appear to have statistics that bear a high degree of bias. It appears to me that you had to work very hard to get that foia request complied with. How much time did it take for you to actually get that information, from the air force. That is a great question. So there were two separate foia requests. The first one we asked for the raw data we got fairly quickly. Air force answered within a month with just raw data. But in the first foia request they talked about establishing this disparity panel, i thought, hey, great, theyre going to look at this and when we did the followup, it has been three years since we filed that foia request and we still have not gotten all of the documents that we requested. For example i have no idea what the qualify fiications of a sin person on the panel were and we had to go to federal court and filed suit in december of 2017. We did not get a final judgment from the judge until march of this year. So it was an onerous tact and we were fortunate to have a great group of yale law students and professors willing to fight this but the average person looking for foia evidence could not get that kind of support. And so it was over a year and three months before you got the data that you requested. Well it was over three years. Over three years. Three years. Yes, it was a three year struggle. The first request we took about six months for everybody to get the information to us. But when it came to the disparity panel, the findings and the recommendations, that is a threeyear struggle. So after your report came out with the stunning statistics, when did you hear from the air force . Ive never heard from the air force. For any of the other services . I have never heard from any of the services. None of the services reached out to us to talk about the report or findings. What do you think the military should do to show that its taking these disparities seriously . Well, i think first thing we need to realize is that this is information that i know that the air force is tracked for decades. Back to at least the 80s. And nothing was ever done. So there is a long track record of doing nothing. When our first report came out in 2017, that was an opportunity to put into the public, a lot of Media Coverage and congress was concerned about that, that is an opportunity to show that they were going to do something about it. They havent. General cold fein ordered the investigation but the thing to remember that investigation, that is an internal air force investigation by the i. G. Who worked for the general. They need to be looking at outside sources to come in and talk to them about that, and experts on disparity and people understand what the causes are. And i think one of the things that they have to accept, because what we have seen to limited degree nev looked at it, they have tried to look at it exclusively unconscious bias. They have to accept that there is also actual bias. There are actually people who are prejudice serving in the military. I dont think it is most. I dont know if it is many. But that we do have that. There was a naval officer who was just accidently disclosed his racist beliefs on facebook by Live Streaming a conversation between him and his wife that was racist. Hes an academy grad and a retired captain. We have to accept that this isnt just or unconscious bias. That there are people who dont like black people or other minorities and dont want them in the military and they have to try to root this out. But leadership needed to stand up decades ago and it needed to stand up in 2016, it needed to stand up in 2017, it needed to stand up in 2019. It has to show that they really care about this. Miss pharrell, what would you want us to make sure that the department of defense does moving forward . Thank you, madam chairwoman. We think implementation of our recommendations are key. In fact, i the recommendations in our report are a road map for d. O. D. With the funnel chapter being the causes and the disparity and taking steps to make corrections. I think continued oversight in this area is necessary especially as my colleague on the panel has noted these disparities have been lig lingering for sometime and now we have indicta to pinpoint where there are differences so d. O. D. Could target where to start looking for the causes of these. So i think continued oversight is necessary. We noted in the report that the National Defense authorize act which is geared at 2020 had provisioned consistent with several recommendations. Some deadlines have been set there terms of when d. O. D. Must begin to look at, say, the causes of disparity but there is not an end day. I think it was recognized that more data was needed and this is going to be a very complex review but in order to make sure that that report is completed, i think congressional oversight is going to be very important. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Kelly. Thank you chairwoman spear. And first the cause of Racial Disparity across the society and across the military service is illusive except for those who are blatantly racist and there are those in every organization, including in the military. What recommendations, if any, do you have that would be helpful for the departments in getting after the causation and fashioning of remedies and also understanding that causation that arent those that are intentional. Those cultural or whatever disparities that are caused by culture. What remedies would you have. Thank you, Ranking Member, kelly. Well i think general gold fein is taken a good step on that by actually getting the input from the rank and file of the services. Weve heard from protector defender since the first report came out from a lot of black Service Members who have talked about what they are experiencing. I think the air force particularly is incredibly white officer corp. The Fighter Pilot communities is less than 3 black. And so i think there is a lock of understanding, what the black Service Members an other minority Service Members are facing. The difficulties they face, the lack of mentorship. In 2015 air force times ran a good article about promotion failures for black Service Members, failures to get promotes and to get in residents pme and so getting this Service Members at the top to understand that there are issues that are impacting the way black progress throughout the military and other minorities is key to that. And second, i want to understand the significance of years of service on in analysis. In the gao report you included air force but not the other services because it closely correlated with rank. Are we looking at generally a problem that is focused primely on younger Service Members across the sfervices and if so how does this compare nationally to trends. And for you, maam. Thank you for that question. We did do a analysis and a multivariant where we would control for certain characteristics such as years of service or rank and each Service Model was a little bit different. We worked very closely with the services in order to understand what was going on with their particular service. As far as comparison between older and younger, we did not develop that particular analysis to target in terms of that. We are aware of some studies that are done in the private sector. But we did not try to make any comparisons of what going on in the military Justice System to what is going on civil Justice System. I hope that answers your question. It does. And back to mr. Or colonel christiansen, im sorry, i want to go back in my career, when i first got in, 30 something years ago, i think i had the first africanamerican First Sergeant in the Mississippi Army National Guard that served under my command. So you rarely saw any senior ncos. I could name on the one hand who were africanamericans in the mississippi facial guard when it is 40 africanamerican. Now i condition count. And many of those are my soldiers who i mentored. I personally made a difference who are Sergeant Majors and Sergeant First Class who are First Sergeants. The last three Brigade Commanders that followed me are all africanamerican. Not because their africanamerican, but because theyre the best we got. The absolute best. So now it is there. So you served as part, during the data that we collected from 2010 to 2014 you served in the air force is one of the chief legal roles so what did you see and what did you do and now with the experience you have now, what would you do now different to change the outcome of what happens in the air force colonel christiansen . That is a great question. And i agree the army actually is further ahead in officer corp being africanamerican. The air force lags behind the rest. What did i see . Look, i never prosecuted someone that i thought was innocent. Of course i dont make the prosecuti prosecution decisions. Somebody else does as you know. I dont think it was a case that innocent people were being brought to trial. What i thought the problem was is that others were getting the benefit of the doubt based upon whether the relationship, implicit, explicit bias were getting the benefit of the doubt. So for example two years ago the air force decided to prosecute a black nco for being six minutes late to a work, to a meeting, excuse me and he has a Court Martial conviction. That is a decision that truly should not have been made. I doan care if it was an article 15 or not. Just the optics of it. What did i do . Well one thing i was very concerned about and raise an issue was the lack of blackjacks. We do not have enough. We have one of the great former ones sitting behind me in colonel orr but when i retired i believe we had one of 124 colonels in the jag corp were africanamerican. So i encourage the africanamericans that work for me to try to make a career out of it, to be concerned about it. I sat on a Selection Board, i encouraged the people who also sat on that Selection Board to focus on finding good africanamericans to come into the jag corp because i think part of that experience of that they would bring in would be important for that bias. What have i done since . Obviously filing this report. It was important to me. I knew the data was there and it troubled me throughout my career. I never saw leadership really address it. And i thought it was important to bring it forward. Thank you, chairwoman, i yield back. Thank you, mr. Kelly. Were white ncos that were six minutes late Court Martials. Ive never seen anybody Court Martials for being six minutes late other than this africanamerican. That is stunning. Miss davis, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you madam chair and to our witnesses, thank you for joining us. Colonel christiansen, you could talk without getting into the weeds too much a little bit about how you gathered your statistical information and i just wanted to get a sense of the statistical analysis, whether that was very different from miss pharrells and then ill ask miss pharrell to talk about that and whether you think information was concealed and sort of your level of confidence, i guess, with the analysis and whether it revealed sort of what you are trying to get at here. How do we do that . Thank you, congressman davis. So for the initial foia request we requested from each service ten years of data showing their rate per thousand of Court Martial article 15 for africanamerican, whites and other minorities. We received that data from everybody except for the navy only give us two years and the coast guard never responded. Data we got from the air force was the best. And i knew their process would track it well. A very confident that the data they provide us is accurate. And what we saw out of that data was a historical disparity of racial where blacks were prosecuted and given article 15s at a much greater rate and it is getting worse not better. And that is what we saw across all services. The army did not track nonjudicial punishment and the marine corp only tracked by convictions. They didnt so we dont know how many cases were charged. Just convictions. The marine corp was interesting as the more severe the punishment, the greater the disparity. So for example by the time we got to generals the disparity was almost 2. 6 times greater for blacks than it was for whites. The issue we dealt with the coverup was the followon about the Racial Disparity panel that the air force said they had established. And ms. Feral could you respond to that and are there areas where you werent able to get the information and really had some sort of lack of confidence maybe in some of that data . Sure. Ill be happy to expand upon our methodology. Our methodology was for a different time period than dons. His was a much longer. Our focused on the physical year 2013 to 2017 which was the data, the latest available data. We experienced very good cooperation from the department of defense. This was a very rigorous analysis, as i noted. We obtained the reports, all of the records for that period between fiscal year 2013 and 2017 and in three categories of 15 data bases across the services. There were some places where date as w data was incomplete and that is the reason we found disparities that were statistically significant at certain stages of the military justice process. But at other stages the findings are inconclusive and it is usually inconclusive for two reasons. One, incomplete data. Not that any of the service did not provide the data. But the data was incomplete. Such as nonjudicial punishment, the data was incomplete for the army and the navy as well as the coast guard. So it was very inconclusive. But we received very good cooperation from d. O. D. The analysis that gao did in getting all of the information together take time. It is not something that d. O. D. Could do routinely in a manner that is why it is important to carry out of the recommendation to adapt their personnel and their investigative data bases to have the same uniform standards as the military justice so that Going Forward, especially if the causes of disparities are identified and steps are taken to remedy though, we want to be sure that you have good data in place. In order to be able to find that progress. Okay, thank you. And i hope that in our next discussion well get into those causes and colonel christiansen, going back to you quickly and in your analysis you felt it was important to look at legally trained military prosecutors. But i guess within the judicial system we would probably all agree there is always there is some bias there. How do you think that is different . In the military, how could it be different, if im understanding your question. Yes. Well, i think rather than leaning on the commanders, the military legally trained military prosecutors, is that a different kind of bias that they would bring to their positions . Well i recognizing there is bias in the judicial system as well as in the military and as well as in society. Do you see that in different and why would that recommendation be there . Well, as i agree with Ranking Member kelly, there is always bias no matter what system we have and that is unfortunate. The reason that we talk about that is the bias that the command decision who the commander who has the power to make that decision, is he knows the accused and also know the person he decided not to prosecutor not to give an article 15 to whereas as a prosecutor i did not know anybody until i walked into the court and i could not have a bias against them one way or another. That is the key. That is an inharnts bias in the chain of command if they havent established the same kind of relationships of africanamericans that work for them as they do with the white Service Members that work with them, i think it will have a negative impact. And you feel that the prosecutors wouldnt bring that kind of bias at least in. What are other biases that they actually, miss davis, youve gone over 1 51. Okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you, madam chair. Next we have miss escobar. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you so much, madam chairman and many thanks to our panelists. Colonel christiansen, it is interesting that you mentioned the coast guard. Because i just recently read a report about the coast guard which obviously is under the department of homeland security, not d. O. D. But the report by the Inspector General found that incidents of racial harassment were not there were no consequences for cadets who use the racial slurs against fellow cadets. No consequences and there was a history of this. So i think one of the things that we are going to need to do is really kind of take a look at really a broadcast sense of causeality, including whether folks are punished for using racial slurs, et cetera. But to both of you, and i know were going to get into this more in the next panel, but as were talking about the causing factors, what would you say based on the research you have done, what are the caused factors in this disparity, in the research that you have found. Well, that is an excellent question. And it goes beyond my expertise in what the data that we have, as the data shows this is a problem. And that is what we were hoping that the military, each service would do once the problem was brought publicly to light to them, that they would look for the causes and we were limited on what access we have on that. But just as someone who served for 23 years and has served all of that in the military justice world, i do think that the racial makeup especially of the air force leadership without a doubt has some impact on the disparities that we have. General hyten, when he tiestifid to become the vice chair [ inaudible ]. When he became the vice chair, said that basically the issue of race was behind the military. And that he, when he looked at the service, it was color blind as he did it. You know, and that is the problem. There is two fourstar africanamerican generals in the entire d. O. D. So we would really need to focus on the inclusion of all races and their voices and understanding the issues that young black Service Members are facing. Thank you so much, miss pharrell, your thoughts and anything come to mind as you were conducting your research . One of our objectives was to determine what steps d. O. D. Had taken to determine causes of disparities and what we found was there has been some steps but not a comprehensive review. By steps there is Climate Surveys, that gain information on perspectives of Service Members. But going back to the the 70s, 80s, 90s, there hasnt been a focus on the military Justice System and causes for disparities. We again think that our report pointing to certain stages of the military process could help prioritize where to start looking for the causes and that is a recommendation d. O. D. Has agreed with but also in the National Defense authorization act for 2020 there is a provision consistent with that that by i believe it is this month that d. O. D. Will proceed with such a study, commence it. Thank you. Thank you both. Im quickly running out of time. I just wanted to make note for something about something with my colleagues and with the chairwoman. Weve been talking about this issue for the last year and a half and it really is important in terms of not just africanamerican Service Members but latinos, and also im very curious about impact on immigrants in our services, especially when we have a commanderinchief who [ inaudible ] on treatment as well. But one of the things that we have found is at the highest levels of authority, within the military, it is just it is even less diverse. And it may be because of the adverse military judicial system encounters that you all have pointed out. That may be one of the underlying causes. I know im just about out of time. Thank you both, again, for your work and i yield back. Thank you, miss escobar. Miss laurie you are now recognized for five minutes. Thank you and i want to thank mr. Christiansen and ms. Pharrell for joining us today and that highlights something. To say that justice is blind but it is showk that justice is not color blind. And having served myself in the military, having been a Commanding Office and part of the njp, nonjudicialnonjudicial punishment process within the command, i think that underst d understanding that and the lack of data that has been collected and the lack of reporting requirements that existed, i think thats very useful for us here as a committee to understand the scope of this problem and get after true core issues of why a despaisparity c exist. Miss farrell mentioned the fact theres command climate data, command Climate Survey data as well that i think can be informative on this. Its part of the Bigger Picture because we dont necessarily have accurate data for nonjudicial punishment to go off of but can you elaborate on how command climate data could help info inform one of the previous questions from miss escobar. Is there a way to try to incorporate that into the analysis thats taken regularly. From all commands and from the perspectives of people who are not involved themselves personally in accusation or going through the nonjudicial punishment pros process. Could you elaborate on how that could maybe be a piece of the data . Sure. Be happy e b lab rate. The surveys are required. I believe dod has gotten much better in the past few years making sure theyre administered thanks to a little help from congress. They are design ed to help an incoming commander understand the working environment and what issues he or she may need to focus on while they have that command. Theres usually a standard set of questions that are answered then the incoming commander can ask some additional questions. Climate surveys have been very beneficial to obtain perception of Service Members and many personnel areas. Ive worked with them looking at hazing as well as other Sexual Assault issues, so i think the surveys could be reviewed in order to see if theres something that could be gained. We have to be careful about survey fatigue. We hear that from dod all the time, but this comes down to where is this issue of racial and ethnic despairties in dods priorities. So command Climate Surveys could be, could have some issues incorporated. The status of forces is another survey. Of active duty. Theres standard questions, often the questions change, but when issues emerge, the dod uses the survey to ask a set of questions over a period of a few years to try to dig deeper to see whats going on. So there are survey instruments already in use that could be used to obtain more information about this particular issue in the military Justice System. Thank you for that. I think as we look at you know how we try to collect data to assess the situation to identify the root causes that we could we could consider there is Additional Data on just the statistical data about the types of engagement that happen. And i do think it could also be somewhat difficult and i think we have to be clear on how we collect that data because Different Things stop at different phases in the njp process. Some may never reach captains mass or office hours terms of service uses for that process and some may stop short of o that, with just assigning extra military instruction and other things. I think theres also an absence in the process with the attempt to maintain good order and discipline, attempt to use the process when theres a supposed infraction to improve the performance of the soldisoldier military instruction and things like that which are clearly required to address specifically the issue at hand and are not viewed as punishment but ways to improve their performance and make them better soldiers or sailors. I think that definite collecting the data is very important but i appreciate your work and researching this and i think that we need to do more to understand the problem more, to get at the root causes and train ing is an issue as well. I think as a commander officer, the navy was specifically justice course and you know t n then addressed specifically looking at Racial Disparities or uniform applications to the Justice System. I apologize, but thank you again. I look forward to the next panel as well. Thank you. Now miss highland, youre recognized for five minutes. Except youre not there. Well come back to you. Thank you, madame chairwoman and i want to thank our panelists for being here today. Im a product of the navys used to be the affirmative action program. I went through this program called broaden an opportunity for officer selection and training. It took enlisted personnel, people of color, help prepare for college. So it was part of the navys process to get more people more into the officer ranks. As you stated, colonel, 78 of our military officers are white. 8 are africanamerican. Even low eer for asians and hispanics. When you talk about the impact of the lack of representation in the officer ranks and how it has disparities in our military Justice System and you mentioned about the lack of when you were in the air force sh the lack of diversity in the jag core korps there. But what do we need to do as far as recruiting goes to bring these numbers up . Recruiting more diverse officer corps really help solve this problem in the criminal Justice System in the military of the, the disparities in it. I think you know prioritizing definite ly as you talked about that opportunity to go from young enlisted black Service Member to become an officer, how udoh we encourage that process. What are we doing to make sure the officers have mentorship that they and that is so key. How far do you progress in the jag corps or any other part of the service depends on who you have for mentors and so do we have people looking out for those young black officers and making sure that they can progress . Are they getting opportunities to go to professional military education and residence, which is a key to getting promoted. Especially to the general officer and flag officer rank. And then making sure that they are operating in a good environment. So storatory just broke this we about the racial problems at west point and that the cadets there, the africanamerican debts, i believe 25 said theyve been subjected to racial abuse. So weve got to make sure that at the institutions that are giving us our future lead eers that the people serving and trying to get that commission are treated with respect. In the 2019 report, recommended the army and navy select data such as race, gender, punishments. Can you elaborate on the importance of clegting this data and update the committee on the services progress on this area . Yes. This is an area where the data was inconclusive because those three services has incomplete data. What happened was in conducting our data reliability check, we identified the number of nonjudicial cases in the court of appeals for Armed Services and reports from fiscal year 2017 and comparing those numbers with the services military justice databases as well as their Personnel Databases and we found that for the army, roughly 65 of the reported cases were not in their databases and those recorded cases are in the report that goes to congress and the secretary of defense. About 8 of the cases that were reported in the annual reports were not in the navys database and about 82 of the cases for the coast guard were reported out but not in their databases. So we made a recommendation that these three services have complete information on nonjudiciary punishments. After discussions with them, there were some concerns about how they would do that, so the recommendations actually to determine the feasibility including the benefits and the drawbacks of having complete non judiciary punishment data. We know that the army and navy have moved forward and decided they want to have this information and perhaps you can learn more about that on the next panel. The coast guard plans to make a decision about the feasibility of collecting such data in september of this year. Thank you, i yield back. Thank you. Miss holland followed by miss trayhan. Thank you, chairwoman. Chairwoman, i dont have any questions at this time for this panel. But i will be here for the next panel. Thank you. I yield back to you. All right. Thank you. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chair. Ill just put my bias out there. I dont generally believe it takes years to change. I do believe it happens closer to an instant. Especially when we have a strong culture and leadership, which is something i believe we pride ourselves in. Do you believe convening authorities should be left to commanders or do you think u that the current process increases the risk of unconscious or overt bias within our military Justice System and ill just add my second question would be do you believe that if the convening authority were transferred to a separate department, it could decrease the Racial Disparity highlighted in these reports . Thank you for the question. While that is the core principle mind to become part of the 21st century and have prosecutors make prosecution decisions versus convening authorities. I think the command control system and military justice, they know the people involved. Its going to cause a bias no matter how good the commander is. No matter how desire they are of not having a bias, theyre going to have a bias because they know the people that have been alleged to have committed a crime. I think that weiss is going to carry you over throughout the process because of the way the chain of command works. If you have the Committee Authority system, they weigh heavily on the views of the commander. The prosecutor based system which is not perfect, no system is. But as i said before, when i prosecuted a case, first time i laid eyes on the accused is when i came to court. I didnt know who they were. Race wasnt an issue unless for some reason it was an identification issue as part of the reported investigation and so i think it reduces the chance that racial biases will impact the decision made by the person deciding whether a case should go to trial or not. Her second question. What was your second question . Thanks. I think colonel christensen answered it. If he believes that the convening authority would transfer to a separate entity within the department it would decrease the Racial Disparity. Ill ask miss farrell if he has anything to add otherwise i have maybe just another follow up. Go right ahead. Thank you. I would say to answer your question, we need to see dods evaluation of the causes of disparities at these different stages in order to pinpoint exactly what needs to be done in terms of correction along the lines that youre talking about. And so are the commanders today who are holding convening authority, are they receiving training on these issues in are we arming them with the tools to recognize Racial Disparities and ethn ethnic ineck pities . Thats probably a better question for the other panel to answer. My understanding is the air force has said they are now doing that. I dont know, but as the jao report found in may of 2019, it doesnt seem like anything had been done by that time to find causes or solutions. Okay. Thank you, panel two. I yield back. Mr. Brown. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chair, r for allowing me to wave on to this panel. Im going to have a longer statement to make before the second panel so ill just jump into some questions for our panelists for the colonel and miss farrell. Thank you for being here. I guess this is the concern i have looking at what we did in the nda that asked gao to study this issue and then in the ndaa, putting to the dod to come back with an assessment of what the causes are. And heres the concern i have. So i need some help. Colonel, you said that you witnessed a case where a black man was six minutes late for formation. He was Court Martialed. Never saw that with a White Service member. When you talk about implicit racial bias, typically in that case, if you would have brought to that commander hey, look, you just sent a Court Martial, a black guy, and in the last month, weve had three white guys, six minutes, seven minutes, ten minutes late and you didnt do it, often with implicit bias, that commander might say wow, youre right. Let me take a look. Its often benign. Its unknown when brought to the attention of the offender if you will. Theyre willing to make corrective action. From everything that youve said about your efforts to get information from dod, theyre unwillingness to explore the causes of this disparate racial impack to military justice, im concerned that in the gao study, were putting to the do drd too much responsibility to come up u with guidelines for how to address disparities. Discover or research the causes of disparity and develop a uniformed set of demographic criteria or classifications so we can better understand it. Heres my question chlgt what can congress do today to ensure that dod is doing these things in the gao report that gets beyond the resistance that you and your organization have seen . Whats some specific things that we should be doing . Well great start is what were doing right now. Its putting the dod on notice that this is Something Congress is concerned about. But i think Congress Needs to send the message to the various services that they do not expect that this is going to be a quick solution, so for example, my understanding is the air force aig wants to have the investigation wrapped up by the end of july. Thats ridiculous. This is a decades long problem. Youre not going to find problems and solutions and causes in two months. Second thing is that the Congress Needs to make clear to the dod that they expect them to be reaching to outside entities to help with the solution. True experts on disparity. On what causes racial bias. True experts on finding Racial Discrimination and then as has been required in the most cerect nda, they continue to report back to congress with the same vigor they do with Sexual Assault report thats released each year that has to have the same koind kind of detail, same kind of depth to it. Miss farrell . Ill pick up where he left off. In terms of external reporting. Thats one of the recommendations that we have seen progress on in terms of dod will is expect ed to include because of the 2020 National Authorization act, dods expected to include demographic information in its annual reports Going Forward so thats going to help with the transparency, but thats still quite a ways off. I think congressional oversight period congressional oversight is going to be necessary. I agree that doing an evaluation of the causes is not something that can be done in just a few months. Having, prioritizing where dod is going to look at, which stages its going to get behind and also bring in consultants. Going to be very important. Again its going to be r very important i think for the services committee, specifically this subcommittee and others to have dod brief or have another hearing to understand what progress theyre making toward that final report on the causes. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you once again for allowing me to wave on. Let me just end with this statement [ inaudible ] special and general Court Martials remain about the same for black and white Service Members yet significantly more black Service Members are brought to Court Martial. That appears to show two things. One, that Court Martials are not convicting because of race, but evidence and two, that commanders are preferring charges on more black Service Members for reasons other than the strong weight of evidence against them. I guess finally let me just ask you, is that a fair statement . I do think thats a fair statement. I believe our Court Members try to do the right thing. I dont believe i ever saw u a single panel where they were racially drif nn their verdict. I do worry again that the decision really what were talking about, that the White Service member gets the benefit of the doubt, their case is handled at a a different level than what the black Service Members are. Thank you. I did not hear all of that question, but i think you were asking questions related to what gao identify ied at the beginni of the military justice process and what we see at the end and its quite a different picture as weve discussed. Actions are more likely to be identified at the r very beginning at the judicial process when a Service Member is under investigation. When we look at outcomes in terms of convictions and punishments for convictions, we found that there was no statistically significant difference among races in terms of conviction and similar results were punishments, no statistically significant difference except for black Service Members in the navy were less likely to be dismissed or discharged after conviction. So theres, theyre at opposite ends of what we see in terms of disparities at the beginning of the system and where we see them end up at the end. All right, again, thank you both very much for your testimony. Well take a short recess so we can bring our second panel to the table and hear from them. Welcome back, everyone. We will bring this hearing together once again and its my pleasure to introduce our next panel. We start with Lieutenant General charles petey. Judge advocate general for the United States r army followed by vice admiral john hanic. Judge advocate general of the us navy. Lieutenant jeffrey, Lieutenant General jeffrey rockwell, judge advocate for the United States air force and finally, general daniel leche, commto the marine corps. General petey, well begin with you. Ranking member kelly and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity. Im sorry, general. Could you move that microphone a little closer to you . Absolutely. Hows that . Better. Thank you. Madame chairwoman, kelly and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity. We meet on a topic of vital performance ensuring every soldier is guaranteed its foundational promise. This has been my charter across 32 years of service and it is the commitment of the generals corps and the Army Leadership. Just two days ago in our army celebrated its 245th birthday. Because of the service and sacrifice of many, i believe that today, our army represents our countrys best ideals more than ever. Yet, i also believe that like the country we serve, this is still much more that must be done. Our hearing today reminds us of the origins of our uniform coded military justice. It was born out of a concern for fundamental fairness for those suspected of a crime. Our codes due process guarantees, zealous defense, impartial judges and appellate review are its corner stones. Over the years and thanks to the work of many on this committee, the code has been reformed and improved its central puchs have been these are the pillars on which our combat effectiveness rests and theyre the reasons why our army is the best in the world. But as good as our Justice System is, we can never take for granted its health. It requires constant care. By well trained Law Enforcement, educated commanders and equ qualitied attorneys. Working together with the congress we have brought it closer to equal justice tr ufor all, but close is never enough. In may 2018, the gao found Racial Disparities in our Justice System. Onclusion, this report raised difficult questions that demand answers. Sitting here today, we do not have those answers so our task is to ask the right questions and find the answers. Im joined by my partner in this effort, Major General, the armys martial general, my partner in this effort, Major General kevin vareem. He supervises our military police, criminal ingait es and laboratory. The effort to examine os our system is a shared responsibility. With us and with our commanders. As we assess this issue from investigations to command decisions to the disposition phase, we must do so with a common framework in the right stake holders. That effort must start with seeing ourselves. This began last year as we began implementing the gaos recommendations. We were also working with other services to execute 540. That now visionary statute directs us to identify, investigate and resolve potential disparities in justice. Finally, we continued to improve our internal data sharing. Recently, the general and i established a lin between his Law Enforcement database and our justice database allowing a degree of interoperaablety that never existed before. This began before the recent events and followed across our nation and within our formations. As that demonstrates, data alone cannot tell the full story. We must look beyond the data and ask the difficult questions. General vareen and i along with army leaders need to look hard at ourselves. With commanders, we must look at the causes. And we must understand how preconceptions and prejudice can affect the investigation and disposition of misconduct. While my experience tells me we have an extraordinarily Healthy System of justice, i also recognize we simply dont know what we do not know. It is our job to discover what needs fixing and to fix it. To do this, ive directed a comprehensive assessment with the martial general to get left of the allegation. Left of the disposition decision. To examine why the Justice System is more likely to investigate certain soldiers in what our investigations and command decisions tell us about this issue. Finally, we know that each of us is shaped by our own backgrounds and experiences. As the secretary, our chief and Sergeant Major recently reminds us, leaders of all ranks must listen with compassion and humility. I believe our Justice System is one of the best in the world, but i also know it is not perfect. A Justice System must be both just for and seem to be just by all. We have much to learn and more work to do. General varee nerks and i along with the Army Leadership look forward to working with this committee to understand the problem and to address it. Thank you. Thank you, general. Admiral hanic. Ranking member, thank you for the invitation to testify on the issue of Racial Disparity in military justice. Department Navy Guidance emphasizes several things about equal opportunity. The first is that sailors and marines are our most precious resource. Second, that Unlawful Discrimination undermines units b ability to function efbl effectively and cannot be tolerated and third, that we must overcome any bias or stereotype that diminishes cohesiveness, comradery or morale. In a recent message to the fleet, the chief of operations commented on this. He said in the navy, we talk a lot about treating people with dignity and respect. In fact, we demand it. Its one of the things that makes us a great navy. And then observing recent events in our nation, admiral guildy added we cant be under any illusions about the fact that racism is alive and well in our country and i cant be under any illusions that we dont have it in our navy. We cannot have those illusions. So the navy denounces racism. This is antinet cal to our core values of honor, courage and commitment. To our obligation as Service Members to support and defend the institution and to help protect the rights afforded to all americans. Military Justice System must operate without discrimination, without racism. All sailors must be able to have confidence in the fairness of the system. The may 2019 gao report identified dispair fis related to race and ethnicity. To summarize those that were identified for the navy, black sailors more likely than white, to be the subject of an investigation in the database used by the naval, criminal Investigative Service and other navy Law Enforcement elements. The same for hispanic. Service members. Black sailors were also more likely than white sailors to be tried by a general or a special Court Martial. So were hispanic sailors. When it came to assessing the ruts of Court Martial, there was no significant difference between the conviction rates for black, hispanic or white sailors. And as the gao witness noted on the last panel, for those found guilty, black sailors were less likely than white sailors to receive punishment of discharge or dismissal. The gao was correct that there may be disparities at different points of the system and we appreciate the recommendations they made the help. When those are combined with the requirements of section 540 i in the ndaa, my hope is that will result in improved data, the process to determine when that data should be reviewed and an evaluation to identify the causes of the disparities. Regarding Data Collection, the marine corps system has been dated to collect the race, gender of the victims accused for each gender and special Court Martial. I have more work to do in two areas. The first relates to summary Courts Martial. Because the navy Prosecution Offices often are not involved directly in the summary courts sh martial and we are reviewing procedures needed to collect the associated data. And as the gaw witness observed the second nonjudicial punishment, they recommend ed te navy consider how we might maintain nonjudicial punishment information in a database and how to implement this recommendation remains under review. The navy is also taking steps to prevent racial bias. This is not a panacea but we cant let up. The naval leadership and Ethics Center provides training on unconscious bias for prospective Commanding Officers, xwektive officers and other leaders. The naval criminal Investigative Service on diversity and inclusion, on unconscious bias and cross Culture Communications to prevent racial profiling in investigations. We also provided training of unconscious bias and inclusion and diversity within the judge corps community. The navy is committed to ensuring the military Justice System is fair for everyone. Ni look forward to working with you to improve our Data Collection and to identify, understand and address these disparities. Thank you. Thank you, admiral. General rockwell. Madame chair. Rank member kelly, distinguished members, thank you so much for the opportunity to address the importance of eradicating Racial Disparity. Inclusion and diversity for all air and space professionals in the department of the air force. An inclusive and Diverse Force is absolutely necessary to defend a diverse and inclusive nation. Like many of our civilian counterparts, we collect data on race in the military justice process. Our data shows that blackmail airmen below the rank of e5 and with less than five years time in service are almost two times more likely to receive nonjudicial punishment in article 15 or face Courts Martial. While we review specific cases to ensure theres not dispaired treatment, we dont have clear answers or understood lying reasons as to why the disparity exists. Like all difficult issues the nation faces, solutions to address that will require a whole of government and societal approaches. We are committed to working with you to be part of that solution. Throughout our history, we have defended the nation. Fought and won our wars because of four simple, yet key components. First, the best people, second, the best training, third, the best equipment and fourth, the most important element that binds us together. Discipline. Discipline lies at the heart of what the nation expects of its military in the execution of our National Defense missions. Discipline must be developed from day one. Discipline must also be earned by the military establishment. By treating all of our members with dignity and respect. With equal opportunity to meet and exceed standards. We try to do that through inclusion, feedback, mentoring along with the administration of progressive discipline when airmen make mistakes. Before they become a disciplinary statistic. As our secretary in chiefs recently stated, our diversity strengthens us as much as our Common Mission ewunifies us. The department of air force strives to foster a churl of inclusion and respect where every airman and space professional is valued for the talents he or she brings to the department regardless of race, color or creed. Our struggle against racism and other forms of discrimination cannot be viewed as finite battles. Rather, it must be a constant struggle. When president truman sign ed i 1948, he set in motion racial integration of our armed forces. 25 years later, Task Force Found intentional and systemic discrimination in military Justice System. Many of the proposals identified then adoptedment today, while we believe we no longer have intentional discrimination, the fact is that Racial Disparity in the aggregate persists. This demonstrates the complex and challenging nature of the issue. Systemic or indicative of one of many symptoms. A daunting problem, but one that should not stop us from exploring what we can do in the disciplinary process to serve as part of the solution set, addressing it requires a holistic approach. Every day across the continuum of discipline, we are committed to finding new solutions and approaches. Every air and space professional, military and civilian from the most senior to the most junior, is responsible for fostering and reenforcing a culture of inclusion, dignity and respect. Like everything we do in the military, that requires a a team effort. Especially to get to the root causes of this difficult problem. We can frame an approach by asking ourselves four juxtaposing questions. First. While easy to say our data merely reflects or is perhaps better than the society from where we come, what can we do in the Armed Services . Second. While easy to say the specific cases show no actual disparaging treatment in the decision made, are we really including mentor ing and administering progressive discipline equally to all before they become an article 15 or a Court Martial . Third, while easy to say justice was color blind in each of the cases, are there administrative and due processes which are discriminatory in treatment or impact. And fourth, finally. While easy to say the data shows that the aggregate disparity disappears after the first five years in the force, what can we do to eradicate that disparity earlier . And all together. We look forward to working with the subcommittee on this very, on this moment important issue. Thank you, general rockwell. Y general leche. Madame chair spear, Ranking Member kelly, members of the military subcommittee. Thank you for your invitation to represent the marine corps and Racial Disparity within the military Justice System. The military is dedicated to ensuring quality from the most junior marine to our most Senior Leadership. Although we have come a long way, we have recognized much must be done. Several months ago, we sought a way to remoove the public disply of the confederate battle flag because of its divisiveness and hate and discrimination. Three weeks ago, the marine corp. Issued direction to remove the fleet from the battle flag from all across the globe. In his message to the marine corps, he stated quote, only as a unified force free of discrimination, rational inequality and prejudice can be fully demonstrate our core ralls and serve as the elite war fighting organization america requires and expects us to be. To that end, the common dant is committed to implementing the findings of the gao report. Disparities the gao highlighted in our administration of the swrus tis system and the marine corps require immediate scrutiny and demand action. The implicit trust marines place in one another make the elimination of racial inequality and imperative. As he tated, any form of racial inequality, whether it be direct, indirect, intentional or unintentional, threatens the cohesion of marine corps and must be addressed head on. The gao lisched two recommendations specifically addressed to the department of the navy. First, they recommended the highlighted need for our personnel investigation and military justice databases to use standardized data related to race, ethnicity and gender. Second and similarly, focused on standardized Data Collection for nonyjudicial summary punishment. My written statement provides the specific intentions stem frg the recommendations. Improved Data Collection brought about by changes from last year will help us to assess data to identify racial and ethnic disparities but we will not wait for better data to address and fight inequality now. How we train, educate and foster marines within our core is pair mount to ensuring the quality across our fighting force and within the military Justice System. Training and education serve as the fundamental components of eliminating racial bias. To this end, the marine corps is pursuing training curriculum at every level of professional development. Perspective commanders and seen yore enlisted leaders receive training on bias awareness through the marine corps university. Marines receive comparable training from small leadership. Even our military justice have undergone similar training within the past year. Such training and decisive Senior Leader action such as the con ffederate battle flags removal may not resolve the disparities overnight but our commitment to ensuring the quality among marines remains steadfast and enduring. Thank you and i look forward to working with you on this important issue. Thank you, general. Thank you all for your testimony. Id like to start by asking a simple question on transparency. We work for the public. And the fact that general rockwell, you fought the request for over three years is deeply troubling to me. Especially when it was said by the judge that this was on the aftermath of the air force manpower found that Racial Disparities are consistent, persistent and getting worse. And the judge then said when they attempted to get information about what you were doing about that, and you refused, the judge said this was an exercise which went nowhere. So tell me and the American People what was, what was, who was benefitted by not being forthright in complying with the foyer request . Madame chair, as you know, with foyer and you know the exsemss and you know which was invoked here. The predecisional. But thats always used when people dont want to comply with foya. Yes, maam. And when we looked at the underlying root causes, the data showed what you explained. The root causes of the 11 or 12 people on working group, there were 11 or 12 different answers as to what that group cause was and that truly, maam, did fall into why we protect that. Except you didnt do anything about it. Thats the problem. You stand up this air force manpower to do this evaluation. They come back with a pretty compelling statement. Consistent, persistent and getting worse then you do nothing about it. How is that dlib rative . It is consistent and has been since weve been collecting the data since 72. It is persistent because it is consistent. As far as it getting worse, it has pretty much stayed the same. At least in the air force across this time. One thing we know in the air force is to create this zone of innovation, this creative problem solve iing, these creat solutions, you have to give people, maam, the ability to, to really just look at this issue in different ways. I agree with you. Im going to move on. Thank you. Yes, maam. Admiral, the request for foya, the request was from i think 2006 to 2015. You provided only information and data from 2014 and 15. Why did you not provide the entire request . Ill have to take that question. We switched Management Systems in about 2014 and i think it was like lly dealing with the data d the amount of good data we could deliver but ill get back to you with the final answer. All right. Protector defenders when they came out with a report, found that the air force was 71 more likely to have black airmen face Court Martial than whites. Army was 61 . Navy was 40 . Marine corps was 32 . Did any of you reach out to protect our defenders to find out more about their study or how they could be helpful to you in dealing with this problem . General petey. I cant say today that i know specifically what communications we had with pod during that time. I can get that answer back to you x but i cant say right now. Do you have any intention of working with them moving forward . Weve talked with pod. Digested their materials. Weve used it to inform us, but i think we also spent a fair amount of time extensive amount of time, with gao and its Data Requests as well. So we have a lot of people asking us for information. So we provide as best we can and certainly in accordance with the rules, what we should provide to not only private organizations, but certainly government organizations. Thank you. Im running out of time. Admiral hanic, did you reach out to pod to learn more about their process or how they might be helpful . I did not. What i dont know is if anybody from our organization did, but i wish i had acted earlier. Thank you. General rockwell. No, maam. We are very much looking forward though to seeing what the field thinks about this and this is whats behind our ig independent review of this. Were able to talk to the very same people in the field that pod has been talking to. With a Multidisciplinary Team to get this type of feedback of what exactly is going on and what are those root causes. General. I think thats an where we can do better. Z z thank you. Do any of you think that someone should be Court Martialed for being six minutes late to a formation meeting . No, maam. General . It would depend on the circumstances. If it was in combat, absolutely. I think if it was late for a meeting here in the pentagon or in this chamber, the answer would be no, maam. All right. My time has expired. Rapging member kelly. I think we have to be real dangerous about using partial facts and figures. Six minutes late isnt a big deal unless its an ordnance that saves thousands of troops. Sick minutes late is not a big deep if its to a meeting with a subordinate but extremely important if youre meeting with the president of the United States or the secretary of defense. Six minutes late, if it is one time, is not a big deal. Six minutes late if its a pattern. So not knowing all the circumstances whether it was one sixminute thing or the other, i think were very dangerous. I think the colonel was dangerous in saying that lawyers are less culturely biased than command eers. That is a very dangerous assumption when he also said only one in ten jags are africanamerican so were less a representative in the core but were culturely superior to the rest of these commanders. I think thats a very dangerous asumgts to make. I think we have to be real here. Heres what we know. We know e5s. People are five years and below are treated differently if theyre africanamerican when theyre in the Armed Services. We know that. So we know what we got to get after. We know that it seems the referral rates when theyre tried to the conclusion are the same so that doesnt necessarily mean that people are being referred that shouldnt. It may mean the opposite, but we dont know. So what weve got to do is number one, figure out how do we quit being discriminatory to e5s and below and people with five years of service. What do we need to do to remedy that situation . Number two, wep we dont have an africanamerican Fighter Pilot. We know the promotion rates sometimes are slower to general officer or dont make general officer with africanamericans or minorities. We know some of the reasons. And so we got to get after them. Anthony brown has the elite act. If youre not a Fighter Pilot, youre probably not going to make general. If youre not a submarine or surface ship guy r or aifuater, youre not going to make admiral. You might. There may be some jag corps, some signal. If youre in the army, if youre not a tanker or combat arms guy, youre probably not as likely to make general. We know this. And so what are we doing to get africanamerican kids into those branches where we know promotions happen . Where you get the best schools because of the jobs that you do . What do we do to encourage them in what are we doing as a services to go after and make sure we got aifuaters who fly in the navy. Who cameome off decks of those carriers, to make sure we got africanamerican pilots who want to be f35 pilots which is a quicker track to being promoted to general. To make sure that africanamerican soldiers are getting in the right moss, the right branches where promotions exist. Thats what we got to do and i dont mean to preach, but we got to get at the root of this stuff. We got to get talking about some of these things that may be or might be. What we got to do, if you want to stamp out the problem, you got to figure out what the problem is. You got to figure out what the root cause is and i think right now, we are failing horribly at that. So with that being said, i want you to tell me, what are you doing in your service to figure out what the cause is therefore that we can make a change and a differen difference. Thank you. I think from a recruiting and promotion perspective, i think theres an intense focus right now and there has been, our chief of staff secretary institute ued a system last year and that in part is designed to fete after natural talent and talent that implicit bias might prevent from advancing, so i think theres a fair, theres not just a fair amount of emphasis, theres significant e emphasis. I have directed with the general, a look, very deliberate assessment trying to get left of the allegation. That means if we have an overrepresentation coming into the investigative system, how do we get in front of that allegation to figure out whats happening when a soldier getting to a unit such as they get in with the wrong crowd of start usie ining drugs or start misbehaving. Whats going on there . Or just to the left of the disposition decision to send someone to trial. Is there something going on there . So were looking hard at implicit bias. I take some comfort in this. When we started looking at implicit bias in the arena of Sexual Assault about ten years ago, it has now replete through u our training. Not only commanders, but judge advocates throughout and in my assessment, has had a Significant Impact on the understanding of counterintuitive behavior in Sexual Assault. We know training, education and implicit bias works. Can you guys really answer really quickly just like 15 seconds on what you can do to change that . Because im out of time. Thank you, Ranking Member kelly. First and foremost, i think we need to fit in with the navys overall effort and culture of excellence. Its about emphasizing signature behaviors and respect you talked with. Second thing is we have focused on diversity recruiting. We have a dedicated liason program. 18 officers closely affiliated with 13 education organizations to try to keep connections so we keep that pipeline open and then like general petey talked about, focusing on unconscious boys. T the reason i think it works is because i remember the first time i took unconscious bias train iing in 2014. It was only later when i realized i had an unconscious bias against unconscious bias training. I think it can be effective and i think we need it to keep at it and keep moving it through the force. Quickly please. Ranking member, kelly, we do it exactly the way you said it. You expand the discipline continuum from just courts and article 15 and you go left. When you u expand that zone and look at that, how you discipline somebody, counsel somebody, include somebody, give them feedback is the holistic approach we have to take. Ranking member, very quickly. This has to be top down driven. Everybody has to get it and it starts from the top and hes driven that down. We also have done it with our pack order prohibitive activities and conduct order that gets after discrimination thats been on the books for three years and involves equal opportunity ad visor to the commander. Its a commanders program. Thank you. Miss davis, youre recognized for five minutes. Like to know is about Early Warning signs. Is there an understanding that we really need to look at that. And that some of that information should be collected as well. Are there counseling sessions . Are there concerns about retribution . How do we begin to really understand that better. And how is that used . The other thing that i think were all excuse me, what were all talking about right now is the element of white privilege. And i wonder to what extent is that an area discussion that really can be brought in, in the military as well . How is that talked about . Because as we well know, if you look at the data, there are plenty of ways of seeing and suggesting and really being open about how that how that affects us all, frankly. And i think we all have, in our own experience, those examples. And how it might have been different if our son or our daughter was black or brown. What does that mean . I think thats an important discussion to have in the services as well. And then, finally, i just want to know how do once we identi identify implicit bias, what do we do about it . If were to go back and look at the progression of circumstances for someone and the outcome, what is it about that how do we identify it . And what would we do . I mean, really, talk about that a little bit as well. Thank you. Do you want to start, gene l general . Madam congresswoman, again, i believe it starts at the top. And i believe it starts in an honest and candid conversations in a safe environment. You can do this in the military. We believe in the marine corps that this is commanderdriven and commanderowned. But you have to begin with those. You have to view diversity in the force with strength. That begins with the commandant all the way down to the most junior. You have to accept that as a strength, because at the end of the day, thats what the marine corps is about. Fighting as a team. Everybody on the team, regardless of gender, ethnicity or race is very important. And thats the bottom line. As my colleagues have stated here, you know, pathways and mentorship to young people. To look at the military, to look at the marine corps as a path for them. We have work to do there, but we can do that. These are things that can be settled now. Thank you. Maam, when i look at the numbers we have right now, and i see those numbers and it makes you realize that the numbers are good data, at least from an article 15 and a court standpoint, its not evidence. Its not evidence to get to the root cause of the problem. So the last part of your question, how do we train on bias . You look at the way attorneys always look at things. You look to weed out bias to get to the weight, relevance and credibility of actual evidence. I think one of the approaches we must take is to develop more data left of article 15. We dont have that data. We kind of know thats where the problem is. What we dont know and what we cant answer for sure is are we mentoring everybody the same . We all feel that we probably arent, based on those biases, but we dont have the specific data to show that. Once you get that data, of course, you move on to the training. You move on to the speaking of bias. You move on to the training of that, you move on to weeding that out. And that all creates an atmosphere of inclusion. You create that atmosphere of inclusion. You just created diversity. Okay. Thank you. Admiral hannink, miss davis has about 15 seconds, but well extend 15 seconds to each of you to finish your comments. Only additional comment i would have is i think the value of unconscious bias training and other decisionmaking training is that you put yourself in the position where you can take different perspectives and you bring other people on your decisionmaking team as well. Thats very protective for the final decisionmaking and everybody on the team. Admiral. I think you should know that the army is focused on the squad level. The chief of staff and secretary is all about team and inclusion and bringing people all on one team so they all feel they belong. That gives you a better ability to diagnose where people are going right and left and center. That focus at leadership at every echelon all the way down is key at getting after this especially when it comes to unconscious bias. Thank you. Miss halen, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair and thank you for Ranking Member kelly for holding this hearing. Thank you, panelists, for being here, this is a significant problem that we absolutely need to fix. Fair and just for everyone. In the 1960s my father served in the marine corps and experienced first hand the maturation of the service into a fully integrated force, along with the racial tensions that flared up during that time. Weve progressed since then, but we can all agree, we still have a long way to go. It was disheartening to learn that despite the data presented in the 2017 protect your defenders report and the report the services have responded with little more than unconscious bias training to address widespread Racial Disparities. Meanwhile, black Service Members continue to receive nonjudicial punishment at disproportionate rates compared to white Service Members. And why we dont see Service Members of color achieve higher ranks which is an issue this committee has consistently raised and which Ranking Member kelly articulated a few years ago. The general spent three years worth of time and resources refuting our protectors report and preventing the data made available to the public at that time. And those resources could have been spent excepting that there was a major problem and tackling headon. Its clear that the Racial Disparities in the system requires more than a disparity board that met for 90 days to try to resolve it. So my question one of my questions, i have a few. Will this include improving will all of the work that you mentioned earlier about addressing those longterm issues, will this include improving the collection of data on race and ethnicity to make it more uniform across the services so its easier to identify problems . Yes, maam, it will. We are making a conscious effort to, again, move that left of that article 15. And courtmartial on the continuum. And collect data, collect meaningful data of inclusion and mentoring. I think thats critical to gettiget getting to the root cause of the issue here. Thank you. And what is the time line for actions to be taken . If you could just reiterate that, general rockwell. What were were doing it now, maam. And right now, the projected time line with the group that has been put together with our manpower and reserve affairs and personnel that were a part of is calendar year 20. Okay. Thank you so much. And last question well, maybe the last question, general, depending on my time, how will the progress be measured . I think ultimately, you measure progress by eliminating that Racial Disparity. You get to where we are right now in the air force, at the e5 level with five years in where there is no disparity. I think that has to be the ultimate goal of where we should get to. Thank you so much. And i have a little bit of time. So, i will ask this next question. I understand the Inspector General will be leading a review on Racial Disparities and factual cultures. The makeup of this panel can certainly make a difference in its effectiveness and what its recommendations look like. Can you describe the makeup of the panel . I dont have the full details. We have three members on that panel. But it is it is fundamentally a large panel. It has general officers on it. Who are black and africanamerican. It has chiefs on it. Senior enlisted who are africanamerican. And it is it is multidisciplinary. And multidiverse. Again, the idea is to get left of article 15. And to get to that, there are so many different factors that need to be looked at. And i think whats going to be key is reaching down into what people feel on the ground. And thats really the focus of what theyre trying to get to. Thank you so much. Madam chair, i yield. Thank you, miss hollan. Mr. Cisneros, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, and thank you all for being here today. We have a problem in this country with sentencing in the along the civilian Law Enforcement there, our criminal Justice System. People of color tend to get longer sentences than white individuals do. Is this something were looking at in the military as well . We know we have a problem with e5 and below, going to courtmartial or receiving njp more often than white Service Members do. Are we looking at the sentencing . And really are these individuals of color being sentenced more harshly than their white counterparts . Sir, ill go first. As we looked at this issue with regard to the gao report, as a matter of fact, black airmen are sentenced less severely than white. I think that and thats both with article 15 punishments and courtmartial sentences. I think all that tells us is this issue is much more complex than we can really wrap our admiral, correct me if im wrong, but that was for more senior members, above e5, right . Im talking about the more juniorranked . No, sir, even the e1 to e5 ranks when you see the Racial Disparity. When you break it down further in the air force, white airmen are actually punished and sentenced more severely than the black airmen. Will the yield yielgentleman. Yes. The gao report it said that female white members and white male members are more likely to be punished in the marine corpse. How does that square with what you said, general. Thats in venue selection. To courtmartial. But in the end when they are convicted and punished, their sentences are less in the air force. And again, maam, i dont know what that means. Its just as you pull apart the data and analyze it, thats what we see in the air force. I dont know if thats the case in the other services. You know, if i could, on the other services, if i could take those answers for the record, i have another question regarding the collection of data and in regards to njp and the Commanding Officers. As we are doing the njp, as youre collecting this data, are we collecting individual data for these Commanding Officers . And looking at their records and trying to find these Racial Disparities and how theyre dishing out punishment . And if so, if were starting to see these Racial Disparities in the punishment that theyre issuing, are they being counseled at all . And anybody can take that question. Id like to hear from everybody, if i could. Congressman, this is general pede from the army. I think the short answer is if we looked at our Data Collection today, we cannot track that i cant hear anything right now. My mic is activated. Okay, i hear you now. Sir, this is general pede from the army. Sitting here today, we do not track a particular commanders disposition by command or by race. I think in terms of reflections how we get after the notion of potential bias, whether unconscious or deliberate, that is part of, i think, our assessment. When general vereen and i talked about how a Law Enforcement officer reacts at a scene, or a commander disposes of nonjudicial punishment, i think this is one of the areas we look at. I would tell you as a practicing judge advocate for 32 years, those are evident whether a Brigade Commander or a division commander. They see things in their formation, especially particular commanders who are doing things who appear to them odd or suspicious. I myself, only one occasion in 32 years, remembers a commander in such a circumstance as you suggest. Its worth looking at. I think we have to, and i think its the responsible thing to do in our assessment. Thank you, sir. With that madam chairwoman, i yield back my time. But i would like to hear a response on the record from the other judge advocate general. Thank you. Well ask that you prepare a response for the record. Thank you mr. Cisneros. Miss strahan is recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you madam chair. And in case it wasnt clear before, i do want to say, for the record, that im grateful for the leadership of chairwoman speier and the subcommittee. Because back in 2012 when addressing Sexual Assault and harassment reporting, i think it led to substantive changes in the dod culture. But when it comes to equality injustice, we are an impatient nation. So, im going to ask the same question that i asked before in terms of convening authority. If you believe convening authority should be left to commanders or do you think that the current process increases the risk of unconscious or even overt bias within our military Justice System. Can you return to the video portion . We dont see you . Oh, im sorry. Im sorry. Can you see me now. We see you now. Thank you. Maam, this is general pede from the army. Youve probably heard me say this before, but i have complete confidence in our commanders to administer justice fairly and dispassionately, especially at the senior levels. Its not that i dont have faith in lawyers. I love my corps. I love the judge advocates we recruit, train and educate and nurture and culture. But theres no monopoly on bias or unbias. Theres no monopoly on wisdom in your legal branches. I look to the federal and the state sector, and im not trying to throw anybody under the bus. But thats a lawyercontrolled system. And by any measure, whether its the sentencing project or doj bureau of statistics, the Racial Disparities in those systems are well in excess of what you find in the military services. Thats not by way of excuse, but thats a lawyercontrolled system. So, i dont believe the answer is lawyers. I believe the answer is a set of cross checks and balances between Law Enforcement, commanders and lawyers looking at each other in the system and keeping each other honest. Thank you, maam. Anyone else want to comment on that . Does anyone have a different view . Okay. Im going to my question. Given that im sure youre all looking inward with a lot of urgency. One of the doas finding was while black males were more likely than White Service men and women to be tried in general courts across the services, race was not a significant factor in the likelihood of conviction. And so, im wondering what do you believe that says about the military Justice System, what it indicates that the bias is more prevalent among the juniorship ranks who are recommending Service Members for njp or court partial or the leaders that are ultimate ultimately pressing them . Congresswoman, i think this goes back into the first question and you can dovetail this into the first question of what you just asked. When you look at what a commander does of setting the tone. And then the commander setting that command climate, and you look at this issue, and and we think we know where the answer is, where the targets are, where the targets of opportunity are that is left of 15. We know then that where this has to happen, when the unconscious bias needs to be eliminated. Where the meantoring and inclusion happens is that first line e5 supervisor, over those e4 and below airmen. And when you look at setting that command climate, knowing the commander has to do that. And letting that supervisor do that, thats where we have to focus the help, the training, the data and everything we need to collect. Does anybody else want to add anything to general rockwells comments . Well, i think, madam congresswoman, i think from the marine corps perspective theres two pieces. The gao report was pretty clear with the racial bias and data could not be lawful because we dont fully understand the data. To general pedes point we have to get left of the data send figure out what it means but secondly, something that the commandant has made here, the commander has to train and educate their subordinate personnel about the importance of this equality and diversity in the force. And how that makes us stronger. I think thats something that the commandant himself has gotten after. And that were taking very seriously in the marine corps. Well, i appreciate all of that, certainly, you are to back up the data with a root cause analysis along all of those. And i understand the air force is going to completing a survey. General rockwell, will those findings of the surveys, will those be public . Yes, congresswoman, i imagine they will be. Ill defer all of that to the i. G. Who is running it. So, we do get an independent look at this. Yeah, i cant believe those will not be open and transparent. All right. Miss trahans time has expired. Thank you. Thank you. Well now go to mr. Brown for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, again, i want to thank you and the Ranking Member for allowing me to weigh on this afternoon. I want to thank each of our panelists for testifying today. I want to thank you for your service to our nation and in our armed forces. And for your stated commitment to end Racial Disparity in our military Justice System. We are at a difficult time in our nations history. A time when Racial Injustice is seen in the violence against black americans by local Law Enforcement. A time when persistent Racial Disparity disparities and help are illuminated by the stark contrast were witnessing in the disproportionate deaths of covid19. A time of disparity in this nation, our educational system, our workforce are compounded by this pernicious pandemic. Today, were at a time in americas military, an institution that led this nation in integration is now flowing with growing White Nationalism in our ranks. An institution that saw the first africanamerican captain at west point 40 years ago, now retired army general vince brooks. Yet, it took until last week, before we could confirm our first africanamerican service chief general brown of the air force. And we still have a military whos 61 fourstar only include two africanamerican officers among them. An institution that benefited from the Courageous Service of nearly 1,000 pilots during world war ii who completed the tuskegee training program. And yet there are only 446 minority Fighter Pilots in the armed forces. Less than 2 of our pilots are africanamerican. An institution after world war ii in 1951 began to operate under the ucnj which in many ways has been way ahead of the changes, the positive changes in the civilian criminal Justice System until terms of the writes of accused and defendants and yet the disparity of men and women in uniform. That is where we are today in our nation, in our military, and it cannot be where we are tomorrow. Weve got work to do, and we need to do it now. Gentlemen, i take a lot of stock in the work of gao, and it came back, i thought, with a thoughtful report and list of recommendations on how we can get better. And my question is, what more do you need from congress in order to complete your evaluation of the causes of any disparities in the military Justice System . And are you consulting any outside resources that have expertise in this area in order to complete this evaluation . We can start with the army. Well go down to the air force and then the navy. General pede. Yes, maam, thank you. Congressman brown, thank you for the question. What we need from congress, as i mentioned in my statement, the care, attention, desire, passion you bring to these issues to help us help ourselves. To see ourselves as critical. So, i think that will continue. I know it will. And i want you to know personally i welcome it and so does the Army Leadership. With respect to outside resources, sir, were sort of with respect to causeality, were in the very early stages of figuring out what can cause this. Were developing a framework this very week and last week to figure that out. I suspect that will include outside assistance. Thank you, sir. Admiral hannink. Sir, i think section 549 of the ndaa was an excellent road map. I think that point was emphasized from the witness from the gachlto. I think the focus on Data Collection and then solving assessment, understanding and what to do about disparities is the right way ahead. I agree with general pede on outside assistance. I think that is going to be important that it be deliberate. That it be thoughtful, and its not going to be over quick. Were going to have to continue this effort. And thats where i think the outside resources can be incredibly helpful. General rockwell. Sir, i have i have a lot of faith in what our i. G. Independent review is going to do. I have a lot of faith that theyre going to look at this internally and holistically. I also have a lot of faith in our manpower and reserve and a1 team whos leading the effort. Now, you asked a question about what kind of outside help are we getting . That that manpower and Personnel Team is getting a lot of outside help. So, i have quite a bit of faith in that, to see what else can we do to get to get to this elusive solution set here. General lecce. Mr. Congressman, i dont believe at this time that we need any help from congress, but i appreciate the opportunity to testify here. We just have a lot of work to do. We just have to get after this. We realize were at the beginning. Were looking at data, were trying to understand the data, but theres a lot of hard work that has to be done. The commandant is my boss. I keep mentioning him because he has made this an important plank in his commandanccommandancy. I think that starts the candid open conversations about how to get after this and thats what the marine corps is doing. Thank you, madam chair. All right, generals, admirals, thank you so much for your participation today and for your commitment to the rule of law. Let me just end with a few comments. 540i was put in the ndaa not by you, not at your request, but at congress request. So while youre relying on that now to recognize that there is work to be done, it would have been a whole lot better if it had come from you. General lecce, you said it a number of times, it starts at the top, and you are right. And i hope you convey to all of your chiefs of staff how critical this is to the congress of the United States. General pede, you said much like Sexual Assault and Sexual Harassment in the hill temilita have to focus on this as the same laser focus that we provide for that issue, and i agree with you. We are at a transformational point in this country, civilian and militarywise. And i think that there is a lot of work to do. Theres a lot of data that has to be collected. But we have to make sure it is consistent across all of the services. And that there is transparency. I hope that we dont have to have another hearing where we have outside groups coming to us and saying we cant get the information. Gao, in a number of circumstances said she couldnt get the information. We have to be forthcoming to the American People. We intend to continue this work. We will have you back to see how youre doing in hopes that youre going to be making Great Strides in dealing with the antiracism that we have now have to review in society generally. With that, we stand adjourned. With the federal government at work in d. C. And throughout the country, use the congressional directory for Contact Information for members of congress. Governors and federal agencies. Order your copy online today at cspan store. Org. Tonight, on American History tv beginning at 8 00 eastern, a look at the life of dolly madson. Cspan in cooperation with the White House Historical association produced a series on the first ladies, examining their private lives in the public rolls they played. The first ladies features s intimate biographies of the first ladies. Tonight on cspan3. Michael petretlli here to talk about a piece. What is the Fordham Institute . High, greta, the thomas b. Fordham institute is a think tank located in washington, d. C. We also do undergroundwork in the great state of ohio. And what is your goal . You know, we track everything happening in education policy and education reform. We are big fans of public
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