Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing On Scams Targeting Veterans 20240713

This hearing will come to order. Good morning. Next week americans will honor our nations veterans who have paid the price for our freedom in times of conflict and served as our shield in times of peace. Today, nearly 20 million americans have earned the title of veteran. Im proud to say that maine is home to more than 114,000 veterans. The second highest percentage in our entire country. We owe them such a great debt. The gratitude we express in words on veterans day can repay this debt only in small measure. A truly grateful nation must match its words with actions. As we will learn today, one issue that calls for our immediate action is to fight a newer enemy facing our veterans and that is those relentless con artists who seek to rob them of their life savings and defraud them of the benefits they have earned in service to our country. Often, veterans fall victim to the same scams that this committee has highlighted in recent years such as the irs imposter scam, the grandparent scam, the romance scam, the jamaican lottery scheme and Identity Theft. Theres also troubling evidence that some fraudsters are deliberately targeting veterans and theyre structuring their scams in order to reach our veterans. For example, in a case that we will hear more about today, a fraudster set up an entity called the veterans pension planners of america. Sounds legitimate, doesnt it . It was not. She used it to operate what is often referred to as an aid and attendance scam. Her pitch was that she could help veterans diversify their assets to get beneath the threshold to qualify for va benefits if they released their assets to her. Instead she stole their assets and spent their money. All told, she defrauded 78 victims out of 2 million before she was arrested and convicted on multiple state and federal charges. Scammers exploit public support for those who have served our country by creating Fake Charities that supposedly raise money for needy veterans but instead funnel funds from generous contributors to greedy fraudsters. In one recent case, the con artist operating out of michigan was convicted of stealing nearly 200,000 from 36 victims who thought they were donating to charities benefitting veterans. Not only did the veterans never see a dime of this money, the fraudster added insult to injury by stealing the victims personally identifiable information to commit identify theft. Fortunately through the very good work of the u. S. Postal inspections service, this criminal is now behind bars. Other criminals promised to help veterans claim benefits from nonexistent Government Programs or they charge inappropriate fees for helping veterans apply for the benefits theyve earned or they exploit the sense of comradery that veterans feel for one another to gain their Victims Trust and swindle them out of their savings. These regrettably are not isolated examples. Surveys show that more than three quarters of our veterans have been contacted by con artists. Given these facts, what action should we take to protect our veterans . Certainly the cases we will highlight in this hearing show the value of aggressive prosecution. That sends a real message to other criminals out there that they will be pursued, they will be caught, and they will be brought to justice. But its this committee has often noted, many con artists operate offshore, beyond the reach of our state and local Law Enforcement and some veterans are simply too embarrassed to report that they have been scammed. Although they shouldnt be because it can happen to anyone. Instead, we must find ways to protect our veterans from scams before they become victims. Education is one way. Thats one of the reasons were holding this hearing today. Another is to build on the comradery veterans have for one another by bringing them together to provide another set of eyes. The nonprofit vet to vet Maine Program shows how the trusted judgment of a fellow veteran can stop a scam before it starts. Before closing, i want to note the reason gao study that identified actions that the Veterans Administration can take to better protect veterans from aid and attendance scams. According to the gao, they receive reports of potential fraud or exploitation but it does not analyze this information to assess the prevalence of scams, inform its outreach efforts, or to help Law Enforcement pursue these criminals. I believe that the va should take a leading role in this fight. The Ranking Member and i, as well as other members of this committee, will be writing to the secretary of the va to ask what steps the department is taking to assess the risk posed to our nations veterans and what can be done to better protect them from fraud. As veterans day approaches, we remember all those who serve, not just by honoring their service through our words, but also by the actions that we take. Veterans and their families have a right to expect that the nation they served will fight to protect them from unscrupulous individuals. As the aarp says in its bulletin, they protected us, now its our turn. I now am happy to turn to our Ranking Member for his opening statement. Thank you. Chairman collins, thank you for holding this very important hearing especially as we prepare for veterans day. Im pleased as i know we all are that were joined by three veterans, one of whom is an active reservist on this panel today. We want to thank each of you for your service to the country and grateful for your testimony today. Veterans day is only days away and its a day when we honor those who served our country not only in war but also in peace. And its a reminder of our abiding responsibility to serve them, to serve them in return. President lincoln outlined a simple mandate when it comes to the care that our veterans are owed, quote, that we must care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, unquote. Way back in 1991, my father was taking the oath of office as governor and it happened to be the day before the invasion of iraq when our soldiers were heading into combat and at that time he said and im quoting we pray for them and for ourselves that we may be worthy of their valor, unquote. Being worthy of their valor, if you happen to be a member of congress, if youre going to prove yourself worthy of their valor, you ought to prove it by your actions. Here in the senate and the congress overall, we have an the opportunity and the ability to demonstrate that we are worthy of their valor by ensuring that veterans receive every single benefit that they are owed and even more. And when we learn of barriers to those benefits, we must work to overcome those barriers. Thats why im fighting so hard to hold the department of Veterans Affairs accountable for providing every veteran access to information about their va benefits. My legislation, the va website accountability act, which i hope we can pass by the end of this year, would get us one step closer to comprehensive accessibility for veterans. Its why im fighting to ensure that caregivers who watch over our veterans every single day are supported and given respite. The supporting of veterans caregivers act would ensure caregivers cannot be kicked out of the va caregivers program. And as well discuss today, its why chairman collins and i wanted to hold this hearing to ensure that not one more veteran, not one more veteran loses one more penny to a scammer, a schemer, or a con artist. So we must not stop with just the hearing. We know that 78 of veterans report receiving a scam attempt related to their veteran status. Almost eight out of ten. If we are to be worthy of the valor of our veterans, this number should be zero, not 78 , it should be zero. A recent report from the gao found that the va lacks a central clearinghouse for soliciting and collecting information on potential financial exploitation of veterans receiving pension benefits. To say this is troubling is an understatement. The gao provided the va with clear recommendations for addressing this problem and now im quoting, quote, systematically solicit and collect information on potential financial exploitation, unquote, and, quote, assess this information to address plans to address the potential exploitation of veterans receiving pension benefits, unquote. Instead of working to implement the recommendations, the va is putting in place a process that the gao claims would, quote, not fully address the underlying issue, unquote. I think theyre being a little charitable in their assessment of what the va is doing in response. This is totally unacceptable. Thats why were sending a letter, members of this committee, chairman collins and i and others, to find out more about this decision and also why the va is not doing more to combat scams against veterans. And as well hear today, in order to put an end to the predatory practice of scammers, scammers of the worst kind of who prey upon those who serve, there needs to be an all hands on deck approach. We need to find a way to stop these scammers from getting through phone lines, we need to be sure that people are educated about how to avoid becoming victims of a scam. There must be a place to report scammers, whether its the department of justice, the federal trade commission, the va or right here at the aging committee by way of our fraud hotline. We need to ensure that prosecutors have the tools they need to go after these criminals and keep them behind bars. Im certain that our hearing today will touch upon all of these topics and more, but its unconscionable to me that someone who would stoop so low as to steal money from someone who agreed to sacrifice so much for our country and its also unconscionable to me and i know members of this committee, that someone would also stoop so low to pad their own pockets by spewing a tale of caring for veterans when theyre doing nothing of the kind. Chairman collins, this hearing could not be more important. We thank you for holding it and we look forward to the testimony of our witnesses. Thank you, senator casey. I want to acknowledge that senator brawn and senator blumenthal have joined us and were now going to turn to our panel of witnesses. Our first witness is ben wells from portland, maine. Mr. Wells is an air force veteran who participated in Operation Enduring freedom. He flew 35 combat missions, earned an air medal and was honorably discharged in 2013. He then had the wisdom to move to the great state of maine where he became involved in the vet to vet program. A local nonprofit that matches veterans for companionship, mentorship, and other assistance. I will now turn to our Ranking Member to introduce our second witness. Thank you, chairman collins. Im pleased to introduce leverne foreman. Thank you for making the trip and were grateful youre willing to be with us. He served in the u. S. Air force, the u. S. Army reserve as well as the national guard. He worked as a civilian employee for the army. Hes here today to share with us what happened to him a few years ago when con artists stole money from him claiming it would go to a veterans organization. Leverne later learned there was no organization, he reported what happened and its possible hell be able to help the prosecution of the scammers. Id also like to welcome levernes wife, doris, who is with us today, his daughter terry and soninlaw jeffrey who are also here. Were also grateful, leverne, as we are to all of our veterans today and we hope every day were grateful for your service but especially for taking the time to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Our next witness will be dewane richardson, the District Attorney for three counties in mississippi. He has been a real leader in combatting these scams. First selected at the tender age of 30, one of the youngest das in the states history, mr. Richardson later became the first africanamerican to serve as president of the Mississippi Prosecutors Association and finally, last but certainly not least, we will hear from inspector carol harris, the acting inspector in charge of the Communications Strategy group at the United States Postal Inspection Service. Hes also a Lieutenant Colonel in the u. S. Marine corps reserves who served in iraq and kuwait. He now leads operation protect veterans for the Postal Inspection Service and will discuss its efforts to combat fraud targeting our veterans. Mr. Wells, well begin with you. Thank you all for being here. Thank you. Chairman collins, Ranking Member, casey, members of the committee, thank you for having me here. Its an honor to speak about this issue. As you said, senator collins, i was an air force veteran, i got out in 2013 and relocated to maine in 2014. Upon arriving there i wanted to continue my dedication to service and i was looking for opportunities to volunteer while i applied to graduate schools. I found vet to vet maine and i liked what they had to say. They offered companionship for isolated veterans. Theres a significant number of veterans in the state. What i would also like to emphasize is theres a significant number of elderly men and women in the state and veterans are not exception. What vet to vet maine seeks to address is the isolation of those veterans but also connect them with benefits that they likely qualify before and havent been receiving. So when vet to vet contacted me, i went in and connected me with a veteran force veteran. He was a maintainer on jet aircraft. Over the course of several weeks, i was in his house once a week meeting with him and his wife. You know, conversation, coffee, taking him out to lunch, getting out of the house. It was clear to me they were isolated. They lived in wyndham, maine, which is not a metropolitan area. I was able to have a good connection with them. And i became aware that he had never in 60 years of being out of the military, been connected with the va in any way. I became aware his wife had had contact with the vet to vet Maine Program as a way to get respite care as he was in declining health. He had Significant Health problems, including physical issues, chronic pain and diabetes. At the time i saw him, they were spending hundreds of dollars of diabetes medication alone and living off a small pension from a telecommunications his work in telecommunications and his Social Security benefits. That became my first order of business, get him connected to the va and get the medical care, pharmaceutical care he not only qualified for and deserved, but really needed. In the process i was able to help them fill out the paperwork. I contacted the vet to vet Maine Program to get him a case manager, make them aware of his needs in the home and see if there were other organizations that could help them out. In that process, she continued as paperwork was slow to process, as it always is, she continued to reach out. She saw an ad in the newspaper, i think it came with the coupons, for a program that was advertising free home care and respite care for veterans. Sounds really good. She contacted this organization. She had the foresight to reach out to me to sit in on this conversation. I accepted. The nature of this was two gentlemen showed up to the house offering free respite or in home care to them. Their sales pitch was what they were going to do is they were going to assist them in obtaining a pension from the va and that would also allow them access to the aid and Attendance Program as you previously mentioned. What they wanted and what struck me, sort of the first red flag in the situation was that how theyre going to finance this. They wanted my veteran to open up a separate Checking Account they had draft rights on so they could autodraft. They were going to auto deduct whatever pension and benefit they got. Thats not out and out illegal or anything, but thats theres no conversation as to why that existed instead of regular payment methods. I started to ask questions. They then continued and said how they were going to get him to qualify the means test, which all these pension and benefits are means tested. He was slightly over. At which point he started to describe a method they could report medical bills to the va to lower their total income and pass the means test. Thats fine. Except that even with medical bills, even with the hundreds of dollars in insulin they werent going to pass it. He suggested that they employ, in air quotes, their daughter, as a medical aide, which she was not qualified, trained or certified in, to do things like filling their prescriptions over the phone or going and picking up prescriptions and this sort. They could pay her, which they werent going to, a stipend and then put that into their account. The fuzzy math is where i really threw down this wasnt a good idea. Luckily, they had trusted me, i said really shouldnt do this. And they were able to avoid the scam. They ended up going through the regular process. They got benefits, in home care and respite care through va and other organizations. Ultimately he was moved to hospice and then passed. At least in the later stages of his life he had that care and it didnt put significant financial strain on the veteran. Thank you. Thank you so much for intervening and caring enough to do so. I cant imagine what the final years of life would have been for this couple if they hadnt followed your advice. Im sure that they would have lost everything they were getting that was in that separate Checking Account. Mr. Foreman . Chairman collins, members of the committee, i thank you for inviting me to testify here tod today. Its an honor today and talk to you about veterans scams. My name is laverne foreman, and im 82 years old. I live in the hernden area in pennsylvania. Im retired both from the Civil Service as well as the military. Having served in the air force, the Army Reserves and the Army National guard. Im proud to be a veteran. For most part, people thank me for my service. It never occurred to me that someone would be so cold hearted to make a call and claim to care for veterans when in reality all theyre doing is lining their own pockets. Five years ago i learned how reckless they can be. When i received a phone call from senator caseys office inviting me to testify before you today, i was pleased to accept the invitation and share with you what happened. It isnt easy for me to talk about this scam. What im doing today is an extension of my service. I feel alt sense of responsibility to warn others who served and to be vigilant against scams. Let me explain, in september of 2014, i received a call from an organization disabled and Paralyzed Veterans Fund or dpvf. Requesting a donation. I was told in the conversation that the organization was dedicated to helping disabled and paralyzed veterans. It raised funds to support va hospital and veteran homelessness. Ive donated to similar organizations in the past because of my concerns for and the sensitivity of my peers. I pledged at that time to send a one time donation to dpbf for 20. However, when i received a pledge later, the organization they sent me it showed i had pledged 25. I thought this was odd, however rather than arguing with them, i sent the 25 as listed. The following year in 2015, dpbf called me again to request a donation. I pledged to give an amount that was given previously. Again when i received a pledge letter it was a few dollars more than i had pledged on the phone. This time, 35. I grew even more suspicious and but believed it was it was just the way the fundraiser is trying to get more money. I tried calling the organization in washington, they listed a washington, d. C. Telephone number. But it was of no help. I ended up writing a letter to them to explain that i had agreed to a lower amount and i questioned their approach. I enclosed the check for the 35 i didnt want to get into an argument and i asked them at that time to remove my name from their contact list. I didnt want to hear from them again. In february of 2016, when i received my statement from my credit union, i noticed a check listed with a number thats not within the number sequence of my checks. I thought it was strange, so i called my credit union and they confirmed that it was a remotely generated check from paralyzed and disabled veterans fund. I was kind of shocked that they must have made a copy of my check and kept the routing and account number information. I hadnt spoken to this organization or sent a recent donation and i realize i was scammed. Theres a lot of legitimate organizations that can serve as organization said, you know, like paralyzed veterans of american, disabled american veterans. I realized theres no such organization as the disabled and Paralyzed Veterans Fund. At that point, i reported this matter to the Pennsylvania Attorney generals office. I was later contacted by the u. S. Postal system. And i was glad to hear that theres an investigation and that there will be some kind of action taken against this organization. I know that im not can be considered one of the lucky ones. I did not give a scammer a lot of money. And i noticed the fraudulent check immediately but i know not everyone is as lucky as i am. The phony organizations and people who steal money by pretending to help veterans must be stopped. I never believed someone would stoop so low as to steal money and veterans from a veteran. These scam artists rip off innocent people and as a result contributions are diverted away from organizations that are actually trying to do for the veterans. My loss may seem small, but im certain that these scammers have targeted thousands if not millions of more people. The total sum probably far exceeds anything ill ever learn in my lifetime. And that is wrong. Unbe unbehalf of veterans i ask everyone to play their part. Thank you again for inviting me to testify today. I hope im sharing my story, i can help someone from losing money to these types of scammers. I thank you. Thank you, very much, mr. Foreman, for coming forward and warning others. Thats courageous of you and im sure youll save others from going through what you did, even though you were able to stop it pretty quickly. District attorney richardson, welcome. Chairman collins, Ranking Member casey, and members of the committee, im District Attorney dwayne richardson. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before this committee about our offices investigation and prosecution of crimes committed. My office first became aware of these actions due to a single bad check. This check led to the unraveling of a fraud that amounted to millions of dollars stolen from the ielderly, veterans and thei families. In 2011, the man was introduced to 89yearold grace ward. He promised the ward family she would provide a 10 return of their investment, along with securing medicare benefits which would be used to offset the cost of licving at the facility. The family presented them with a check in the amount of grace wards life savings. When grace ward passed away, they contacted the company. They delivered to the ward family on september 30th, 2011, in the amount of 192,000. This was to include the initial investment. And it was at this moment when she committed the crime of check fraud. Graces son contacted my office as the business had a location in my district. And after learning about the crimes, my office became determined to do Everything Possible to make this family whole and attempt to recoup their funds. My offices investigation lasted almost five years. She was tracked down after being listed in the Riverside County Mental Health boards monthly meeting agenda. She was operating a senior veterans consulting in riverside, california. With the assistance of the u. S. Marshal service, she was arrested and brought back to mississippi. It was also at that time due to Media Publicity i began to receive phone calls from other victims from across the case. It was also at that time i learned of an investigation being done by a u. S. Postal inspector. One of those sdilsh victims i spoke to was a World War Ii Air force veteran. As he began to show signs of alzheimers, his children began to look for living assistance programs for him. The family was introduced to the woman in 2011. The family were made the same fraudulent promises as the wards and she was able to convince that family to hand over control of 340,000 of their funds. She guaranteed that he would receive Veterans Benefits as well as the same return on his investment as she promised the wards. S it was not until the veterans passing that his family learned of the fraudulent scheme. On the same day of his funeral, a postal inspector contacted his son, jamie and told them of the schemes and on the same day that they gave control of their dads 340,000, she used their money to purchase a race car and advertising for her son. Ultimately she was convicted in three counties in mississippi. Wa she was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison for all three counties together. In addition to the mississippi convictions, she was charged later in a 19 count federal indictment in 2015. She pled gelt to one count of indictment and was sentenced to 53 months in custody to run at the same time as she served the mississippi time. She was also ordered to pay over 2 million in restitution. After speaking to the victims, words cannot express the level of devastation she imposed on their lives. All her victims were elder lecitizel ly citizens. The crimes imposed a severe financial hardship. Grace wards one desire was that she would provide for her Family Financial after her death. In total, she was ordered to pay over 2. 5 million in restitution. To date, she has not paid one cent in restitution. Shes only paid in all her crimes 50 towards a 100 mandatory federal assessment. A wellrespected prosecutor has often said its our duty to care for our widows and our elderly. What began as a complaint for she is a very smart and connected a very conniving individual. She found her victims at the very institutions that should have cared for and protected them. But when she presented them her proposals, she came to the meetings with all the right credentials and the right connections to achieve the results that the victims desired. All she left each family was an empty bank account and broken promises. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before this committee. I look forward to answering any questions. Thank you very much. Im very grateful to your compassion for the victims of these crimes in your determination to put these criminals behind bars. Thank you. Inspector harris . Good morning chairman collins, Ranking Member casey and members of the committee. Thank you for holding this hearing on veteran related scams. Im the acting inspector in charge responsible for communications within the u. S. Postal Inspection Service. The Law Enforcement Crime Prevention and security arm of the Postal Service. I started my career in Government Service and i joined the marine corp in 1990. I continue to serve as a marine corp reservist. Veterans are twice as likely to unknowingly participate in a scam as compared to the general population. They encounter scams that have been tailored just for them. It would be buy outs, Fake Charities and scams that offer special access to Veterans Benefits but for a fee. In these cases, the scammer makes it appear they represent a Government Agency or veteran organization. Or claim that they themselves serve in the military so they can create a sense of affinity. Impostors like these know the members of the military have been trained to trust other Service Members and to honor the bonds of service. Another finding from the survey found that veterans experience post Traumatic Stress at a rate more than double the general public. It can be difficult for a veteran to recognize when their otherwise good adjustment has been temporarily clouded by what an experienced fraud operator is selling. In one case, postal investigators investigated a woman, who led vets to believe she was a certified advisor. She told veterans she could boost their pensions by making it appear they had fewer assets and could qualify for greater assistance. She offered today reinvest her clients money in Financial Products that she would control. She was jeopardizing their benefits with clever moves like these. In reality, the fraud operator never reinvested the money on the veterans behalf. She took the money and spent it on herself. That is until she landed in jail. In another case, a fake charity led people to believe their donations would help disabled and paralyzed veterans, especially vets who are vulnerable to suicide. Mr. Foreman, another witness here, received one of those solicitations. He generously gave his done nag donation. In 2017, aarp and the u. S. Postal Inspection Service launched operation protect veterans. Since that time weve been sharing tips on how vets can protect their personal information with the help of veterans organizations, Library Senior centers and 30,000 post offices across the country. We distribute these customized brochures and surveys. It serves two important purposes. Its a means for veterans to tell us what kinds of scams theyre seeing, but more importantly, by filling out the survey and returning it, its raised their awareness. We believe its boosted their immunity to fraud. When postal inspectors are asked how can consumers stay safe financially . We remind them stop and talk. If you receive a request to send money to someone youve only known online, find a friend before you reach for your wallet. People who operate fraud schemes are successful because theyre persuasive and because theyve convinced us to keep it a secret. Why . Because scams only work when were isolated from the people we know and trust at any age, but especially after we retire. We all need to make sure theres an extra pair of eyes on the decisions we make about our money. We need a trustworthy friend or family member. We refer to this as our foxhole buddy. I got your six is another way of saying ive got your back. When i was in a foxhole my buddy wau was the person to be my eyed when i couldnt see. My buddy was up when i was down and when he was down, i was up. I use a lot of military jargon. I grew up in a household where it was used freely. My father served vietnam. Service, honor and duty were household terms. When the postalinal spection Service Launched operation protect veterans, i shared this brochure with my dad. Dad, you have me to talk to about money matters. But not everyone has someone to confide in. Maybe you can help others. Pass this brochure to your friends. Be a foxhole buddy for someone else. Before i conclude, i want to thank the committee for its efforts to stop fraudulent phone calls. We know the scams dont just happen over the telephone line. But the ease with which a telemarketer can influence others over the phone is unparallel unparalleled. Inspectors tell consumers work with their phone Service Providers to stop robo and other unwanted calls. Thank you for helping to keep fraudulent calls from ever ringing our phones in the first place. I appreciate the opportunity to share with you. Thank you very much, inspector harris. I know firswhat a great job the Postal Inspection Service does and i appreciate your passion for this cause. So thank you. Mr. Wells, mr. Harris talked about how important it was to have someone that an older veteran can talk to. As i understand it, thats exactly what you did. Could you tell us a little bit more about the vet to vet program and the training you received . The vet to vet program does provide its volunteers with training to understand first and foremost how to connect with the veterans. Contact them weekly, send them emails, follow up, see how theyre doing. Because theyre going to be the eyes and ears in the household. How can you recognize if your veteran has a bunch of food thats in the refrigerator going bad, can you recognize if theyre able to maintain an upkeep themselves. Maybe recognize some signs or symptoms of cognitive decline or Mental Health issues. Really just sort of to be the eyes on the ground. As far as scams go, they offer training on how to recognize financial scams, information on scams that have been perpetuated before. Then a big focus of what that training was to allow the veterans to understand, the veteran volunteers i should say, the volunteers to understand the number of organizations and benefits that veterans and elderly qualify for in the state. So we didnt have to have ani intimate knowledge but recognize if there is a need we could refer back to the agency for benefits, that they were the resource. Lets talk about the scam that you helped prevent. A lot of times the con artist uses the telephone or the internet to send an email or a solicitation comes in the mail as mr. Foreman mentioned for a phony charity. If i understood you correctly, in this case it was a flyer, an add that was included in the local newspaper. Along with all the other flyers, is that correct . Yes, maam. It was an ad that was placed, part of a newsletter for the Southern Maine agency on aging. But it was, you know, something that just was sent out like anybody most people toss these things away as junk mail. It was a small ad. It was advertising exactly what i said, free in home and respite care for veterans. So this is an unusual method of trying to rip off our veterans, most of the ones that we hear about are the telephone calls, the robo calls, the internet scams or the direct solicitations in the mail. And so i think in many ways people would be less on guard for that kind of approach. Was it difficult for you to convince this older veteran that it was a scam or had you built up a relationship by that point so that he and his wife trusted your judgment . I dont think it was difficult at all. It was a sad thing to see that he the veteran was excited about this. You know, finally his wife had some relief. He was not mobile or very it was very hard for him, he had the assistance for walker. Were talking about a 200 pound 6 foot man in his 80s. His wife almost immediately said that once i laid out why this was likely a bad idea it sounded like it would expose them to legal problems with how they were going to do the accounting and potential fraud. She definitely because of our relationship and what she had seen with me and her husband was right on board. Inspector harris, one of the advantages of the Postal Service, is there are post offices everywhere in very small communities as well as larger urban areas. So tell us a little bit about how you make sure that this important flyer, which warns veterans about scams, but also cleverly has them fill out the survey so that you can get information and they get more educated. How are they distributed and how do you advertise this program . Chairman collins, thank you for that question. There are over 30,000 post offices across the country. And the post office lobby is incredibly volub incredibly valuable real estate for the community. We have placed these brochures in those lobbies across the country. We did that back in 2018. And we received many responses from them and we believe that we have helped not only veterans, but the population in general by highlighting the scams and schemes that are out there. We hope its served as a call to action to also share with others as we speak to enlist everyone in the fight against fraud by raising the awareness and calling them to help protect themselves and serve others in the community. Thank you, senator . Thank you very much, laverne, ill start with you. As i was listening to your story again and seeing and hearing and telling it. I was reminded it would be very easy for a lot of people to send that little extra, few extra dollars after you had your you knew it was more than you had promised. And because of the dollar amount, you could see how easy it would be for someone to gradually fall into the trap. So you know, absent this hearing and absent being educated by my staff and others, without that i probably would have done the same thing. When you think about the dollar amounts, we live in a countries, i just had my staff check, i think the u. S. Number is about 18 million veterans. In our state, pennsylvania is only 800,000. So the number of veterans is so big and the targeting is so substantial, about 80 roughly have been targeted. You could get a lot of money accumulating with small dollar amounts. Its very easy for any one of us to fall into that, number one. Number two, when i go around our state and visit senior centers, one thing i urge folks to do knowing it could happen to anyone at any age is to hang up if you have any suspicion. I dont think i would have had a suspicion in the case you cited. Hopefully i would have cut it off when you did. So other than something as simple as saying if you have some suspicion, hang up, thats Pretty Simple advice. What other tips would you give, especially to veterans based upon the experience you had . The fact that youre here provides that kind of advice for others. The number one action we took was caller i. D. To screen calls. Right. I feel thats an important step in the right direction. I dont answer calls that i dont recognize. The other is that if you do respond to a telephone call and somebodys asking for funds is to not provide a credit card or a check number, force them to send you a pledge letter. They all will do it. We also have to recognize how we as veterans telegraph our veterans status and we do it unknowingly. 75 to 80 of the return labels i put on my letters are either american legion, vfw, uso, something to do with the military. The people receiving those would even if they werent knowledgeable that i was a veteran, my letter basically tells them plus the credit union that i use was primarily one thats from a military organization. So theres multiple ways im telling them that im a veteran, even though i dont verbalize it on the phone. Pretty easy to fall into that. I want to ask you one more question. In your case, the fake charity used the bank and routing number from checks you had sent them to take money out of your account. And as you referred to in your testimony, they used the information to create a, quote, remotely generated check, unquote. A term, phrase of art. This type of check, as we know is legal but only when the person gives permission for the money to be withdrawn in this way. You mentioned you were shocked when you found out about it. You werent aware of remotely generated checks before this, nor was i until you brought it to our attention. Is there anything you wish the credit union could have done prior to the funds being removed to confirm you did not give your consent . Now that youre on the other side. It would be nice if the financial institution, they know the sequence of your checks. They normally sort by numeric sequence. In that, my organization always puts an asterisk after a skipped check. In my case, at that time my check series was 3600 and then theres a check thats coded 9000. You think that would set off a bell or whistle at the financial organization. I wish it was that way, but it didnt happen. Thanks very much. Madam chair. Thank you. Senator . Amazing that were even discussing this and that there seems to be like a farm system of bilkers out there. Im curious, ben, you know when that particular individual started that scam, is it still going on . What the life span is of the folks that get into the business of bilking . Do you know in your case . I couldnt tell you exactly the timeline, but it sounded like the operation was fairly new by the way they were describing it. And afterward, i did a recent search just to because when i first had a contact with them, i had their Business Card and i kicked myself for getting rid of it. But i did a recent search and couldnt find anything that was under that name any longer. Also going off memory for the name. They could have faded into the sunset, gotten by with what they did . Yeah. Laverne, you know, is the disabled and paralyzed vets fund still out there sending solicitations . I dont think so. As far as i know theyve been shut down. So i know running a company, when it comes to checks, that doesnt discriminate in any way, it attacks anyone that has a check out there. We constantly in our own company will find checks where they get your check, you know, do a reproduction and then in this case, 9000 out of context with 3000, seems like the institutions themselves i know weve had discussions before whats the responsibility of phone companies or banks when it comes to a lot of this stuff should be easy to ferret out among the institutions that are used to process these scams. Dwayne, im curious, the battle against this is the lifespan short of the scammers . You get rid of one, youre going to have two or three crop up . Whats the trend line been . Is it getting worse . Is it Getting Better . Seems like theres a lot of tools out there technologically where if the institutions that are used banks phone companies were on their game that you could figure this out before it becomes rampant . From what i can tell its dependent on whether or not the scammer is caught. What ive seen, the person started the action over ten years ago. It wasnt until seven years later when she was convicted of all crimes, she had at least thattume period. Also in doing so i learned in california, she had made contact with other scammers and there was two other individuals that started business with her. And so in looking at their background, both of them previously had problems with the law. And so who knows to what extent they have done it. Actually maybe having some legitimacy to it that you are going to get a good return, but it would be similar to madoff where you didnt have to pay out and in this case, 50 on 2 million. Theres a lot you said we need to do a better job of preventing and getting the institutions that are normally the vehicle, whether its a bank or a phone company more involved in it. Carol, what is your because the Postal Service is used so often to be, again, an agent for this. Are you finding more . Is it stabilizing . Less . Whats the prognosis look for down the road. Postal service has no interest in being an unwitting participant. As long as theres commerce, there will be scams and schemes. Hence the existence of the Inspection Service partnership with our federal state and local entities. Were going to continue to engage in the fight. Its still alluv and well. It evolves. Robo calls and the good work of the senate to stop the robo calls, an example of a digital evolution. But eventually, they connect to the mail. We move communications, we move physical goods. Eventually the conspiracies will work their way into our web. Thats when we coatch them. Are your attenae more alert . Are you generally reacting to a fait accompli . We use both. We believe strongly prevention messaging, optimizing the messaging we give to the public and the american consumer. We also vigorously enforce the laws as theyre written. So its both. Weve been doing both for decades. Thank you. Thank you, senator. Senator jones . Thank you, moadam chair. Thank you to all the witnesses being here. I appreciate what were hearing here today. You know, i cant help but think as were listening to this concerning illegal scams and criminal activity, i hear the same phrases of diverting money and false pretenses and taking hard earned money from veterans and particularly protecting and caring for our widows, orphans and elderly. I cannot help but think about a somewhat legal scam im just going to say it that you and i have been working on, thats the elimination of the veterans military widows tax. Congress and the United States is allowing that to be diverted and changed. And i appreciate your work so much on helping us. Im hopeful that we can get that in our ndaa this year so we can eliminate that scam once and for all. I would like to focus initially with my da buddy, mr. Harris. Because i know first hand these are difficult to track down and prosecute. Technology is changing, and it seems like when i was a prosecutor even as a defense lawyer some. It seemed like bad guys were always a couple steps ahead. They were able to work and do things. What can what tools do you need . Are there other tools that you could use right now to both track down and prosecute . I appreciate the idea of deterring and trying to make awareness. Thats wonderful that were trying to do that. Were not going to stop this. Its going to continue. What can we do as a congress to give you additional tools on both the state and federal level to try to stop these guys in their tracks so these guys dont last for years before theyre apprehended . Thank you for the question, senator. Its in consultation with the department of justice to seek an expansion of our Administrative Subpoena Authority to be on par with other department of justice federal Law Enforcement agencies so we can do more quicker to fight frauds or any of the other federal statutes we enforce to maximize the existence of our resource. Thats something that were in consultation with the department of justice. We believe theyre exploring the legislative approach to help us become on par with other doj entities there. Thats something that could help us. Your continued support of our federal Law Enforcement partners, your efforts to stop robbo calls i applaud. If you continue on that lane, i believe were making a dent and were forcing the criminal conspirators to evolve. Thank you for the question. From what ive noticed, there are lot of businesses like that. She operated businesses, medicaid planning resources, medicaid planning specialists, senior benefit consulting. All these sounded legitimate. And there are many other businesses like this. I would think that one, maybe if they were companies such as this were required to register or have various qualifications to administer the service theyre telling their constituents they can provide that would be of some benefit. If those same companies were required to sign off on those applications that theyre telling their constituents we can provide resources by providing medicaid services, if theyre required just like a tax preparer to sign off and put their name on the dotted line and say theyre the ones responsible for the information generated so that well be able to have some type of record, definitely, who is involved with what case. I really appreciate that. I would urge both of you to look at a bill that senator cotton and senator rounds and senator warner have to update our Money Laundering statutes. Weve got it pending right now, were hoping to get through. It would address that issue. The issue of Beneficial Ownership and require an index, of all those shell corporations that are out here. Thank you. I would urge the Das Association to maybe get involved and get behind that. Thank you. Thank you, senator. Senator . Thank you so much for having this important hearing. Thanks for all of you for sharing your testimony, especially mr. Foreman. I know theres so many like you who are not willing to come forward and share your testimony of what you went through. Thank you so much for that. These scams are coming in so many forms. As a veteran myself, theres a special place in hell for these people who are scamming on our heroes who raise their right hand, took an oath of office, are willing to give the ultimate sacrifice. They come home and now in a vulnerable place in their older years or whatever age, these people are going after them. I really appreciate this hearing. We need to do more to do everything it takes in order to find them, track them down and hold them accountable. These scams come in many different forms as you all have shared. One of which was highlighted recently where you have civilians who think theyre meeting a military member on a dating app and theyre serving overseas and they need help. This is where civilians are being roped into caring for our multiple and Luke Air Force base says theyre receiving many calls from civilians asking is this person really in the military, are they really deployed . Theyre having to help sort that out. Somehow tying peoples love for our veterans and military and their willingness to help to scam other civilians. This trend is going up as well. I dont know if you can share anything on the perspective on how veterans and military identity are basically being stolen to create the false profiles for that. Any perspectives on that . Or mr. Harris . What else we can do to take veterans identities as well that are scamming others . Everybodys getting scammed in this. Continued expansion of the messaging were providing generally speaking in order to protect piis. Something we should do. Hearings like this, other community outreach. Identity theft is an epidemic. Veterans are impacted like the rest of society. We need to take a societal approach to solve this. Whole of government approach from the government side. Its also outside of government. Its being that foxhole buddy for someone who needs a friend. Having someone check before you make a financial decision. Thank you. You know, for we hear these awful stories. You dont trust anybody now. You dont trust legitimate charities calling or soliciting you and that can have a negative impact on those who do need our support. I want to highlight another scam. As a veteran, i get some of these things in the pair. You know, maybe not an official scam in the way its identified. But i get these letters. Ive been getting one of them a week lately. I brought them with me to d. C. Administrative notice. Our review has indicated your va loan waiting period has expired. Keep a copy of this notice for your its all nonsense. My equity reserves. I knew something was off because my name is Sally Martha Mick on here. These guys cant even get their facts right. Its an actual bank. Im going to call them out right now. This is preying upon our veterans. Someone getting this going oh, some waiting period has expired. I need to call these people. It looks like its from the government. You think something is expired and theyre preying upon our threats to cash out or to pay ridiculous closing fees for legitimate i mean, it looks like a legitimate loan, but its misleading, confusing and were seeing more and more veterans complaining about these types of things. Im getting one of these a week. Imagine veterans who call this number and end up renuncing their home loan they dont need to be doing for some Interest Rate and some closing cost thats robbing them of their hard earned resources. This stuff needs to stop. Im going to see if we can work on this to see if we can tighten up these scams, too. Because theyre confusing and misleading to the veterans. Are you aware of these other activities going on that are also robbing our veterans . Yeah, i get a bunch of those and i throw hthem out. I get them about refinancing my home or i use the va backed mortgage benefit. Since then, ive gotten plenty of them telling me that either my va backed mortgage is going up. Luckily i have the wherewithal to read the fine print and recognize its not an official document. I can only imagine if i can back to my veteran i was working with and Failing Health and struggling and Something Like this, why not . Right. Lets work on that. Thank you all for your testimony today. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Senator . Thank you, chair. I apologize i didnt see that senator blumenthal had come back. He was here at the very beginning. I apologize. Senator blumenthal. Thank you very much, madam chair. Thank you for having this hearing. As long as ive been a prosecutor when i was attorney general in connecticut, as long as ive try to help veterans, this issue has been a perennial one. I have to say, i was moved by senator casey in his opening remarks when he referred to his dad and the comment about our seeking to be worthy of the service of our veterans. One of those areas where i think we often fail is to protect them from exactly these kinds of scams. I recently sent a letter calling attention to this program. I just came from the hearing of the Veterans Affairs committee involving new judges at the court of veterans claims. This issue is one that is pervasive and ongoing. And i want to ask perhaps first, mr. Foreman, if i may, thank you, along with the others for being here today and for your service. I appreciate you sharing your personal experience with us. I imagine its pretty frustrating to be here. Yes. You have shared you frequently donate to charities that actually support veterans. Unfortunately, this kind of scam is one of the most prevalent. If you had to advise your fellow veterans in identifying a legitimate Charity Versus a fraudulent one, what would be the signs that you would point out to them . Is there any way of telling . Not really. Longevity is what i used today. Those i know that have been around for, you know using names, american legion, vfw, uso, wounded warriors. Some of those that im familiar with. It could be an Outstanding Charity i never heard of, im not going to donate. Some of them are look alikes, right . Yes. Or sound alikes. Mr. Harris, can the va do more, in your experience to protect veterans . Thank you for the question, senator. Im incredibly thankful for what the va has done for me and other veterans over the years. Ive been a recipient of care at the va, ive had multiple procedures. We can always do more. Any Government Entity can find opportunity to do more. I appreciate any attention, guidance and oversight theyre given so they can optimize the way they watch out for, care for, and form empower and inspire veterans. But i guess i know that youre sympathetic to the va and so am i. Im wondering whether they devote enough resources to making veterans aware, alerting them and also reporting doing the kind of work that mr. Wells has been doing with his colleagues and fellow veterans. Should they be doing more . I cant speak as to all of their programs. I can say theyve been a good partner of the Inspection Service. Theyve allowed us to extend messaging through their podcast. Theyve allowed us to extend messaging on their blog. But i am not a subject Matter Expert on what they have in place as far as prevention programs besides the ones with which weve partnered with them. Let me just say, you know, the Postal Service and postal inspectors do kbrat work in this area. They are really unappreciated i think in a lot of what they do. People think of Law Enforcement as the fbi or the dea, but what i found as u. S. Attorney and attorney general was that the guys who really put these cases together are often postal inspectors and theyre able to track down some of the perpetrators of these frauds. So im hopeful that the va can take advantage of those skills and make use of it better. My time is expired, but i appreciate you being here today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Senator scott . I want to thank chairman collins and Ranking Member casey for putting this together. I think i served in the navy. I havent had a situation where they tried today scam me that i know of. If they have, i didnt know it. Who you think about is guys like my dad who served, had a sixth grade education and he never had any money and it would have been devastating to him if anything of this happened to him. I remember one time where someone came to buy one of his cars and never came back. He was a trusting person. He would have been an easy person to be a target. In 2018, the federal trade commission received three million fraud and Identity Theft complaints. I introduced them a bill thats called the Identity Theft victims protection act which is if youve been the victim rather than going on your record that they mess up your credit, it goes on the record of the person that did it to you. The va has a hotline to deal with it throughout theft. What else should we be doing with regard to Identity Theft . They should i think my dad you know, probably would have been a pretty easy target. Off the top of my head im not an expert on this, but i imagine if we had a system where Identity Theft for veterans rose to a higher level of prosecution, you know, to have it being something as maybe a protective class or a higher level. I think also protecting the veterans information and dissemination for information whether its through outreach, va or other systems. When you get out of the military, they want you to register for all these things. You kind of get in the mode of im going to put out a name and Social Security number and have an awareness or training at the end of the active duty Service Members enlistment. You know, maybe stop doing that. Very common to go to medical in the military and name and Social Security. So many introduce a little bit more awareness as these things are out there and to protect your own personal information. Mr. Foreman . Yes. I think one of the things is a failure to recognize that a lot of us veterans, especially from my era dont have computer, smartphones, we arent on facebook, arent on all the new things. Ive gone 21 years without a television. I have no computer in my house. And so i dont have all of this. I read the paper. I listen to the radio. Thats where i get my information, from magazines, newspaper, radio. So all of the efforts that are being done on these more modern fancy things, theyre going over my head. It wouldnt help you . Im sure theres a lot of you figure the homeless vets, you know, theyre missing out, too. Theres a lot of us older veterans that arent in the social media. I would think similar to what mr. Foreman said, its a matter of meeting those veterans or meeting those potential victims where you find them. As he stated, some may not use one type of media or may use another. Many of them may have been reached through mail. Where the Postal Service may get involved or whether maybe the va can get involved. Not only creating awareness of the potential scams. Because just there are scammers out there there are trying to reach potential victims, because especially with veterans, especially with our older population, if they have money, the scammers want that money. So and its a matter of finding and reaching those potential victims and veterans where you find them, and reaching out and raising awareness to them as far as what to look for. Because as the crimes often evolve, we also have to raise awareness and evolve the way that we create awareness to those potential victims. Mr. Harrison . I would echo what da richardson shared, enhanced education and awareness with the target audience and the veteran population. They have an incredible infrastructure to do this. They have facetoface time through all of the other activities that exist as part of what the department of Veterans Affairs is doing. Id say the opportunity exists, and i appreciate you asking that question. Thank you, chairman. Thank you very much. Senator sina ma. Thank you to our chair and lanking member in todays hearing on protecting our nation. Arizona has a long and proud tradition of military service. One in ten is a veteran and more than half are aged 65 and older. We owe them a deep debt of gratitude. Its horrible that scammers dlibrattly target veterans or take advantage of their desire to contribute to charitities. I story from arizona is jack holder, hes a world war ii veteran and a resident of sun lakes, arizona. He sur vied pearl harbor and fought overseas. But in 2016 he was targeted by criminal fraudsters in a sweepstakes scam. It robbed him of nearly his entire life savings. He watched his wife of nearly 70 years succumb to alzheimers but he describes realizing when he realized he had been the victim of a scam as the worst day. He shares hi story because he doesnt want this hatching to anyone else. Thats why ive made it my mission to protect. Last year i worked with chairman collins to pass the senior safe act which empowers Financial Institutions to report suspected instangss of elder financial abruce and fraud. Weve continued our work by introducing a force to protect seniors from financial crimes. And the antispoofing penalties modernization act which would increase penalties for criminals who use robo calls to harass seniors and veterans. Theres work to be done. My first question for inspector harris and d. A. Richardson, i shared the story of maggie whos elderly parents were robbed of their life savings. Maggies father is a veteran living with alzheimers and their family lost much of what they had saved. In cases like maggies family and jacks, are there ways to help people financially recover after theyve been robbed . Can they get help through military pension . Requiring restitution from the criminals . The tax code . If there arent ways, what barriers prevent them from getting some of their life savings back . Thank you for the question, senator. From the criminal standpoint, one of the barriers is being able to locate and try to secure those assets, in many instances these criminals are spending it just as they get it. In my case, paul sidney did this over a case of years and as she continued to scam different victims, some of them she used that money to pay benefits to pay other victims that she said they would receive money month to month. She scammed others in order to pay paul when she had stolen from him. If theres an avenue to allow prosecutors, well, to tie into resources of that defendant and be able to, theyre required to make payment but oftentimes we find its over a period of time, and they set a nominal fee and that family has lost thousands and millions of dollars. I would echo the same sentiments. The challenge we face in some of the investigations we conduct is that they have been burning through in a typical ponzi scheme where theyve spent what they had from before. So sometimes getting assets to recover they just dont exist. Theyve already been expended or distributed. In those cases its challenging. One thing i do feel compelled to share is through aarps fraugd watch network, families can reach out and get a live person that can help them navigate these circumstances. If they think they have a loved one whos being victimized, they can get a live person. The many people that work these lines have been involved in a scam or scheme before. They have a deep passion. Theyre not judgmental. They can help people. They can determine resources, determine which agencies to refer to, and help with level setting of financial status to get someone back on track in life. Thank you. Thank you, chairman. Thank you. Senator jill la brant, Perfect Timing there. Thank you, madam chairwoman and mr. Ranking member. Mr. Richardson, thank you for your important work to prosecute these scammers and bring justice to these victims of financial fraud. We know from your testimony how these scammers like to take their schemes across state lines so they are harder to track down. To you think we could be facilitating more between agencies . Yes, definitely so. Theres, as i tell everyone that i work with, theres always more that we can do. And in this particular instance, i received calls from other agencies that were conducting other investigations. Later on down the line, when my office was first contacted about the ward case, paul sidney had already been doing this for a number of years throughout the state of mississippi. And because was there no communication or no way for me to know in northern mississippi whats happening in southern mississippi, theres no way for me to bring awareness to my victims. Do you think we could centerlize some Services Like a National Data base, have Law Enforcement prosecutors bring these cases to justice . Do you think we should put resources behind that . I would think thank you for the question. I would definitely think that resources to provide awareness or to provide a centralized location for agencies or whether its providing more funding to one particular agency to provide that source. Because what we find is that the numbers are not going to stop. But if theres not communication between states, between local agencies within a state, then theres no way to stop those individuals. Because in this instance, once paul sidney was caught in mississippi and had been in jail and knew the convictions were coming, she moved to california. And it was only through the Postal Service that california stopped some of those. So mr. Harris, youve done great work with operation protect veterans to raise awareness. As a veteran and marine corps reservist yourself, you know how to communicate effectively about this complicated issue. But could you use some help . Do you think the federal government like the ftc could be doing more to listen to experts like you and to disseminate information regarding i will always welcome help. Our organization seeks to partner actively. Weve worked with other entities in the past and will continue do do so to the best of our ability. We believe in sharing information, deconflicting cases, using the whole of government approach, to bring the full bare of federal la in cooperation with state and local to get the best impact and find all the facts. What else can congress and the u. S. Government do to verify legitimate Charity Organizations against fraud lents ones . What role should the government play to make sure the creditability is maintained and individuals who want to contribute can do so with full confidence that theyre not being scammed . Im aware the department of Veterans Affairs list they maintain to determine what is a Good Charitable organization. I do not know how they adjudicate that list. I welcome support given to them to make sure that anyone whos interacting with a veteran is not doing so with a nefarious purpose. Thank you. Mr. Wells, thank you for coming to share your important story about how to prevent these scams before they happen. Does the federal government need to step up and do more to provide resources to org zblaigzed to carry out Fraud Prevention services to protect older citizens . Abslooults. Its just gotten a 503 status. Its run by one fulltime and one parttime staffer. They manage and org zblooiz 60 volunteers and have 100 interactions. That is a drop in the bucket for how many veterans that are in just the state of maine and as we talked about in other states. I think anybody who has the funding, ability and resources could make that more robust. I was very moved by mr. Foremans story. Mr. Richardson, what are the experiences of victims after a scam . And what options do they have for justice . Could a victim be able to get their money back . Who can they turn to for help . Well, in every instance they need to report to Law Enforcement. But the question of whether or not they get their money back, its a sad conversation to have, but in each and every one that ive had whether its my victim or victims in other case the same case throughout the state, they knew they werent going to get the money back. The harsh reality is i couldnt find the words to say, its not going to happen. You wont. But they can get some sense of justice. And the victims ive spoken with after the case is over, all many of them wanted was to receive some of their familys benefits back because they lost everything and knew they werent going to get it back. Thank you. Senator rosen. Thank you, madam chair and Ranking Member for always bringing such thoughtful hearings here. I real appreciate the work you are all doing. I am so sorry you are a victim and thankful you are here to illuminate this for others. I represent nevada and we are home to over 220,000 veterans and nearly 20,000 Service Members. According to the Attorney Generals Office, the most common scams affecting our Service Members, people were speaking about, this fradlent mortgage relief forms, high interest loan scams and Identity Theft. In fact its such a problem, nevada is one of the top three states in the nation per capita of reported Identity Theft. So veterans in my state who experience scams or fraud can turn to the Attorney Generals Office of military legal assistants which provide them free Legal Assistance and representation and the olma is doing excellent work to try to protect our veterans who have sacrificed like you all to protect us. But in my state we also have the nevada senior medicare patrol program. It routinely has a presence at Community Events and health fairs geared towards veterans. We just had our third extrav ganza in pa rump. Theyre filled with all kinds of information for veterans. The hart working volunteers, they try to educate and empower older veterans about medicare, medicaid, fraud, best practices, so on and so forth. And so mr. Wells, would you please talk about the training that your volunteers at the vet to vets in maine get in order to identify and target these scams . So when theyre out at these Community Events that happen all across the country are more able to discuss this. Part of what we were given training on, how do identify and protect personal information, pii, just the general sort of rules of dont give out your Social Security number, be wary be anybody asking you to open Checking Accounts or for services. We were also given awareness of the legitimate services that do exist that can provide benefits, how to identify those, what the need is. I think thats an important part. If somebody knows theres an organization that can direct you, thats going to curb a lot of this, at least in my case, the looking for other organizations or potentially fraudulent organizations. I think that your organization does a great job, and i hope that we could find a way to package your training and export that to communities across the country, who could really benefit from this. One of the other questions that i really have also in the training is, how do when senior centers, churches or sinna gogzor Just Community centers have these events for veteransor seniors, how do they know, how can we help them best vet as organizers, people who are coming and showing up and paying for a booth at one of these veterans fairs or seniors fairs that again happen all across the country . And anyone have an idea about that . Best practice perhaps . Yeah, i can help a little bit. I would say having a centerlized data base. I know theres work being done at the v. A. In ours if you were to contact the coordinators theres a social worker on staff that periodically updates her list and the pro sure list of active organizations that shes made referrals to and can say as as a matter of fact that this charitable organization, does the work, good work or bad work, and can give you insight own that. Thats just a single office. I wonder if we need Something Like the Better Business bureau, that these are the certified places that, if youre going plan to have an event like at your church or community center, senior center, these are the ones that get the stamp of approval and maybe theres a central way we could check across the country to avoid people being targeted right in their home area. Thank you. Thank you, senator. I think you bring up a very good point. If you go to a fair a Veterans Services and see a booth there, youre going to assume that someone screened it, that its legitimate. And with all the sound alike charities and all the needs out there, and the generosity that people feel towards the veterans that population, to one another, its easy to see how these scams succeed. I think your point is a good one. Da richardson, i want to ask you my final question of this hearing. First of all, you deserve great praise and credit for putting the notorious con artist tam me palla sini behind bars. That was a great win. I know you had to deal with california as well, and it was a complex case. And im grateful to you and your Office Manager for not giving up and for the Critical Role that you played in tracking her down and bringing her to justice. It is discouraging to know that none of the victims have been repaid any significant restitution. And many of them lost their familys entire life savings through this totally unskrooupulous individual. Im also concerned to learn that it could be miss palacini will be released as early as june of next year, having served only a praction of the 20 years that she was sentenced both with the state and federal charges against her, which run concurrently. And that makes me wonder whether we need to look at the punishments and penalties for this kind of fraud. Do you have any advice for us . I would. And i do. And thank you, chairman collins. In this case, if you look at it, yes, she was sentenced to 20 years to serve on three different counties in mississippi. One county ten years, one county seven years, my county three years. I wanted to make sure that our sentence was the last one and ran after the rest of them, because we noticed the magnitude of the crimes that she committed against our elderly and veterans. But the harsh reality is that in mississippi for a nonviolent offense youre only required to serve 25 of your time and you can also receive other trusty status to get time knocked off. For our victims that is what theyre age rengriest about. They cant imagine how they can get pa rolled after what shes done and hasnt paid us a cent. In the case of wayne county theres a baptist minister who practiced for 25 years, brother wright. We in working on our war case we noticed through facebook and Found Communications about the wright family, and their Facebook Page was brother bobby wright, be his voice. And that case paulacini took his and his brotherinlaws entire life savings. Thats the only case ive seen she paid restitution and thats because she paid an initial sum of 20,000 when she plead guilty. She still owed a debt of 209,000. That theyll never see. Hes currently in a nursing home suffering from alzheimers. And what can be and should be done, in mississippi and on the federal level, i dont know if its the case, but theres enhanced punishments for crimes against the elderly, but thats only on violent offenses. What i would recommend and support, if theres some type of enhancement to crimes when youre dealing with elderly victims in all cases or veterans in all cases, and maybe theres some type of mandatory sentencing when youre looking at the financial burden thats impoeszed on those victims, maybe its a graduated scale. Because in this instance, over 2. 5 million was totally ordered in restitution. And i can assure you that there are still victims out there. If we put out a Public Service notice and ask for anyone to call us about any crimes about paulacini, we will find other victims. If there was something to be sure she was held accountable or scammers like her are, and not only receive the same penalty as the average person that committed a nonviolent offense, but its a different problem when youre scamming and youre taking away the life savings of our veterans and elderly and so something to hold them accountable. Thank you. Thank you so much for that recommendation. She clearly is a criminal without any conscience at all. And essentially in some cases seemed to be running a pyramid scheme. And what is so tragic about this is when the victims are elderly, theres no way for them to recoup that money. They need that money at a very vulnerable time in their lives, such as the gentleman that you mentioned with alzheimers whos in a nursing home. So weve got longterm care costs. Its just it just seems so wrong that there isnt some sort of consideration or enhanced penalty when the victims are not receiving restitution, they are older americans, and theyve served their country. It seems that there should be some sort of additional penalty that the judge would at least have the discretion to impose. Yes. And whats most disheartening in this case is that paulacini, and as i looked at her status in the bureau of prisons her release date has been moved out. Now its in 2020. We spent just as much if not more time tracking her down and having her brought back to mississippi and brought back to justice as she would have probably served in custody. Thats not fair to our victims. I totally agree with you, and that is a very good summary of what is wrong. Thank you. Senator carey. Just want to put something on the record as we conclude. We made reference to the letter that were sending to the va, addressed to the honorable Robert Wilkie who is a secretary of the Veterans Administration. I wanted to put on the record, because its not something were doing as a routine matter. Heres the progression of facts and information. Aarp, i think i erroneously said before it was the gao aarp said nearly quote, 80 of veterans have reported being targeted by a scam related to the veteran status. Point number two, gao in this report in october of this year made a number of findings. But heres the basis of the the crux of the findings. They say the va receives reports of potential fraud and exploitation, but and heres the problem, the agency does not centrally collect or analyze the information to number one, assess the prevalence of the scams, number two, to outreach efforts, or number three, help large pursue scrammers. So the gao sends the findings to the va. The vas response in part was recommending that an alternative approach be pursued that would be a referral process to the federal trade commission. The reason why virtually every member of the committee signed our letter to the va is because we all concluded, not good enough, va. We dont just criticize them on a regular basis, but when the va responds to a gao report like that and suggests some other agency should be taking the full measure of responsibility for it, we had to send it. We had no choice. Just for the record, heres what were asking the va. Not tough questions but important ones. Basically five questions. Number one, has the va examined the extent to which americas veterans have been victimized by this type of scam . Number two, how is the va working with federal and state agencies and stakeholder groups to protect veterans . Number three, what has the va done to educate veterans . Very important that they do that. Number four, how will the vas proposed response in response to gaos recommendation proer vied the ability to assess the prevalence of scams and to out reach and education . I think its a very reasonable question. Number five, what plans does the va have to increase these efforts . What further legislative or Regulatory Authority does the va need to do so . I think reasonable questions. If the va comes back and says, you the Congress Needs to give us more authority, we should work on that. If they say you should give us more appropriations, well work on that. But the response to say, this is a job for the federal trade commission or some other agency just isnt good enough. So thats why theyre getting a letter. And we dont always agree on everything around here but we agree on this. Madam chair, thanks for the time for that. Thank you very much. And you know that i totally agree with you that the va could do more in this area. Just because theyre a Central Point of contact for so many veterans. And i know i said id asked my last question, but mr. Harris just a quick one for you. This excellent pbrochure that te Postal Service has collaborated with aarp on, is this also in addition to being in post office lobbies, is it also at va clinics and hospitals and sea box, Community Veterans centers . Thank you for that question, chairman collins. Weve been in consultation seeking to get distribution through their network. To date we havent. Well follow up on that, because a lot of veterans have contact with the va and with Community Based clinics. And this would be a great publication for them to pick up. So thank you for your good work. I want to thank all of our witnesses for their contributions to our hearing today. As we have heard, americans, veterans are now im not going to call them conartists. Lets call them what they are, they are criminals who are seeking to steal the life savings from our veterans, from those who have done their part and served our country. And to profit from their personal information as well. Sometimes these criminals seek to perpetuate the same scams that weve examined many times but even more insidious, oftentimes these criminals are targeting our veterans with the kinds of schemes that weve heard described today. And weve learned that there are many ways to fight these schemes that are targeting our veterans. Operation protect veterans seeks to prevent scams through education. Vet to vet in maine uses camaraderie between veterans as a way to fight back. Veterans like mr. Foreman who are also on the lookout for their fellow veterans and inspector harris as well, also play an important role. And of course theres no substitute for the kind of persistence that d. A. Richardson and his staff demonstrated in tracking down and prosecuting these criminals. Like senator casey, i want the va to step up its game as well and assist us in protecting our veterans. I am very appreciative of your all being here today. Committee members will have until friday, november 15th, to submit questions for the record. And i will turn to senator casey for any final comments. Chairman collins, thank you for holding this very, very important hearing today. In my second line of my Closing Remarks i cross the out scammers and conartists and put criminals. So im going to read it as she suggested. The criminals, because thats the right word, they are the worst kind. I said it in earlier, theyre the scum of the earth. I dont know what more i can say. Theyre just so many ways to describe how bad they are. After a commitment to serve our country and defend our freedom, veterans should not have to fear answering the phone or being confronted by perpetrators of fraud. No one should, veteran or not. As i said to laverne earlier, im not a veteran but i would have sent the 25 and the 35 or the 20 then the 25 and the 35. I think a lot of people would. This committee has consistently worked to combat frauds and scams and will continue to do so. But i am pleased that we held this hearing today ahead of the veterans day holiday coming up next week. The criminals perpetrating these will undoubtedly double down in the coming days, which means those of us trying to prevent them from being successful must also double down. And i hope the va will do that as well. I want to thank the chairman again for her willingness to have this hearing and thank you to each and every one of our witnesses for being here today. And of course thank you to our veterans for what they have contributed to our country and well say happy veterans day early. Thank you very much. As the daughter of a world war ii veteran who was wounded twice in the battle of the bulge, this is an issue that matters greatly to me as well. Im sure well continue our efforts to combat it as i know our witnesses will. Thank you all for being here. This hearing is now adjourned. President trump is scheduled to give remarks today regarding his judicial nominations and the associated confirmation process. Thats scheduled for 3 00 p. M. Live. Listen live with the free cspan radio app. Today President Trump holds a Campaign Rally in monroe, louisiana. Watch live on cspan, online, or listen live with the radio app. Campaign 2020, watch our live coverage of the president ial candidates on the campaign trail and make up your own mind. Cspans campaign 2020, your unfiltered view of politics. Up next, a look into legislative proposalls related to outdoor reclational use of federal lands. Officials from the u. S. Forest service and the interior department along with representatives talk about the impact of outdoor reclation on local economies and efforts to streamline the permitting process for the use of public lands. Morning, everyone. Committee will come to order. Happy halloween. Happy world series. Everybody stayed up late watching the game. Yeah