they are authorized to declare races of the committee anytime it without egyptian, never the full queen on this has forceful or authorized to see in today's hearing, without objection representative donald pain, new jersey may also participate in today's, hearing every recognized by the charity question witnesses, and to five a rule so long as all members of the committee on financial services are who are present, haven't recognized for the round of questioning. this hearing is entitled, is cash still king, knowing the rise of mobile payments, i now recognize myself for four minutes to give an opening statement. >> again, welcome everyone, good morning, and thank you for attending this hearing of the task force, thank you for joining us today, we have to discuss the future payments in america, over the fast few years we've heard attic notable, but growing evidence the retailers and consumers, moving toward a cashless society us society where consumers carry cash and retailers don't accept it, using instead plastic or mobile phones for payment. cashless future is not imminent but the right of noncash payments are real and today's hearing is to help people better understand are that for it for financial inclusions and explanations. they will speed up actions to give consumers more control over anywhere money and make offering a business cheap and and safer. they can swipe their phone at the register and that is continuously documented with the financial institution, automatically adding that to a leather that tracks expenses of a balance and the customer can safely and store physical money. catch payments make up 42% of transactions under $25 and 49% of transactions under $10. these transactions disproportionately involved disadvantaged and working class americans. cash's payments typically require that consumers have access to a bank account. despite improves over the last few years the most recent fdic survey showed 14 million adults, 6 1/2% of america's household, lack bank account access. if we don't solve the problem of banking access before transitioning to a cashless society, we will be predevelopmenting families across the country from accessing the very goods and services they need to survive. further, high-profile data breaches have been a regular fixture in the news over the past few years. that has left consumers rightly concerned about the security of their financial data. cash transaction involving no consumer data being collected while noncash payments require at least some data to be exchanged. more than a kwaufrter of all malware attacks in 2018 were directed at banks and financial organizations. as the amount of personally identifiable information stored by financial services earnings grows, we will continue to see a rising attack on these groups. while our financial institutions continue to combat these attacks, some consumers choose to manage their finances in cash. a cashless future would not give these americans that choice. we need to continue to promote invasion and payment technology, inclusion of security. i hope today's hearing will focus on the way we can develop our payment system to reflect these needs. the ubiquity of mobile payments is on the rise in europe, asia. our competitors there will also continue to develop their own technology. we must learn from their experience and focus on meeting the needs of ar of our consumers here at home. i look forward to today's discussion and hearing from our witnesses. with that i now recognize my friend and new ranking member, mr. emmer, for an opening statement of feevive minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman, and thank you for convening this meeting on mobile payments. i want to acknowledge many of the concerns some witnesses will offer in this their testimony and that is some of what you just shared. there's serious public policy challenges to address, and i look forward to working with them with you and everybody on this committee. however, i may differ in tone today because i like to look at the many positive changes and innovations we have in moeblbile payments. we have tremendous innovation occurring in mobile payment space. the term mobile payments is so broad, it fails to capture all of the growing must be of payments and growing efforts of payment. we cannot ignore or suppress innovation. that will not make it go away. innovation can actually be a key driver of lower costs to individuals and creating new ways to enhance consumer protection. we have so many ways to pay today using our digital devices. this past holiday season, americans spent more than $50 billion just using their phones. apple pay, venmo, square cash and even bitcoin are household names. some of the most successful applications include uber or lyft or i can open my favorite merchant app, select prices and see what coupons and rewards are available and in one click pay for my items. this hearing is titled is cash still king? we have differing opinions among our witnesses and among task force members, is this really the right question to ask? regardless of the dominant form of payments, shouldn't we be asking how can we make access to commerce easier and more fair? how do we ensure financial inclusion in an evolving world? how can new forms of payment facilitate access to services and uplift struggling americans. cash is undoubtedly still with us and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. but this is the financial technology task force. i hope we spend some time trying to learn about and better understand the his efforts i representative hill wrote a letter to the federal reserve supporting further research in the concept of a digital dollar. this concept could speed up transactions and provide convenience for consumers but it could also extend access to those previously excluded and help bring more people into our increasingly digital world. in advance i thank the witnesses for their time and insights on these topics and i look forward to the discussion today. and i yield back. >> the gentleman yields. the chair now recognizes mr. scott from georgia for one minute. >> thank you very much. chairman lynch, i look forward to today's hearing on financial exclusion, how we can work with that, on how payments innovation can improve access and convenience for under-banked customers. also, security in our financial system, and how an increase in online transactions impact transparency and fraud. and also, mr. chairman, our task force has been critically engaged in the ways of cutting-edge technology, in the ways cutting-edge technology can benefit consumers and small businesses. i look forward to our distinguished panelists and thank you, mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields. so today we welcome the testimony of a distinguished and accomplished panel of witnesses. in dianna del rio, coexecutive director of the new economy project and organization built to support community controls, development and produce safe and healthy communities. mr. akckman, head of public policy at paypal, member of the former peer-to-peer payments company venmo. and i use continually to send money to my daughter in college at elon university in north carolina. she appreciates your service. mr. aaron kline, fellow in economic studies and policy director for the center on regulation at the brookings institution. mr. klein served as deputy secretary for technology at the treasury department and chief of commerce at the senate banking committee. christina deatro >> detro. >> thank you. a nonprofit consistenting of policy and legal experts that advocate for consumer possiblesies and financial services. and the executive director of the u.s. master payments council and industry trade organization dedicated to organizing the u.s. payment system. i thank you all for being here and for helping the committee with its work. witnesses are reminded your oral testimony will be limited to five minutes, so without objection, your written statements will be made part of the record. miss del rio, you are now recognized for five minutes to give an oral presentation of your testimony. >> thank you, chairman lynch and ranking members. thank you for the opportunity to testify at today's hearing. i'm hear at the forum in new york city that worked with low income new yorkers and community-based organizations to challenge the systemic discrimination in our financial system and advance fair lending, financial inclusion and bring investment as a matter of racial justice and to ensure tools are available for eckquitable neighborhood developments. i'm pleased to share some of the perspectivesed being discussed today focused on bank red lining and including impediments to backing access for too many americans and people, as well as growth of cashless businesses and disparities as financial service acts as they play out in low-income neighbors and communities of color. i attach to my testimony several maps that just are about the landscape of the new york city and show the vast disparities of where bank branches even locate based on the racial composition of neighborhoods. and you will see on the map, they show there are fewer than one bank branch per 10,000 residents in communities that are predominantly black or latino. and that compares to 3 1/2 branches in predominantly white neighborhoods. it's one indicator that shows the difference in financial landscape that people encounter in their daily lives, not only new york city but throughout the country, where those patterns play out consistently. i want to emphasize a few things in my verbal testimony. one is the issues addressed in today's hearing we believe or systemic in nature and deeply entrenched. they call for bold stiltic solutions including strong regulation. two functions about financial as secretary disparities including the use of cash versus credit or debit focus on choices or behaviors of individuals or on the need to design so-called alternative products, rather on addressing the continual structural barriers that block millions of people including poor people, immigrants, many others from access strongly regulated institutions, products and systems. as this committee knows there are multiple em pedestrianment asks some include the high costs of maintaining bank accounts. as i mentioned red lining and prohibitive requirements, which create barriers to entry for millions of people. through our legal assistance hot line, can which assist thousands of people every year, we have seen a very clear and growing pattern of mainstream banks actually pushing low income people out of the banking system and out of regulated services in myriad ways. one example is the way that banks typically will close people's accounts if they experience fraud or if they have incurred joefr draft fees and unable to pay those fees back not only do they close in those instance, but they it report information to check systems and other consumer reporting da databases shared by the banks and effectively blacklists people from opening accounts elsewhere. it needs to look the at the continued predatory practices in our system. i wanted to point out out a few things. while we believe eliminating bare yers at the same time, we have to recognize that financial products and technology are not a solution to the the problems. they aren't soling poverty. we see too often that there are industry and policymakers tout different products and services as being the solution to dopely enb trenched problems that require bolder solutions. we also believe that we must challenge the rhetoric and the sort of alleged benefits around financial innovation and which in the experience of low income people and communities that we work with just simply fail to match reality too often. for decades companies have invoked innovation as a smoke screen to evade strong regulation and to peddle high costs or predatory products from sub prime lending to payday loans to fee-riddled debit cards and payroll cards often marketed to low wage workers or that employers force workers to receive their payments on. essentially, trefr inging the cost of managing payroll from the employer to the low wage worker. i just want to emphasize it's very broad and is used in many ways. it can refer to companies and technologies. we recognize that safe technology can benefit people but too often we see these companies claiming to be eliminating banking deserts and sorting and empowering communities. one example is how companies in new york are seeking to circumvent strong consumer protection laws including laws that have kept out payday and other exploitive lending from our state. the administration's efforts currently to exempt companies from critical consumer protection roles only exacerbate these serious risks. thank you for your time. i look forward to addressing the other topics during the q&a. >> thank you. >> chairman waters, since 1998 pay pal has been at the front of payments. it opens a technology digital payments plas form. through a combination of innovation and strategic partnerships. we offer people and businesses choice and flexibility. more ask more people are using smart phones to make purchases and manage their accounts. our technology is giving more people and businesses access to the global market. and the the ability to use financial services tailored to their specific needs. the mobile phone transformed every aspect of our lives. we use to community indication with friends and family, watch our favorite shows, order a cab, change the temperature at home and engage in payments. the growth of smart phones has been uncredible in 2011 only 35% of americans had access to a smart phone. percentage grew to 81% by 201. at pay pal we have witnessed transforming payments. in q4 44% of the $199 billion in total payment volume we processed was made on a mobile device. the advancement of mobile payments has important implications for individuals and communities. for example, giving people access to money instantly via mobile device can help in reduce ing fees and late payments. sending remittences is about half the cost of a traditional remittance and can save over an hour of time for receiver and sender. it can provide a baseline for credit underwriting, which can enable con sierm ffsinance. mobile payments can benefit small businesss due to the lower costs of acceptance as well as payments data being leveraged to help fill the gap in small business working capital, in particular for women and minority owned businesses. >> it reducesed number of entities with sensitive data. it subjects with a serious of nonsensitive numbers that confirm a business a payment is authentic, but minimizing the likelihood of data breaches and reduces fraud. there are costs associated with cash. cash is deeply imply kalted in tax evasion. when mexican drug lord was arrested, there was more than $200 million in cash found on the premise and the global drug trade is estimated at $600 billion. finally, 20% of unbanked consumers report having cash lost or stolen. in a study of low income households, the finding was that the average unbanked consumer lost nearly two weeks of household expenses when cash was lost or stolen. mobile payments presents a tremendous auntopportunity to reduce many of these costs associated with cash. now while we don't predict the death of cash in the next tat or two and believe that consumers should have choice in what payment options they choose, we are working diligently to make sure the value proposition of digital payments vastly exceeds the value proposition of cash. for every member of society. thank you again for the opportunity to address the task force on this important and timely topic. i look forward to answering any questions. >> thank you. mr. cline, you're now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. members of the task force for the opportunity to testify in the the critically important future of cash and the rise of digital wallets. let me start by answering the question the hearing poses. yes, cash is still king. in fact, cash is used by a diverse set of people who defy political or geographic boundaries. false narratives abound that cash is dying or cash lessless the societies around the future are the my lent yells don't use cash. millennials have cash in common. both generations use it more than those between ages 30 and 60. in a sample of mostly small business transactions, iowa and wisconsin, two of the the more cash intensive states, have more in common with the the bronx and staten island. nationally, racial minorities and rural americans both use cash more frequently and has been stated cash is the most common way people pay for things under $25. while cash is still king, there's no denying that large number of goods and services are moving on to digital payment platforms that do not accept cash. as the economy digitizes, those without access to low cost payments are increasingly unable to participate in and share in the benefits. prior concerns about a digital divide were certain issed around the question of access. smart phones have bridged this divide. online access alone is insufficient. without a means to purchase the goods or services being offered, the benefits fail to convey. access to digital payments has become the new digital divide. online and app-based goods and services lower costs from ordering groceries to hailing a cab. the economics of many digital services simply assume users will have fund to cover recurring expenses. expect the ability to tap into a consumer's bank account to get paid. during overdraft fees, growing income volatility our nations slow payment system, the reality for people living paycheck to paycheck is a more expensive system than for those on the other side of the the divide. for consumers to benefit from the digital economy, cheap and reliable payments are necessary. our existing system provides them freely to those with money and charges a lot to those without. it may require strong rules to fix this problem. a corollary to the policy that businesses continue to accept cash is that consumers have access to digital payments and that needs to be facilitated. my written testimony goes to significant detail regarding the high and often hidden costs of existing banking products like overdraft fees that create a different cost structure for those living paycheck to paycheck. it highlights multiple policies and reduce the demand for expensive ways to access cash. it's to require immediate funds availability for consumers. which most of the rest of the world developed decades ago. waiting for the federal reserve to follow through on the announcement to build the system some time this decade is not enough. policymakers could solve this problem today if they wanted to by regulation or legislation. tomorrow is the 31st. a lot of people will get paid that day and will struggle to come up with the amount of money available in their bank account to meet payments on the first of the month. america once led the world in payment tech anesthesiology. 50 years ago america pioneered the new deck textnology that would come to dominate the world. but technology alone was not enough. it required consumer protection legislation from congress such as the electronic funds transfer a act to create an environment where cards flourished. today china has leapfrogged cards. china's new system is built on digital wallets and runs through their own big tech firms. it creates an alternate payment system between merchants, consumers and providers. precisely because it is more efficient. it does not take large sums of money all the the register to compete with the credit cards that come to line the wealthy with thousands of tax-free dollars and rewards. the the rise should devote more time and attention to create a more fair, efficient and inclusive payment system. i thank the chair and the task force and look forward to your questions. sdwl thank you. sdwl. >> thank you. you're now recognized for five minutes. >> chairwoman waters, ranking member, chairman lynch, and members of the financial technology task force. thank you for the opportunity to be here today. i am christina for consumer reports. it's an expert independent nonprofit information whose mission is to work for a fair, safe and just marketplace for all. my cr colleague testified before this committee in 2012 regarding the future of money and the the rise of mobile payments. she noted that consumer privacy concerns inhibited and tradition menation creates unb certainty for consumers. eight years later i will make these sam points today. american adoption of mobile payments continue to lag that of other countries. americans still love cash and compared to mobile they love cards. beneath mobile payments is mostly technology built in the early 1970s. new payments rails including faster payments and crypto currency are in the case of faster payments or should be in the case of crypto currency covered by existing laws. unfortunately, it's an irrational mess. under current law, credit card holders have the strongest protections. debit card bank transfer and prepaid. it can do this by establishing a strong of uniform protections for all non-cash, non-check payments. consumers do not understand their rights and obligations. if we ask a focus group what they thought would happen if something went wrong with the payment, they uniformly said they expected that the company whose name was on the app or wallet would pucks the problem ask make them whole. this is not necessarily the case. come instances, users may be obligated to contact their bank or card issuer for help. other problems fall outside the scope of current law. for example, when a consumer is tricked into sending money to a scammer, they will find these transactions have the same level of protection as cash. many claims have been made about how mobile will increase financial inclusion. the reality is quite different. americans without checking and savings accounts are less likely to use mobile payments and are far more cash reliant than other americans. unbanked consumers are more likely to suspend or cancel cell service because of the cost of maintaining coverage making regular use of mobile financial services nearly impossible. no app fixes the structural issues that lock out too many americans. crypto currency has been proopposed as a fix for financial inclusion. if the legal mess is bad, the legalague mess in crypto currency is worse. the consumer protections that payments have are largely found in state money transmitter laws. krip to cur sit should not be tested on consumers with the the least cushion in their financial lives. the best way to ensure access to faster payments is to support the federal reserve's proposal to build the fed faster payment system and not by empowering untested corporate schemes such as facebook's libra. there's another shadow over mobile payments. the current protections made with stored value, the money held in ven mo accounts. are threatened by the paypal lawsuit. before the rule, consumers had to rely on the protections provide edd by state money laws. billions of and millions of consumer accounts are at risk if this rule is invalidated. privacy concerns exist alongside legal concerns in mobile payments. so while mobile payments and some services are free to consumers, users are not the customers of these services. they are the product. the potential for users information to be weaponized against them is acute when payments are combined with platforms. we need strong privacy is legislation that creates protections a law that requires data min mization, clear information about practicing and security stands. this must have vigorous enforcement tools. i thank you for the opportunity to be here today and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. ms. ford, you're recognized for five minutes. >> good morning chairman, ranking member and members of the task force, thank you for the invitation to be here today. my name is kim ford and i'm executive director of the faster payments council. the fpc is a membership organization leading the industry effort to modernize the u.s. payment system. we were formed from the work of the federal reserves faster payments task force, which brought the industry together to start to figure out how to make the u.s. payment system faster, more secure and more efficient. i'm grateful for the opportunity to be with you today as we examine consumers payment preferences and look to what the future may hold for the u.s. payment system as a result. as you know, the payments landscape is in the midst of unprecedented change. when i entered the industry in 2004, checks were just starting to lose ground to debit and credit cards. now we're talking about things like mobile payments, machine learning, artificial intelligence and more. clearly, we have transitioned in this country from an environment dominated by paper, checks and cash to one dominated by electronic payments. we are seeing that cash is being used less and less for major payment categories. cash has been used for low value payments below $25, but we are seeing card use grow in this area as well. and as we think about why that is, two themes come across most clearly. consumers desire for convenience and consumers'desire for security. electronic payment cards are accepted at retailers a across the globe, enable tracking of transactions, and provide consumers with protections against loss and fraud. is and while cash may also be convenient, easy to carry and widely accepted, it can be easily lost or stolen ask there are no measure this is police for consumers to recoop such funds. for these reasons, electronic payments have climbed the ranks to become a preferred payment option for consumers. moreover, as americans incorporate smart phones, they also expect that on demand functionality to extend to how they transact with friends, family, businesses, employer asks even the government. this is translated into an b increase in the use of smart phones for things like internet banking, e-commerce, and mobile payment apps. one study rorted that over the last three years of their search, they rated the most attractive futures of mobile payments as, one, the ability to immediately stop a fraudulent transaction, two, the ability to instantly view their transactions and the ability to use their phone to turn payment card on or off to prevent unauthorized usage. these findings underscore so many americans increasing reliance on electronic payments to sofl for convenience. but the popularity is not enough to increase financial inclusion. and certainly, it's appropriate to ensure that people can actually benefit from digital financial services. and this required a payment system, reliable and accessible infrastructure and a robust regulatory framework with safeguards. and while we haven't completely solved the access issue in the u.s. financial inclusion is getting better. due to new types of financial services that are accessed through mobile phones and the internet. but challenges our system to be better isn't limited to plastic cards. at the fpc, we believe the next evolution is a more realtime and efficient system that anyone can access at any time, anyhow, anywhere. we believe that faster payments have the benefit to build on payment mechanisms and further improve money management, remove costly paper processes, and encourage global competitiveness. our members believe it so much they created an organization to bring all the payment industry stake holder segments together to identify barriers to faster adoption and work shoulder to shoulder to solve those problems. for example, we are examining the regulatory landscape for faster payments, studying best practices and trends, promoting transparency for business end users, assessing directory models and helping members understand how to develop a faster payment strategy. yes, we support electronic payments. be also where payment choice is preserved. whether that be paying with cash, check, sending a wire or using a prepaid card. i'm also proud of the fact we're demonstrating that it is possible to get a widely diverse group of industry stake holders together representing consumer groups, merchants, tech providers and more to tackle complex problems and a fair, inclusive and transparent manner with an end goal where we all agree driving universal access to a faster payment system that delivers a high quality and secure user experience for all. thank you for the opportunity to present to you, and i look forward to answering your questions. >> thank you. i now yield myself five minutes for questions. mr. cline, you illustrate a good point where if you look at young people and their consumer preferences. our two girls i don't think have ever been in a bank, except for travelers checks or something like that. probably less than five himtimes. so this is a trnd that is really overtaking us and so it's being driven by consumer preference. it's not some, i don't think it's necessarily diabolical plan. it's just easier. and people want to do it. not everybody has that opportunity. you have had an interesting background in terms of look inging at internet payment systems and things like that. are there models out there that would sort of address what we're trying to get at? we know it's much cheaper and in many ways more efficient and safer. are there systems out there that do a better job than we have right now in terms of the payment systems that are out there? >> yeah, chairman, it pains me to say this, but china's system is is much more efficient, much faster and has reached a level of universal adoption that is somewhat mind boggling. you have two services that started less than five years ago and they have a billion monthly users. and they were able to do in part one of the fascinating things about the chinese experience is this is a country that had 7 million debit cards, but only 20 million to 40 million card readers. you could not take a card. they look at you like you're from a century ago. it's all on codes and digital wallets. now the problems with the chinese system, i'm not ed a advocating we move there, particularly because of some of the commercial concerns involved in bringing the banking system, the payment system outside of banking, and our framework completely assumes that payments are part of the issue. everything is tied to this. when you legally look at between banking and commerce in the united states, there's nothing that ties payments on to the banking side. >> thank you. i want to ask you, we raised the china model. so right now, if banking goes the way of the internet where they just collect all our information, not what they need to, but everything they can get their hands on and then they screen scraping and selling personal data and financial data. you have written on privacy. do we need a new architecture with respect to financial data than we have given it away in terms of our personal data on the information side on the internet side. do we need a new architecture to be more protective of our financial data or can we overlay this on the existing system? >> i think there are two solutions to the problem. the first is provider prakcticepractices. so enabling tools to really see what information is being collected and then make choices. and there are efforts out there, financial data exchange. they were here before the committee previously. and they are creating those tools. those are helpful and more supportive of that effort. the other aspect is strong federal privacy floor. so that actually includes curbs on data collection and sharing. and it's touted as a privacy law and privacy protective in those ways. it's time for a new approach. >> speaking for the industry in terms of what you have come up with, are there mechanisms or models that you identify that might address the concerns that we have raised here? >> certainly you want to acknowledge something raised about merchant acceptance. so in china a lot of the reason why there's been success there in moving to mobile payments is getting all of the businesses to except these small codes and agree that maybe it's that model, maybe it's something else. but i just want to stress when we're talking about consumer adoption, if the places they go don't accept mobile payments, they won't switch. we also have to include a focus on the merchant side of the equation. >> thank you. i recognize the gentleman from minnesota. >> thank you to the committee for your testimony and being here today. it's interesting. more than one of you this morning was critical in different respects to the the promise that the innovation, new technologies provide. one of you refer edred to the rhetoric that gets used about how this is going to benefit consumers and society. and i could focus on several, but in the short time, i was particularly concerned by some provisions. your written testimony that criticized crypto currency. although you only mentioned libra, which is not in itself a crypto currency, i would hope you more fully explored these innovations or if you haven't, that usyou will be. in the opportunities that they provide to both build a financial future for individuals, but also to empower individuals to control the value of their own assets separate from government control. have you done any of that? >> so we have looked at crypto currency and i made remarks almost six or seven years ago that the original promise of crypto currency was returning power to consumers. what has happened in the years is that what we have seen is an infrastructure that's built up, that's largely acting as an intermediary, that consumers are not truely empowered to be their own bank. so that these intermediaries are often underregulated, undersupervised, there aren't clear rules of the rode road. so the promise has been lost. so the need, there are a any number of needs to fold them into payments in a more rational way and to rationalize over all. >> as define edd by you or someone else what is rational, seriously, it's your definition of what's rational. because there's a whole environment out there of brilliant young people who are coming up with new ways to transfer value every sing is the day. and i worry that we're going to crush that entrepreneurial spirit and that advancement. obviously, you and i heard of bitcoin and are you familiar with xrp and ripple? >> with the distributed ledger technology for their payments, yes. >> you're familiar with eos? >> no. >> what about privacy coins like z-cash. >> i had a footnote that if i understood the aim of the hearing that i was not going to approach the privacy concerns. there are any number of privacy technologies around crypto currencies. some are concerning, some are promising and that it really is very item specific. so i don't have a lot to say on that. only that you're right, there's definitely i agree that there's definitely some interesting things going on there. >> how about zero x? >> i could keep going through these, but it concerns me when we're talking about mobile payment systems and we draw in any one of you. crypto currency or these new innovations, which suggest that it's a negative. major companies are doing that. it's a pilot program that's proven to be successful in haiti. where a digital asset is provided for cleaning up plastic waste. are you familiar with mpace? >> y yes. >> we should talk. m stands for noble. this is mobile phone based money transfer, finance asking microfinancing service launched in 2007 by vote a phone. it had 17 million accounts. this system has been credited with giving millions of people access to the formal financial system and reducing crime in otherwise largely based cash-based society. again, i think we have to take a deeper look at this and learn more about these innovations. it's not black and white. the real interesting developments come when you start to get into the details of differences of the technology. so i'd appreciate it as we talk about mobile payments and move forward if we could be more uncollusive about the technologies instead of fearing something we don't know enough about. thank you. >> thank you very much, chairman. ladies and gentlemen, first, let me say that each of your testimonies were very, very informative. and and open our eyes to much of what we were only dimly aware. this is bringing us into the frontier for or financial services industry. i have been spending quite a bit of my time dealing with an issue that i want to present to this committee. which is are we doing enough to make sure we address this fundamental problem? according to the most recent statistics, there are 58 million unbanked and underbanked folks out there. but what is most startling, most of those are unbanked. meaning they don't have a savings account, not mom or dad, nobody in the household. so let me start with you. how do we address this to make sure that we are providing the transparency, affordability, the convenience for these consumers. but access to electronic payment systems have traditionally required a savings account, which presents challenges here. how are you all nin paypal, addressing this issue to make sure we bring everybody along with us as we make this technology jump. >> thank you for the question. i think it has to be done in partnership. so paypal is a technology company. but there are all sorts of entities on the ground in the communities and places where you're talking about. think of retailers, 7-eleven, walmart, a provider where we can partner with the entities and enable cash to be offered up at the point of sale and then digitize it on the back end. so i think it's really in getting on the ground in the communities and the places where these people are and providing them a service, as i mentioned in my testimony, that's more valuable than just a cash-based service. because until and unless we create that value proposition that really can respond to the challenges and issues they are facing, there won't be a reason to move into this ecosystem is. >> are you confident that we will not leave these unbanked and underbanked folks behind? >> at paypal, we're making strong efforts to do that. i think it's going to be about everyone in this room working together and intentionality to prevent that from happening. do you think there are costs associate edd with accepting cash for small businesses? when it comes to things like accounting for that cash, doing payouts to employees or vendors, providing security for the cash, there are a number of costs associated with that. my mom was a small business owner. and i remember that the challenges of getting an account for everything. >> you have been working for much in this area. >> i think we have to recognize that obviously there are limitations that financial institutions have because there's a regulatory framework in which they have to operate. but when we look at the experience in the u.s. as well as globally, i think that's one reason we have seen the rise of non-banks saying we have this great technology out there. we want to try to be some sort of link to consumers. sofect if we can be that interis immediate area and try to get somebody who is unbanked to be more comfortable, maybe it starts with a gift card or some sort of prepaid card to load with cash to get them slowly into the financial services system and can become banked. that's obviously where we want to move things. so i think that we are making progress, but i agree. the unbanked issue is very real. it's one reason at the fpc we have a segment saying how are we going to make this as inclusive as possible. it's constrained by certain regulations as well. >> thank you very much. >> gentleman yields. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you made my day today when you said that the seniors and millennials have something in common. thank you. oneover the attributes or benefits of being a little older and been through here a little bit, is i remember when credit cards came out. yes, i'm that old. everybody said, no more checks. checks are gone. but the federal reserve report in st. louis says we have twice as much cash in the system now as ten years ago. we still have as many checks issued today as we did 40 years ago. and now we have all different sorts of payment systems out there. if i was a new business today, i would have all of these kinds of payments because it enhances the ability of myself to be a new business to attract business and everybody in and enable them to make the transaction. so when people get exercised about this is going to happen or that's going to happen, take a deep pretty and step back. this is just an alternative way of doing this. so i come from the point of view of, okay, how can we do this in a safe fashion. i think ms. ford had good closing comments. i think there was comments with libra and crypto currentties so to me, i look at the security of the data and you can improve the convenience for people. and you can minimize the use of enabling people to do fraud and launder money. this is where we need to be focusing to enhance the ability of the mobile phones and the different types of payment transactions. so i would like for ms. ford to elaborate on final comments about how ab slightly. so i think one of the elements have impolicemened faster payment systems is we have better technology. as we look for the experience and the card space as it relates to security, we have seen great innovations around encryption and tokenization where the idea is that i think the mind set used to be how do we protect our sensitive information from being subject to unauthorized usage. now i think we know how sophisticated the criminals are. so the conversation has shifted to how do we devalue the data, because it's likely going to be a breach somewhere. so thoi those are the things we'll be looking at. individuals sitting in front of a monitor trying to look at these transactions and now we can think about how can we leverage artificial vejs or machine learn inging. there's biases in those as well. but i think there are some opportunities to be able to leverage this technology to add security components. >> you talked a little bit about some of the concerns of folks who can't work with a bank buzz of the costs that are involved and you have to go through that. have you found that because the banks charge for checks or for having an account or for a minimum amount in checking s that the kind of problems you see. >> sure, those are some of the examples. just to clarify, not only are people being forced to rely on cash, but the vacuum that banks leave in these neighborhoods is where you see the pawnshops. >> why do you think the banks are having to charge those fees? >> i think the banks have made there's been a wave of deregulation of the banks. there's a weakening. the consumer financial protection bureau and other rules that govern banks, we think that banks made clear they are not interested in serving low income people. and yes, the minimum balances that banks require in order to avoid fees is one impetment. identification requirements that go far beyond what regulations require are another for millions of americans. >> have you talked to any banks to ask what it costs to maintain an account? >> i'm the board chair of a credit union. we're aware of costs of implementing banking. >> it's difficult to give a service for free unless you can find another way to subsidize that within your institution. >> one of the problems is that in terms of checking accounts, it's low income people subsidize subsidizing the free checking of more affluent people. there are costs and ways to manage the costs, but right now those costs are not being born fairly among customers. you can look at who pays overdraft fees. it's a small percentage and lower income segment. >> those are loans. i thank you very much. >> the gentleman yields. the chair recognizes the gentleman from iowa for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman. thank you to the witnesses for being here today. obviously, we're hearing a lot of discussion about the benefits that mobile payments can provide as the cohf-owner with my husband of a digital design firm who uses paypal every day nationally and internally for payments, i'm certainly familiar with the benefits. and i think there's absolutely so much opportunity to help people with better services and i need hopefully to see more of that down the road. however, i'm concerned that we're leaving some people behind. we have been talking about it today with smart phone and internet access, people can't use these wonderful is services as we well know. and the fcc estimates that approximately 20 million americans lack broadband service. i know that in the state of iowa. the number is probably far greater than just 20 million. microsoft estimated that $150 million americans aren't actually using the internet at broadband speeds, which they would need to perform these functions. a lot of these people are in my district. that kind of difficulty is why iowa is one of the top five states as mr. cline pointed out in terms of use of cash. so mr. cline, i'm worried that moving too quickly to mobile payments will risk what we are already seeing with rural communities being left hind. i'm trying to fight to keep them getting the opportunities that we need. are you seeing that moving to mobile too quickly and risking the opportunities for rural communities is something that your research shows to be a problem? >> yes, congresswoman. it's important to appreciate that as the economy digitizes there are huge benefits and those are not excessable to people without the ability to transact in them. i think a lot of the conversation about preference for cash that we have seen if you dig into the data, what you really see is a rise in online purchases, particularly for that age category between 30 and 60. now whether that's consumer preference or choice, or whether that's just a changing nature of our economy, because you can get these goods better, cheaper, fast faster, to be debated. what does that mean for people that don't have the ability either to access that material online and to have the ability to make a payment online in a convenient and low cost fashion. if you risk an overdraft to buy something that's $5 cheaper online, it may end up costing you $30 more. and part of the problem why there's so many overdrafts is i don't know when my paycheck is cleared. if i get paid tomorrow on the 3 isst of the month, 10% of americans get paid monthly. 38% get paid biweekly. a lot of people get paid tomorrow. don't mistake direct deposit for immediate deposit. you're not certain if your payment is going to be available for your funds the very next day. this makes life incredibly challenging for people in rural america and for people who are living paycheck to paycheck. the sad reality is we have the tools to fix that 10, 20 years ago. united kingdom went to realtime payments in 2008. mexico in 2004. and so i think for your constituents in rural america, you're face inging a double whammy of this access problem and you have a means of payment problem. particularly for those living paycheck to paycheck, and older people who may be relying on social security, it becomes incredibly challenging for consumers to be empowered enough to be able to solve these problems and access all of these online benefits. >> thank you for that. i appreciate that. and as the state who has the fourth oldest population in the country, i appreciate your concern for them being able to get social security that they need. moving on, you mentioned in your opening statement that paypal is committed to serving every american or something to that regard. so bringing broadband access to all iowans is a major priority for me. i'm on the whips rural broadband task force. we want to make this happen. i think it needs to be really a priority for all of the american economy. or we will lee parts of the country behind. so i want to ask you specifically, and really asking all of the mobile payment community to get behind this priority. so that everyone can actually benefit from what you have to offer as a resipcipient of your product that i know works well, we need access. iowans need to be able to utilize services like yours. are there steps you're able to take to spread the access more quickly than we're doing right now? >> well, i think we can be supportive of your efforts and i think we can also add in kind of our perspective on the benefits that access provides in terms of inkrees increased growth and increased payments. and i would also point out that you highlight access is such a key issue, but it's also cost in kind of trooifing down the cost for individuals in particular in rural areas. making sure that the data is not so, pensive that, yes, you have access but you can't use it. i think we can be supportive of your efforts and love to kind of partner and figure out how to be helpful. >> we'll be in contact because wee need your help. thank you. >> the jet lady yields 37 the chair recognizes the ranking member of this committee. the gentleman from arkansas, mr. hill s now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. great to be with you. great to have a broad payments hearing today. thank you for making those arrangements. got a great discussion. i have enjoyed hearing everybody's presentation. i was interested in your testimony the total volume is looking at your. like my friend from massachusetts, i have a regular venmo user in my family. my question is of those 40 million people, how many of those users have an account balance with vennmo meaning there's cash left in their name? >> don't have >> i don't have the exact number. >> i would be interested in that number and what the average balance is. because everybody knows those are not fdic ensure deposits. and it reminds me of the old american express travelers checks. where you have this money that paypal gets to use, but people may not know they have it. >> also i was pleased to read about your faster i.d. alliance. i assume ms. ford you're also involved. >> i'm not personally. >> i think that's important because of the tarveg force we talked about these building blocks of a digital future. authentication is fundamental to get away from name and password. and so if you could send me some followup information, who the members are and what's being done there. that would be of interest is. i want to turn to tokenization. this idea that banks and non-banks have a payment rail out there in the payment system. we have wire trafr transfers, we have swift. we have cash, obviously. we have a mast erercard direct. we have all these different medologies medologies. my question is can we have a proved regulatory payment rail that's block chain based that's available to banks and non-banks equally. where someone could propose a block chain frt. what does that look like from a regulatory point of view? so it's not a debit rail. it's not a credit rail. it's a block chain available. whether there's a crypto currency involved or not. be neutral on that. >> i'm not sure how authorized i am to speak on that issue. i'm not an expert on that type of technology. but i would say that i don't think it would be a limitation of technology being able to support that rail. it would come down to whatever policy implications there are. and i think christina has alluded to some of this as well. i think there's an inconsistency in the way that block chain or distributed ledgers regulated today. it seems to be happening at the staut level. that kind of inconsistentcy might be one of the the limitations that could exist. >> for the core banking. in terms of the system, but for smaller evaluation or smaller amount payments, you already are seeing some block chain that enable the money. so i think there are examples out there. we talk about others that kind of offer this. >> for 40 years i have been in and out of a banking business. and larger ones. and i couldn't agree more with your testimony about access to available funds and the timeliness of that. we thought we were going to get there in 2004. and this is a huge frustration to people. it leads to higher overdravt usage because of the gap. i think we have a financial literacy issue and we have worked a lot on that. i think people don't know they can schedule their payments around their payday by simply calling the 800 number and doing it. and so they are juggling when they could move everything given that. but what should the fed do about making you suggested $5,000 be available. >> us i get complaints about this. >> under the funds availability act, that's what requires the first $100 to be made immediately. the federal reserve has legal authority to change that number. and to change the amount of time up to $5,000 for customers in six months. >> thank you for that. we'll talk more about that. i yield back. >> mr. davidson for five minutes minutes. >> i thank the chairman. i thank you for your expertise in this field. we daent agree on all the issues issues, but i'm encouraged that privacy a foundational principle for sound payment systems. data breaches and pose inherent and underappreciated risk to consumers. we need a new ark tech or transferred. we also need to preserve what has worked so well for so long with the u.s. dollar. cash is an incredibly important tool. and the features of it are alluded to by mr. hill when he was talking about system that could work for banks and for individuals. u.s. dollar, if i exchange it, i don't have to go to a bank. i can transfer it between any one person. it's recognized as legal tender throughout the united states. and i don't necessarily have to share all kinds of personally identifiable information when i get it. some people hate that. but the reality is when you go to a bank, our system of laws requires the bank to know all sorts of things. frankly, to spy on all their customers in order to continue to be permitted to operate. and they do that largely to keep us safe and to protect us from crimes and thing like that. but there's a system of cash that's permissible for peer to peer. so as we talked about block chain, i don't think everyone would agree in terms of where we are at with block chain or crypto assets, but it's largely a matter of whether it's understood or rightly understood, in my opinion. because there's a fear that there's all this abuse. there's been some fraud in the crypto space. and rather than the solution isn't just to avoid the space altogether. it's the opposite. it's to provide regulatory certainty and legislateive clarity that does not exist currently. block chain broadly protects personally identifiable information and done correctly it can eliminate intermediaries. true distributed ledger technology. so how could we do this? it's not a partisan issue. i have co-sponsors for legislation that include people who support bernie sanders and co-sponsor who is support donald trump, from the north, south, east, west, republicans and democrats. the real issue is whether we will confront it. will we continue of the status quo that protects incumbents or will we embrace innovation that will inherently disrupt the current system is. when confronted with this opportunity in the 19 0s, congress got it right and the internet flour you shalled. congress did not try to understand everything about the architecture of the internet. any time there's a hearing, congress still does not understand everything. no one has yet envision eded all the use cases for the internet. how does all this relate to payments? post-games payments? innovators and payment systems, not to avoid our regulations but to find legislative clarity in places like switzerland and singapore. will we provide legislative certainty with bills like the bipartisans, will we address the problem and will we allow americans to act freely? they slow the payment system, charge fees and do make banking less assessable to some people. i thank you for talking about this. mr. ahmed perhaps the bridge between the old and new economies, what are your thoughts of the framework that i laid out here. >> i understand the framework and the need for anonymity, i think it is the aspect of crypto currencies. i think you see that in varying degrees as i mention and have access to financial information. it is certainly something that people demand and certainly something that technological fixes more but you also acknowledge there are real concerns of government perspective about financing and money laundering and figuring out a balance between those two and as i resolve those, i think it is a key question. >> i think i am encouraged by things like technology on the distributed ledger. you do have privacy but you don't have secrecy. my time is expired, thank you all. >> the gentleman yields back. the chairman recognizes mr. gonzales for five minutes. >> thank you for holding this hearing today. it reflects some of the challenges that we have legislatively. it seems to me with respect, we are not quite sure if we want to go. we think we kind of have a destination in mind but how we get there is always different. i want to start with you, i want to try to summarize part of your testimony and give me a yes or no as to whether you think i kind of got it. saw a lot of claims that seemed to be that think tech is primarily more about jargon that's exclusionary in applications as oppose to provide innovation. is that a fair characterization? >> sort of. >> can you clear it up for me? >> it is not intrinsically bad or good. technology is the solution and so it is going to solve the problem and solve inequality and all these deep entrenched problems. to my point the committee on thin tech is to underscore experience and financial institutions that work with low income people with immigrants with these marginalized communities don't experience these benefits of fin tech yet. it is the reverse where they promise this is a steppingstone to greater access and greater opportunity when it is not reenforcing. >> thank you. so then i want to turn to mr. ahmed. can you talk specifically about the work that you ail have been able to do by being in the digital digital payment space for affordable credit for small businesses, i hear about this from folks in my district frankly that they love products like yours because now they have the ailmentbility to access credit. >> we have our paypal working capital. we partner with the bank and offer a loan and what we find is that 70% of these loans are going to the counties that lost ten or more banks as mr. del rio mentions since the financial crisis, we found 32 of these loans go to women's businesses women own businesses, 32% of the economy. it is the ability to offer that loan to individuals that need it anywhere in the country, very, very quickly in a secure manner and a convenient manner that's distinctive part of the problem. >> that allows you to price credit effectively. >> absolutely. it has the opportunity that mirrors the feedback that i get. i am sensitive to the comment and legitimate that we need to as we are thinking through those regulatory environment making sure that access is central component of what we are doing, right? i do think that if we are in a world where we are going to try to stop innovation in advance because you fear of something may or may not happen, that's a dangerous place to be. you also mention mr. ahmed, compliance, as we transition or potentially hopefully transition more of a block chain system, that's one concern that everybody raises. can you provide your perspective on that. thas is that a tech challenge or a regulatory challenge. how can we be comfortable in that world? >> there are technological solutions to be able to track, you know, transactions even on cryptography and a regulatory channel of how you actually go after the types of things you are worried about but ensure that you know legitimate transactions are getting through. i think it is probably a little bit of both. >> great. >> i yield back. >> wethe chairman recognize the gentleman from new jersey. >> thank you for allowing me to sit here today with the task force. being a guest here and allowing other committee members going before me. i would like to mr. davidson behind me. for me, it is about choice. what happens to that segment of the country that does not come along with this move towards other currencies? what happens to the grandmother that just can't learn all of this on the phone? what happens to child that their dad gives them a dollar to get candy. you have to carry a card now? go get yourself a lollipop. it is about choice. when the issue is raised, is cash king? i don't know if it is king or not but in the united states of america, there should be a choice. there are under served and bank communities that are not going to rise. i still unfortunately don't use paypal because i have not learned to use it yet. i would consider myself fairly sad but there are just communities that i am concerned about that i represent that are just not going to rise this change. 3 million people information. three million americans information, forget about target several years ago. so, cash still really the american way, legal dollar, george washington's face on the dollar. were talking about doing away with that. you are doing away a segment of the country, the statistics are right behind you. 34% of african-americans use cash. what do you say to making sure that there is a choice in this k $50, 000, we are seeing this trend not only in the united states but globally. 60% of adults in brazil, 52% in mexico and 41% in kenya have smartphones. the numbers are continuing to rise at a aggressive rate. so given the adoption of smartphones and the near total market penetration. i think we should be having a conversation of how mobile payments can foster financial inclusion rather than simply identify the risk of financial exclusion which should identify the risks but we should spend more time how this can help us moving forward and hope technology can help those that are unbanked. mr. amed, can i ask you if your testimony, you mentioned that the most significantly barrier to mobile payments to consumers is poor competitivety in a way, can you elaborate on that comment in just a bit? >> there is a smartphone for us. >> if your employer pays you in cash and living in a community where most of the options are available for you to get groceries or to take transportation, you know the common method of acceptance or preferred method of acceptance is going to be cash, it makes a lot of sense for you to be using cash. i appreciate you highlight the point of financial inclusion, we are thinking o f paypal of financial health. can we create value propositions using the financial services to say there is a better option here, digital payment if except accepted by the merchant. that's really where we are trying to focus and do it in partnership. >> we go back and look at the widespread adoption of smartphones and continuing trend lines across the united states and across different demographic groups. how bad is allowing paypal to serve some of these individuals that we are previously unbanked? certainly, we are riding a very strong trend in the space in the mobile payments, in the mobile access face, were seeing mobile payments grocers of, that certainly a lot of, the focus of her company, whether it's invent, know our core people product, is to create better and more experiences using a mobile device, for people to be able to use, again everywhere they go. >> appreciate your comments, appreciate your time here today, i do think, as we spend a lot of time today defying some of the risks, they support that we also identify a lot of the positives, some of these mobile payment technologies, genesis, those that are currently on bank, in our system, thank you very much. >> gentleman yields back, and the chair will now recognize the ranking member for some closing remarks, five minutes. >> thank you mister chair again thank you for the committee for this interesting discussion, i really appreciate my colleague from wisconsin, i think pushing the reset button and getting us to refocus, because a lot of what i hear when we talk about technology, reminds me of what humans have dealt with since the beginning of, time we fear what we don't know, and by acting before we really understand, what we are dealing with, we have a tendency to drive innovation and more importantly the entrepreneurs responsible for it, the great signs everything else out. we should lead when it comes to these technology advances, frankly, i was eliciting the comment when you said that we banned cashless businesses, that's actually kind of sad, because in the next follow-up was we need government to give us more solutions, if you think back to 2007, i believe we had roughly 9000 community banks, main street across this country with roughly 9000 credit unions like the one that you chair, a year later, the crash, we still had, roughly after the crash, between 2008, 2010 or 11, we still had roughly 9000 reach, and that congress rushed in to help, like congress did with the savings along crisis and every other crisis, because governments got to save us from ourselves. and ever since it's accelerated, the pressures on small community banks and credit unions, to the extent that we now have, roughly, i think less than 6000 of each, every losing more every day, rather than trying to create an environment where we are creating more mainstream making opportunities, so the idea that the government is going to solve, it by banning it i just want to give you something. because i think it's funny what i hear from him in one of my own colleagues, that crypto is the preferred method of laundering money. my colleague mr. payne, just pointed out the only truly private thing left, is catch. we can identify people on the internet. you can't necessarily it to defy somebody is pairing around suitcases of cash. and i think the comment was el chapo, at 200 million dollars in cash on his property. i had my guys check, i don't think he had any cryptocurrency by the way, his son might have, but he did. i would suggest to anybody who's interested, again because i think the rhetoric really is this is silk road, this is dangerous, technology is going to disenfranchise, because we don't, learned by the way to my colleague who says what about the grandmother who doesn't know or the child, i agree with, him but i want to those people when it goes to the check along at the grocery store in this is sure the self-service open. now i'm going to the, person i want to talk to somebody, and people are going to, besides if they go through the self-serve, i want the employee discount, because i'm doing the job. i should get the discount. i think what we should be concerned. always and i respect and i'm very sensitive to the fact that we are all, thinking, i hope in the same, vein we want people to have access, we want people to be empowered and to grow, and be able to lift themselves up we just look at it a little differently. i suggest if you haven't. take a look at the book the age of cryptocurrency, this book begins with the story of afghan women, who are typically excluded and shunned from partaking in finances. it's a cultural issue, these afghan women were using bitcoin to built up a financial livelihood, and to store value that is solely there. this is the kind of empowerment, that is not something that i think we should just be top saying aside, again because we cannot see all of the things out on the horizon. we have to make sure we are very careful, in this institution in particular, it has to start moving a little quicker with the certainty questions that we talked, about the marketplace, because at the end of the day. that is where we are going, and i think people need to be very clear, but did either help facilitate this technology advancement or it's going to happen without us. god forbid it happened somewhere else, or we don't have any say, so again thank you to the witnesses. mister chair, thank you very much for having us today. >> -- >> absolutely, thank you for your remarks as well, in closing i do want to point out, the difficulty here that we face i was in somalia last week, we did a cold out, there to -- i'm keenly aware of the need within somalia for a. secure banking apparatus. to help that country recover. and all of the big banks have left because of the threat of reputation will damage due to the control of al-shabaab. and terrorist elements in that country but you do see the need for value transfer system that is, secure and that will allow that battery to recover. clearly there are some advantages to be had. in additional system that is secure. it is a very different circumstance but i clearly see the benefits, but i also see what our regulatory system has secured. most of our guitar system on the financial side has been created as a result of responses to calamities in this country. we had 9000 bank failures during the depression. 9000 came up in coordination with the sec and others. in created the fdic so it federal deposit incorporation and now even though we had a catastrophe in recession in 2007, 2008 we didn't see all the banks closing down like we did before. there are advantages to having those intermediaries. and now i'm a bit concerned about the push for block chain, and a system that eliminates intermediaries so we go around the federal reserve. because it's peer to peer, we go around the sec. we go around treasury and can sound the financial crimes enforcement network, we go around all these intermediaries that allow us to rebalance and correct some of the inequities, it's a big challenge, but it's extremely interesting, and i agree we've got to try to trap this, to tackle this and get the best out of the system like that, while protecting against the worst aspects of what some of this new untested technology might present. i want to thank you all for wonderful testimony, all of you brought your a game here today, and really help us work through some of these issues, they're extremely complicated, but we want to understand how this affects everyone, the banking industry has tended to gravitate toward the needs of the wealth. i remember when i was nine law for 20 years and i became union president, for the council to that the men and women on the jobs could go cash their checks at the end of the workday. amara bank, a big bank, still, around and told me as union president they didn't want to do business with my workers anymore, because the amount of money they were making on their transactions didn't cover, the cleaning of the rug, because my guys and gals were coming in with muddy boots. so that type of elitist attitude, that we want to take care of the rich folk, and not the workers so much, and that is where the money is, on the high end of this spectrum, we have to be careful, actually careful the for designing a system it is inclusive of everyone, and i think we can do, it i think we can accomplish the goals that have been articulated up here, we just have to be smarter about a part of it is the way we engineer this, and part of it is the way that we not only engineer the architecture but also regulate on behalf of the american people, because we are the only group that can really, intercede on behalf of those people, in our economic system in our legal system thank you very much for your testimony, as always, let me just read this. if i can find it. number shall have five days. ... without objection the following letters will be submitted for the record. that is from the american no common sense see ntsb. points are the electronic payments coalition not gather transaction association of money services business association the national association of convenience, stores nationalists ocean or federally insured credit unions, prima card industry, security canada's council and square. and, the american bankers association, javelin adviser services and the honorable mr. donald pain junior. thank you. the objectionable burst of average for days in which to submit additional questions for members on the chair, which will be forwarded for the, response are respectful requested or witnesses please respond as promptly as you were, able without objections all members will have five legislative days in which to submit extraneous materials for collusion, record this hearing is now adjourned thank you. critical call below. >> my vote is no. >> mister chairman there are 23 eyes and 17 oh the. >> the articles agree -- >> article one is adopted. >> a quarter more rise to just under democrats have accorded this president. >> the presidents crimes are impeachable. of the impeachment of donald trump, president of the united states, now standing. he will do impartial justice a quote the constitution. so help you god. >> since the president was sworn into office, there was a desire to see him removed. >> the impeachment of president trump. watch unfiltered coverage of the trial on c-span to, life with same derrières. follow the process on demand at c-span dot or slash impeachment and listen on the go using the free c-span radio app.
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