Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion 20240704

The collaborations on communications security. Communications is essential, i would say to our modern economies as the demand for flow continues to increase. There are, of course, aut the a university of telecommunications infrastructure, whether its cables■s■q, satelles, various technologies such as open ram and the security, Cyber Security throughout these systems. Weve pulled together an excellent panel today to talk about these. Folks from us and japan who are experts in this field and diverse expertise in in field, i should say, coming from various different agencies and organizations and so, what well do, ill give just their brief introductions and then share their wisdom. Well open it up to questions from the audience and everybody can start thinking about it here. And first the Deputy Director general for the global japan min city of affairs and communications. Next to him is mark, the director of bilateral and Regional Affairs in the information Communication Policy Division of the u. S. Department of state and the end would he have a senior representative from the japan bank of International Cooperation. We had a fourth panelist, meredith potter, unfortunately she came down with the flu over the weekend and is not able to join us today. We wish her a quick recovery. With that being said, the floor is yours. Thank you very much. From the International Affairs and communications. Thank you very much for organizing this together today. This topic is what the u. S. And japan has been working together and im very pleased to share our perspective today. In the world we live in today,t our life. The infrastructure, such as networks plays a crucial role as a foundation of our social and economic activities. Its becoming, so to speak,he basis of the nations existence. The sophistication of the infrastructure and the diverse use for these services have led to an increase in crossborder data fraud that is date a fraud beyond the national borders. For example, the distribution increased, 2. 7 times between 2017 and 2021. The technology is also expected to further increase data traffic. This demonstrates how important the it sector is and International Cooperation. So we believe the two points important for interNational Communication, first, building a secure, robust, promoting trust by supply by trusted entities. And the second one is the strength in Global Connectivity through deploying networks. When we talk about i. T. Technologies the technologies, ill focus particularly on 5g and important infrastructure such as cables and the nonterrestrial network. With 5g network we understand openness and interoperability essential. In particular, the network, open lan, combining equipment from various vendors, leading to stable procurement and cost reductions. Legacy system long is proprietary, and provides radio hardware for it and interfaces allowing the network to function, however, can construct the networks based on their respective applications or involvement often picture c provide more vendor options and brings more competitive and diverse supply chains. In terms. Security aspect published quad Security Networks last year, it explains that the security risks lead to technologies, account for only 4 of the entire system. It also made it clear that those risks can be mitigated to appropriate measures such as following the checklist attached. In terms of energy estimates suggest over lan reduced Energy Consumption by a maximum of 50 . It is good that we have been observing that in 4g and 5g commercial network in japan, and here in the United States. In order to, we see opportunities for bilateral cooperation bet the u. S. In supporting deployment in countries and in continue promote the importance for openness and interoperability. In fact, we have on many occasions, to interagency cooperation and the government between cooperation. The future of i. T. Infrastructure is not limited to terrestrial communications, we need to show a Network Vision for beyond 5g, 6g, which is not only extension of 5g. Last year the g7 Technology Minister of meeting released vision for future networking beyond 5g, 6g era. And on the tech leaders■x that lead the Network Connectivity should be developing and deploying multilateral networks with terrestrial networks such as low orbit satellite and High Altitude platform station. And also recognize the importance of seamless interoperability between these networks. It is said that cables account for 99 of National Communication and the very important for ensuring improved interconnecttivity, it is necessary to secure safe roads for cables and redundancy and prote cable installation. If we believe well become crucially infrastructure. An examination includes constellations, u. S. , japan, eight other countries with the joint statement between those principals for 6g and standardization of 6g technology. Along with the, such as satellite and a base platform that floats in the stratosphere. He 200 kilometer in diameter. A low cost satellite connections. 5g and future beyond 5g, 6g, 7g can also be provided and companies in japan successfully demonstrated 5g mmunications, with xheshlly available smart phone terminals. A satellite constellation where theyre in low earth orbit and communication for satellite. In the future, direct communications with satellites such as platforms using frequencies, its expected to become a reality. And generally, over this year, we have just started the production of satellites and communications in japa we believe if the direct communication with satellites will contribute to network and multilayer and wide area coverage. It can also provide a means of communication in times of building such as natural disasters. Maintain free hyper space, its essential to assure the infrastructure, that technologies evolving at increasing pace so in order to keep up with this evolution, of the governments cannot handle it alone and its important with industry and academia, society and include such as the institute. And it will remain committed to International Cooperation and thank you very much. Thank you, those were excellent remarks, yeah, it really is enduring how much work the u. S. And japan have been doing in ict, and for 6g. Theres recently a new dialog on Digital Economy between the United States and japan. Perhaps our next speaker, mr. Conan can enlighten us from his perspective. Id like to thank the Hudson Institute and walters for giving us an opportunity to underscore the nature of collaboration between japan and United States on digit would li to publicly acknowledge the leaders on common issues without his leadership we would not be able to as much as we have and work on policy and programs i think thats because we share a common vision devoted that the internet should be open, reliable, secure and interoperable and thats built on a foundation of trust. So there are three elements in the policy set, in the policy set that describes our bilateral Work Together. The first of those is infrastructure supply. By that, i mean sourcing and equipment and code from countries that have independent judiciary, due process procedures, effective institutions, that allow one to have their privacy protected, that allow businesses to have their intellectual property protected and allow states to have their National Security protected as a consequence of using those networks and i also want to add that its the countrys institutions, not the company involved, not the product line, that defines trusted supply as we see it. The second aspect of our policy set was eloquently described, and that is vendor diversity, the disaggregation of the various Network Among various vendors of code and equipment. The code part is important because as we know, industry he think years afternoon tell us in our conversations with them. Well see increased virtualization of the network starting now. And well move away from hardware to Software Based increasingly. The vendor diversity has those, underlined, the Economic Development and growth that occurs when you have more innovation provided by small, medium and Large Businesses in the eco system. Theres increased price competition because more than one supplier is meeting your needs and that of course, prevents vendor lock in, you can innovate usually 7 to 10 years appreciation period. Youre not waiting for the end of life to do an update. This will become increasingly important as we approach the beyond 5g, 5g policy and engineering set. Third pillar is an extension of the trusted supply argument across the ict eco system. Its a holistic approach to trust the supply not only wireless, cables, undersea and terrestrial. Satellite, go, leo. Why . It really makes no sense to be focused exclusively on wireless if the data cte our information is not secured. If the submarine cables, counting as much as 99 of our information internationally are not also secure and if the leo and geo satellites that receive and send signals are not secure. Its a matter of logic. We have an advantage by the simple and plain fact that matching our bilateral cooperation between the u. S. And japan is a very rich binational cooperation. And thats commercial. I give to you, for example, and this is just one of many, theres a problem called orex which involves 10 major u. S. Companies providing code and equipment to deployments with ntk with nec on february 26th of this year, a joint venture that will be extended globally see more global footprint to this Work Together. Id like to give you two examples, two examples of our collaboration. One is the open ran economy in manila which has trained upwards of a thousand engineers and the next generation of leaders in the field to open approach to technology. The nation we shouldnt just be focused on deployment, but the skill needed like the phillipines to engage producttively in this infrastructure. And second, let you know that the bureau of cyber space and bureau from which i hail is thanks to congress wisdom has been resourced to fund to provide our partners and allies we have the digital connectivity and Cyber Security program and we have roughly 50 of the chips act fund devoted to itc infrastructure issues, upwards of 50 million a year ext five years. That has allowed us to take our policy set and work constructtively with partners around the globe. Weve had ict secure road shows in poland, africa and most recently vietnam. And weve had intermitt involvement of both japanese policy makers and industrs in those engagements and that has made a crucial difference because voices in the neighborhood like vietnam are providing a window into the future and opportunities that exist today. A reference to the dialog on communication issues that we enjo i with japan and let me turn briefly to that and give you a sense of some of the outcomes, positive outcomes from our most recent dialog. The first is the focus on International Standards which includes an existing u. S. Japan obal Digital Technology partnership to Work Together on communications and biodiversity. We have the pleasure of sharing that particular mechanism on at least a quarterly basis. Second is a desire to support trusted deployment of ict infrastructure in third countries, especially 5g and open ran and as well as undersea cables. Ive referenced the work were doing together in the philippines and under the quad and the pacific country of palou, is the beneficiary on this calendar year. And fth consideration for undersea cables and ongoing efforts on the deployment of 5g and open ran systems. Next in the dialog agreement on promoting support for responsible Ai Governance including through the hiroshima process led by japan so ably during the 2023 g7 presidency and that italy is currently advancing further at the g7 ministerial actually just last week. Japan and the United States also concurred on the importance of protecting data and privacy, including by expanding the adoption of crossborder rules, operational certification of companies globally. We also concurred in our desire share to leverage the interNational Communication unions and our respective japanese and u. S. Leadership bodies to build coalitions and advance common interest. The world telecommunication standard in dell delhi later in the year. And the collaboration must be close. Finally well support digital freedoms, including the use ofh misinformation, disinformation, commercial spyware and Online Harassment that inhibit our freedoms. With that ill close and pass it back to riley. Thank you, that was wonderful. You mentioned a lot about the efforts and collaboration of u. S. And japan in areas, in regions throughout Southeast Asia, countries, specifically philippines, vietnam, you mentioned palou and so i think perhaps our third speaker might be probably the best to continue on that theme of cooperation and international markets. Of course, japan bank for International Cooperation works closely with americas finance cooperation to establish investments in the infrastructure abroad and so, please maybe tell usour work an you all are doing in the space, specifically on teleCommunication Security. Thank you, riley. Im in a way a representative of japan International Cooperation, washington d. C. Office. So, some of you may know, the policy based financial institution, and what you see here in washington d. C. So our mission or mandate is to support japanese private industry and businesses by the world and also, i would say that our operation fully allowing the Japan Company policy so we will Japanese Industries and also the japanese Government Policies by way of our financial tool kit. And also, we have posted about the likeminded partners like the United States and most remarkable cooperation with the u. S. , we signed understanding in 2018 i remember and we expanded cooperation gradually and ict is definitely. And in addition to that i would like to introduce that we have the others on u. S. Public institutions like usaid or and most institutions have the sanctions of the cities so which are in various stages. When it comes to ict sector, i like to explain two examples■■■t this moment. The first one is the support. Some of you may know, 99 of communications done by the cable and the Japanese Company nec is one of the leading companies in this space. So we are very active in supporting their businesses. And the first tangible project is the cable. This is a good showcase of the cooperation. And to the palou government, in addition, usaid provides the of japan is for the pacific, supports this project byiding t this is a good combination of our finance and plans from the United States and elsewhere that that is we call them blended. And so second example is our supporting to the state of businesses and you may know that ntt is the worlds leading company of beta testening the United States and over the world, globally. Wed like to expand our cooperation with ntt as much as possible. And next i like to touch upon the recent the mandate. The japanese amended the law that regulated our operation, what we can do and last april they amenned the law, and not only the subsidiaries, but the local companies as well. As long its businesses. If the japanese industry tried to supply the key goods in some countries indopacific region we are now ae toupport those. Its a big one, and we like to exerci new mandate to support additional or the next businesses of japanese companies. Okay. So, with the mandate. Thank you. Thank you, that was wonderful. Again, for those who are not familiar with japanese and u. S. International finance, theres a lot of cooperation, collaboration in this space, especially as we, you know, talk about things Like International support for Development Economies or even competing with some of our International Competitors in this space that build out inastructure and build diplomatic relationships abroad. So, with this were going to open it up foruestions from the audience. If you have any questions, please raise your hand, a mic will come to you and ask about your question. Try to be as suscinct as possible. Im going to take the moderators privilege to ask the first question. The ict is it can be very technical sometimes. You know, not everyone is, lets say, computer savvy. I would say maybe even fewer people are actually finance savvy and we talk about blended finance. So maybe we can just dumb it down real quick from the i mean, weve already given a very general explanation of the importance of communications to the structure, the need for it to be trusted and secure so that Everyday Americans and japanese can benefit from what they can access and so, maybe i dont know how to ask this, actually. Is there a way that we can explain it even simpler, in simpler terms so that people understand that this relationship is very important, its very technical, it is very advanced in the terminoloies and the financing. Whats the simpler way that we can describe the importance of this sector and this work for the american japanese audience . Mark, why dont we start with you it would answers because its easy to dumb it down and the question is, do you want your information, whether youre representing a Major Corporation or Small Business or whether its your bank account or your health data, do you want that information to be hared with state intelligence agencies . If the answer is no then you are embracing the notion, the policies of a trustworthy supply. The question, are those in place from the source country are you, the transparency and nothing when the state was your data. There are cases in the United States and scandav countries, and examples throughout between japan where citizens are informed upon any kind of request like that. Thats the simple way of describing it and then the second on the other side of that coin, diplomacy in this field, particularly in this field because of the technology involved and the fact that that technology is on almost a daily basis is a team sport. The reference with close clap ration collaboration with industry. And without that wed be less effective in our advocacy. Likewise with think tanks, its important to understand changes as they come i dont know if you have any thoughts on this. Well, thank you. I would like to make reference from the different viewpoint. We enjoy the ai, for example, last year was the ai, so to speak. The area we are focusing on is the communication sector, but the generative ai has some ways with the communications, of course. And for example, generative ai will give us the opportunity to make the communication infrastructures management by way of automation or there are different operations can do. Theyre very efficient management or network control, it can. So such kind of very close things such as ai have communications sections. So we have feeling that all the state of the art have something, the u. S. And japan, the government and industry are focusing on. Yeah, no, thats ai is such a, it kind of goes to what mark is saying. Its just so rly you know . Who knows where it will be in six months from now, compared to where it was just last year. Last year, you know, there was t dai■zgu nly lives, but the communications and the structure thats, that c let me take a different perspective then. Weve sort of talkedbohe need to how do we discuss domestically, but as an or that deals internationally, how do you make the argument internationally that those countries in particular need u. S. Japanese and australian or other trusted vendors technologies in the face of, you know, pretty strong competition, whether its, you know, through diplomacy or even from a finance point of view . Okay. Firstly, i would like emphasize thatnce of the multilateral corporation important where we reach out to third countries. So, if myself go to the host country and its the opinion. But when it comes to create the one voicelikeminded personnel, it would be more powerful. So when we try to reach out third countries, we always create a nice group, likeminded personnel and explain our opinion. So, i would say thats the point. If possible, we can show some demonstrations so that would be more powerful. So, in this respect, use of economy, thats a good showcase how to describe and how to show our presence to the third countries. And second point i would like to mention is when were reaching out to private companies, now, they recognize the importance of the Cyber Security as the issue of the esg. So Everybody Knows about the esg when it comes to climate issue, but how to defend ourselves for the misinformation and disinformation, those are the issues of the governance. So if the company have denies internal system of esg, the corporate will increase. On the other hand if they fail a defend, prosperity will decline. So, this is now the discussion of esg. So, that discussion is understandable for private businesses. Its a difficult decision and a side or b side. Thats also a discussion. So this is the discussion to maximize the corporate so that would be the argument where we reach out to private citizens. Thats my impression. I think another way to kind of describe it, you mentioned at the end there, sort of cyber hygiene as a matter of corporate value whether companies are considering their you know, if its reported that a company would get hacked what kind of effect would that have on their business . Certainly important. Any questions from the audience here . Well go right here. Hi, im Craig Singleton for the defense of democracies where we lead our china program. Problematic and sanctioned Companies Like huawei are contributors, when the foundation, oran alliance are contributing to the software and we talk about it as potentially a way to break the stranglehold on 5g and 6g. Should we be collaborating with that, when china telecom, uni com are key partners to that organization . So the policies that are described to you earlier, sir, remember the foundation, trusted supply based upon independent judiciary due process procedures. Okay . So while linox may be contributing, but a trusted supply. We to that part of that encouragement to get japanese, u. S. , korean, other industries, india involved in that cooperation, and specifically for the settings that go on in International Commercial collaboration through the bodies designed for that purpose because we feel if theres dominance by one party, then the outcomes will not reflect the broader international communitys needs. So there are two responses to the question, first, the specific policy set, second is the involvement of industry and other voices Going Forward in standard setting bodies. All right. Another question that i have is then since were on the topic of Cyber Security, theres a lot of discussion, i believe, rat least within the United States, i dont know how far this discussion goes in japan, but the idea of building a network with built on zero trust, in fact. So, establishing certain standards that ensure that any sort of provider or procurement of technologies within the United States are developed in the knowing that eventually youre going to get hacked, you know . And Cyber Incidents these days, its not a matter of if, its a matter of when so eventually your things are going to be breached and i had a personal cyber incident last week and so, you know, the discussion on the digital dialog on economy and other discussions on ict touch on this matter . Does it touch on building a zero trust network and of course, how the u. S. And japan can build on that as already trusted suppliers to each other . I dont know if okamoto, if you have any thoughts . Okay. Thank you. We call the introduction of 5g open lan which is very close relation to the Cyber Security on the trust that you mentioned. For example, in the early developing countries earlier, doing the operating the equipment which can form with china or the reduction and introduced. So those countries cannot easily change the network content, but we, the japan, u. S. , have the relationship to promoting the introduction of 5g within the countries such as latin america. We are doing the cochairing kind of, with countries visavis mobile voices in the countries and they have some kind of enlightenment of the importance and the goodness of introduction. So, such kinds of cooperation is going on and thats accrued with such kindness. Yeah, i think it was you who mentioned earlier, open ran has low percent of cyber incidence, 4 is that what you mentioned . And better Cyber Technical infrastructure, you know, definitely investing in open ran and other areas that can help develop that. Its definitely important. You mentioned the cost competitiveness issue, of course. Thats i think thats a big issue across all ict and the theory is that open ran can sort of help development that. When we talked about international finance, then, how much does open ran play into the discussions when youre talking . Youre looking abroad. Undersea cable is very important given that it does necessitate a lot of the International Flow of data, but incountry, how much does it normally come up in your discussion . Oh, yes, i think recently many countries have strong interest in introducing that in the future because of the cost issue and also avoiding the situations and so when we talk about the when we talk about the countries in the region, they show some interest about that. And when it comes to cost discussion, we sometimes got the response from the government that is it truly a the countries tends to focus just on the cost of installation, and the capital expenditure, but we have to think about the cost of operation, including the operation in the maintenance space, it will be 20 years or 25 years discussion, so we always persuade the host government that please, consider the life cycle costs, life cycle costs. So do not focus too much on just initial cost. So this is an important point. What japan and the United States can explain to especially in grouping countries because they do not have enough experiences in longterm life infrastructure projects, so, like you see sometimes visit the government and the developing countrys businesses and explain the importance of life cycle cost and how to achieve the value for money. So, make an investment and as much as possible. And so this is what we are doing. I just want to piggyback on those insightful comments, both operational and capital costs. Our advocacy with third countries is not a one size fits all proposition. Beyond the National Security and personal data privacy issues ive referenced and reinforced by others on this panel. There are certain instances where a much more nuanced specific conversation can be add had and ill give you one example, in vietnam, a mobile operator in countries throughout Southeast Asia, in latin america and north africa. The aspiration of viatel is to offer alongside their operations of mobile networks, equipment. So, they are forming alliances with japanese and u. S. Companies for the possibility of offering an open ran solution globally. And having Manufacturing Base in vietnam to support that enterprise. Theyre adding a business line. Theyre building Economic Development locally and benefitting from innovation from japanese and u. S. Industry partners. So, again, its a specific kind of arrangement that we can offer in certain countries. India is another example where local talent is able to produce that necessary not only to the largest market in the world, but also globally. And so, the conversation changes country to country depending on local circumstances. I do want to kind of ask more about that because i think in the grander discussion around ict, it really it can sometimes be seen within the context of this is just another continuation of u. S. China rivalry in the international space, right . So the u. S. Trying to find partners and allies to work and compete with huawei, which is unfairly supported by its own government. Its under cutting vendors and suppliers all around the world. Some countries, i think more hesitant to, of course, build that relationship with such an untrusty vendor, but others who see the cost competitiveness of their products and, you know, throw caution to the wind, i guess you could say. When we talk about the competition with china, we talk about sometimes we talk about with the regional context, so, Southeast Asia being a particular focus given the proximity to put japan, china, of course, a lot of the u. S. Interest in the region. Latin america, africa, even europe to a certain extent. And of course, mark, as you mentioned, its the argument or i guess the its not one size fits all, right, for each country. Each country has their own diplomatic, Economic Security and other interests. And so, i do wonder how do we think about Going Forward in this partnership between the United States and japan as we look to Different Countries to partner with. India and vietnam, i think, are an excellent example. India has been for a while now, sort of seen as some of the potential scale as a competitor to china, a lot of economy, a lot of potential consumers, vietnam, of course, emerging itc space in Southeast Asia along with i would say malaysia and how do we think about this is for all three of the panelists whoever wants to attack it first. How do we go as a partnership to find the three partners . Is it waiting for them to come to us or do we go to them with arguments around safety, security, trust, finding new emerging technology . Me . Yeah, go ahead. So would like to expand our cooperation with the third parties in addition to the United States and japan. Depending on the government situation. For instance, in Pacific Island countries, australia has very Good Progress and the case to support those island countries. So japan, u. S. , have have cooperation and natural and good cooperation in that area. And when it comes to india we would like to collaborate and theres an export and this much, the biggest india think tank hosted the event, National Dialog in tokyo. And they have at least about the ict Technical Cooperation with india, in india. So, india and japans companies and the u. S. Also have, and so we changed the collaboration with third partners. So thats our next step and also, the last part mentioned is important. So we should go first. So, always told the staff should be spearheading the project. So when that doesnt work, we should go there and talk and discuss with the government or the businesses and explore and create the next ict businesses, mainly in that region and globally, yeah. Two observations on the competition question is an essential one. The first is my office rbo, we spent a heck of a lot of time wearing an erickson hat and a mobile tshirt. In many regions, they have tight margins and go something theyve seen work. So, we social the fine products to erickson and nokia offered and theres no value for the United States in that regard. I can legitimately say, we believe the citizens of country x should be allowed the same protections of the United States in your network security. And that curried some favor, but theres a price delta in many markets, significant subsidies are offered by the prc and thats very real. Its an extraordinary challenge and thats why the importance of the Development Finance corporation, xm and counterparts in japan and other countries is essential in this conversation. The second part of that, we know from some of the conversations from some of best in the industry, the beyond 5g and development, 6g and beyond will be basically open architectures. And what were offing to our third party countries, innovation, vietnam is an example, and thats why the philippines, singapore are interested. Increasingly were seeing our European Partners come on board. By videoo phone in spain and in germany, 170,000 sites. I dont know if you have the cooperation between the u. S. And japan is based on the cooperation in the third country and the cooperation within the multilateral, and bilateral that we have. And the first cooperation for the countries, they know its expressed in many ways, for example, we are doing the building things and for example, the academy kind of things which is based on the which is based on the kind of things which is remotely accessed from the persons within different areas for example, and also, the second one is international folden if we can achieve which would probably opened the die day before yesterday or something. Were promoting the openness first within the network constructions. But only the cables and the kind of the whole three dimensional networking and not only the cable, but also the space areas, for example. And also the bilateral cooperation we had with gdpc, the connected between the u. S. And japan and we have ourselves have the quarterly basis. So, such kind of the things very cooperated and multicompilelation going on. And the cooperation. Yeah, i think as this event has definitely highlighted, theres a lot ever different, very technical and somewhat complicated areas for the United States and japan to worry about, but i think that our collaboration and cooperation is moving successfully, moving smoothly. I think were progressing better than i think weve ever been. So its really endearing to see the relationship of the United States and japan move on, not just Communication Security which is important, but broader things, internationally as well. Its been really great hearing from the three of you and of course, your diverse areas of expertise. I hope we can all have you book here again either at a public or private session sometime, but lets give a round of applause for the group and thank you again for coming out to Hudson Institute today. Thank you. [applause]. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] and coming up, more live coverage from the conference on u. S. Policy toward iran and the middle east including remark some assistant secretary of state for near east affairs. Its hosted by the Wilson Center live at 10 30 a. M. Eastern here on cspan2. Cspan2 unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more including comcast. Are you thinking this is just a Community Center . Its way more than at. Comcast is partnering with 1000 Community Centers to quit wifi enabled lift zones so students from lowincome families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. Comcast supports cspan is a Public Service along with these other Television Providers giving you a frontrow seat to democracy. Congress returns to his effacing and that the headline of friday midnight eastern to fund the government and avert a partial shutdown. The is back at noon eastern and along with the senate plans to vote on the six remaining spending bills for 2024 to fund the federal government passed the deadline. Lawmakers will consider several Energy Policy bills as well as legislation to block the sale of americans sensitive personal data by data brokers to foreign adversaries. The senate also returns tuesday at 3 p. M. Eastern. Cindy does will consider of President Biden judicial nomination including Service Employees International Union general counsel Nicole Berner to