In vietnam. And earned a masters degree in history from George Washington university in 1971. He currently lives in middleburg, virginia. And is a member of the library of Virginia Foundation board. He has been a former staff writer for Congressional Quarterly in washington, d. C. He has written for Many National newspapers and magazines, among many others, the smithsonian, the washington post, the New York Times, baltimore sun, chicago tribune, and the Christian Science monitor and usa today. He is the author of five books, including the one that hell be speaking on today, including, saving monticello, published by the free press in 2001. A book that received excellent reviews and offered the First Complete postjefferson history of this american icon. The book reveals an amazing story how one jewish family saved monticello for posterity and used the house as a family home for 89 years, which is longer than the tenure of the jeffersons at monticello. Mr. Leepsons newest book is flag an american biography. This leepsons tribute to the flag debunks longstanding myths and reinforces proud historical narratives from a nation that at its conception needed a commanding emblem that was both unifying and representational. At the conclusion im sure hell entertain questions from the audience. And i will circulate with a microphone to get those questions because we also have a special guest today, which is cspan, so marc will call on you. I will bring you the microphone, and well make sure that your questions are preserved for posterity or how long videotape lasts. [laughter] i also wanted to quickly mention after our time here you can go and purchase a copy of flag or saving monticello in the library shop. And mr. Leepson will be available to sign both or either of them for you. So without further ado here is marc leepson. [applause] marc thank you very much for coming. Thank you, greg, for that good introduction and thank you for reading it just as i wrote it. [laughter] im going to talk a little bit about this book i wrote about the American Flag. And im going to kind of give you a little bit of history of u. S. Flag 101 today in about a half hour. And of course ill just be able to skip over the highlights. We will have time for questions. When i was setting out to write this book, i kind of knew in my heart that americans had a special feeling for our flag. But i wanted to confirm that. So i interviewed all the flag experts. I read all the books that i could. I even got to talk to people in other countries. Universally, people have told me, and i have come to believe and i think its true, americans do have a special and unique feeling for the flag. Let me just illustrate that in a couple of ways. Number one, think about that now. No other nation in the world has any of the following, or anything close to the following things im going to list, much less all of them. No other nation in the world has its children pledge allegiance to their flag every morning, every school morning, and not just children, of course. Congress has done it in the house, since 1988 and in the senate, since 1989. 1999. And lots of other legislative bodies do it. That has been in effect, the pledge of allegiance was written in 1892. Our national anthem, star spangled banner, do you know what our National March is by order of congress . The stars and stripes forever by john philips sousa. We have the u. S. Flag code, 10 sections in the u. S. Code has been since 1942, long detailed set of guidelines as to how our flag is to be used and displayed and the proper manner for everything having to do with the flag. We have flag groups. We have had lobbying groups for the flag, ever since the 1890s. We have had the u. S. Flag association, the American Flag association, and several others that have worked to foster a feeling for the flag, to foster patriotism. To foster proper use of the flag. What i find interesting given all of that this is not to sleight any other country, because people in other countries do love their flag. But no one even comes close to our flag codes, in other countries. I found one in new zealand and one in ireland, but nothing like we have. Of course we display the flag. You dont have to tell anybody, how americans when people come over here from other countries, they often comment about how much the American Flag is in evidence everywhere. The irony to me is that, given how americans feel about the flag, the history of the flag, especially the early history of the flag, is filled with myth and misinformation. I said it before, its a little bit of an exaggeration, but just about everything you think you know, everything i thought i knew, about the early history of the American Flag is either not true or a great exaggeration. For instance, lets go back to the colors of the flag, the stars, and the stripes. We dont know where the colors came from. We dont know where the stars came from. We dont know where the stripes came from. We dont know who designed the first American Flag and, im sorry to say, we dont know who made the first American Flag. Right . [laughter] if you go back to the june 14, 1777. Rick you have to laugh more. [laughter] if you go back to june 14, 1777 and you read in the annals of the Continental Congress, the first flag resolution, its just one sentence. One long sentence in the annals. Resolved that the nations flag shall be 13 stars white on a field of blue as in a constellation and 13 stripes alternate red and white. Hats it we do not who introduced it we dont know if there was a flag committee. We dont know if there was any debate. And we do know that Congress Approved it and that was it. They went on to something else. We have ideas about all these things but we dont have any primary source documents, none whatsoever. No letters, no diary entries, no contemporary newspaper articles, and nothing, certainly Nothing Official outside of that one sentence in the annals of the Continental Congress to give us a hint about any of these things. I think maybe you might say, well, i know what the colors stand for, i have heard that, red stands for the blood i shed. I know you have all heard that. That comes from something that a man named Charles Thompson who was the secretary of the Continental Congress, who was also the designer of the great seal of the United States, which if you think about it has red, white, and blue. And thompson was speaking of the great seal, when he gave that speech about the meaning of the colors. And that has although he did say the meaning of the colors of the great seal as in the American Flag, are such and such. Thats not official. Its never been anything official. Yet its come down over the generations as people of meanings of it. The colors, we dont know for sure where they came from but we can take an educated guess. And one of the things is the first hint about the colors is the colors of this flag. Its the union jack. We know what three colors are on there. And then the first American Flag, which predated the stars and stripes with this flag right here, which was raised by George Washington on june 1, 1776 outside of boston. This is whats called the continental colors. Its when he started the continental army, the official start of the continental army. Its the union jack and the 13 red and white stripes. Historians believe without any further evidence that the red, white and blue come from the union jack. It was on the continental colors. The stars, the best guess is that well, i think for for millennia, stars have been a symbol for striving for greatness. That is probably one thing. And the other thing is, stars have a very important part in masonic iconography. And we know that nearly all of our Founding Fathers were masons. The stripes, we dont know. Maybe the dutch flag has three stripes. And the dutch own part of these colonies, so they could possibly be that. Lets talk about betsy ross for a minute. Because almost the first question the book came out on flag day. Ive done several radio and tv and newspaper interviews. Almost the first question, especially from tv people, what, betsy ross didnt make the first flag . And the answer to that question is that we dont know. Theres no primary source. Theres no good historical evidence that she did. Now in her defense, the woman who is known at the the time as elizabeth claypool, she was married three times and widowed three times. She did make flags in philadelphia, on arch street, where the betsy ross house is. Although it might not be the house. [laughter] the streets were renumbered in the philadelphia, and they never she never owned the house, so the records are unclear. It might be the house next door. But it was close by. She did make flags on arch street. She did make continental colors so there are records of that. On the other hand, there are 17 other flag makers in philadelphia at the time. Like i said, about all the other theres no contemporary evidence whatsoever that she made the flag. And do you know when the nation found out that betsy ross was the maker of the first flag . 1870. Thats right. Almost 100 years later the occasion was her grandson, william canby, he announced that at a press conference at the Historical Society in philadelphia, that his grandmother made the flag. And he had evidence. But his evidence was family history. It was affidavits from his grandmother and greataunt that betsy made the flag. The analogy i use is historians , look at family stories as the least reliable historical evidence. Think about it. Remember the kids game of telephone. Where 10 of us were in a circle and you said something and it came out different on the other end. Well, think about 100 years later and what can happen. Still, you know, family members, you know still stay she made the flag. They also referred to the betsy ross legend. If you go to the betsy ross house they do speak of it as the , story is told or the legend is told. A little later on, im going to go over briefly over some of the reasons behind the reasons why the betsy ross myth took hold in the 1870s and Even Stronger in the 1890s. I know what youre thinking right now when youre picturing betsy ross. Shes sitting in the parlor with the flag on her lap and George Washington and two other people. Some people are thinking that. Rick is thinking that. [laughter] that painting was completely fanciful. It was painted in 1892. Well get to that in a minute. Well, who designed the first American Flag . As part of the betsy ross story is George Washington came to her. He was a little busy at the time running the revolution. [laughter] but the family says he came into the parlor and was part of the flag committee. Theres no evidence whatsoever there was a flag committee. There could have been. We dont know about it. There probably was not a flag committee. He was having trouble with this flag. And he gave her, and she figured out how to make the stars for some pattern. Also often credited with designing the flag. But the historical evidence, we do have historical evidence about the possible and probably e designer of the flag. That is a man named Francis Hopkinson. He was a member of the Continental Congress from new jersey, but he also he was a signer of the declaration of independence. He was also a a red colonial renaissance man. He wrote poems, he wrote plays, he wrote novels, he wrote music he wrote an opera. , he was also a heraldist. He designed the great seal of the state of pennsylvania. And he designed the official seal of the university of pennsylvania. Although it was not called that at the time. And he was on the First Committee to design the great seal of the United States. Now hopkinsons design was not the final design, but it was pretty close and it happened to have red, white and blue and had happened to have 13 stars and 13 stripes. What hopkinson did was he sent a bill to congress for the design of the American Flag. He had also designed some colonial currency. That bill is in, you know, in the National Archives of the United States. So putting that together, we , strongly believe that the designer of the flag was of the first American Flag was Francis Hopkinson. The other thing about the betsy ross situation, this is the quote unquote betsy ross, 13 stars in a circle. Weve all seen that. Well, no betsy ross flags exist from the time period. The earliest ones we have is are from the 1800s. What we think is the first American Flag is the socalled Francis Hopkinson flag. The stars are arranged simile similar to the way we are used to seeing them, three, two, three, two, three. And interestingly enough, apocryphal paintings not withstanding, George Washingtons army did not fly the stars and stripes officially. Youre thinking of Washington Crossing the delaware with james Monroe Holding the betsy ross flag. Well, that was painted in 1852. All the other paintings showing Washingtons Army flying the stars and stripes are also apocryphal. In fact, the United States military did not officially adopt the stars and stripes until the early 1840s. So the answer to the trivia question, what was the first army that the americans fought officially under the stars and stripes was the mexican war. Even though we associate, of course, the starspangled banner with the war of 1812, it wasnt official at the time. The other interesting thing i found out when i was doing for just doing research for the book, is the changes in the meaning of the flag, the cultural meaning of the flag and the way americans feel about the flag, has been tied in almost every instance to wars. We have the flag borne during the revolutionary war. We have the starspangled banner in the war of 1812. Then we have in the civil war the mexican war, you can say the first flag fought under the first war the americans fought officially under the flag. More important is what happened in april of 1861. Now, going back to the flag resolution of june 14, 1777, one reason that was just one line in the continental was because the flag did not have and they went on to something else. The flag did not have the cultural meaning that it has to americans today, not even approaching it. In fact, before april, 1861, it was unheard of for individual americans to fly the American Flag. It was used primarily in front of government buildings and more so in the military, and also on navy ships. That changed almost overnight in april of 1861 when fort sumpter fell, when the American Flag was taken down at fort sumpter it went up in the north. You know, if you read the newspaper accounts, the journals and the diaries of what happened in new york and in boston, and in philadelphia and in other cities, it is almost eerily what happened after september 11. You will read that, overnight, flags started to appear in front of every building, every schoolhouse, every office, every factory. And you know, we put the flag on our pickup trucks. They put them on their horses. People put them on their hats. Obviously, this was just in the north. In a lot of ways the newspaper editorials and the politicians framed the civil war over the the civil war as a fight over the American Flag. And it caused a sea change of an aamerican attachment to the flag. Because there really were not that attached. Obviously people were and it was used, but nothing approaching to the way we feel about it now. But that started almost overnight when fort sumpter fell. I saw in the New York Times there was a sign painter in new york city who has a sign outside his shop and said, colors, warranted not to run. This is reminiscent of bumper stickers we see today. The second half of the 19th century, the last quarter of the 19th century, we saw this change across nationwide. And a lot of it had to do with the grand army of the republic. The grand army of the republic was the first large influential veterans group. It was formed right after the war by Union Veterans of the civil war. They had ebbs and flows but the by the last quarter of the century, the g. A. R. , was a very, very strong institution. Yes, they worked for veterans and widows rights. Sort of like what Veterans Service organizations do now. They also had a very strong but attachment to the flag, and they also worked very hard to promote its use, as did the newly formed patriotic societies, which were formed in the last quarter of the 19th century, the sons of the American Revolution, daughters of the American Revolution and dozens of others. And if you read their literature, and even today they all promote veneration for the flag and proper use of the flag. This was the time when the Betsy Betsy Ross myth started, in 1870. And charles rice gerber painted that painting we know. He became a very promoter of the betsy ross myth to the point where he bought himself the betsy ross house and moved in there and lived there and promoted it. He had a son born, and he named the son vexile dominus gerber. For latin scholars, flag house weisgerber. And the poor little kid he , dressed him up in a Yankee Doodle uniform and had him perform patriotic odes to people who came to the house. He was a promoter of the betsy ross myth. But he was not alone and that , myth wasnt alone in what was happening at the time. The pledge of allegiance was written in 1892, that same year. It was written for several reasons. One, it was the 400th anniversary of columbus voyage and people were looking for something to rally around. The other thing is it was part and it was written by a guy named Francis Bellamy, who was editor of a magazine called the youths companion. It was aimed at children but it it was very popular. Had great writers and it was very popular. And Francis Bellamy wrote the pledge of allegiance. Original words of the pledge of allegiance. The original words were, i pledge allegiance to my flag, to the republic for which it stands, one nation individual indivisible with liberty and justice for all. And part of that was the postcivil war healing process. One nation, indivisible. But a larger part of it was, it was part of what was called the Schoolhouse Flag Movement, which was designed to get a flag in front of every schoolhouse. And the back story on that was, what was happening then . What was happening then was a huge influx of immigrants from europe by the millions. And part of the Schoolhouse Flag Movement was getting the kids the pledge of allegiance, getting the children of immigrants and immigrant children to bond to their new country and have allegiance to their new country. Also, flag day first was started in 1885, and that was also the brainchild of a private individual. A man named d. J. Seagrond, who was a son of immigrants from luxembourg. He was a schoolteacher and a one room schoolhouse in wisconsin. Very patriotic man. A one day he said, we should have a ceremony. He did it. He went on to make that his lifes avocation. His vocation was he became a prominent dentist in chicago. But his avocation was promoting flag day as a national holiday. He was tireless at it. He wrotes lots of books and pamphlets and spoke at rallies and got the patriotic and veterans groups behind it. It never did become one of our great huge holidays. 1960, president wilson did institute the flag day. Interesting,r speaking of Francis Bellamy and francis seagrond, one of the reasons that americans postlated that we have strong feelings for the flag is a lot what happened in the history of the flag has not come down through the government. Its come from private individuals like Francis Scott key who wrote the starspangled banner who was a lawyer in , washington. Like Francis Bellamy who was a newspaper editor and d. J. Seagrond and others who pushed the flag laws, including veterans groups. The flag Protection Laws and the proper use of the flag, which i think is an interesting thing that another countries, where the government is pushing it people might push the other way. , this is sort of a more or less grass roots thing. The first flag Protection Laws were, the first inkling came from the 1880s. And first were enacted in the states in the early 1890s. And the imptuss for them is rampant use in advertising. Rampant use of the flag. It came at this time because of rapid industrialization and mass production and also Color Printing had a lot to do with it. The list of products the flag was embossed on and used on to advertise is as long as you possibly could imagine. And every product you could think of. But the thing that sort of set sent legislators over the edge was when it appeared on beer bottles and whiskey bottles. And we had our first flag they were called flag Protection Laws. They were enacted in individual states one by one. By the early 1900s, 48 of the 50 states had flag Protection Laws. Interestingly enough although it kept coming up in congress, can you guess when the first when congress, the u. S. House and Senate Passed the First National flag protection law . 1968. It wasnt until 1968. And we all know what was happening then, the height of the vietnam war and the antivietnam war movement. Im going to skip a little bit. World war i, also, again, if you read the newspapers about after america got into world war i, april of 1917. Again, we had this explosion of American Flags everywhere. The painter did that flag series. He just looked out his window. He had a studio on fifth avenue in new york city he had a series of paintings that we see. The flag Protection Laws during world war i and after world war one, in the 1920s, were tightened up considerably. A lot was aimed at german immigrants. There was a fear that german there was a fear of german immigrants not being patriotic enough. Or being unpatriotic. The grande 1920s, army of the republic the g. A. R. , which lobbied for those things, it was civil war veterans only. Well, in 1919, after world war i, just barely when it was over the American Legion started. And the american lenalon picked up the mantel of the g. A. R. In a lot of ways, including the American Flag. Picked American Legion up the mantel of the g. A. R. In a lot of ways, including the American Flag. The American Legion and the veterans of wars, which started soon after, had been a strong proponent of the American Flag. In 1924 the American Legion called the first 1923, the first u. S. Flag conference. And what they did at this conference was in washington. It was held at constitution hall. They invited they had about 55 patriotic and veterans groups and or 60 of them. They came together and they sort of put together all of the flag codes from the various services, the army had one, the navy had one, patriotic groups had one. And they came up with this document that became the u. S. Flag code which finally became in the u. S. Code in 1942. But it was promulgated in 19 it was big news and it was interesting to read the newspaper articles on the coverage of it. President harding was there. And he spoke of it. When the conference was over, the newspapers everywhere published this new flag code. And it became popularized around the country. Ill tell you two quick flag stories about world war ii. One you do know. Maybe i can shade in a little meaning to it. And one you might not know. One is the story about the most reproduced photograph of the 0th 20th century. You know what that is. Joe rosenthals of the dust joe rosenthals photograph of the gis raising the flag during the battle of sarah bocce iwo jima. At hes still alive. He hasnt spoken much about it. But its really interesting to note i found some really interesting things i didnt know. Number one, he was the pool photographer that day for the associated press. He knew there was going to be a flag raising. He and a couple of reporters went to the top of the mountain and he clicked like this he did not develop the film. He didnt know that he would take the most reproduced photograph of the entire 20th century. He shipped it out to guam on an airplane. It was wired to newspapers in york and they sent it out. The next day every newspaper editor in the country knew what they had. And the next day it was it was on the front page of virtually every newspaper. The demand and when it hit the streets, people went crazy over it. So much so, that the newspapers put out special Editions Just with the photograph Editions Just with the photograph. When it became obvious what was going on. President i guess it was truman by that time. Maybe it was roosevelt. Threeecalled the surviving marines back home and they had a bond raising two or they raised phenomenal amounts of money. Also there was a man named felix deweldon. He was an austrian immigrant serving in the navy. He was a sculptor and an artist. He was working at the Patuxent Naval station and he saw the first image of the iwo jima photograph. He was so taken by it that he stayed up all night making a raw sculpture of it out of floor wax the only thing he had available. , [laughter] the next day he showed it to the,. Of the marine corps. Long story short. He wound up being the sculpture the official name is the marine corps memorial in washington. The iwo jima memorial in washington. The story about the flag during world war ii you might not know about, in the darkest days of world war ii, in the spring and summer of 1942, when morale wasnt good and things werent going well for us, an advertising man got an idea and came to the government and the government said, this is a great idea. He said, why dont we have every magazine in the country or as many as you can, put a flag on the july issue on the cover, unitedith the words, we stand. United weas the first stand campaign. And the current use of the day i call it united we stand two. United we stand one happened. Virtually every magazine cooperated. Ladies home journal, life, everyone, farm journal. They managed to get an image of the flag and the words united as one on them. The smithsonian had a collector who wound up collecting several hundred and they exhibited them a couple of years ago and it is on their website. It is interesting to see and i think people dont know too much about it. Briefly about the vietnam war, like i said, the history of the flag sort of ties in a lot of moments with our wars. As the vietnam war was different from other american wars in so many different ways, it was our longest war. It was our most controversial overseas war. It was a war that we did not win. The flag played a different role in the vietnam war than any other war. It became a symbol for both those opposed to the war and both those in favor of you. In favor of the war. Opposed to the war fluid upside down, a of distress. There were flag burnings during the vietnam war which led to the flag protection law. First federal i want to skip over to the flag protection law. And the u. S. Flag code. I did not understand until i looked into this. In 1968, we had a federal law in 48 out of 50 states that it is illegal to burn the flag or desecrate it. Abbie hoffman, the hippie happy protester was arrested on capitol hill at an antiwar demonstration. For wearing a flag shirt which , he purchased at sears, by the way. [laughter] he was arrested, handcuffed, taken away, put in jail, convicted. But his conviction was overturned. And that led, eventually, to a series of other challenges to the law, to the point where in 1989, the u. S. Supreme court ruled all state and federal flag desecration loss runs constitutional on first mimic grounds. As soon as that came down, Congress Passed another one. When Congress Passed that next law, we had the largest number of flag burnings on any one day in that country. People were protesting it. They got themselves arrested like they wanted to. They pushed it again to the Supreme Court. In 1990 the Supreme Court again ruled all of our we have no flag , desecration laws on the book. Which led to what we have in the headlines today, a movement to have the 27th amendment to our constitution be making flag protection flag desecration illegal. And that movement started immediately after the 1990 Supreme Court ruling. Its come up in Congress Nearly every year since then. Its never since its a constitutional amendment it needs 2 3 majority in the house and senate, and then 3 4 of the states to ratify it. Its passed the house but its never come out of the senate. The last thing i will say and we and we will have time for , questions. The current war that were in is interesting in one way about the flag, and that our troops of all things have been encouraged not to fly the flag. I think you know that. Remember that in the very beginning when we toppled that statue of Saddam Hussein and that marine took a flag out. He wasnt supposed to have that flag. And they put it on saddams face and it was quickly taken off because we didnt want that image of us having the flag. I dont think theres been an official order not to carry the flag, but it certainly has been the the troops know theyre not supposed to, which is another interesting part of it. I will end with the flag code. Now the flag code, which has been a federal statute since 1942 is a code. Its not enforceable. Theres no flag police. In fact, im going to read you the definition of things that break the flag code. The cover of my book mind. [laughter] might. Cover of my book section 3 of the flag code prohibits any article of merchandise or receptacle for merchandise or article or thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have been printed, painted attached or otherwise placed a representation of any such flag Standard Colors to advertise, call attention to, decorate, mark or distinguish the article or substance on which it is so placed. So when you go home this afternoon, realize that you are probably in violation of the u. S. Flag code. [laughter] the ironic thing, of course, is that virtually everyone who is in violation of the flag code probably are. Except where it is a uniform or patriotic society. The ironic thing is all of us all of the people who are in violation of the code by wearing it as a tshirt or hat or undershorts or whatever is doing it because of their love of the flag and to show their patriotism. Because rick asked me to, i will end with my one flag joke. [laughter] it goes like this. A man walks into an American Flag store and he says, i would like to buy a green American Flag. The storeowner says, well, sir, im sorry. The flag only comes in red, white and blue. The guy thinks for a minute and he says, ok. Ill have a blue one. [laughter] thanks very much. [applause] and we do have time for questions, so ill be happy to answer any. And by the way, i am not a vexilologist. Of course you know that is the study of flags. Theres a north american vexilogical association. I had one in the last audience i can refer the technical flag questions two. I am good on the history but summary asked me about the eagle filial on top of the flag. I had very barebones knowledge of it. Questions . You could be edited out of so dont be was flag burning popular in other countries as a sign of protest to American Foreign policy before the 1960s . You know, i dont know, but i dont think so. I think it was sporadic, but i think it sort of took on a new meaning during the vietnam war period. Yeah. Could you elaborate just a little bit on what you mean the longestflying National Flag in the world . Marc sure. Do you mean the stars and stripes being the longest flying National Flag . That, its a matter of interpretation. But if you go back to 1777 and look at other countries flags, nearly all of them have changed except for ours. Of course, ours changes every time we get a new state. We have the longestserving flag. By the way, as far as the stars are concerned the current the longest serving American Flag was the 48star flag. Which was 1912 to 1960. If we dont get a state in the next two years, the 50star flag will be the longestserving American Flag. First of all, im devastated about betsy ross. With your research, do you think that will change somewhat of American History, because if it is true, we dont want to be teaching our children wrong . This doesnt come from me. If you read, any historian who has studied it has come to the same conclusion that there is no historical evidence that betsy ross made the first American Flag. At the they even refer to it as a legend. And look up amazon kids books look up betsy ross, most are kids books. Most say she is a seamstress of the revolution. I dont think anything i say will stop that legend. [laughter] i have two questions. One, do other cultures fly the flag at half mast for times of tragedy or in remembrance . Marc you know, i think it is. Im not quite certain. I think it is. If you want to know the flag code actually spells out in detail what how long its supposed to fly at half mast and for whom. For instance, if the president , 30 days or Vice President and so on down the line now its not illegal and obviously during times of National Tragedy so its never improper to fly the flag at half mast if you are doing it out of respect for someone. But it is on the list of who, president s, ambassadors. I didnt know that. You also said that the civil war was the first time the flag really became a thats when it started to become a real symbol of patriotism. Im curious if pearl harbor and other National Tragedies i mean, you sort of touched on that was as big as one as september 11, lets say . Marc well, the big change in the civil war was, before that hardly anyone put a flag out in , front of their house. But there was a similar you know, when i tell people i was writing this book, they all said, yeah, after september 11. You tend to forget, this happened after the civil war and world war i and world war ii. The korean war, there was no big moments that people went out and did it. Of course, the vietnam war was so gradual and the flag was so controversial. It did not happen then. We all know what happened after september 11. We know a couple of members of the audience would like you to repeat the question briefly. You touch upon the vexing constitutional problem, given your reference to your own book cover possibly being in violation of the flag code and this constitutional amendment if it were passed. Could you just in terms of your experience and people that youve talked to, constitutional scholars just fast forward the what if question if the constitutional amendment passes what would be the implications of it . Marc what would be the implications if the flag desecration constitutional amendment is passed . Its very narrow, the proposed constitutional amendment. It is one sentence. It says flag desecration is illegal. It would open up the ability for states and the federal government to pass flag protection and flag desecration laws. It would depend on how strict and how narrow they make them in the 1920s, after world war i when the country was having big , social problems, you know, the red scare of the 1920s, and there was the night riders and there was the ku klux klan, part of what happened then was the states ratcheted up flag Protection Laws. Some of them had even you could have gone to jail for saying something bad about the flag. Im not saying that would happen now, but it would open up to whatever state legislators and the Congress Make it be. It would be constitutional because we would have the amendment. You spoke about hot wars, such as vietnam, the American Revolution. I was curious if ideological wars, like the cold war had any , effect on how the flag was portrayed or used or understood . Marc the question is, how about the cold war and what impact did that have on the flag . I can think of one sterling example right off the bat. And that is, the change that president eisenhower made during the height of the cold war in 1954, adding the words under god to the pledge of allegiance. That was totally the russians that was that was totally related to the idea of the russians having no god. In fact, there was a movement to put under god in the pledge of allegiance after the 1950s. Then one sunday, president eisenhower was at church in washington and his minister gave a speech about that saying, you know, this pledge, it could be russian kids pledging it. It doesnt say anything about god. The next day eisenhower spoke , out. A bill was introduced in the house and senate and it became the change was made. So thats the one example that , stands out the most for me. Did Barbara Fritchie ever wave a flag at Stonewall Jackson . That . Did everybody here Barbara Fritchie is theBarbara Fritchie legend true . My friends told me i cant give this talk in fredrick, maryland. Barbara fritchie was an historical figure. She was a 94yearold woman. She was there in fredrick at the time. But lets put it this way. The John Greenleaf would your poem people had to memorize by , the gray hair that was whittier. Not only did he not see it happen, but it was based on what you saw in a newspaper article based on a reporter who didnt see it either. It was thirdhand at best. And Stonewall Jackson did not go through frederick. So it couldnt have been him. The other thing is i did some , research and i saw a couple newspaper articles where a woman whated forward claiming happened happened to her. Sher name was mary quantrill. Brother she was a. She was a yankee. But her brother was quantrill of quantrills raiders. She said she was on her porch and was waving a small flag and some confederate took it away from her. So something happened. But im afraid that it was not and Barbara Fritchie died right after that. So she could not confirm or deny it. [laughter] are we good . Thank you very much for coming. Great audience. [applause] conversations]wd is bestry bookshelf known American History writers of the past decade talking about their books. You can watch our weekly series every saturday at 4 00 p. M. Eastern here on American History tv. On cspan3. Drum corps] [upbeat patriotic music] [fife and drum corps] sunday care about richard reforms of native American Government policy that led to the restoration of indian lands and inaugurated a new era of selfgovernment. Here is a preview. Some commentators say president nixon was influenced by an earlier 1968 message from president johnson that started to review indian policy. Some think he had read a comprise read a comprehensive memorandum to jim kehoe, one of his trusted advisors and director of speechwriting in the white house. But i think, and this was just alluded to, that there is a simpler and more Accurate Answer , which is that president nixon, personally held a very strong moral belief, that federal native american policy was destructive, it was discriminatory, it was debilitating, and its a play was not right forced assimilation and termination ran against everything in his moral core. As a young fellow i did not know the present well but i got glimpses into his thought processes and would say he did personalize his beliefs. In this case as was noted that personalization related to coach wallace newman, his the ball coach at whittier college. Coach newman was a member of the la jolla band of the Mission Indian tribe and the president set on more than one occasion that the coach had a profound influence on his life, and had inspired him and his teammates to be selfconfident, competitive and to never give up. If you go back to those days, long time ago, the president felt coach newman had never given up, even though he was really very much discriminated against. That was a time when native americans and other minorities simply were not selected as coaches for major football programs, rather than without a respect, to whittiers program. No were they respected selected to be major to receive major honors as players. The president believed coach newman would have been an allamerican if it would have been a different time and that he would have been a coach at a Big Ten School if it had been a different time. But that was not possible in those days. Nixon thought it was terribly unfair. I heard him say more than once he promised himself that if he had ever had the chance, he would correct the wrongs against native americans on behalf of coach newman. Watch the full program to study at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, 5 00 p. M. Pacific here on American History tv. 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You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online, or listen on our freetrade app. Nationalf the conversation through cspans daily washington journal program. Or through our social media feeds. Cspan, crated by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Or on our free cspan app. Creators from the National Portrait gallery, National Archives and the library of congress discuss their institutions exhibits commemorating the nineteenth amendment, which gave women the right to vote. They talked about the Creative Process behind the exhibits, including determining goals and selecting objects. The berkshire conference of women historians and womens Suffrage Centennial commission hosted this event online and provided the video. Hopkinsjohnson university, a copresident of the berkshire conference. Im happy to be welcoming all of you to this evenings conversation. 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