Having to lie i feel is the saddest thing the ugliest part f of beingirst a homosexual when y have yourou first bad lovesay im experience for instance and you cant go to your brother or your sister and say im hurting. At first i was really guilty, and then i realized that all the things that are taught you did i wasby society would buy psychiatrists or just to fit you in a mold, and ive just rejected the mold and when i rejected the mole that was happier. These are mostly independently organizations 16ye 75 independent groups across the United States may be more now grow overnight. This is a unified effort on the part of some of the 20 and 30 organizations from the east coast. The difference is s teprimarilyf approach isti certain groups emphasize very militant confrontation tactics, other groups will emphasize a more educational approach into areas where people who dont know very muche about homosexuality. And they emphasize different ne. Things. Most groups in fact inaudible people in need thise is a minor part of the this is a major effort today is to social institutions inaudible . Gay and proud a portion of a film documentary. This is what the Stonewall Inn looks like today. A look at the demonstrations that took place in july 1969. Joining us from Greenwich Village, new york, mark stein, the editor of the stonewall riots, a documentary history. Thank you for joining us on cspan. Thanks very much for having me. Take us back 50 years ago this week. What happens . The police in that period routinely raided gay bars. That was certainly the case new york city. There was a raid on the stonewall a few days earlier. And on the night of june 27th, the police began a raid and things proceeded in a fairly routine manner, some of the patrons were allowed to exit the bar and some were detained. It was very common for the police to detain bar owners barr managers, bartenders, people of color, people who transgressed gender so in the lingo of the day, trends vests tights or drag queens or street queens. And then people who talked back or fought back. Some people were detained inside the bar others began exited the bar. But on that night and by this time it was the Early Morning hours of june 28th, patrons and pastors by began gathering on the street outside. And as the police try to bring those they had detained into police wagons, the crowd began to erupt. Over the next three nights theyre ensued writing in the streets, protests, demonstrations. At one point the police were trapped inside the bar until reinforcements arrived, the tactical police, right control police, were called. And try to reestablish order on the streets. But the writing proceeded over several days over the course of the next week. But why this location . Why the stone inn and why june of 1969 . What triggered this particular set of . Riots its a complicated question. The Stone Wall Inn was mafia owned and managed as were many gay bars in new york city and some other American Cities and there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar owners, managers paid off the police in order to limit although never completely restrict police raids on the bars. The police would raid the bars even if there were these payoff systems in place. There are a lot of different accounts of why the police raided the bar that night. The payoff system might have broken down. There was a may your election that was going on and that was often a time when police would write bars as part of a crackdown on vice. The City Administration would appear to be promoting law in order. There were allegations of violations of Liquor Licensing laws, disorderly conduct, black mailing, other allegations about the Stonewall Inn in particular, so that was probably why the stone wall itself was targeted. Why june in 1969 . Thats a question that historians have been debating for a long time. In global terms 1968 was really a major year that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world as well as police reaction, state reaction, violent state repression so in some respects we can see the stonewall riots in 1969 is an outgrowth of the worldwide developments happening and then there were also local and National Developments as i mentioned, among your election, just days, weeks before the riots took place mayor john lindsey had lost the republican primary. To be reelected. Lindsay was known to be a friend of the Gay Community in the late sixties he ended up winning the election in 1969 but he did so on a third party. Ticket in late june nobody knew he was going to end up winning. There were also around that time a number series of Police Killings of lgbt people around the country, los angeles berkeley, oakland, california and new york city. And i think that contributed to the rage and the anger and the fury, that lgbt people felt that night and in the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots. Our conversation with mark stein, he is a professor of history at San Francisco State University and he is the editor of this book, the stonewall riots, a documentary history. We will get to your calls and comments in just a moment, we are dividing our phone calls regionally and we do have a line set up for the Lgbtq Community, that number is two zero two seven four eight 8002. But mark stein if you could for just a moment describe physically where you are situated. Directly behind me is the new Stonewall National monument which was created during the obama administration. Its a small park Triangular Park and behind the park is stonewall and itself, it is the two Story Building with beige stucco, and alongside of it a three Story Building that was also part of a stonewall in. So this is in grants village in new york city, lower manhattan. What did the monuments represent . When obama referenced stonewall alongside senate of false and selma in his inaugural address, it really signaled a recognition that lgbt activism, lgbt the lgbt movement was part of broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the United States. And that was a very powerful symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the United States is the first African American president of the United States. And then establishing the space, this monument here just as another way of signaling the road that has been traveled over the last, not just 50 years but even longer, to achieve lgbt equality, a still unfinished process, i might add. But it is quite complicated with the Stonewall National monument because this is an action on the part of the federal government which for many many decades was quite oppressive towards lgbt people, still, we have problems with federal policy and there is a kind of paradox that the federal government has recognized this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently the best example might be the ban on Transgender Military Service members so there is that paradox of recognition by the federal government but also ongoing struggles in problems with the federal government. You mention the speech by the president obama the second inaugural speech on january 21st 2013, from the west front of the u. S. Capital, heres what he said. That the most evident of truths, that all of us are created equal is the star that guides is still just as it guided our forebears through cynical falls along this gd stonewall, just as it guided all those men and women some and unsung who left footprints along this great mall, for heat to hear aa preacher say thatou we cannot walk alone. To hear a king proclaim that our individual freedom is inextricably bound to the freedom of every soul on earth. Says now former president barack obama in 2013, and one more point, mark stein about your location because its stonewall in itself is i guess, the best way to say it is a rather cozy bar, its not very big, is . It says its not very big in the large scheme of things, but actually it was known in 1969 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city and in Greenwich Village. It featured dancing, it featured go go boys, and so actually compared to some real holes in the wall, the Stonewall Inn was known to be relatively spacious. Why were these locations so important at that time to the gain Lesbian Community . In 1969, samesex sex was basically illegal in 49 out of 50 american states. There were also laws, federal, state and local laws that regulated lgbtq speech, that regulated lgbt participation in many aspects of public life. Difficult to get government jobs at the local state and federal levels in 1969. Barrs though were a congregation place, where lgbt people could come together, socialize together, enjoy time together, and in that sense some people argue that the bar was for the Lgbt Community what the church was for the African American community or with the factory was for the labor movement, central space for gathering, be coming active, developing ideas about social justice. And equality. In order to get a sense of how the media covered the gay and Lesbian Community back in the 1960s, i want to share with you up and our audience a portion of a now controversial cbs news documentary, one intito which dan rather has recentlyos. Apologized. For mike wallace in 1967, the title of the program was the mos homosexuals. Most americans are repelled by the mere notion of homosexuality. The cbs news survey shows that two out ofxual three americans f upon homosexuals with discussed, discomfort, or fear. One out of ten says hatred. The vast majoritys believe that homosexuality is an illness, only 10 say it is a ae crime. And favoryet here is the parad. Thets per majority of americansp legal punishment even for homosexual acts performed in private h between consulting adults. Rtheej homosexual, bitterly awe of his rejection response by going underground. They frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they can act out in the fashion they want to, where they can escape the disapproving eye of the society they call straight. That from cbs news in mark and mark sino you are familiar with this program as you hear that and see that, your reaction. The media was changing in the second half of the 1960s, as was the lgbt movement. I think that program was quite sound the criticized by the priest one will move prestonewall lgbt. Movement but there were other media stories that were more accepting and more open to change. One example would be the New York Times magazine published a major story called civil rights and the homosexual in 1967. The wall street journal in 1968 published a major feature story on the gear rights movement. And more generally the lgbt movement had success in the second half of the sixties. That was certainly true in new york city. Under the lindsay administration, there was a decline in sexual entrapment practices on the part of police. A decline in arrests for sexual solicitation. Some successes in Court Decisions that allowed gay bars a little bit more freedom to exist and to prosper and thrive. Things were changing actually in the second half of the 1960s. When we turn to the stonewall riots themselves, the media reports were interesting, conflicting and ever changing. So in that first week the New York Times, near post, New York Daily News did all cover the stonewall riots. But it was buried. News it was not prominent front page news. The Village Voice did major stories on the stonewall riots and had reporters on the scene even trapped inside the bar during the riots. Those were much more significant stories, but it was really the alternative press and the lgbt press that covered the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively. Those are the stories that historians rely on along with oral histories, Police Reports and photographs for rounding out the picture of what happened that week. And one of those is the documentary of ville even sense our guest is mark stein hes joining us from grant religion new york he is also the author of rethinking the gay and lesbian movement. In city and sisterly of brotherly love stonewall the rights 50 years ago a turning point for the Lgbtq Community tom is on the phone from flint michigan, good morning. Good morning to both you gentlemen into all the viewers this will be pretty brief, just a little context im a navy veteran, again a v veteran and grew up in a very much catholic household and this issue is portrayed many different raised by many different folks and corners of society. But what it really is, its about love. Its not about sex so much. Its about love. Good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love because you are really fighting quite a force right there. Coming from a religious background the last thing i mention is lgbtq issues are often by the religious right mentioned in the same breath as a abortion and a culture of death. Things of this nature. There is so much in the bible that is taken way out of context. Adhered to selectively. So its about love, period. Have a wonderful weekend. Time if you could stand the line just for a moment have you personally felt discrimination as an openly gay american . Well im glad you asked that and because i value other viewers time also, as well as you two gentlemen, i served 20 years in the navy, retired. I guess about 50 of, it sorry, my voice is kind of cokie this. Morning about 50 of it was under socalled dont dont ask, dont tell. The other 50 , my first ten years in the military was under the republican preferred do ask, why will ask and do tell. That was particularly repressive and draconian. That could land you out on the street out of a job in the military extremely easily. I think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for dont ask dont tell. But in fact it was a huge step forward from what was in place before that. Steve, the last half of my sentence here will be repression growing up in a particularly religious household, you better believe. It and thanks for asking. Tom, thank. You mark stein what are you hearing in . History i think its interesting to see the movement as focused on issues of love. The priest Stonewall Movement we typically call the whole File Movement. File was chosen as the key term precisely because it referenced love rather than sex. I would say that the Gay Liberation movement was developed after Stonewall Inn its something that began even in the months before the riots. I would say placed equal and emphasis on love, intimacy and sex. Sex was very central to the early Gay Liberation assists they wanted the legalization of sex, same sex sex, they wanted their sexual expression, their sexual identities to be recognized, affirmed and validated. So for at least a few years, sexual issues were quite central, to the movement immediately after the stonewall riots. Post stonewall riots in 1969, heres a look at some of the highlights for the, gate lesbian and transgender communities in 1973, the American Psychiatric association declaring homosexuality no longer a mental illness. In 1982 the first two years of the reagan administration, the cdc using the term aides for the first time. In 1996 president clinton signing the defense of marriage act. In president elect 2011 president obama revoking dont ask dont tell. In 2015 the Supreme Court in a fight for ruling legalizing same sex marriage. The pentagon when your leader ends the ban on transgender people serving openly in the. Military but in 2019 President Trump rescinding that ban involving transgender service. Lets get the tanya was on the phone from new york city. Good morning. Good morning. Im tanya walker, im an activist in New York New York and on transgender and kind of high up in the Lgbtq Community here and i just came out to the military in new york in 1986 and i met martial p johnson down by the village in the piers and i know that the Gay Community didnt like the drag queens because they were trying to be with the straight Community Back then. Marcia p johnson was a marginalized black trans woman and a sex worker who was at the stonewall riots that night, who was actually fighting with the cops and i noticed that most of the photos and videos that we see am i talking . Yes you are on the air. Tanya okay. Did you have a question or comment . Yes, i wonder why he doesnt mention the black drag queens who were in front of the bar fighting that night like marshy johnson Sylvia Rivero was also part of the gay rights movement. Thank you for the call, mark stone. The collars absolutely right as far as we can determine some of the leading roles in the riots were played by African Americans, puerto ricans, trans people, street queens, drag queens. Its still quite uncertain as to whether they represented a majority of the people who participated in the riots, but there are many accounts that place them at the key moments leading the rights, displaying real carriage, i cant be courage, we might. Say some individuals who are often credited with instigating the rights leading the rights, sylvia rivera, marsha pete johnson, stony delivery, there are still conflicting accounts of when they were there, whether they were, there marsha page on son in many accounts explained that she didnt, she wasnt there when the rights started but she got there sometime later. So if we take her at her word yes she played an Important Role that night and certainly other people of color did trans people did it but she may not have been there right when the right started. Lets go to david new york city, good morning. Hi good morning, thanks to cspan. I was 20 years old and come down grew up on the island i was a College Student state and i would hitch down and go to the bars, julius was the other bar, all mafia run, and strange to me being a sort of macho kind of College Student wearing square, weightlifter, young, wearing lowcost shirts but boy, the stone wall was an amazing place, and i would go in early in the evening, before we went down to christopher, his way down towards the river, towards the new park dannys, which i hadnt heard mentioned. So i went in at about 10 00 in the evening, to stonewall, maybe after julius, go into them in. It seemed all right, it seemed normal, early in the evening. Then i walked down to danny,s when i came back, maybe two hours later, it was, and i havent heard this in the movie or the commentary on cspan, last night a wonderful program, people that were there, a choice reporter. But i would say the queens, they were the bravest, they were lighting, i saw this they were lighting garbage pails on fire from the outside. And throwing them in through the big window at the police were inside at that point, who else i dont know. And so i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were parked right there in front of it, this is the first night. I think i was there for the second night, i was back on the island it was hard to get in. And thats what i will never forget. The police were sort of trapped inside. At the point that i got back there and they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window, thats all i want to say, thats really true. And it got a little bit after that, a bit but it took years, really. I would guess to get to where we are now, years and years decades and decades. Im 70 now. Dave, thanks for sharing weighing in and sharing your recollections for 50 years ago this week. Mark stein. Your reaction. My book reprints 30 media reports and other accounts of the stonewall riots from 1969. Its quite interesting to see that the first accounts provided by the New York Times daily News New York post referred to the rioters as homosexuals or young homosexuals. But within a week the voice, the lgbt press were referring to the leading role played by what at the time were referred to as trans vests or drag queens or street queens. And its actually the most extensive coverage of that was in the local gay news letter of the majesty in society, a local Gay Rights Organization. Interesting lead the trans periodicals of the day, two of which were the ericsson Educational Foundation newsletter and trans vests, didnt cover the rights, but the gay oriented gay newsletter emphasized the prominent role played by street queens and by drag queens in the riots. So things are quite complicated, we also have the issue of translation, 50 years later, so today we tend to really police the boundaries between gay and trans. But in 1969, many people like marcia Marsha P Johnson Silvia Rivera were comfortable referring to themselves as both gay and trans vests, they didnt see those things is necessarily an opposition are mutually exclusive. There are viewers or listeners tuning in we are looking back 50 years ago at the stonewall riots, the turning point for the gay and Lesbian Community and our guest from Greenwich Village new york is mark stein. He is the author of a new book that looks back on what happened 50 years ago, and we have been talking about new York City Police Officers Police commissioner james oneil on twitter, with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. S we i think it would be at tl irresponsible of me as we go through world pride month not to speak of the events at thend pret Stonewall Inn in june of 1969. Im certainly not going tove stand up here and h pretend to e an expert on what happened at stonewall, i do know what happened should not have happened. The actions taken by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. The actions and the laws were discriminatory and oppressive and for that i apologize. applause . To the Lgbtq Community that should have never happened in and ypg 2019. Mark, stein reaction to that apology from the new York City Police commissioner. In general terms, i think the apology is a good first step, but it is just that, a first step. Id like to see similar apologies by the Police Commissioners of the many cities where lgbt people were killed in 1969 by the police, that would include los angeles, berkeley, california, oakland, california, those would be steps alongside the actions of the new York City Police commissioner. But in addition where are we seeing leadership from city mayors, state governors, and then all the way to the federal government . We still have only a few states where lgbt history, education is mandatory in the public schools. We still have policies, local state and federal level, especially with respect to trans people that could be addressed, where is the funding for the lgbt history, education, lgbt History Museums, there is an effort underway right now in new york city, there is a longstanding lgbt History Museum in San Francisco, we could see more of those projects funded by city, state, and local governments. More research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment including abuse and harassment by official government authorities. Those wouldbe steps that would build on whats really just a symbolic apology at this point. From total one new jersey richard, good morning to you. Good morning i wanted to discuss the beginning of my coming out and going into new york. I used to go to the gay pride parade but only went at night because i didnt want to go near tv cameras and my very best friend who was a schoolteacher said that he couldnt go to the gay pride parades until the evening time, because he was afraid that he would definitely be lose his job as a schoolteacher, he was a spanish and italian teacher in new jersey. And absolutely loved his job as a Foreign Language teacher. And i do remember enjoying halloween on christopher street. And then i think a big change was during the gate mens Health Crisis, i was with a friend, tony, in a store front when they first started the game ends Health Crisis and they were setting up the telephone lines and things like that. And these men that were much older than me, i probably was 21, 22, tony said, because everybody was putting their name down on the piece of paper, and tony leaned over to them and said you know hes extremely young. Hes putrefied that his name will be on anything. So in that store front with a gay mens Health Crisis, i didnt put my name on that piece of paper because the first thing i thought was the nazi grain and the gay concentration camps in that i would possibly be killed for being gay. Richard thanks for the, call christopher streak is of course directly behind you mark stein in that has become an iconic place for gays and lesbians of course located also where the Stonewall Inn is situated. As you hear his story, what is your reaction . I think one of the things this interesting for us to look back at the early pride marches and protests and parades. The first of which took place in the summer of 1970, to commemorate the First Anniversary of the stonewall riots. There had actually been earlier annual commemorations in philadelphia, in front of Independence Hall on july 4th. Those began in 1965 and were held for five consecutive years. But the decision was made by Movement Activists in the fall of 1969 to switch the annual hall recognition of the lgbtq struggle from philadelphia and Independence Hall to stonewall new york city. And that became what we now know today as the gay prideworl. Parades. And eventually that of courseth spread around the United States and around the world. 1 early pride marches, in pride parades in 1970, 71, 72, 73, it was quite brave to participate and it was uncertain whether there would be violence from harassers, whor might come and confront the participants. It angel was unclear whether the police would grant permits, and in fact in los angeles, in 1970, it was shortly before what was called christopher street west that the parade organizers received official police permits that conducted the march and they only did so on oe their under judges orders so those first recognitions andrt f commemorations of the stone wall rebellion recall recovery require a lot of courage on the part of the organizers and the participants. And participants believe thats really when the stonewall riots acquired the significance that they havean ttoday. There had been other lgbt protests and demonstrations before stonewall. But stonewall became essential to the way that we narrate lgbt history, really because of the annual commemorations every summer that have now gone on for 49 years. I want to put one point in perspective, Walter Jenkins who at the time was one of the closest aides to president Lyndon Johnson worked with him for 25 years when he was in the senate, Vice President and then president , he was married, the father of six children and this is a photograph of Walter Jenkins who is forced out of the white house after he had a sexual liaison with another man at the ymca here in washington d. C. He was charged with a crime on morals charges, and i mention that in 1964, to where we are today with Pete Buttigieg the mayor of south indiana openly, gay and among the top tier candidates running for the democratic nomination. So as you look at that arc of history what does that tell . You openly lgbt candidates began running for office in the United States before stonewall. Werent generally successful but there began to be successes in the early 1970s, the first actually were an arbor michigan, City Council Members came out as gay and lesbian and then ran and won election. Then there was a state senator elected in massachusetts, elaine noble and harvey milk winning elections in the late seventies for the board of supervisors in San Francisco. Six us isnt running for congress, shortly thereafter a few governors by now, they had still there has still been a kind of limit to that kind of success in electoral and appointed office. We have yet to have an openly lgbt cabinet member, we have yet to have an openly lgbt Vice President or president. Is the country do you think the country would elect an openly gay man as president . g its an interesting question. I think buttigieg is showing the country that it is imaginable, it is possible. I would also remind everyone that we have yet to have a woman president , of the United States. So there are many groups in American Society that ive yet to be represented at the highest level, levels of government. And i think it certainly is possible and maybe even likely that in our lifetimes, there will be an openly lgbt member of the Supreme Court, Vice President or president. According to the advocates there are ten openly gay or lesbian members of the house or the senate, we will show you that list. As we hear from dan in ontario, california. Good morning. Hello, its ontario canada. I was wondering here in canada its become a non issue and i notice in the United States there is a lot of tension attention paid to even the terminology that is used like lgbtq. Its just unfamiliar here, im wondering if i could just get your opinion on the difference between how its dealt with and then the language that is used and how that has evolved as well. Thank you, dan. Can. I actually lived in canada in toronto for 16 years so i know something about what youre talking about with respect to canada. Thinking back about to the stonewall moments, it was actually exactly at that moment that a number of countries began to partially decriminalized consensual same sex sex acts. That was the case right before the stonewall riots for canada, west germany, england and wales. But it was partial decriminalization, and i know there is a controversy that has been going on in canada very recently about the formal federal governments apology for the criminalization of lgbt people and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960s and early 1970s. But i understand that there has been action even this month on removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. So its important to remember, its not just saw to me that was criminalized since exits, lgbt people were harassed and abused under crimes like disorderly conduct, lewd conduct, obscenity law, in canada body house legislation a variety of other criminal statutes. Youre doing a great job i know the trucks behind you can drawn out the noise but we appreciate we should point out here at the park that is the National Park service that is Stonewall Inn and is of course open to the public, our guest is mark stein earned his doctorate from the university of pennsylvania thomas on the phone from washington new jersey, good morning. Good morning everyone at cspan and good morning to professor stein. I just want to comment, i am an avid supporter of cspan, have been watching this for years. I would just like to say, a quick story. I knew about the stonewall and how Remarkable Movement it started, the catalyst for the Lgbtq Movement. And i was walking alone by myself one day in manhattan and i had my mine in 1 million to four things i just happened to come across by pure accident i came across the stonewall Memorial Park and its very a very good feeling, knowing that i was standing inadvertently in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social Justice Movement. And i was really taken aback, taken back, so in brief or want to thank cspan everyone and cspan it professor stone for shutting such a positive and transformative light on the subject and how remarkable this movement has been and thank you all again for your time, i appreciate it. Tom, thank you for the call. Mark stein, let me take his point and move it one step further as an educator. How do you teach stonewall . How should teachers educate this generation in terms of exactly what happened and its significance 50 years . Later i think many of us have been trying to improve lgbt History Education in colleges, universities and high schools. For some years, its really important i think for it to be integrated into our general narratives of American History, is one thing for there to be courses on lgbt history in college and universities, its another thing entirely when lgbt history and the history of the stonewall riots gets incorporated into the general American History courses. So a number of us are working very hard on that right now. I think many of us try to teach the stonewall followed 20 years of political organizing by lgbt people, so there was a preStonewall Movement, many of us try to teach the much broader history of sexual and gender difference and variety in American History. So stretching back centuries. And then of course its important to follow the story after the stonewall riots, how did the Gay Liberation movement develop in the 1970s . The Lesbian Feminist movement . The transgender liberation . Movement how good people of color organize autonomous lgbt movements . Growing particularly strong in the late 1970s. How did all of that change in the 19 eighties . With the aids crisis. And then what were the changes in more recent decades with legalization but also the complications of what it means to be recognized by local state and federal governments and the possibilities that liberation lid might be limited, might be compromised, might be unfinished, in a variety of ways. So i think thats what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt history. And of course you have spent probably more time than most historians looking back at the event of stonewall, what has surprised you the most . I think this 50 year commemoration, i think many of us anticipated that there would be an explosion of public interest, but i think even as i was working on my new book, i think maybe i underestimated the extent of the public interest, so thats gratifying, it is an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically, but also teach about broader lgbt history and broader history of social Justice Movement and to connect the past to the president. So that is i think in an important aspect, i think its also frustrating, we still do see many of the myths that circulate about stonewall, claims that the stonewall riots started the lgbt movement when we know there was a preexisting movement. We see a lot of photographs being circulated on the internet that purport to be from the stonewall riots. That are not from the stonewall riots, we actually have quite limited photographic evidence from what was going on and really only one image, published in the New York Daily News, the captures the confrontation between the police and the riders. So the internet creates the problem, it of course creates many opportunities but it also creates the problems of once and problematic representation is presented on the internet and then it can go viral and spread and then we end up with lots of misinformation and misinterpretation. Our next caller is from ithaca, new york. Pastor welcome back to the conversation, good morning. Good morning. Good morning, are you with us . Yes. Yes i am. Can you hear . Me yes we can now. Go ahead with your question or comment. Thank you first of all for everyone behind the scenes who put us all on every day and its pastor Michael Vincent glorious see our epa and my ministry is escuminac all ecological egalitarian, one world lifes systems. Stonewall not just to be a historical site it needs to be an insight into our history, and mistrust on i think we would concur that not only the commemoration of these events and i didnt come out until i left this the seminarian 83. And then i went into peace corps and i won the most comprehensive case in peace corps when i was wrongly fired one of the things they fired me for was being gay in senegal. And then also i wrote i have my masters of Divinity Ministry my math last paper a Catholic University was seen gendered marriages and what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of voracity with the capacity to uphold the self evident truths. And so what we would like i would think we need with all the talk and everything is good about the reparations about voting rights, about equal access, Trinity Church standing up for south african transgender woman to use the womans bathroom. That we need human rights course. Faster gonna stop you there and give our guest a chance to respond. Thank you for sharing your. Story one of the things the color and beside was religion, and a fuss the role played by religion in the potentially liberating will play by religion. The before the stonewall riots, religious leaders were important allies of the lgbt movement along with that i would say the American Civil Liberties union which was perhaps the most important ally for the personnel movement. And San Francisco there was a very influential council on religion in the homosexual which featured a number of ministers who allied with the lgbt activists of that day. And really made important groundbreaking efforts in california and those efforts continued after stonewall, so i think theres often a tendency now to think of the religious community as hostile to, or at odds with, lgbt aspirations, but in fact religious communities are divided, and we now have for several decades religious denominations who were in the forefront of fighting for lgbt inclusion and rights, and others who are in the forefront of opposing lgbt liberation. And even within some of those nominations that have been hostile, there is divisions within, and so efforts within even the Catholic Church or, the Mormon Church to promote lgbt acceptance and lgbt rights. So religious communities in the United States and elsewhere have been an important site of struggle along with the other sites of struggle that we think about, our schools, the media, popular culture, law, politics. 50 years after the riots which moved into early july, what does the rainbow flag which is behind you represent to you, as a historian . The rainbow flag emerged as one of several symbols and icons of the lgbt movement, and the many colors was meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement, and community, so to emphasize that its not an all white community, its not an allmiddle class community, its not all men, but rather encompasses people from all backgrounds, also showed groups, in American Society, in the global community. And there have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag, to even further emphasize the diversity of lgbtq communities, movements, activism. Tony, in denver, good morning. Welcome to the program. Thank you, mister stein, brilliant presentation on stonewall. I only had a cursory understanding before the show today and i find this highly informative. I have two questions for you, one, how large is the Lgbtq Community, how large is the demographic . Im sure the statistics are probably hard to get out because of closeted people but i would like to know that. And second, as a historian, are you concerned, im concerned as a white male, about injustice for anybody whos not white over the last couple years. And im wondering if that is a history if you have a view on, are we going backwards as a society not just for lgbtq but in general in terms of social Justice Movements . Answers to those two questions, would be helpful thank you. Tony, thanks for the call. Mr. Stone. In the first question, quantification is very very difficult we have lots of survey stretching back all the way from the kids east studies to the 19 forties 19 fifties. If the question of is asked narrowly we tend to get reports of one, into three to five to 10 of the population. But if the question is asked broadly, we start to have much much larger numbers, so when we think of queer, that term has been invoked and used to represent much broader array of people and if it represents everybody who has ever had a moment of same sex desire, everybody who has ever transgressed gender in any aspect of the life, we start to get much much larger percentages, we might even say that 100 percent of the population is potentially queer although not of course not everybody lives that life and claims that identity. So it really depends on how we asked the question, how we define each of those letters of the alphabet. With respect to the current moment in whether we are making progress, taking a step back, i think in many respects, these things tend to happen in cycles, there were important reforms during the obama administration, and as we have seen in many areas of social justice, intrenchment and reaction during the trump administration. There are of course have been limits to that, because we have three branches of the federal government we have state and local governments, some of which are continuing to make important strides. So its complicated. And sometimes we have two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes we have one step forward two steps back. Again it really depends on the question we are asking, so in certain aspects of law, there has been progress, but in other aspects there has been a retrenchment, and if we go back to your first question the notion that we each have to claim strict identities, and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender and sexual fluidity, maybe we are not at such a great moment right now, because i have seen more and more insistence that people claim strict identities, and dont embrace possible transformation, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality across our own life courses in across history. This headline from the New York Daily News and it reads as follows, homoki nest rated, queen bees are stinging mad. Mark stein what do you think of the headline . laughs it was characteristic of some of the Mainstream Press coverage of the stonewall riots. Because my book offers basically 30 accounts of the stonewall riots from that summer, we get to see we get to compare how mainstream newspapers and magazines public of the riders to alternative papers like the Village Voice, and new york, the east village, other rat and screw, and west coast periodicals like the berkeley bar in berkeley tribe, and then we get to the lgbt press coverage, so you would not have seen a headline like that in lgbt newspapers and magazines and newsletters of the day. But this was a way for mainstream newspapers to get readers to get interest, and it can be thin complicated to use those as sources but they are important sources and they help us understand how it is that people learned about our stonewall. The National Magazines of the daytime and news week, didnt cover stonewall until the fall, until october, and so it took several months before at least the magazines of the United States to see stonewall as something significant and worthy of coverage. You spoke earlier about the importance of the bars and taverns for the game has been community. Nancy is a professor at Santa Clara University in from the cspan Video Library looking backck for the Lgbtq Community. Gays and lesbians who came of age in the forties fifties and sixties speak over and over and over again of how theyr risked their reputations, theirg marriages, their families,ay their livelihoods by going to gayheir bars. Because the gay bars savedy one. Their lives. They kept them from despairing that they were the only ones. Keptt them from believing that societyuld be was right, that ty were sick and criminal and would be better off dead. Nd o in the bars nightclubs they found hookups and one night stints. Theyer alsos found partners and lovers and friends and people who accepted them as they were. Ththey didnt have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. They could be themselves and being true to yourself is very precious and its worth a lot of risk. Inferior. During this period suffered double discrimination, even most game men saw women as inferior. In the days before whitewere nor feminism, the lesbian bar was the truly rare place where women were not pressured tod, we cater to men. Aoff lesbian in the 1940s said,e could throw off our girdles,rm f our dresses, our high heels, which that was the uniform virtually required of all. Women lesbians could wear pants, and be free from straight mens unwanted sexual attention. That from their nancy unger assent to Clare University professor in the cspan Video Library. I want to move beyond the rights in june in early july of 1969, and ask you mark stein what happened next, after the stonewall demonstrations. Initially the existing Gay Rights Organization in new york city the majesty society try to harness the energies, unleashed by the riots, and there were followup protests and demonstrations in grants village, and actually in queens new york, where public park had been the site of harassment by vigilantes of lgbt people. But very quickly became clear that the older home will File Movement organizations were not going to be vehicles for the future, and so there emerged new organizations, the first major one in new york city was called the Gay Liberation front. There was also the queens liberation front, a little while later. Radical lesbians formed. Representing Lesbian Feminist politics. Groups like third world gay revolution formed representing people of color. And the Gay Activists Alliance in new york which was a little less radical than the initial Gay Liberation front. Gabe ration front and the other innovations that i mentioned were very committed to alliances with the black panthers, with the anti war movement, with womens liberation, they participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups. And they really were calling for radical restructuring of American Society, the sexual restructuring of social restructuring and a political restructuring. The Gay Activists Alliance in contrast decided to focus more exclusively on gear rights. And that really then set the trend for what followed for the next several years very influential very powerful very active organization around the country. Let me ask you about two more equal moments in needy windsor in her role in challenging dome of the defensive marriage act. Why was her participation why was her case of significant . Over time the issues and priority of the lgbt movement changed and so the more mainstream aspect of the lgbt Movement Began prioritizing inclusion in the military inclusion in marriage inclusion in family life inclusion in religion. And that was contested within the lgbt move we have and we will thought the radical revolutionaries of a Gay Liberation movements were anti. War they didnt want inclusion in the military. They were opposed to monogamy and conventional family life. And so, there is that tension. Nevertheless for many people, the goal of the Lgbtq Movement was brought acceptance, equality in all aspects of american life. And struggle for same sex marriage, was an aspect of that part of the Lgbtq Movement. Her role was central then in the stabbing or achieving, this major longstanding goal of the Lgbtq Movement. Was that those people who want to marry, they have the legal right to do so. And in 2016, during one of the gay pride marches, rangers those from the National Parks service, join in the gay pride movement. What does that tell you were police and authorities were in 1969 and where they are today. Again i think today, there are conflicting feelings about the participation of the police, the military and elected officials, representatives of local state and federal government. On the one hand, it represents acceptance and inclusion. And it is a far cry from the situation 50 years ago. On the other hand, have those levels of government, local state and federal fully acknowledged the longstanding acts of harassment, of youths and violence committed in the name of governments. Are they fully addressing todays cutting edge issues. And there is that double edged aspect of participation of local state and federal officials including representatives of the National Park service. Are they doing everything that they could be, to make up for past wrongs and to address ongoing struggles. And a half a minute, the cover of your book, represents what in your mind . What did you select it . Well its a photograph, from the week of the stonewall riots, and it is actually a staged photograph. I mentioned earlier, we really only have one image of the confrontation between protesters and the police. And we dont even have the original. So most versions that people will see, are you know its a grainy image of a newspaper photograph. But the photographs were staged, and mostly taken on the evening of june 28th, the second night of rioting. These were a group of, participants who they the photographer gathered, and staged on a staircase on this very street. And they represent i think the diversity of the participation. We see people who look to us, to be African American, puerto rican we see trans people, and we see the useful energy of the participants. And we see camping, same sex sex bum intimacy but, in some respects it captures what was going on during the week of then writing. Cisco author historian in hiy professor a San Francisco stateh university,ri marks nine who is joining us from christopher street in red knit shrill new york
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