, u. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum hosted a Panel Discussion looking at the continuing quest to bring former nazis to justice. They explored questions raised by recent trials, such as if perpetrators are ever too old or frail to prosecute, and whether it ever too late for accountability. Speakers at this event included a holocaust survivor, a Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist, and a documentary filmmaker. Good evening, everyone. Jessica abraham. Welcome allased to of you in the audience, as those as well as those of you watching online. I want to recognize the embassy of canada, cosponsor of tonights program. You will hear from a representative of the embassy a little later in the evening. I also had the pleasure of serving as cochair of the lenders community. The institution and the museum is one that not only honors the dictums of the holocaust, but ofnds as a stark reminder the importance and relevance of the lessons of the holocaust. Impelling has found ways to engage many audiences, audiences one would never expect, people from every background. While the engagement is grounded servescaust history, it as a powerful springboard to focus on genocide issues. The museum is also a stark neverer that pursuing again is unending. At a time when hatred and antisemitism is clearly on the rise around the world, we must all be willing to stand up, at a time when social media and a rapidly changing world magnify that hate. The museums motto what you do matters reflects that idea and asks each of us to be part of that solution, to make this world a better place. Our amazing and outstanding panel, comprised of an Investigative Reporter, a nazimaker, and a former hunter, will explain what it means to achieve justice 75 nazi after the defeat of germany. The conversation will last 15 minutes. To the extent you have a question, please write it on a card. Copies of the recent and highly acclaimed book the hunt for killers soldiers in america. I have read debbie is book. It is my honor to introduce our speaker irene weiss. Soviet troops approached auschwitz. While the atrocities there had worldwide,nted people struggled to leave them. The world eventually recognize the magnitude and horror of the holocaust. Life todevoted her telling her stories through to as many people as possible. Without further ado, it is my pleasure and honor to introduce irene weiss. [applause] thank you very much for inviting me here tonight. In 2015 and 2016, i was off to testify in the trials of oscar my family and i were part of the hunt gary and transport to auschwitz that during the time they worked there. In addition to being a coplaintiff, i needed to have close family members who were murdered there. I was not required to recognize them, who served as guards while i was a prisoner in auschwitz. I, along with other s was called to testify about what we saw in the role they played as guards in facilitating the efficient process of genocide. The spring of 1944, my family fromeported to auschwitz hungary. I was 13 years old. Upon arrival, my mother and four siblings were taken to the gas chamber and killed along with hundreds of others. My father was forced to work as a commando, removing boxes from the gas chamber. I learned later he was shot and killed. Sister, serena, and i were selected for slave labor. We work in the storage warehouse located near crematorium four and five. Our job was to sort thousands of , preparing the belongings to be shipped back to germany. We worked there for eight months. Day and night columns of young took theirh children last steps as they passed through our barracks that led to gas chamber. My brain could not absorb what i was seeing. In january 1945, as the russian army approached, auschwitz was and we forced thousands of others on a death march deeper into germany, officially ending in a camp. Evidence of the trial untilished that from 1941 worked as ang socalled bookkeeper of auschwitz. Andas taking the money valuables to get from prisoners. Selection. Ked on the prisoners asitored they were selected for work or sent to the gas chambers. He also helped control people during the separation of families. That groningord denied any responsibility. He said he was morally guilty, but not legally. He said he worked out of a sense of duty and was just following orders. He believed the jews were enemies of the german people. Reverting to nazi jargon from when he worked at auschwitz, never saying gassing or murder. And ssribed witnessing guard bashing a babys head against the side of a truck and actually described it as inappropriate. Observed, the baby could have been killed in a less messy way. For instance, by shooting. This was his way of showing that he had empathy. He showed the mass killing of thousands of babies and others was not a cause for any reflection or regret on his part. Groning, who gazed around hanning never looked up at all. Some interpreted this as contempt. He was overwhelmed. None of us knew what to think. Campob had been to are the. Experts testified that his ss group was on duty when the trains arrived. Without the guards, the mass murder would not have been possible. He had a leadership role and performed his work so well, he was promoted twice during his time there. Guard as af the 13yearold was terrifying, with their tall, shiny boots and elegant uniforms. Us. Have contempt for they have complete power over life and death. They looked at us with contempt. You did not look them in the eye. , i. E. Instead encountered a couple frail old men in wheelchairs accompanied by a nurse. But these old men had been wearing but if these old men had been wearing their nazi uniforms, i wouldve trembled and all the horror i experienced as a child in auschwitz would have returned. Anyone who wore that uniform in that place represented terror and the death the depths to which humanity can sink. So, why had i agreed to testify . I was hoping to hear regrets aat they are dissipated in monumental tragedy. They were also participated in a monumental tragedy. I also hoped they were suffering from their memories of that time. I wanted to hear from them and the others who testified about what the consequences were of what they did. Looking back, did they feel misled by the evil laws and the ideology of the time . Did they regret the part they played in that evil . Did they have lessons to impart to resistld of today the effects of mass indoctrination. I was looking to confront and a person who participated in the destruction of my family. During both trials, photographs of my mother and siblings, taken by nazi guards on the day of our arrival were displayed on overhead screens, becoming part of the Permanent Court record and clearly visible to the defendants. We never received any answers to the question. Did not seemanning to grasp the perspective of a lifetime, the full moral implication of what they had done as young men. This recurring human failure to take responsibility for evil acts or even to properly distinguish between good and evil one under the influence of nationalism and propaganda makes on themore important alert against these forces. A whole generation of , the children and grandchildren of perpetrators of the nazi genocide heard very little from their parents and grandparents about what they had done in auschwitz and other factories of death. Last, toe, at long stop suppressing this history. One positive aspect of testifying was the close relationship my family and i developed with the german prosecuting attorneys. Their compassion and sense of mission helped to see me through the ordeal of the trial. The outpouring of support from the german public was also gratifying when the survivors arrived each day to the court. The local citizens were lined up around the block, waiting to get in. The trials were widely covered by the german media and i can only help they contributed to the education of the german public about this dark. In history. Od to that end, i joined other survivors, government officials last week for the 75th commemoration of the liberation of auschwitz. Our presence in that place, the symbol of ultimate evil further added to the worlds understanding of what happened there. One observation. The german courts were careful to ensure that these two old men process related to their health and age. And millions of others, jewish civilians, were enslaved and killed without any due process at all. Thank you so much for listening. [applause] good evening. Am i on . Good evening. Irened like to thank mrs. Weiss for your moving and courageous and inspirational work. Justice is much more than an abstract concept. We cannot lose sight as we are discussing it of the human toll and theimes represent thesexperienced by survivors and their families do not have a statute of limitations. Begin to my left with debbie. Debbie is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter who contributes to the Washington Post, and the author of an new book citizen 865 the hunt for hitlers of soldiers in america. I took it on a work trip. I read it all on one plate appeared its that good. Debbie is the newly named director of investigative reporting at northwest university, so welcome, debbie. We are also delighted to be joined by ricky gerwigs. Ricky is an experienced Television Producer and i would like to congratulate you on your first feature documentary. We are pleased to recognize ricky as coproducer in the audience. Ricky is a producer at the monk debates, the Worlds Largest public debate forum. Last, but not least, dr. Barry white, Senior Historian at the Holocaust Museum. Historianhe chief down the street at the u. S. Department of justice. So, we have a lot to learn tonight. Before i turned to the panel though, i do want to note that in a tremendous stroke of serendipity we could not have time to the scheduling of the panel much better. Some of you may have seen in the Washington Post last week a great story by debbie or others, truly unique and groundbreaking collection of perpetrator materials. Some 361 photographs and documents collected by the commandant of killing center. At this are looking morning, on the screen, is just from this morning. This morning we have them delivered to the collection facility. Oursee the gloved hands of supporters. This is the kind of material that was evidenced in the trials we aresecution describing today. Truly a momentous day for this museum and this field. Debbie, lets begin with you. To write your book, outage you first get interested in the topic echo what brought you to the store and the topic . What brought you to this story . Think you debbie for the question. I was at a Cocktail Party in maryland in the last two moments of 2016. I fell into a conversation with a Justice Department lawyer who, over the course of about two hours, started telling me about this unit inside of the Justice Department that had spent 30 or warears hunting for nazi criminals and i remember thinking two things. One was how is it possible that 70plus years after the end of the war we were finding nazi war criminals and collaborators in the United States. As a journalist, i was intrigued by the people doing the work particularly the historians as an Investigative Reporter i dig through documents for a living and i really wanted to know people who had spent the all of their professional careers searching for these people. How had they spent day after day and year after year of living through some of the darkest moments in history and going home to their husbands and children. To balancepossible those things. And in your book you follow those threads. One about the processes. And how you came up with casesgies to look at about which we may not have had jurisdiction. Ricky, how did the film the accountant of auschwitz come about, and how was this a story you set about to tell at the outset . I was working as a Television News producer in canada. In april, 2015, we get tickers every day that tell us what the main headlines are that said, auschwitz guard goes on trial in germany. Is guilty. He what is the point of a trial. The more i read about his case, but also his story and legal precedent that allowed him to be prosecuted i thought, wow. Theres a lot more here than , closed case. Es andes a lot to unpack moral and legal ambiguity and i think that a documentary might be a great place to explore that gray area. For those who have not seen the trial to get this at the failure of the german prosecutors after the war in going after the perpetrators and how this new generation has byed to rectify that interpreting the law in a different way, but also the people who are therefore being prosecuted are the below her level guards, the people who were not necessarily pouring the cycle on the into the gas station, but the people like whor groning or hanning made sure the camp was running efficiently. Who are also complicit. So, thats how i came to that. The story. And im sorry whether it was the story could tell, how it unfolded. Ricki there werei do feel quity that the story we told is the one we wanted to from the beginning. I am quite pleased in that. Instead of talking about the film, lets have a look at a clip from it, one that gets to some of these existential questions about, is it ever too late to pursue justice . How low is someone in the hierarchy, and what is that guilt . Lets have a look. It is too little, too late. This needed to be done a long time ago. But how ridiculous is it that they are doing it now, when these people are all in their 90s . [inaudible] so how do we get to the point that there is such a trial as the Oscar Groening case . I would like to turn to you, barry. You are a historian, not a prosecutor. I know this is not the career path that you initially had in mind. What initially brought you to this work and since osi, the office of special investigations, the former name of this doj office, it was only established in 1979 how did you and your colleagues grapple with some of these questions, about, is it too little too late, how old is someone . Not set out thinking that i was going to investigate nazi crimes. Europeane i studied history and languages, and one of the things that really got me to focus more on german history was the experience of growing up in the segregated south. My parents worked for desegregation and civil rights, so from an early age i recognized the cruelty and evil of racism, and i wrestled with the question of why so many people i knew who were themselves kind and consider themselves good christians and patriotic americans would go along and even support a system that seems obviously contrary to their values. German history, in the early as 20 century early 20th century, provides the ultimate example as to why these civilized, and supposedly educated people to send into genocide, which we would like to think is the most uncivilized of behaviors. I went to graduate school and specialized in german history, wrote on a military topic not great choices in terms of finding a lucrative career, but as it turns out, unless i considered my knowledge of the german army and ability to read old german handwriting to be assets. When i was given the opportunity to help the chiefs in measure it the victims of racism, i felt so lucky and honored to have work to do that i was fully committed to it. How long did you end up doing this unexpected, unplanned thing . Hired, we were told the office will last three to five years of most. I worked there for 29 years. The age ofn about perpetrators we got that a lot. A lot of people challenged us about the pledge back push back we got. People would say, why are you going after these poor old men for something that they did decades ago . Responduld generally yeah, i agree with you. It would have been much better if they had been brought to account act in the day. If they had not been able to lie about their activities and get visas, they might have gone to actual refugees or victims. But when do you suggest that we set a time limit, after which you say to a perpetrator, congratulations. You avoided justice long enough, now you can just let out your life and peace amongst us in peace amongst us. This is a question that doesnt come up around other types of perpetrators. Debbie writes in her book about my colleague, mike bernstein, who was murdered when terrorists 30w up pan am flight 103, years ago. Of 20 years from now, we find someone here who had some role in the plots, nobody is going to say, poor thing, we should not prosecute that person, that the person is the advanced age somehow outweighs the right of the victims and their families to justice. Did , that this country, which for centuries has provided a refuge to the persecuted, will not willingly be a safe haven for those who persecute them. And to clarify for the audience and people who may not be as familiar with the basis on which osi was suing these perpetrators, you are not actually charging them with crimes related to the holocaust. What was their violation . You mentioned visas. Nazi crimes do not fall under the jurisdiction of u. S. Courts, so the governments only remedy is to try to take away their citizenship and remove them from this country. You cant take away peoples citizenship against their will. You have to show that they acquired it illegally. Cases, most of the defendants came in under immigration programs that specifically barred anyone who had participated in persecuting nazi victims. So what osi sought to prove was these people had participated in persecution and then gotten their visas by concealing that activity. So in fact it is there violation of their application. Thats right. We prosecute it under civil Immigration Law because the statute of limitations on criminal violations had run by osi was only created in 1979. Is a humorous personal side note, i will say that within the last 10 years i have helped sponsor my husband for a green card, the one i was born in the midxts. It asked ifcation, he had ever been a member of the nazi party between 1933 and 1945. It is still on the application. I do get shows how seriously we take this. Debbie, you write about a specific set of osi cases, ones wholving the socalled men were trained by the ss. Can you explain why you zeroed in on these particular cases, what is their significance . It was part of the history of the holocaust that we did not know much about here in the west until historians like barry and others at osi really put the pieces together, at least understood the details. Oizcneki was tr basically a school for mass murder, and then the ss recruited a number of civilians, Eastern European civilians and Red Army Soldiers who had been captured and placed in pow camps, they brought them to this area, where they were trained, they were armed, and ultimately deployed across occupied poland to do some of the dirtiest and most brutal , thein operation reinhard planted murder jews the plan to murder jews in occupied poland. We now know that more of a dozen of them slipped into the united and wereter the war living very normal lives with american wives and American Children and pensions and Social Security card. One worked at the crackerjack company in chicago, jacob reimer, the subject of my book citizen 865, was a potato chip Franchise Owner in manhattan. One worked at the ford motor company. And i will add that the collection i referenced at the beginning, the perpetrator collection, the reason it is significant, we need photographs of up to 400 men who served as auxiliary guards and we see them relaxed, proud, socializing with their ss supervisors, so it gives us quite vivid evidence that these are not men who are being forced to do this murderous work against their will. Right. They liquidated the jewish ghettos brutally. They participated in mass murder, shooting operations in the woods, and they guarded the perimeters of the death camps, and in some case operated the as longtime historian here, peter black, who worked at osi and spent years looking for these men, he calls them the foot soldiers of the third reich. I think that is exactly what they were. Ki, we saw a photo of the most familiar man, john. Your story is about the trial of a german perpetrator, but you also show more about various trials of this man. Can you tell us about what that helped you to tell in terms of the story . Hes a very interesting subject matter there he is. As you mentioned, he was one of these men. He was not german. War and prisoner of they gave him two options. One, go fight on the Eastern Front or two, go and work in a concentration camp. Want to fightot on the Eastern Front, so he chose the concentration camp. He ended up, john ended up at sobibor, and im interested to see those photos to see if we see him in any of these photos. Importantade him so to the german prosecution, that made him able to be prosecuted was the german prosecutors for a long time couldnt prosecute anyone who was an accessory to murder. Basically mandated that you needed to prove that the person, a specific person had committed a specific crime against someone else, but also they were motivated by racial hatred. That is very difficult to prove in a court of law. Prosecuted it as murder. Think of how you prosecute murder in an every day trial. You need witnesses, right . Times, all these things to convince the judge and the jury of the crime. Prosecuting someone who committed this terrible thing in a concentration camp against victims who didnt even know what year it was, let alone what day and what time it was, it is very hard to create the kind of case against them that was needed in order to convict them. Not beingn to their an appetite in germany after the war to convict anyone german law and the German Justice system made it very difficult to prosecute any perpetrators. If they cannot even go after the big man, the man who actually do the killing, then people like were justscar who guards are never being prosecuted. They are so far off the map, why would they be . What happened, johns case really changed how the german court interpreted these cases. What happened was, and this is in large part due to Eli Rosenbaum and very and the deer barry and the doj they went and said, we found this guy. We know he was an accessory to murder. We know he helped the camp function. Thataid this one thing sticks with me he said, if you are in my office and you are holding the door closed while someone else is running, chasing me and trying to kill me, you are an accessory to murder. All these guards that are making sure that victims who were coming off the train in auschwitz or other camps, they were maintaining order and maintaining a shroud of secrecy so that no one knew was going to happen to them, they are accessory to murder. Decided toecutors specifics, this specific argument to the court. And brought john to trial he was convicted. Changedty conviction the course of the german legal system with regards to the prosecution of nazi war criminals. That is the really long version. I want to take a moment to remind those of you in the audience to please, if you have questions, write it on index cards. Staff will be collecting it so we can answer at the end. Lets have a look at another clip from the accountant of auschwitz. A professor ofs law at amherst college, Lawrence Douglas, talking about some of these questions. [video clip] important about the trial in germany was, in a way, it was the exact opposite of the ivan the terrible trial. The ivan the terrible trial focused on the particular pathologies of a very brutal guard. The trial in munich was really the first trial to really come along and say, we do not care if you are cruel or not. Your Job Description was basically facilitating an active extermination, and that is why we are going to hold you guilty in the court of law. You are accessory to murder because by definition, that was your Job Description. Just to be sure that we are trial, thefirst socalled ivan the terrible trial, was a trial held in john, where he was mistakenly identified as a perpetrator that had served at tripling the, and was tried and convicted in a munich court in 2011. One of the osi reacher jurors says, maybe he is not ivan the terrible, but maybe he is john or ivan the knot as terrible. The slightly less terrible of the sobibor death camp. Trained and then deployed to other camps. You elaborate more on some of these legal precedents, and what guided your work at osi . I would just say that what Lawrence Douglas was talking about there, it goes to what rikki was explaining about german law. For so many decades, german prosecutors assumed that they could only prosecute someone if they could show that person had directly murdered someone and not just that, that they had ored out of a base motive acted in an excessively cruel manner. Ivan the terrible would fit that. Gassings, hethe was exceedingly sadistic. Sobibor would not fit that, because there was not evidence that he had specifically killed anyone. In osis cases, what we had to show technically, we could for just gone after people lying about serving in a german unit during world war ii. On, it was determined that we would only go after people who, where we felt that we had clear and convincing evidence, that they had participated in nazi victims. In some cases we were able to show murder, but in most of our cases, osi argued and Courts Service in a unit that existed primarily for the purpose of verse accusing people purpose of persecuting people, like a police unit that carried out mass shooting or a deaths head guard unit at a concentration camp, that service becauseted persecution, it helps the unit achieve its purpose. So within the case of john, our argument was that through his service, not only at sobibor but at others, he had participated in the murder and persecution of the victims at those places. Credit to the two people whostigative came to osi and looked at our evidence and talked to us and realized that there was a recent precedent in a 9 11 case in germany that would let them bring the case. 9 11,ple hear you say what does that have to do with rikki told me about it. It is quite interesting, when you think about the prosecution of former nazi guards, you do not think how 9 11 might have influenced it. But this is actually something that Thomas Walter told me Thomas Walter is the prosecutor in germany who represented the and some of the others i think there were 50 plaintiffs at the groaning trial. He sought them out and represented them of the trial. He met with Eli Rosenbaum at the department of justice did he meet with you as well . Yes. Heroes inre real germany. The first time i met with him, he explained the 9 11 connection. In germany, there was this man. D he didnt fly the planes into however, trade center, he was taking care of the Bank Accounts of those, his friends from germany who were part of al qaeda who did go and fly the planes into the world trade center. That thereng sure was no, that the government did not have any kind of suspicion over their bank account or wire transfers. He also paid their rent in their apartment so no one would ask any questions. He ended up being prosecuted as complicit to 9 11 and was found ledty, and this case prosecutors in germany to think, ok if we can broaden this out , if that is what accessory to murder is, why cant we use the same rationale to go after the german concentration camps . The german death camps . This also shows the way that history and the way that we deal with it is constantly evolving as we discover new evidence and also as we discover new approaches. Debbie, i would like you to read an excerpt from your book, from citizen 865 if you could, to help us here understand the difference between german and nongerman perpetrators, knowing that both were necessary in order to carry out a crime of the magnitude of the holocaust. This is an excerpt about the men serving in the death camps of occupied poland. It starts it was the assembly had killing that he imagined. Only a few dozen ss personnel managed each killing center. These men did the rest. Unloading the train cars long into the night and shooting, beating, and screaming at thousands of people stumbled towards their deaths. Some guards use valuable diluted from prisoners to buy shops, chicken, sausage, and Sexual Services from polish women. Butrs deserted the unit, the truck making commander had. Uild a mostly reliable force it was the manpower the u. S. The ss needed. I will cause a beat after that. Could yourry, describe for those not familiar with this chapter of history what the dynamics were between some of these trawniki men and the german officers with whom they served, other nongerman collaborators, a little bit about hierarchy and retribution and protocol . You know, as i thought when i was researching this book, that i would feel that they were kind of forced into duty. The i learned during reporting of this book, in my research, is that trawniki men like jacob reimer, citizen 865, he received paid vacations. He received four service medals. He was allowed to go home unescorted to see his family, came back on his own and theinued to loyally serve third reich. He stayed on until the very end. In fact, in 1944, he was granted citizenship in nazi germany. I think he probably not he would go to germany thought he would go to germany as a decorated war hero. These issues up i was forced to do it, if i didnt do it i would have been the next one shot, those fell apart when i started researching and learning more about this unit. They received german field pay, they obviously were armed and received basic leave. They had Family Support payments, they could go to the movies, go to the brothels, so they were definitely and what i love about the new sobibor photos that show the trawniki not beleaguered soviet pows. Half of them were civilian recruits, not pows. The relationship with the german ,ersonnel there varied especially with what they were violent, you could imagine that these men got pretty vicious and difficult to control, many of them. Looked upon as trustworthy and were promoted and given command over others, so it varied. Maybe as many as 20 actually deserted. If they were recaptured and had not deserted with their guns, they were sent back to trawniki me and put back into service. Something i always got from the historians, there was no way the ss could have killed so many people so quickly without the help of their collaborators, the trawniki men. 1. 7 million jews were killed in operation reinhard in fewer than 20 months, which is the span of two polish summers. I always think about that number, because it couldnt have happened without the men of trawiniki. And that a place like so we or, you had so many trawniki men that did the work of murder. Some of the most chilling photos we have are not from sobibor, but show these auxiliary guards on a field trip. Behavior, agood good performance junkets they take with some of their ss supervisors. There is a whole album of photographs showing them not just alone, but with wives and girlfriends on a field trip to picnicking by the side of the road, they have this nice time back in civilization and return to their jobs. Now murder on an industrial scale. On anrying out murder industrial scale. The cognitive dissonance is chilling. Lets take a look at this clip, which talks about that i was just following orders excuse or defense. [video clip] as far as following orders, what one often hears is i had to take part in these crimes, because had i not done so, the germans would have executed me or sent me to a death camp. One of the most remarkable statistics to emerge out of the holocaust is the number of ss officers or even senior german serious,who suffered lifethreatening consequences as a result of opting out. That number is exactly zero. Not one instance has ever been found in which it was that anyone who deserted was subject to severe punishment, much less execution. What is your reaction to this clip . It is certainly true. That is not to say that people did not face consequences for opting out. It was obviously not a good career move and was likely to get you assigned to a unit on the Eastern Front. But it shows that people have choices. The germanally in military, because its soldiers did not have to follow a legal orders. In times like that, it is very difficult to make the right choice, especially if you think that by making the wrong choice and going along, you are not going to suffer personally any negative consequences. That is why it is so important to build up a consistent practice throughout the world of prosecuting those perpetrators of mass atrocities, so that we can create that expectation, that if they make the wrong choice they will face consequences and then maybe that will motivate them to say hey, you know what . We could get in trouble for this. Im not buying in. You described that, barry, it reminds me very much of the work of christopher browning, a historian whose works the deep into war trials of perpetrators who served in mobile killing squads. He demonstrates with evidence that when there are commanders who are lessons is he asked it or clearly on endorsing of mass shooting of civilians, many, many more men step out and say, i will not do this or cannot keep doing this after the first day. These are case studies we use at the Holocaust Museum when we are working with members of active military right now or with the military academies to show that following orders is not an excuse. It is about setting a culture. Turn tobout to questions from the audience, but i want to ask you to read another excerpt from citizen 865, if you would please. Is one of my favorite quotes from barry white in the book. To be successful at presenting future genocides, barry white wrote in 2016, we must do the hard work of examining the factors and dynamics that can motivate potentially any ordinary human in potentially any country to collaborate in mass murder. So at the risk of feeling awkward and maybe a little meta about hearing a quote from yourself, you have worked in genocide prevention, including here. What do you think the threat is that leads from some of these prosecutions into the field of justice today . Why does it matter beyond the important cases themselves . Justice has a very Important Role to play in genocide prevention, not just in terms of deterrence. Some people think that genocide is this horrible thing that suddenly happens and then it is over. It is an extreme flareup and an ongoing cycle of violence. One of the biggest risk factors for genocide is the previous experience of mass atrocities, especially when there has been impunity. Break that cycle of violence, you need justice. You need to build institutions that people will trust to resolve their differences without resorting to violence. It is important also to recognize the trials themselves are not enough, because the the guilt ores to innocence of particular individuals for their individual actions. They do not get out the larger debt that a society owes after mass atrocities, things like determining what really happened and making it known and acknowledging it. Helping the victims get the reparations that they need to. , and we have been pursuing the International Justice initiative, made possible by the last surviving Nuremberg Prosecutor who continues at needs 99 age 99 to be a real force in the field of International Justice. The Initiative Works with survivors and victims in the wake of mass atrocities to help them get the tools and the training and the connections to figure out what kinds of Transitional Justice mechanisms are best for their situation. And will best promote reconciliation in society. , what do youdebbie see as these bigger takeaways from your projects in terms of how Society Might be different today . What do you see in these trials and in these crimes . I get the question a lot, of what is the point . A lot of people ask about the who wasscar groening, 94, and , who was 95 what is the point . Are we really going to deter future were criminals from engaging in genocide . This, my own opinions of but im not going to give you that. I am going to point to what the survivors said in our film. Survivors, they themselves think that, they dont care if they spend a day in prison, or at least the survivors in our film. They did not care if these perpetrators spent a day in prison. What was important to them was that there was a guilty verdict. In a court of law, especially a german court of law, these men were found guilty. In the history books, they will forever be guilty. To them, that was more important than any punishment. Stimonyrators te is very rare, especially in the case of the holocaust. Usually hear from survivors. You rarely hear from perpetrators. Having been documented to live on for generations was, for them, the most important take away of these cases. This citizen 865, this book describes the trial of jacob reimer, citizen 865, and the months before that trial in new york was set to begin, there is a scene in the book that i find fascinating where the judge who would oversee the trial called in the head of osi at the time, neil sure, and said something like, are you sure you want to prosecute this little old man kind of a thing . I always found it fascinating in , becauseng this book osi had an expectation of accountability that it didnt matter how many years had passed , that delayed justice was better than no justice at all, and so even though there were some dark moments in this book, i write in the prologue that it is also about light, in large part because i was moved and inspired as a human being by the people who dedicated their lives to this type of work. Thing, youne more say that thing about the little old man i have heard that a lot. It is interesting. Engele wasm still alive and they found him now, with a be saying, what are you doing . He is so old. No. We see these men today, they are old men, but we do not see them as she saw them, when they were strapping young men who had the power of life and death. I would like to turn to some of our audience questions. Thank you for submitting them, and i might have to merge some of they are similar topics. We have a couple of questions that are about whether there is a double standard or any hypocrisy in u. S. Government policy, that there were other nazis or not the collaborators who entered the u. S. After the to, some with regard operation paperclip or scientist sues knowledge was needed for and the u. S. Rts, government was bringing people into the u. S. Was it difficult to missionhe osi knowing that some people still went on to live comfortable lives in the u. S. . We did not go after people because they were nazis. We went after people who were involved in persecution. Was was true in maybe it definitely true of a few of the people who came in under paperclip, one of whom we pursued who was still alive when you osi was created. , who was kind of the father of the saturn rocket, and when he was confronted by osi he decided to leave the country and renounced his citizenship. He went back to germany. , we didursue investigate a number, but rudolph was the only one where evidence ofinite actual persecution. These were scientists, and they worked as scientists in rocketry and so forth. So they helped the german war machine, but they were not they were not and arthur, who may have had some connection to some medical experiments, highpressure experiments, but was dead by the time we came along. For the most part, these people were scientists and were working in labs. Another question do we know where the rest of these trawniki men went after the war, and if anyone ever retracted their citizenship or pursued them . Many of them were soviet recruited out of soviet pow camps, and many of homeafter the war returned. They were prosecuted by the soviets in the years after the war. What i found fascinating about it is that historians in the west did not really know too much about this, because we were in the cold war. The records were kept in the archives of communist countries, it really was not in until the cold war ended and the communist collapse that people like barry white, peter black and others were able to mine the archives and find lost not the nazi rosters and records. This is another interesting angle there, which is john, another tourney key man an, was trawniki me prosecuted as ivan the terrible and found guilty of true glinka. He was awaiting his death sentence. The only second death sentence that israel was ever going to and as he was awaiting his death sentence, the soviet union collapsed and the archives became available. Archives wasthe proof that ivan the terrible was a completely other ivan. It was not john. That is why he was let go and returned to the u. S. And obviously was not sentenced to death in israel. Interestingly, i have heard and sobiborus to see photos, because ivan the terrible, the real ivan the littlee, there is very photo evidence of him. I have heard that in the sobibor photos, there is a picture of him. Im adjusted to see. There are photos of a number of trawniki men, but i would not want to identify any of them. The other thing that i have been saying to journalists asking about this in the last week, it matters and it doesnt matter. It matters in terms of specific tilt or innocence of a person, but we know that every one of these guards wearing the auxiliary uniform is complicit, has guilt, is there in that role and most of their names are lost to history. Wethey are there, whether will ever be able to identify them or not. Need photos tot prove that ivan served at so before sobibor. Correct. Another question before we close, this one about osi. Some of the difficulties that osi faced in terms of repatriation or what happened when a case was successful . That became a big problem. Some people were able to live out their lives here in the United States, even people against him we had won all the cases. First you have to do natural eyes, which is a whole set of two d and appeal turalizeze to dena someone, which is a whole set of trials and appeals, and then you have to find a country to take them. Germany would not take them until john, and we thought that was wrong because they had been recruited and armed and trained and had carried out that persecution under the german government. If it were not for the nazi government of germany, they would not have carried out those activities. Some of the countries that they came from eventually did not want to take them back either. It was too controversial and they did not want to deal with it. This is not old news, by the way. This is recent news. In 2015, some of you might know, the state department and the Justice Department finally deported a 95yearold former an who had lived on a street in queens, new york. He was sent back to germany, but 14 yearseported beforehand and no country would take him back. It was only last year that they finally convinced germany to take him back. He was 95 years old. Sorry, i am reading questions and reading questions at the same time. An audience member is asking if any of you have ever heard a convincing legal argument against prosecuting any of these perpetrators that is not based frailty, or do you think it is a natural sympathy for those who appear old or helpless . Where does that sense of, i will just leave them alone, come from . During the cold war, we got a lot of accusations. The majority of the murders happened in eastern europe, in areas that were overtaken by the of they and seized a lot documentation and put them in archives that were inaccessible to western researchers. The soviet union in the 1980s did sometimes provide evidence to osi and also to make witnesses available for depositions in the soviet union. Since most of our subjects were ,eople from captive nations immigrant communities in the United States that were we were using foreign documents, and that was a big argument in one case, that the photo id card which put him at or was a soviet forgery. Tested, we had any kind of documentary evidence that we received from the soviet union and thoroughly tested for ink and paper and handwriting, and we got a fingerprint that matched the subject. That was the argument, that we , that these were anticommunist who were being smeared by the soviets. I think that point, barry, and rickis point about new ituments are that sometimes is not about whether justice is delayed, but it is pursued in a way that it might not be able to otherwise. Originally,of john it was wrenching for the cleveland community. Ethnic ukrainians in cleveland and jews living in cleveland are very opposed to the soviet union for different reasons, and this completely tore them apart and fragmented them. It still does. The case was in many ways a black eye for the government, but i do not know if you know this, there is a scene in the book where when they were finally able to get into the archives and find the records that placed him in sobibor, eli to janet had to go reno at the Justice Department and basically get permission to pursue this second case against john, that they were relatively successful at. He had to go all the way to the top to get permission to do it. That he was determined to do it. Barry, there is a followup question that is a tenacious one, but it is worth answering. Someone has written an ever in reference to operation paperclip [inaudible] slave labor at his base to go if you can explain aun brown was . He was the father of our whole space program. Wereike arthur rudolph, involved. Osi came into. Reation yes. There rockets were being made at an underground concentration camp facility. Arthur rudolph was more handson in terms of the administration have notmp, but i really looked closely at the evidence, but i am sure we would have looked at him. Im am not sure what exactly we would have found, and i have not examined what exactly he did during the war in germany. If he had still been living, we would have looked into what he had done. If we had found evidence of persecution, we would have brought a case. Was about, question did osi feel free to pursue cases that may be went against other u. S. Government interest . Oh yes. In a couple of cases, we pursued people who had went and worked , and wecia in europe were able to get approval to bring those cases, or they did not stand in our way. They raised some concerns, but did not stand in our way. Howlast two questions well trained our american soldiers and the duty to disobey unlawful orders today and the geneva convention, and that my incorrect in assuming that training could be stronger or that it is stronger in europe . Not sure how well cooked with are on this panel to answer that. Itan speak a little bit to in terms of the work the museum does. With active military today and the military academy, but we also work with foreign liaisons. These are military officials from around the world that are posted to the pentagon for a period of time, and they come here on a regular basis and do trainings. The culturespare of different militaries by bringing them together in a convening space to look at historical examples. My colleagues who work on this, if you are curious about this question, come up and i will connect you after. I would like to ask one last question from the audience, which is a Bigger Picture thing. Do you on the panel have any advice for young people who might want to pursue this type of work, or who want to do something to fight for justice in this era . That is a great question. I love that question. It leaves us on a hope will note tonight hopeful note tonight. I can tell you as a professor, i am so inspired by this generation of young people, people who want to pursue journalism or law or history, it just seems like it is a different kind of generation. We have watched what they do with gun control, for example, and i really i wrote this book for my boys. They have the capacity to do things differently than we did, so i am looking forward to seeing what they can do. You know, i am canadian, so i see things things are different in our countries. I wont explain how. First of all, i am also very inspired by the younger generation. Uptodatey are so with what is going on in politics and the news, and i think it is so important to sift through all of the noise. Something that one of our history professors said to me offcamera, when we were making this film that has really stuck with me rebecca whitman, i believe you know her, she was at hnm for a while. One thing when we have a problem hollywood movies, like schindlers list. You get a really, really bad guy, like the man shooting people off of his balcony, or schindler, who wants to save one more life. They are entertainment and they rally people, but a holocaust happened for people like roening, they are mundane, they are following orders, they are a cog in the wheel. The holocaust happened because of those people, not because of the 40 guests. It happened because of all of the foot soldiers. I think it is so important to see today in that light and like , how are all of us complicit . What are we doing in terms of what goes on today . It is not just the people we see as the extreme versions of what is bad or what is good, but everyone else who goes along with it. That is kind of what i hope young people will be able to take away from these. Yeah. There are lots of ways that you can make a difference in the ,orld and stand up for justice and the dignity of every human being, it is really important that we confront hatred when we defend the dignity of every human being. There are lots of different kinds of ways that people can get into the field of conflict prevention, genocide prevention, there are great programs at a number of universities. I usually tell people who are pursuing that that it is also very important to get foreign experience and to learn a foreign language, and also Technical Skills are very, very much needed, particularly in the ngo world. So people who are good techies can make a big difference too. Thank you for those thoughts. It is my pleasure now to close the program by introducing martin logan, minister of Political Affairs from the embassy of canada. While he is coming to the stage, i would like to thank our panel for sharing your invaluable insights, and thank you to our online viewing audience for joining us remotely. To the Washington Lawyers Committee and all of you here in the theater today. Mr. Logan, thank you. Thank you very much, and thank you all for coming this evening to this really important events. A big thank you to the u. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum for hosting us. Staff thankful to all the who make this a living place that helps us confront hatred and promote human dignity. Again, we are very proud to have partnered with the museum on several activities, including one just last week on memorial day, where we saw the prosecuting evils film about ben. Thank you also to the Washington Lawyers Committee for our terrific panel and our moderator, thank you for all your remarks this evening. Journalists, historians, storytellers, you shine an essential light in the darkness about past and present so that we might build a brighter future. Thank you for telling me stories. Us of human hatred and indifference. They remind us of the horrors of the holocaust and all the horrors since. They tell us that beyond the numbers, the 6 million jewish people murdered, the victims were teachers and doctors, engineers and architects, painters and poets. They were boys and girls, men and women, their stories make the numbers all the more staggering in the search for justice more essential. The stories place you in their moments. Take this 1 you are on a ramp at auschwitz. Soldiers tear your family apart. It is the last time you will see your mother, your father, and all that one of your five siblings. Thank you for sharing your story this evening. You honor the memory of your family. Thank you. Survivors, the primary witnesses of the atrocities of the nazi regime. We listen to her member this horrific chapter in human history. With our partners in the National Holocaust for members alliance, wed remain dedicated to strengthening holocaust ance, research, and dedication. The stories still call out to us. Are you listening . Will you remember . It will never be too late to remember. It will never be too late for accountability. Its never too late for humanity. Our world is still not immune to the scourge of hatred and indifference. As jewish communities continue unacceptable acts of antisemitism, we stand with them. We remember the stories of the past, for the victims, the survivors, and our future. We shall never forget. Thank you again for attending this important evening and for our panelists, thank you very much. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] this weekend on lectures in history, we visit the campus of Utah State University as history leads hermaria diaz class through the civil war conflict. Is an guerrilla war extremely violent, personal, bloody war, in a way that you dont see on the big fancy battlefield. Are communities against each other, sometimes even watch lectures in history tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3, and listen to
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