Transcripts For CSPAN3 Revisiting Early America 20240713

Of our programming season for the Academic Year of 2019 and 2020. My name is jason steinhauer. Im director of the Lepage Center at villanova, a relatively new center created in 2016. It opened its doors in 2017. Our mission is to bring history to bear on contemporary issues. That is what we do all yearround. Some of the issues we have examined in the past have been the issue of fake news and historical perspective, stuff on endless war. Last year we did a series on democracy and the history of democracy and credit participation. Democratic process evasion. This year is revisionist history. We will talk about that over six events and through the lens of various topics revising early america. Before i go further i want to make you aware it is being filmed both by the university and by cspans American History tv. This event will be on cspans Video Library and a couple of weeks. We are not going live, dont worry. For the benefit of the cspan viewers in the future, we are glad you were with us here and we hope you will stay in touch with us and learn more about us moving forward. Begin thei might conversation, both with our panelists on stage and other panelist joining us midway through a conversation and with you the audience. I might begin with an informal audience poll. Our theme for the year is revisionist history. It struck me thinking about this event it might be worth getting a sense of what you all think revisionist history is. Im curious. When you hear the term revisionist history, who thinks that term has negative connotations . A few people. Term hasves the positive connotations . Who believes the term is meaningless and is completely irrelevant . [laughter] a few people. Excellent. It is interesting because our centers mission is to bring history to bare on contemporary issues. Its interesting because if you look at contemporary culture, you will find references to revisionist history in many places. I thought i would share a couple of them for our conversation. Conway named kellyanne anyone heard of her . She had a quote where she said mr. Comey has a revisionist view of history. She was using it with a negative connotation. Blogger named Diane Anderson recently its a complicated story but on the anniversary of 9 11, she tweeted out some examples of hate crimes that happened in the United States after 9 11. , want to knowt why i tweeted what i did about hate crimes . This is the revisionist history. This that she was referring to is talking about a talking unitedat after 9 11 United States with total unified. Thisis interesting is that term of revisionist history can sometimes be a shorthand for a version of events that i dont like or i dont agree with, or maybe a connotation that i have the right version of the facts and someone else is revising. Sometimes it can apply the story is closed. The case is closed in a particular issue. We know with certainty what happened and someone else is coming in and revising it. Suggest for like to our series this year, and i hope you are with us for all six events, is we probe this question. What is revisionist history . Maybe we can even reclaim revisionism from its designation as a four letter word in certain circles. But we would like to suggest is that history and historical scholarship by its nature relies on revision. There are new sources from which we can mine historical data. New scholars bring new ideas. There are new events. There are always new things we can learn about the past. There always new ways to think about the past and relate the past to the present. I think we will grapple with some of these questions throughout the series. Throughout the series you will meet scholars Whose Research and ares have revised understandings of some key moments, key topics, and have offered fresh perspectives and done interesting things to help us figure out what happened and why it matters for us today. Tonight you will meet three of those scholars, and a fourth one who will be called up about midway through the program. I will introduce them briefly. When you walked in on the screen hopefully you saw the full bios and the head shots. Our custom here is not to print out hundreds of paper programs that end up in the recycling bin and go through reams of paper and lots of ink. We invite you to use your phones, which are on silent, to look up online more information about the scholars we have. They are exceptional scholars, exceptional human beings as well. Annato me is on lucia. Wolfe. Meade from the museum of the macon revolution. American revolution. I would like to start with you. How many of you are aware of the 1619 . Ersary of the that is where we will start our conversation. People familiar with the New York Times project on 1619 . This has been an interesting cultural moment thinking about 1619, the 400th anniversary. The question of where it American History begin. Who are the principal actors . I wanted to maybe start with you and actually, what do we know about what happened in 1619 . About is theow first arrival of enslaved africans in the colony of virginia. This is not the first africans to arrive in the region that is presentday United States. We know there were africans, people of african dissent byving living in virginia 1619. Just a few much before the arrival of these first documented groups. We know they were black people, people of african dissent living in virginia. Know thatn to that we 1526 we had enslaved africans who went to the region that is presently south carolina. In 1616, the on british colony of bermuda. Athad enslaved africans english colonies in the caribbean as well. How can i say that . If we expand what we understand as the United States, there were africans either enslaved and those who are not enslaved who arrived, for example, in the americas much earlier than at least one century earlier either in the region that is presently caribbean and florida. There were africans who ofticipated in the conquest what is presentday latin america. We have the case that is well who came with the spanish and is a man who participated in the conquest of mexico, then moved to the caribbean. He also ended up in florida. That wea marker historians select facts. We select sources as well. Selection we need landmarks. Momentcame a symbolic that allows us to commemorate in the present the presence of enslaved africans and the birth of slavery then in north america. Indeed, slavery and the slave trade were going on for more than a century at that moment. Another element i think is important for us to have in mind is the United States, what became the United States already inthat time was not working isolation of what was happening in the rest of the atlantic world. Africans brought to virginia in 1619 were captured in West Central Africa. We believe they came from the region that is the kingdom of ndongu, presentday angola. They were on a portuguese slave ship. Ie talking to a person come from brazil originally. A country colonized by the portuguese. Brazil is the country that imported a large number of enslaved africans. Brazil in theory has nothing to do with United States, but those first africans that came to 1619 were originally transported by the portuguese. Bitingip was attacked was privateer by an english privateer. These stories are all connected. I think this is what 1619 can tell us. It is the birth of the u. S. History is the birth perhaps of the history of slavery in the United States. This history is not happening in isolation and is not disconnected to what was going on in africa, but was going on in the caribbean, and brazil and in europe as well. I think one of the interesting revisions to understanding early america that has sort of been part of the historiography is the notion of the internet connect this interconnectedness and vast expansiveness of the International Slave trade. Maybe you could talk about how have historians been able to recreate and retrace the extent of the slave trade. Maybe you have numbers or statistics about how widespread it was. Efforts in order to quantify how many people were in West Central Africa from the time of the slave tried, where they left, where they arrived, having survived the passage, how many died after disembarking. I would say one of the important achievements historians did, and something each one of you can accept going to the internet is the Transatlantic Slave Trade database. Acceptthe address is slavevoyag. It is online and you can have the numbers and all the voyages. They are estimated as well. This experience you are referring to in 1619 and this experience of enslavement and the legacy of that cannot be , butrized to this number the arrival of these enslaved in 1619 isd 6 documented in the slave database. It is something accessible to all of us. Nearly 12 million enslaved africans were embarked ina mille embarking africa during the mid atlantic slave trade, and effectively arrived alive in the americas. We know that brazil for example thehe country that imported largest number of enslaved africans, nearly 5 million, and 5 million is more than seven times the number that were brought to this country during the slave trade. The majority of those who are brought to the americas, they were brought to the caribbean, latin america, and United States. Slavelking about the project, it is a project that was born in the early 1990s during that period that it was just to the recent and of the cold war, and it was part of it happened in the context of commemoration like this year is 2019 because my 1992, when you had the anniversary then, the arrival of columbus in the americas and 1492, and 1992, there was this need of perhaps telling the history of the atlantic slave trade and something that was crucial to construct what the americas were. Presentthis need in the to then choose this date in order to be able to engage with this past, a past that sometimes we do not know very well, but whose legacies are very present. Of coping with this past is sometimes, taking the opportunity for those that are there and embrace them to tell the story that perhaps can explain the inequalities that we andl see in the present, especially in this case, the racial inequalities and then racism is something that is born atlantic slave trade and slavery is an institution that existed for many centuries in different societies including the native american societies, africa as well, but slave racism as we know today is something that emerged with the atlantic slave trade, but those targeted were not necessarily people of african descent. I think the understanding that is very important for us. Really quick before i bring karen into the conversation, part of what gets revised through scholarship is also the language. Versus note of slave slave, and why the story does revise that language. The issue of revising the language is an issue of respect with people who are descendents these atrocities, and are still among us. Another element is to also not treat those who are victims of the atlantic slave trade as the mere objects or evict dems. People of african dissent african dissent, they resisted, they did wonderful things as well, and to use certain terms as a slave, perhaps, reduces this individuals to the mention of camaraderie and using certain terms such as enslaved can perhaps put more emphasis than on the process that led to these people who were born free like all of us and who at some point at their lives, ended up being in a situation that they were caught as prisoners of war and war deported else were deported elsewhere. Just changing the language is not something that is enough, but i think that leads us to think about the past and think also about the present and the alternatives that these individuals were able to construct during the period they were alive. Jason thank you. Karen, i wanted to bring you into the conversation that. Did anybody see the Philadelphia Inquirer over the weekend . The sunday addition where are toelists were, and im going ask you this question flippantly, but do we have an east coast bias when we think about early america . Are we leaving out of that continent of experiences . Karen that is more than a softball. Gosh, jason, yes, we do. [laughter] karen thank you so much. It is great to be here and want to fall to be on this panel, and also i want to Say Something about revisionist history and then i will swing at that volleyball. The point about revisionism is that it is a recognition of how powerful history is and how powerfully it works in our lives all the time. That is literally when we decide to make a decision to go to the Grocery Store, we do that on the basis of our own historical experience that the Grocery Store will be there and likely have things that we want to purchase. It is also working on the biggest decisions we make about our lives and futures. History is extraordinarily powerful and how we narrate the past is powerful. When we do not like the way that someone has narrated the past, or we wish to narrated differently, there is a contest. There is a conflict over that, and i think the idea of revisionism recognizes how powerful history is an ana touched on that and a variety of her comments. One of our colleagues and the , he likes to say, everyone likes revisionist medicine. And we do. Y, like medicine, actually evolves with information, perspective with discovery, history is not just sitting in a Kitchen Cabinet waiting for us to open that cabin and see what is there. Methodologies,ng theories, and new materials to bear on our analogies of what existed in the past. Anyway. It is true that absolutely, when we think about early america, the strongest, longest, dominant narrative of early america is an east coast one. Most, i will not say all of you had exactly my experience growing up in the u. S. , but many children growing up in the u. S. Have the experience of learning about American History that began either in ridging yet, if you are from virginia, either in virginia, or in massachusetts , but a very powerful east coast story. People here in the great commonwealth up in savannah like to talk about the importance of philadelphia to the early american story, but the reason why we do that is a focused heavily on english colonization. We focus on english colonization because it was the english colonies, not all the english colonies because jamaica did not rebel and join the United States, but it is the english colonies in mainland north america that revolted and formed the United States, and to us, that seems like a ton of foundational american story, so we look to those english colonies entered that tradition of lawn governance that frames the United States, and we see that as the key originating moment. East coast bias, and my argument, but the intensive of executive and intensive scholarship by historians all around the world to see that the american story is more than that beginning in english colonies. If we think about what forms america now, it is not all rooted in a beginning and plymouth, people in north dakota have an early american past, also. And that counts, too. That counts in washington states, and those early american pasts are just as foundational. That may seem counterintuitive because you think, what is it that happen in the pacific northwest, 17th century that forms what happens with us today. How is it that we have a constitution, for example, that how it is government, that frame what happened in washington state. Those deep histories, those deep histories of native americans and the native people who are powerfully important. Native means native. It is native territory. Verye americans and a important history of slavery, but also, really powerfully across north america, the native history that was foundational history,g american what happened when angloamericans arrived. In california, those Anglo American histories do not arrive until the 19th century and later, and we think about places like texas that have Anglo American histories of law that our lead over longstanding native and Spanish Colonial traditions that in fact, an independent to republic of texas and so on and so on. And createdriched our nation, and what happens when we begin on the east coast and only incorporate places into the american story as the united thats formally claims territory, we miss the richness from theory americn territory. Thanks for the volleyball. [laughter] jason i think you spiked it over the nets. Youve talked about the geography, but this also implies a different cast of characters as well. In particular, i know your work is focused on women, at least year scholarship, women in philadelphia. Earlythink about the american past, the early american story being formative, what roles that the other groups thing specific and concrete that will change the way we look at it . It is true that my own work is focused on women in , and imerican and native think those women contributed really powerfully to the American Revolution and beyond, but lets take that little bit further and say, what about the broad geography i was talking about, what changes when we not only say, well the american story primarily is really only two the 19th century and a native story. What does it mean to say that native american women are incredibly powerfully important in the native american story . There are women that are doing wonderfully rich work to show how a native american women to diplomacy, and agriculturalists shape the Nations Society that were in conflict and collaboration with each other and in conflict in collaboration with european society. This is entering up to the north america and expanding. Thatnk they are our ways we can think about women in every context, and every Demographic Group for every 50 of the population. Well said. [laughter] now. Ts bring you in Revolution Museum . The privilege to go, maybe a couple of months ago, you know im going to change mine i was really struck by the exhibition that you guys put together and particularly, how the exhibition that you guys put together in 2017 probably would have looked very different in 1990 7, 1987, our 1997. Stumbled upon your thesis from harvard and your work on soldiers during the American Revolution, and found that to be an interesting revision to understanding the revolutionary period and the experience of being part of that generation. I wanted to put you on the spot a little bit to talk about that. And maybe you could tell our audience a little bit after the thesis and what argument you have put forth. Blast from the past. [laughter] sure. Whichk well, my thesis was called melancholy landscapes, writing warfare and revolution in america, looked at diarists from the revolutionary , and i started the project looking for the politics, the political ideology , figuring that they have made a commitment to the independence of the United States or early in liberties as they often put it, but i found that the most part, they started talking about roads in the mud, and houses, and who gave them a barn to sleep in and whether they are was a town clock. Whether places smelled bad or good, and whether people were attractive there, and whether there was intermixing of people from different backgrounds, racial identities, different ethnicities, and whether there was a town center and whether there was slavery how dominant slavery was, and whether the enslaved people seemed to be addressed or not and whether they seem to be hungry. There wasntif politics that they were trying to fit these complicated intosments of communities some kind of rubric of whether or not having a town clock meant you were likely to be revolutionary or a tory, it generally worked as you might selffulfilling way iere they would decide that, am a gentleman, so therefore, other gentlemen are likely to have revolutionary ideas, and this town must have revolutionary ideas because it has a nice clock in it, and conversely, common, ordinary soldiers who in the 18 century were both exempt from the code of honor, so they did not have to duel generally and they did not have the obligations of their word in the same way as their officers, but also generally did not have access to the claims of gentility. Convergence, that landscapetriotic and refinement claiming their own gentility. If february we go that has gentlemen and ladies is a revolutionary, then i am a revolutionary, then i must be a gentleman. So they bring this attitude back with them to their Home Communities and find it causes great strife with their socalled betters. And particularly, one for example, there is one soldier who served five years in the army, he comes back home, and he has a conflict with the man he is working for on a shortterm, labor basis over six months of whether he gets paid for his date of arrival or not. He finally tells them, i have been around the world and a gentlemans company, i know what handsome behavior is, and so one of the things that i found that they were trying to create the country while describing its, there was an effort going on. When a lot of historians previously had described as plagiarism was in fact, a common manuscript community on foot traveling around trying to figure it out and share their thoughts. Sometimes they were trying to protect each other from accusations of misbehavior while and most, significantly perhaps, the largest correction of diaries in one Single Campaign was probably the most ignored campaign in the revolutionary war because it later came to violate or confront americans with an unpleasant reality that the with land really did acquisition, the removal of native people. Campaign withhe 4000 soldiers and 50 diaries surviving. Exts were sharing their t and creating a narrative that argued these people that they had much more elaborate and agricultural landscapes than they expected, and that was evidence that whites loyalists had been among them building that stuff for them. There were people that had those elements of their societies for thousands of years in many a british officer described general sullivans own account to which consolidated a lot of these as the most ridiculous statement of demonic peregrination, that since lord a falsified account of the early travel period, and his description of houses where we know only wigwams could be, he said, was an hourly demonstration of his own selfaggrandizing. Werehou re were houses there, but they are in a conversation about what the country could be an slavery, they go home with these ideas about regions that are in conflict with their notion of what America Needs to be. From thete soldier fifth connecticut regiment from waterbury, connecticut who died during the Yorktown Campaign compiled his diaries as a farewell letter to his distant wife, wrote when he reached washingtonsthat enslaved people were largely naked and he said, what is this hypocrisy spoken among the prophets that the defender of liberty would be a keeper of slaves. This is from one of washingtons own enlisted shoulders soldiers. One of the things that reinforced with me is a couple of things. The revolutionaries were themselves, revisionists. They were creating a narrative of the American Revolution itself. We all do this, as karin points out about Grocery Stores, there are degrees of deliberateness which you might seek to record that and make the interpretation permanent or widespread in your community, which is part of why revisionism over the Grocery Store is a different political historians writing or politicians using history, for example. Debatedlutionaries further whole lifetimes about what the American Revolution was. One of the things we faced in one of the things we decided in creating the museum of the American Revolution, which was the first real attempt at its outset and inception to create a National Scale museum of the American Revolution, and we asked ourselves, why was that and why has that not happen before and the answer is partly because the revolutionaries did not agree even on what the American Revolution was. And the minds and hearts of the people, it was a change in their moral sentiments. 15 it was affected, years before the war commenced. 1775 andommenced in adams said the revolution being affected and essentially completed by 1760. Benjamin rush, a philadelphia revolutionary and doctor wrote in 1787, again, that it is often let people conflate the revolutionary war and the American Revolution. Revolutionary war is over and the American Revolution has just begun and only the first act. It remains to change our government and the moral sustain this radical experiment in political history, world history. Twoave these revolutionaries and one of the things that the revolution is basically over by 1760 and the other does not think it has begun by 1787. They both lived through it and why not. , eight years that neither of them think is really the revolution. A couple of propositions that we felt was an important and developing the museum, which is in old city, philadelphia and which opened on april 19, 2017. We do like our commemorative dates. That is the anniversary of the beginning of the revolutionary war in 1775. Were many revolutions in revolutionary america. Representted to those. All revolutions were supportive of the creation of the United States. The majority of native peoples sided with the british. Many of them attempt to avoid siding with either side for as long as they could. But when pressed, the british seemed like the better bet for the guarantee of their for the hope to contain the reverse meant if the transformations had been underway since contacts, and why not . 1763sh had established in a line of limiting settlement west in the proclamation line. It was not effective, but at least it was a gesture. The american seem to have no such scruples about that. The majority of enslaved people, people who are, i think we would agree, whatever their attitudes and ideologies and the roots of ofm and the challenge finding those and the struggle record is very difficult, but whatever they are, they are freedom. Heir personal the majority of people of anican descent who choose army to align themselves to join the British Forces as much as about 30,000 where as 5000 in the american forces, and also, that the revolution nevertheless is important that the revolution create a nation in which the words of the declaration of independence that those second tied toh promise were the existential and the existence of the nation itself. In these very radical and strange ideas of the time and that that ram fis out, and it makes the revolution bigger than the period of the or benjamin adams, rush described and one that is ongoing. Jason that is very well reflect it in the exhibition and museum that you and your team have put together and should be commended for. A common themet amongst the three of you which is this sort of history from below, and sort of widening the scope of the early american story to include the common soldier at yorktown, the women and native americans, the enslaved populations to make sure that they are edited and grand, as opposed to a sweeping narrative that only looks at a certain percentage of the population. That is sort of reflective of where that history profession itself has revised and evolved itself over the last generation. Karin yes. [laughter] karin it is not just historians. This is what we are all doing, right . More people, more communities are empowered to investigate the wages. Org,e slave databases like that that make primary source available to all of us so the kinds of work that juste can do, so it is not what we are sort of freakish, cultish historians jason which you are all now welcome to be a part of. Karin we are just of what is happening more widely that this sense of this nations history is not the history of elites, but a collective communal commitment. Ana i would like to add that the work that the historians we do is not white ordinary in different communities, they have been pushing us to do. Many of these discussions that we had before for example to create a museum that deals with the spirit of the American Revolution from a certain point creation of the museum of the national africanAmerican History and culture in washington dc also approaches the American Revolution. The database and itself can be perceived as something that is very cold because it deals with enslaved people as numbers. But we had also the community whops with social actors have been claiming to be included in the histories that the work for the narrative provided by historians has changed over this last decade is also the result of the public debate. And a special number of the new this was an initiative then by intellectuals, journalists, but not necessarily led by historians, and journalists have been using the work, there are also historians like us, engaged with the public in an Initiative Like this in a museum, we also do a lot on social media. For the first time, in a year, frome know each other social media for a while. It is a nice way also to engage with the community and to have these conversations that we would not have otherwise because we would not have the means to reach these wider audiences. I think this is crucial for the work that we do with the need to engage with the public that as common decades ago. I think we are still doing that. Lastomething we talk about year, a notion of democracy being an unfinished project that one strives for but never reaches. In some way, there are questions about who is part of the early american story, how expensive is it . Does it extend beyond the oceans we call our borders . Doe does it include does it include other places and people . It is important to get the voices in the room and create the country itself. Is that something you feel is an accurate description . Phil one of the consequences of the revolutionaries are revising their own story as they made it remote, inaccessible, stony, marbleized, inhuman, her heroic, or demonic, as one british commentator says. But not bloody, fleshy, life, people and not whether lead you into a barn. I think that has made our history remote. Our history is a vital part of our civic welfare as a nation and as a world community. A vital part of understanding of how we make decisions, and have made decisions, and how we might to eye, i see eye have the wisdom to see change and continuity. I think the revolutionaries, particularly in their later years, for example, had unleashed something they did not anticipate in a lot of different ways, and they were trying to contain it a little by recasting the revolutionary past. I think what we need to do is in some ways pull the veneer they andd useful in their time use it in hours. It is understood to be iconoclastic, but it is important for everyone to invest in our shared story, unless it is shared with everyone. , for lackat is a key of a better word, and patriotic feeling. I think one thing that we need to put phil i think one thing we need to put on the table, which all of you have looked at in your work, the early american story is violent. Bloodshed, and only includes individuals who have suffered. I think that can make people uncomfortable to confront that, to talk about it, and to equate that as being part of the american story, but i think you each have done in your own words some Important Development of that, and i wanted to start with and feel, asarin, well, but how do we incorporate that into the story and sort of this creating the country while describing it . Ana lucia first of all, this andory of violence, violence marks the creation of what we call the americas at isge, i dont think violence some kind of specific feature of itself, andtates that all the countries in the americas were marked by genocide , then the extermination and womence against women, who are raped during this process of conquest and thenization, and it forces enslavement of africans, and during the same period of indentured servants who were not enslaved, but in many cases had them living and working conditions that were also very difficult, and of course, that all these wars of independence are in some places where we dont have them, for example, brazil. In the United States, we had this led shed, and it still is thatthe independence slavery continues to be there, even in the slave trade to the abolished. Es after that, we know there is a trait that continues to happen and an internal slave trade that is as brutal that included the passage. I think in history, we are the product of this violence. It is important we recognize that. Termso be able to come to , and also in order to be able to not perhaps construct a history that stands to glorify individuals. Usually great men. And usually great women are not included, and people of color are not included. I think alltime, the initiatives we are referring to, the work that has been done and also in the institute of the American Revolution, i believe it is work that we do, the product of this history, as well as slavery. I think what we are trying to do is in many ways come to terms with this history that evolves with violence. And violence is part of the experience as human beings in this attempt to live together and is very often hard to achieve, but i think this is what we are trying to do. As historians, by understanding this difficult path, perhaps it can help us to deal with the problems that persist in the present. Look, i think early American History, with no disrespect to the other five we cover in this series, it is the most important, actually. It is the most important for thinking about democracy and for what is powerfully shaping our experience. Now, and our parentss experience, and in our children and grandchildrens experience. I cannot think how many times you have heard, i have heard people talk about our heritage as americans. Our early american past. Andamerican principles values. That notion of an early america that is sealed off, and you think of it as this kind of glorious, shiny thing. Theften talk about how United States doesnt live up to its values. No, actually, i think when we thishis historical path, past early america, we see this was a struggle. It was violent, letty, frankly violence, not pretty, frankly pretty smelly, too, and it is something we struggle for every single day. It is not something handed to us. It is not a gift that we get that we carefully tended and then pass on, it is something we struggle for and will have to keep struggling for. Powerful, and it is so powerful because it tells we work, ande we where we will be next. I personally think we ought to embrace that because i think it is more powerfully or it is more empowering to think about we commit to that struggle rather than to pretend it does not exist. I think that is absolutely true. Used the editorial, i subjunctive when i talked about the way the revolutionary cause might have changed the world. Thomas payne said we have it in our power to begin the world over again. Still aspire to that, but it is not that we have declined, it is that we are still in aspiration because it was never the gala terry and ideas that are layered into the revolution. One could argue how sensual they existed, andhey those were out of sync on most completely with lived experience in the time. Understanding of that, i think, does a few things. Shows how fragile this American Democratic experience is. A perspective on early america gives you a sense of how new it is. Ways,ore, in many vulnerable. , if it were to end, one could think what will people 500 years from now say about democracy . Every time people tried it the last couple of years, in rome, in florence, and here in america, lets not go there, but the stakes are bigger than the american experience. I think those are all things that come from an understanding of how violent and contingent early america was. I am always struck by the in america and what was happening in europe, and how violent it was there, and a lot of the intellectual discussion was figuring out how to get people to stop killing each other. All of these things engender right intellectuals about how do you create a society that is not one religion constantly fighting and asserting each other and there are some kind of sovereignty, and a lot of those ideas come into the founding generation and the idea they bring to the idea of the American Country reno. That, growing out of perspective, and understanding what happens before, in which is the story. Enriches the story. Invite juncture, one to in outsideo bring scholars and get them engaged in conversation. Also, have them engaged in conversation with amazing scholarships happening here, and in thes of Science College of arts and sciences, and we thought we would take the opportunity with this series to put up a spotlight on the faculty and scholarships by having our scholars give a brief response to the conversations we have been having and that they are hearing, things that have been left out, connections we have not made, and to invite that scholar to engage with you, the audience, as we moved to q a. Them tolike to invite the stage here. We have the professor of history in disciplinary studies, and the founding director of the studies andr global Africana Studies program at villa nova. The lead for areas of specialization, african, africanamerican, issues in class, race and gender. [applause] first of all, i would like to thank my colleagues. Maybe i should not thank you because this is a hard act to follow. It is almost impossible to do justice in summarizing it. What i want to do is to point out one of the things or couple of the things that interest me most in terms of this kind of work. Colleagues may question the fact on whether or not i am a historian. I tend to labor most of the time and historiography. I am interested in the question very poignantly in terms of thinking about the power of history. As historiographer, i am interested in the why and how of doing this work. That comes back to jasons introduction. Lendstroduction itself to the questions of the purpose of history. We need to be clear in terms of understanding the power that is inherent in history is that history, no matter what you think of it, is purposeful. It serves interest. It is an interpretive art, and as such, it is subject to this question of revision. I am going to ask you to do something as the audience, as my wife often has me do, and that is to think about the very nature of language here. The question of doing revisionist history. Word is vision. The prefix suggests that we revision what we are doing. It also goes back to karins last comment about this notion that history is not simply about the past. It is not solely about reflecting on our present state. It also has something to do with rejecting the possibilities of the future, and we need to look at that. The thing i want to engage briefly here is in terms of the discussion we have been through, also in ways of thinking about i suppose we can think of it as a powerful piece of work the New York Times has produced, certainly prolific, almost ubiquitous, but as an historiographer, subject to question. The question that i have goes back to something that all of the panelists have mentioned here, and it is the question of symbolism and historical production. Take something as simple as dates. Argue on the other one that this moment 1690, this was one of the times for tax with many colonists and the times, when slavery is introduced to englishspeaking america. Some people say no. Slaveryion suggested needs something that is inherent to certain populations, that it would be expected that once they stepped off the ship, or anything they stepped off of, this would be their status. We know by reading the accounts in places like virginia that this is a process. It is not, as one author put it, a thinking mistake. It was contentious in the historical documentation. The dispute over the inherent nature of slavery, over the symbolism of 1619, and the question of inflation as an american proposition is also rooted in the fact that there are people, as ana has mentioned, who were in virginia before 1619 who were of african descent, and the documentation up through the made part of the 17th century gives us no indication of what the status is, other than to move to a to another symbol that encompasses enslavement, that we would call bondsmen ship. This gives us an interesting proposition for revisioning the american sense of unity. It could be argued that in colonial virginia, in 1619, more than theye bonded were free. This bondsmen notion would have encompassed apprentices, indentures, and slaves. Ther statuses, if we read statutes with nuance, suggest that those elements sometimes overlapped. They overlapped to the degree that we have to have legal codes to separate tend several populations. One of the issues that unites america at the very beginning is that most of us who come at the very beginning are in some form of unfree labor relationship. That is a symbol we dont explore. We are fond of thinking in this way, and this is my metaphor for beginning my inquiry. You all know thanksgiving dinner, right . You all know 1620. You know plymouth rock. You know the pilgrims. We go back to this notion of violence. All right, well, we need to evaluate pilgrims on both sides of the atlantic. We need to understand questions of religious fundamentalism and how it plays out in all kinds of spaces before, when in fact, we embrace a symbol of a kind of purity that is illuminated with cities on hills. Hills,ymbols, cities on bright, shining exemplars, all right, examples of chosen people, need to be, in fact, juxtaposed with other kinds of symbols to talk about the very nature of the coming of the american state. Ast would be issues such thinking about, well, thanksgiving, thinking about the white house. You have all seen pictures of it. Thinking about the capital. And thinking about the things that were literally, again to use the term inherent, in their construction. Either conceptually or physically. Us to come to grips with the project of democracy. If we come to grips with the other revisioning of the symbols of who we are as americans, we might be forced to work through some of the issues we have there. Want tone to thank i thank our colleagues and members of the audience for participating. Jason thank you for taking on this role and joining the conversation. I think the illusion for the audience is a great way to segue into conversation with the audience. We have about 2025 minutes left for that. Our typical style of doing the q a is to start on one side of the room and work across to the other side, and come back around this way. He also like to make sure we have the diversity of voices included. Students, community numbers, faculty and staff. We do have james somewhere. James, our undergraduate fellow with the microphone. We will start on this side of the room this time and work our way across. I will call on people as we go, and just a polite reminder to onp your question or comment the brief side so we can make sure we get as many people into the conversation as possible, feel free to address your question to a panelist or as a group to respond. Lets see if anyone on this side of the room has something he or she wants to contribute to the conversation. If you have questions, you can raise your hand and we will get to people one at a time. There is a question down here in the corner. Mind, if yount feel up for it, you can introduce yourself, as well. I noticed in a few context how the narrative around slavery has changed in terms of more of a conscious, whether in new york, or whether in historic locations in virginia, not allowing the whitewashing of the issue. Knowing what you know in your body of work, how would you contextualize our current narrative how we view iran, different narratives that are going on in our political politics speak . I cant hear you. Is the microphone on, sir . Can you check . I dont know if you understood that, but how does that i will repeat the question. Affect yourt approach to how we should be viewing our current narratives . Jason i will repeat the question for those who are unable to hear it. Current political debates that we are having, how does that affect what we think about slavery . How do we incorporate questions about Current Events and current political moments into these historical examinations that are essential to our scholarship . I will put you on the spot first, ana. Does inking about current political debates impactor scholarship . If so, are you able to articulate that . Ana lucia of course, there is a. Ertain impact the kind of work that i do, i study memories. What i do is to understand how in the present people they engage with the past. Of course, look at the issue of slavery through this lens. Many of the debates we have about what happened, what has really happened, and then during the period of the Transatlantic Slave Trade, slavery, the fact that this past remained invisible to us in the public time, with very long plantations in the south or virginia, or new york, and we would not see anything related to slavery. This new visibility of the of people the product who are alive today and two are pushing to make this reality visible because of the racial inequalities, racism, and the persistency of white supremacy. Of course, there is an impact of people who are visiting this side, they are leaving people and demanding people for this past to be recognized. These demands, these claims, it is not something about the past. It is not something about what is in the books, but it is about the legacies. Atother words, we can look historians and ask ourselves, how many black people we have today attending these discussions. We can ask the same question when you are referring to the audiences who go visit virginia, and there are reasons for that. Blackare women, either men and women, who go to these places, and they dont see their history or past recognized and discussed. The fantasy is that they will start asking to have that recognition. All of these new discussions about the past is then derived the the claims from present, and i think we cannot escape that. Even the discussion about 1619. We saw this in social media. On 1619,le reacted some for good reasons that perhaps we had the slavery and people of african descent and enslaved africans in the continent already. One is 100 years before that, saying that slavery was not as it should bed that rejected because slavery was not as crucial to the devoutness of this nation as people are claiming. Use we have at the base, we the past events, and we use the slaves past in order to fight these battles of the present. We cannot escape to that. We can participate. We can intervene. We can question. We can watch. We can see how these discussions can perhaps lead us one further step, but i think this is a problem that we cannot escape. Thinko conclude, i dont it is something specific to the United States. We have similar debates going on brazil,nd, france, latin american countries, including mexico, where perhaps we dont even know it is a place where there are people of african descent. Jason real briefly before get to more questions, one debate we are having is about immigration. That is something i know you have done work on recently. Question about reparation is not a new one. There have been people discussing this since the early 17th century . That if thereknow are new stories, we just kind of work and we can arrive at the conclusion that there were people perhaps many reparations earlier, but in this country, already during the time of the American Revolution, we had individuals, and we dont have a collective movement, but we have individuals demanding reparations and people who are very aware of the fact that they provided work that contributes to the wealth of their masters. This occurred in the 18 century during the time of the American Revolutionary war. We had that during the 19th people, and we also had making those demands, and of course, after the end of reconstruction, as well, we will see more collective movements of many reparations, and i will discuss reparations, indeed and i would say from time to time, that it has been there very long. These things that appear to be revisions are extensions of debates that have been ongoing. Lets get some more audience comments and questions. There is a gentleman there with the question. Hi, this is a great evening, by the way. This is for dr. Mead, we have been to the museum, a wonderful place. Following up on your comment , it isemocracy interesting what our country has endured for 200 something years, slavery, civil war, great depression, two world wars, etc. , and you mentioned democracy. Willonfident would you say our democracy survive . [laughter] well, the typical move of an historian and that question is historians are bad at predictions. We are better at looking backward. There are two sayings, there is nothing new under the sun, and you cannot step into the same river twice. Both are true. Both mean the opposite thing. Every historical dynamic is so different that it is difficult to scientifically model what frommes could come understanding the past. It is the limitation of the old saying that those who do not learn the past are doomed to repeat it. Responded tomously that concept, saying history is bunk because if it was true, if it was of any benefit, we would have prevented world war i. And there is a challenge to that, but i think that there are dynamics that have been in effect constitutionally since the beginning of the federal government of the United States, which i would think is the separation of powers, and as different branches of government rise into prominence and power, they tend to meet credibility challenges of the American People and the other branches rise to seize some power in that gap. There has been a rise in president ial power in the past few decades. I think the question is whether the separation of powers is going to operate the way it has in the past. Ithink the other question is of aspiring tore these inclusive legality arian hods legality arian egalitarian methods of the doctrines is healthy. I think conversations like this one, rooms filled like this one, are some evidence to hope that is true. Jason in addition to historians, we also have educators and professors on this stage. I wonder maybe if you want to comment from the historian angle as professors and educators. Seeing the students year after year. Brief points on this question of will democracy last . An historian, we understand democracy as a process. It is not an event. It is a process. Ae second point is that as process, it is always evolving and different, so just look around the world at the different models for democratic participation. Some of which are in places you would never have imagined them to exist. That is part of the historical element. The second, the third point, and i think the most important point that we learn historically is that one cannot have democracy without struggling for it. The basic example of that was woman froma young scandinavia addressed a global body and said that the fundamental thing that had to happen in order to bring about change, and change that was egalitarian throughout the world, was for people to become activists. That is a democratic model. My only fear about democracy is that the people who can really bring it about will be sitting on their dust watching things go by. I would have just said yes. So i have got kids. And my kids worry about the climate. They dont worry about democracy. They worry about the climate. Who is a 18yearold very wise boy, and he said, we have not even had democracy yet, actually. That is actually true. When you think about the brief period in which we have experienced a full voter franchise in this country [laughter] there are kind of glimpses. We are still grabbing for it. I dont think it is the case we are losing democracy. I think we are better equipped by a history of struggling for it and continuing to struggle for it. I know my kids and students will, so i say yes. Jason lets keep moving across the room. We have these two sections so far. I will jump over to this section, and then we will come back to the middle. There was someone in the back row with glasses, who i cannot quite make out. If you can get over there. Hi, there. Hard to see all the way over there. Roberta, my name is and this is a great discussion. Hi, john. My question has to do with museums. So the museum of the American Revolution is remarkable. You walk through the door and you immediately see how inclusive it is, in addition to how creative exhibits are. My question is whether as someone who helped design and run a museum, do you see in the make themovement to more inclusive in this way in the United States . Talked it is ana who about the importance of seeing themselves when they go to monticello and their history, my view is it is more important for people to see other peoples history. I learned my history about my race and my ancestors. It is important for other people who are not related to me to see those kinds of contributions. Do you see that kind of Movement Toward inclusiveness moving through the United States . I think that is beautifully put. One keyword often repeated among Museum Professionals is empathy. Is tooject of museums build test that kind of empathy who are different from yourself or might appear to , and in somey cases, that is just because they lived a long time ago. Muscle that empathy is a , and i think a lot of museums are seeking to be a good gymnasium for that muscle. Jason we have a few more minutes left. I will take a few more questions. There is a woman who has been very patient in the middle with the glasses. James, if you are able to pass the microphone . Raise your hand again so james can find you. There you go. Thank you. Director foundational of the quaker Information Center in philadelphia from 1990 to 2003 or so, and it was my pleasure and my honor to try and explain quakerism past, present, and future to people who called or wrote to the center. One of the hardest questions to answer had to do with william penn, whom i thought was such a hero, and feel to this day is. And so many ways, how could we justify he had a place . I thought about this a lot. I did not come up to great answers a lot of the time about this. It seems to me that in order to understand anyones procrastinations about what is right and about what is appropriate behavior, we have to identify in that era what is the ,ommon belief, the worldview that everyone agrees is Common Knowledge . For instance, may be their children, of course, cannot be expected to be as intellectually or otherwise as turned on and engaged as adults, or women are not capable of strong, heavy thought, difficult decisionmaking, or that knee s,ows , or that negro blacks, or the other are capable. If there is an error, where that is the common belief, where every newspaper you pick up would reinforce it, or every conversation you would have with a friend or relative, or authoritative person, would reinforce your belief that the other was not capable. Jason i think what i hear in your question and comment is understanding people and their own times, on their own terms. That is an historiographical challenge. I will turn it to our pennsylvania scholars and experts. Karin i spent a long time looking at quakers who enslaved people. Question to the bigger youre asking because there is a lot to be said about the deep roots of the slave trade in the Quaker Community, and among some of the most prominent quaker families in philadelphia, and prominent politicians of the time. I think the bigger question you are asking is, can we evaluate people outside their own frame of evaluation . I think the answer is, first of all, yes because we are living here, and they were living there. Does not always ask you to make a moral judgment, but sometimes it really does. The second thing is when you say when everybody thought, it is not everybody. It might be the people in their Small Community or what we would call today an information bubble that views that, but even just i realize when you invoked about au are talking late 17th century moment, and i am about to vault us ahead to the mid18 century, but you know, quakers, there are a lot of very active, very intellectual, politicized quaker women by the middle of the 18th century, who are doing extraordinary things and being recognized for that and within their own communities further intellectual contributions, and there are certainly people within that community and the Quaker Community, and enslaved also peopleere are in the free Quaker Community who have a position on slavery by the mid18 century that say this is completely contrary. Anyway, so you are kind of asking a couple different things. One is about how do we understand the information or the moral bubble people are living in, and can we evaluate them outside of it . I would say that that is a bubble around them and people of their own time. Really, we do get to make assessments. They are there, we are here, and we can say, according to the standards of our time, that is completely wrong. That it thing, which is also think it is not the case that we can look at an historical figure like william penn and say there is nothing that he has to contribute to our present day because he was an in slaver. I think the same is true of jefferson, and the same is true of some of the great civil rights leaders of the late 20th century who are misogynists. Do they have nothing to contribute to us . That is not the case. We have to understand people are really complex. There is unbelievably rare person who contributes unfiltered good to us out of the past. Jason conscious of time, we 8 30, but wentil started late. We can take two brief more questions, and we will wrap up. But we are offering free dessert today, so if you stick around until the end, you can get a brownie, a cup of tea, and continue to engage with the panel. This is not your only chance to be part of the conversation. We will take one from our student friend in the back, and you will get the last question. James, why dont we get our student in the back. Then we will take this last question here and then wrap up. Hello, i am a current grad student here. My question is, is it possible for an historian, when studying the past, to transcend their own time, and do even want to that . This is to all of the panelists, or anyone who wants to answer it. Graduateis is a student, so your questions will have implications for your future career. [laughter] is it possible to transcend our own bubbles, our own time, our own contemporary news when exploit history . There are two conflicting views. The first comes from any story agra for i guess that from an historiographer i guess i worship. He makes the distinction between reading history, writing history, and doing history. The active doing history is the attempt to immerse oneself in the historical moment out of which one writes. Conflicting view, though, is review by stuart hall, who argues that there is a serious impossibility of disengaging oneself from the space firm which one writes. There is a contention there for any intellectual in terms of doing this kind of work. This is the kind of work that abouteople argue will ask questions of objectivity. The rational person will look for balance. And the balance is between the moment in which we exist and the purpose of our history, and the moment that we are tempted to historic size and what they tell us about our own existence. Karin that is beautifully put. When we talk about revisionist history, some people think historians are distorting the past. We dont exactly have a hippocratic oath, but we might as well. One of those is we dont distort the past. You dont take things out of context and frame them absolutely and some completely other context. That is wrong. That is a legitimate practice. And we see this happen all the time. Sometimes it is because of person is tweeting about some piece of information they found and they read, and they believe that contradicts a whole line of argument and a whole set of evidence, and that is not just something we would do. As professional historians, we are committed to not distorting. I could never put this as eloquently as you did, but i dont think you can live outside your own time. I dont think we can unseat things unsee things, and unbelief them. Believe that deeply engaging in the past can give almost perspective layered so poorly and that past present, mayour more than your present or as much as your present is shaping your interpretation of the past. I remember a friend of mine in graduate school being accused of throughting charles i the lens of george w. Bush and his dissertation for it he said, i know nothing about george w. Bush. If anything, i interpret the world from charles i. I think it is a dialectic. Jason final question from our friend right here. Well, here is one for the educators. Am retired from active teaching but not from active living history. Really caughtings my attention deeply. Panel tried tohe dissociate the concept of climate, in general, with democracy, with the idea of democracy. And as ance teacher, person living in this world, i would like to set the record straight. Jason but you must do it briefly. We are keeping people from dessert. Are we . I hope im not. Climate is the most democratic idea you can imagine because it will affect us all equally. Equally. ,ot because you have more money because you are in the east, west, up or down. Climate is for us all to observe. That is number one. I hope i clarified that notion. Second thing is i had the opportunity of working in two. Ifferent schools i was a schoolteacher. One was predominately black, africanamerican, almost seven years. And then 26 last years in a predominately jewish, irish, and other social groups. Believe personally to see this disturbing idea of even the textbooks exploring the idea i came and how from another country but then i came to believe personally that living idea of racism, even in history texts, the lectures mean, i sawve, i became deeply that i just enraged. Coming from another part of the world. , how do anyquestion of you envision the idea of , to make a hypothetical point, how can this be eradicated or somehow eliminated, or reduced here in america . How do you see that . Jason i through a volleyball earlier. That may have been a cannonball. Im not sure we can address that in the time we have left. I will throw it to the panel if they want to offer any brief ands about how grappling engaging with this past of early america can be put to use to create a better world in the future . Which i think is common with your mission. Karin i would just say that when we see a complex and diverse early america, we are more likely to live successfully in a complex and diverse modern world. When i say early america is foundational, the early america we see is foundational and tells us what we are building upon. I dont know about the work of racism is the work of humanity. But i do think this history has a place. It goes back to the comment before about exercising the muscle of empathy. In some ways, it doesnt matter which history you are studying, or if you are studying another contemporary culture. The practice of recognizing the humanitarian the humanity, the emotional and rational world of someone who differs from you can be translated across your life. I think that is something history really significantly offers. For all the panelists up here, one of the things that is inherent to the question of being revisionists is the fact that everyone here challenges issues of oppression in different ways. Racism being one of them. Ist of it, as an educator, the Continuous Education of our students and ourselves to these kinds of things, and the continuous revision of the kinds of symbols and histories that we see before us. It is ongoing. It is like democracy itself. It is never the same in every era. A good question that we will continue to explore throughout the Academic Year. Coming five more events up. Different subjects, different topics, but very fundamental questions about the past and how it matters in the present and the role it plays in our society and democracy. I hope you will join us. For those of you who came in with one idea of what revisionist history might be, perhaps we complicated that a bit for you. Perhaps we have more work to do. If that is the case, please come back. There is information about our future programs on your way out and delight reception with brownies, coffee, and tea. Our panelists will be joining us, so if you had questions or thoughts you did not get to address, join us for that. Please join me in thanking this extraordinary panel. [applause] announcer today at 2 30 p. M. Eastern on American History tv, winston lorde, author of on theger on kissinger, secretary of state and his relationship with kissinger. He was so interested in it, and enable to do that, he needed his own National Security advisor. Announcer at 10 00 to do exceptlittle work, and life seemed rugged, indeed. Here, in such a setting, they prepared to search for oil. Announcer on real america, the origins of the Saudi Arabia Oil industry. Vittorio woodhall was well before her time. For free love, which means sex outside of marriage. At 6 38, a discussion on democracy and truth a short history. One person, no one institution, no one sector, king, priest, National Research body would get to call all the shots. Announcer explore our nations past on American History tv, every weekend on cspan3. Sunday on q a, the smithsonian institutions Peter Leopold on the history of tariffs and managing the u. S. Economy. The Supreme Court eventually ruled a tomato is a fruit and not a vegetable because of a tariff. Any botanist would tell you a tomato is a fruit. Tariff put a1883 tariff on vegetables and not fruits, so an importer of that thes pointed out tomatoes he was bringing in from the caribbean were approved, and he did not have to pay a tariff. The battle went on for quite some time. Eventually, the Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes are actually a vegetable. It is an interesting ruling that had recovered repercussions beyond. Announcer visit to rapid city, we take you to the south dakota air and space museum and hear about the role of Ellsworth Air force base during the cold war. Welcome to the south dakota air and space museum. People think of south dakota, they dont always think about a great aviation state but we have a huge Aviation Heritage in the state. Over the years, we have played a huge part in our national defense. Ellsworth air force base began in world war ii. Its purpose in world war ii was to train bomber crews specifically b17 crew. If you think about it, if you are going to learn to navigate a world war ii bomber over long distances and expenses of territory, south dakota