Transcripts For CSPAN2 John 20240703

He is the author of 15 best selling and Award Winning books, military history, including in the dead and those about die. September hope and fire and fortitude, a native of st louis and john is a curators professor of u. S. Military history at Missouri University of science and technology and rolla, this professor worship is bestowed by the university of missouri board of curators and the most outstanding scholars in the university of missouri system. During the 2018 2019 academic year, john was in residence at, the u. S. Naval academy and, annapolis, as the leo schiffrin, chair of naval, naval and military history, a distinguished visiting professor. Johns latest to the ends of the earth is the installment of three part history on the u. S. Army. During World War Two to the ends of the earth recounts the stories of us army in the final days, the battle bringing to life both the experiences of the foot soldiers and the strategy of commanders. To quote a review from general david petraeus, this brilliant and riveting final volume in an extraordinary trilogy solidifies john mcmanus reputation as one of the greatest historians of times. Please help me. We welcome john mcmanus. Thank you so much. Thank you. I dont know what to say after that. Thank you for that introduction. I paid general petraeus a lot of money for that blurb and boy, did that pay off. Id like to also thank kari, robb and my old friend whos who did all these arrangements to make this a success tonight. And id like to thank all of you for making time and trouble to come and see me on such beautiful evening. And im sure you could be doing a lot of other. But i want to tell you how much i appreciate that. You know, i want to just take you into the into the world of the us army in 1945 tonight its a when you take a look at this map you can just see the vastness of the of the theater. Its just almost stagger at this point. 1945, the army had had started to come into full maturity. And its its basically spread out along our map here from desolate outposts in alaska to choking jungles and burma, new guinea, the solomon islands, the caves back to the hills, a late in all of these other little sort of seemingly insignificant places in between. The army has really by this point done the vast majority of the fighting and the plurality of the dying in this war. So as of 1945, about 1. 4 million soldiers were spread across nearly a third of the globe surface, which you see here and answer no single commander, because it was a dispersion and of geography and command was really unprecedented before or since in American History by this army thats fighting in the pacific against japan have matured into one of those potent, sophisticated land forces in Human History. And yet a lot of major battles loomed. So the question now is not really whether the allies are going to win the war. They arent going to win the war and what would victory take and maybe even more significantly, how costly would be to achieve. So in the course of this war, by the time its done, more than 1. 8 million american ground soldiers served in in the war against japan to give you a little perspective, thats the Third Largest land force this country has ever sent overseas to fight a war behind only, of course, the european theater armies in both world wars one and two. And it is, of course, the army in the pacific, the certainly the most amphibious experienced ground force, Human History up to that point in time. And at that point, it comprised at least 21 infantry and airborne divisions, plus all sorts of independent teams, engineer, infantry armor. That really equates to about four more divisions worth of manpower. And of course, on top of that now, you have the massive numbers of Accompanying Service forces forces, again, engineering units and other specialist units that you would have to have to support this force and that number of them, including, by the way, i mentioned to you, by the way, does not include the army air force, as you probably know the air force was part of the army in World War Two before getting its independence after, the war. So the number i quoted you doesnt include the army air forces, the size of the army in dwarfed the United States marine corps. Yet i think its fair to say, in popular memory of the war against japan, there is notion that persists that the marines really did most all of the Ground Fighting and the army kind of just focused on europe while the army focusing on europe, of course, too. But point is, its also heavily involved in the pacific and asia as well. So its actually the army and not the marine corps that carries out most of the amphibious landings. Example, the marines carried 15 amphibious landings in course of the war against japan. Lieutenant general robert eichelberger, his eighth army alone, carried 35 in the spring in 1945. In the philippines alone. My purpose in mentioning this is actually to in some ways lionize the marine corps because, you know, its when you a sense of this larger perspective, you just how incredibly valorous the marines were, what major contribution they made. There just werent that many of them. They mobilized six divisions in the course of the war. Then youve got about four times that much army combat power. So the marines, by were supposed to be a select and mainly focused on combat. The army dealing not just with combat, but also is these other vast tasks that had to be done in order to win the war. So 42,000 of these soldiers, guys, this you see here would survive the army really does the plurality of the dying. They were felled by combat disease, accidents, the terrible privation of captivity. It was a of death. Again, to give you another perspective here, harvest of death that totaled than the entirety of any previous american conflict, except, of course the civil war in world war one. So just the army lost more dead army in the pacific alone, lost more in World War Two than in any previous american war, except for those two. Its just a course of staggering, epically complex by this point in time, vast capability, seldom seen in the course of human events. Its an army that by 1945 had proven very adept a variety of missions just to give a few examples grand strategic planning, interservice coordination of which there had to be a lot. Youre going nowhere without. The navy right. You need air support youre working with the marines. Youre working with the guard, you know, so youve a lot of interservice coordination, diplomacy, diplomacy with foreign leaders, military formations, intel gathering joint operations with allies like the australians would be my example. And also the chinese logistics, which are massive every single bullet, every paperclip every person has to be moved by somewhere, maybe by plane too, but mainly by ship that a lot of planning, logistics, sustainment, supply, all that unglamorous stuff. The armys doing most of it transportation. And of course, i mainly on land. Although the army had own little navy during the war too overstretched was the navy. The army commissioned ships so but you know transportation. You talk about trucking and and jeeps and whatnot necessary to move stuff to where it needs to be engineering. Theres an enormous engineering, the pacific war on a lot levels. And the army is dealing with the bulk of that guerrilla warfare, especially in the philippines. Is the army is a big part of that medical care on a scale even a generation earlier, civil affairs, mortuary affairs, dealing with captivity, and then, of course, Ground Combat operations of nearly every type, every distinction, every kind of brutal reality in sport and some of the worlds most inhospitable terrain and some of the worst places on the planet. Youre plunged into kind of elemental death struggle whose base nature. I think its fair to say few americans really grasp at the time and probably ever since as well. So many of those soldiers had also kind of glimpsed the sort of troubling future. There are a lot of harbingers, and i think thats partially whats so fascinating about, studying the the army in the pacific theater, because it really is so relevant to the 21st century, too. And so that point i was making that, the army does really the vast majority, the fighting, the plurality of the dying and all the other stuff to it is, i think, instructive, because when you look at the armys experience, you can see a lot of the subsequent history that happens. Like what . Well irregular warfare, guerrilla warfare in the philippines or in the South Pacific or in china, in burma or wherever it would be this sort of moral ambiguities of combat. Youre fighting an enemy that recognizes no geneva convention, as you would think of it, that really actively wants to shoot medical personnel, that treats prisoners horribly. And the americans have to come face to face with their own, you know, tendency to brutality, to against an enemy like that, and wonder what rules do we follow . How do we deal with this . I think its fair to say, weve weve confronted that ever since in all of our wars. So this is not, you know, a sort mark of queensbury kind of war theres a lot of racial strife, theres postcolonial uncertainty, theres flawed alliances and just this sort of byzantine struggle for influence in asia and the pacific. And id venture to say thats a crucial enterprise that the us has never really mastered, nor has it relinquished. And it remains very important today. So with the exception of grenada, panama and mogadishu every american war since World War Two has been fought somewhere, the asian landmass. And thats probably an accident. Ground fighting accounted for 90 of american war deaths since World War Two at the very time when nuclear weapons, air power, Power Technology was supposed to make Ground Fighting obsolete, actually, opposite happened. And of course, most of those deaths were suffered by Army Soldiers. So i dont propose to walk you through the armys whole 45 experiences tonight for that course, i got to read the book. Thats what i always i mean, i still recommend that, you know, and you really cant get the flavor of unless you actually buy it and listen to it. It read it many, many times, know take it to heart. I mean, thats obviously the best way to do this, but i certainly cant you a few highlights by looking at a few key personalities a few of the battles so of course we have to begin with this who really needs very little introduction for me . General douglas macarthur, you may notice hes a five star general in this and this particular picture when was he promoted to five star general in december 1944. So by the invasion of luzon the next month. Hes a five star. And, of course certainly by his own estimation, hes the main character the theater. Hes the main character. Wherever he goes, no matter what he does hes an olympian figure. Hes a byzantine figure. Hes, you know megalomaniacal figure on a lot levels, too. But, you know, hes hes been through a lot by 1945, certainly a long army career, very distinguished army career. But i mean, in World War Two, he famously his military forces are are defeated in the philippines in 1942. His commanded out by roosevelt to to go to australia. And he his forces. And so macarthur had spent the better part of the next two plus years leading military forces across new guinea and elsewhere with the purpose of getting back to the philippines. And he had he had of course this by october 1944 on an island called later in the sort of mid section of the philippine islands. And so hes on the cusp by 1945 of what he sees as the of this whole thing the liberation of lose on the largest and often called island of the philippines and really the place he had called home especially manila. So this is a very complex due to of course and it is one of his close aides once said of him. He said, none of us really macarthur. We all saw fragments. The man i think theres a great deal of truth to that. He was remarkably courageous. He was epically conniving. He believed with an almost evangelical intensity, that americas future lay in the pacific and asia. And i dont know that hes really about that, but he also thinks, well, im in this room, so it must be the most important room in the house, right theres a little bit of that, too. His pilot, lieutenant dusty rhodes, who probably knew him as well as anybody said of them, he had some feeling that he was a of destiny. He seemed to believe that he was especially protected so that he could fulfill a mission. What mission . Well, of the liberation of the philippines, which he saw as a modern crusade and i think crusade was kind of a small word for what he really envisioned here. A redemption on some levels, too, certainly for the us, but also for him personally. He loved the people of the philippines. It was his home and also to him liberating the philippines really almost in some ways mattered more than defeating japan, you know, then going in tokyo on some level. So his two key instruments to carry out this crusade were his army commanders, both of whom were highly experienced combat leaders. By 1945 and had an develop a kind of intense rivalry. So the first one, of course, is that the guy on the left, Lieutenant General Walter Kruger, is on the left. Yeah, hes on the left. You standing there . The naval officer with him is vice admiral thomas kinkaid, who is a very much a leading naval who works very closely with macarthur and his forces during the war. Kruger is a fascinating guy, very much a selfmade person. He was actually born in germany when he was an adolescent his father died. His father was in the german army and his mother moved him here actually to saint louis. They immigrated here. They came here ostensibly because kruger had an uncle who owned a brewery here in, saint louis. So thats a big part of the germanamerican in the 19th century. He was born in 1881, so he comes here as i said, in his adolescence and in 1898. War breaks out with spain. So walter decides that going to join the us army as a 17 year old private and that begins a military career that does not end until 1946. Incredible isnt it 17 year old private he earns a commission and he gets commissioned by the way in the philippines, you know, serving there in the philippineamerican war, which was a basically an war to try and suppress filipino that the americans successfully did that. So he knew a lot about the philippines and about luzon. And so interesting thing about him, i mean, hes had to remake himself as an immigrant. He was very proud to speak english with hardly an accent at all. Obviously, he spoke german. He spoke spanish, spoke french. He this kind of military wonk writing deep dive strategy and policy papers and whatnot in military journals. And the interesting thing is that not only did he have no west point pedigree, like many of his peers did course he had no college degree, he had no high school diploma, and he becomes a four star general. I venture to. Say thats never going to happen again. So hes certainly certainly a selfmade kind of guy and hes obviously got a deep affinity for the average soldier. Thats a real strength because he was one. And so he understands that. But hes also the word often associated with him is cautious. And theres a lot of truth to that methodical. Hes exacting, hes brusk. Hes remarkably rude at times and kind of close minded on some levels. Those are his weaknesses. But but he also is a very honest Dwight Eisenhower served as one of his key aides in right before World War Two. And he once said of him few generals were physically or more active, relentless driving himself. He had little need of driving others. They were quick to follow his example. One of his commanders once assessed, i think, very insightful he was a good soldier and a good strategist and a very sound thinker. But he didnt have much of a personality i think thats clear. He just didnt warm up a room. He would say things that youd just be like, how can you be so, you know, dense so you know, how can you be so i mean, thats sort of the downside. Army. He didnt suffer fools gladly, but he has an extraordinarily good heart. Hes very bright. Hes actually when you really delve into his biography, you really see his warm side. He was his his wife, grace was his true soul. He was a really good husband. He was an excellent, warm father to his three children. So, Walter Kruger had much to recommend him on the personal level. But when he was wearing his professional hat, then it was business, you know. So you didnt warm up to him that much. But sometimes would see his human side come out with enlisted soldiers. Thats who we really related to on some level. So an example id give you, this happened in new guinea. He was supposed to inspect an Infantry Battalion in particular an Infantry Company that everybody on his staff assumed was going to be training really hard for the next operation. When he shows up. The soldiers actually were in the middle of a very spirited volleyball game. So their commanders were like, oh, my god, whats the general going to do. Hes going to be angry. Hes really going to chew us out and. You know, theres this tension. And then kruger sort of sits back and sits down on a log and says go on. I want to see who won the game, you know, and theyre like, oh my god. And, you know, the volleyball game goes on. And then his staff is just sort of like breathing a sigh of relief. It gives you a sense that hes going to be on his best behavior around the enlisted men. Its the and colonels that he really is rude with so it on which is interesting it was his sixth army led the invasion and dominated the campaign to follow his his peer his colleague is this guy, Lieutenant General robert eichelberger, who i mentioned briefly moments ago. And of course, hes a very different background, although they have more in common than they would to admit they become big rivals. Eichelberger was the of a very successful full Civil War Veteran of the union side in ohio. His father was a successful lawyer and gentleman farmer eichelberger came from a big he was the youngest of five siblings. And eichelberger father like like many parents thought especially many veterans thought, well, my kids are soft, you know, never going to make it in the world. And i really need toughen them up and, you know, all this kind of and so he, like turned ideas into a sort of a reality on some level. You known and competing for his affection in a and literally games which theyre competing well youre not going be able to compete with a nine years old or whatever and so bobby was fiercely especially his father and so he grows with this sort of burning kind desire to make something of himself and, show everybody what he can do. And the army represents that for him, he goes west point. He graduates from west point. 1909 and has a really interesting career during world war one. He did not go to the western front to serve in combat. Instead he went to russia in the ill fated expedition to try and snuff out the bolshevik regime, often called the polar bear expedition britain, france and japan were part of this. Thats interesting too. And so eichelberger saw combat there. He got the distinguished service cross. He was an intel officer and quite interestingly, he was able to study japanese, which he files for later. He was charming, he was generous. He warm, he had friends all over. He was like impossible to dislike he had a soul mate name, emma gudger, who he married. They were just like this for the rest of their lives. They had no kids, they had each other. They bobs career, they they kept in touch through the whole war. Sometimes he wrote to her two or three times a day during World War Two. So eichelberger is a guy who believes in, you know, in leadership from the front and fast dash maneuver kind of warfare. Rapid thrust is, very much a hard charging, aggressive commander, though not reckless, not reckless with peoples lives. Hes very sensitive to the average, too. And so why have they conflicted . Because kruger is often rude to eichelberger. That eichelberger conceive of that how you could be to somebody. What is the purpose of that . Why do you act this way . He took great offense to that and he thought the kruger was just simply too cautious too methodical not inspiring that he didnt lead from the front. Kruger thought eichelberger was too solicitous, indulgent with his staff and weaker officers were not getting it done. You know, eichelberger didnt necessarily agree. He has actually a remarkably similar philosophy of warfare with his point classmate. The more famous george patton, with whom he will correspond much of World War Two. I found a lot of letters them. They had an amazing rapport and i think they were remarkably similar. So its like eichelberger is sort of like the version of patton without all those, you know, with all the thought that the soldier slapping and all the all the sort of things thatll make you embarrassed, pr wise. Hes great pr wise, and hes also really good in combat. As one of his friends once put close around, he said one of the most he described it as one of the most colorful and attractive has been my good fortune to meet general eichenberg at a rare way. People he enjoyed people all kinds of people and because of his lively curiosity and basic optimism, he never an old man. Above all, he was honest. So he was the commander, the eighth army. And so macarthur about the friction and he uses it to play these guys off against each other to get larger results for his theater. So where those begins play out is of course the invasion of luzon, which happens january 9th, 1945. Macarthur called the invasion day s day, not he really had come to of resent and loathe eisenhower, who he who had once worked him, and he thought of as disloyal and had gotten too much notoriety for the european theater and all that. So he also kind of childishly his invasions, different codenames know so never dday always asked day or day or whatever it would be so four divisions. As you see there are four u. S. Army divisions landed on the 9th of january. And they land almost the japanese couldnt do much to stop them except you did see the kamikaze plane attacks against the fleet that he carried these four divisions to shore. And thats a lot of ships it killed 503 sailors, damaged 24 ships, though it didnt deter they didnt sink any. They killed. Lieutenant general herbert lumsden, who was a british Liaison Officer to macarthurs headquarters and universe really like this, was devastating to macarthur and many in his staff who really general lumsden for good reason but as bad as this was the japanese could not stop the invasion and fact what happened is that they used up all of their kamikazes had on site in in the philippines and the husband and the rest especially that theyre going to unleash on okinawa. A couple of three months later. So famously so on japanese side, as you see there, theyre under commander name general tommy yokoyama shota. Now hes got 287,000 soldiers that are spread around luzon there. And he is physically located in the northern part of the island. And theyre mainly to fight inland and just sort of bleed you the best. They can. So sixth army gets ashore. Okay, but the challenge youre facing is that youve got to inform this task of unloading freight, moving supplies, developing airfields, the roads. Theres 11,000 short tons of supplies and moving across the land. Guy and where they had landed every day its a major job to develop depots and rail lines all those nuts and bolts of warfare in a big way. They do. This is filipino labor and filipino guerrillas who are a huge part of this battle. And everywhere else in the philippines, theyre an enormous force multiplier. They are your recon element. Theyre light infantry. Theyre theyre getting the support locals for you. The its important to understand take major role in their own liberation in this campaign and thats the way macarthur wanted it and its a course of voting the future of the independence of the philippines, which theyll get 1946. So you get a little bit of a closer look. And this is a map from the book eye corps. You can see of focus is on holding that northern shoulder holding that northern flank while 14th corps under majorgeneral oscar, who always seemed to get the sort of toughest assignments, begins to try and advance towards. So thats their so i corps will sort of hold off any are going to attack from the north while 14th corps begins to kind of advance steadily southeast towards manila well to macarthurs frustration kruger handled the the Fourth Quarter advance with a kind of characteristic methodical caution. Kruger saw this was a battle in which you would get ashore youd shore up your logistics, you develop situation. Youd feel out the japanese opposition, how many they had, what they were going to do, and you would annihilate them. Macarthur saw it, i think more properly at the strategic level, as you know, vital to get the clark what was called clark field. These are airfields northwest of manila and manila itself manila was important, of course, on many levels politically symbolically to liberate the philippines and that is its capital. Yes, but you desperately need it as supply harbor to sustain these massive armies. Macarthurs armies, as this thing develops, are the second largest concentration of us ground in World War Two. Second only to eisenhower in in france at that time, and eventually in germany, of course, to so, yeah, i mean, this is an enormous force that has to be sustained. And you really need manila to do that. So macarthur wants quickly and yet kruger is not moving as fast. Hes worried about the possibility japanese flanking attacks coming from in the mountains to the east as his troops advance down the road and up to manila. Valid concern, but if they come out of the mountains now, theyre really vulnerable against us. Air strikes, artillery counterattacks, all of that kind of stuff that you can do. And theyre not very mobile. They dont have much armor. They dont have much artillery, you know. So the concern is valid, not enough to to have this kind of slow advance fairness to kruger. There are the biggest problem he has on some levels is bridging. Theres 217 timber bridges that are out between the landing beaches in manila. And that takes engineers a lot of time to rebuild those bridges, especially vehicle traffic. So thats all true. But hes just not constitutionally suited to embrace major risk. Hes just wired that way. So in exasperate to macarthur tries to prod him and he even go so far as to locate his own headquarters ahead of Kruger Sixth Army headquarters. Its not like were out here way ahead of you. Why arent you catching up . You know. Doesnt work. So i would say maybe, stepping back from all this, looking as an historian and were all of course we know it. All right. Their story and note all we have all the answers. But i would really say that in truth, macarthur has only himself to blame for this if you wanted that kind of quick dash advance on manila, which he does quite properly youve got to get someone whos suited that hes got another commander in theater who suited for that. Its eichelberger okay. So in a way, hes miscast thats the play heres your guy for set piece wellplanned methodical operations annihilation style kind of stuff. Hes not your guy for a quick, aggressive advance. Thats sort of the nut of the problem. As one of macarthurs aides, Bonner Fellers later put it, eichelberger would have gone and hit them when they were retreating. And thats exactly right. Sonstead what macarthur does is he unleashes eichelberger from the opposite direction. So bear with me as i turn away from you. But you can see eighth army there. And then the 11th airborne division. Lanzer, a. U. Boom. Now thats on january 31st. So they still havent gotten to at that point, 14th corps is coming from the north, and now the 11th airborne division, which is like 8000 guys, a light infantry of glider troops and paratroopers are going to invade in the sort of lightning quick amphibious invasion followed up by an airborne drop at a place called guy type. What you see portrayed on the map, the little parachute and up and then turn north and go straight along the road, net into manila. They outthink the outwit. They outfight japanese at every turn. Eichelberger is like there at the front, working very closely. The division commander, majorgeneral joe swing and they just do remark cabal work to get basically into the southern of manila where eventually they run into something called the jenko line. The japanese had expected the main american advance to come from the south incorrectly, so they had built layered urban fortifications with pillboxes and whatnot. There there were very formidable. So the 11th airborne ends up fighting in the middle of this morass, urban morass, and steadily advancing, but theyre not able to take manila just themselves. And they suffer pretty heavy casualties, as you can imagine. So, by the way, that division was nicknamed the angels. It was a sarcastic nickname because like people pretty much everywhere, they loved to get into fights. They loved to drink. They loved to get into trouble off the line and all that kind stuff. So the joke in the division was, well, how many of our angels ended up in jail this weekend . You know, that kind of thing. So, so they embraced that nickname sort of their their symbolic thing. They also had a reputation, by the way, for a lot of midnight requisitioning. Shall we saying so woe to the unit that was adjacent to the 11th airborne that did not guard its food its, equipment and other valuables because it would end up elsewhere missing. But were great in combat. So instead of abandoning manila, as macarthur had expected, the japanese are now going to turn the city into an enormous battleground. And that has a whole story to it that i wont get in a great deal of depth. Again, you have to read the book for, but its a monumental the course that just eventually reflects the dilemma in liberating the philippines, which is this, you kind of have to destroy it, to liberate it. And its so similar what happens in france, in belgium in luxembourg, portions of italy, holland, you know, the locals have to pay the price. They lose their lives. Sometimes they lose their homes, their property, theyre uprooted they become refugees. And so thats dilemma in it, in invading philippines and maybe trying secure manila, you may get into that situation and the japanese can make you do that. And what happens at manila. So throughout february, you see on the map the First Cavalry Division and the 37th Infantry Division basically fight their way into manila from the north in. What becomes one of the most intense urban battles in in all of military history, about 17,000 japanese holdouts there under rear admiral sanji obuchi. So its mainly naval guys dismounted from their ships. Theyve a lot of the ordnance. Theyve set it up in the the urban battleground. Its very formidable. The fighting raids, room to room to house, block to block. Youre supported by mortars, artillery tanks, eventually airstrikes. Youre trying not to destroy manila, but you have to, you know, otherwise youll get everybody killed and eventually, you know, youre going to have infantry assault squads with browning, automatic rifles, bazookas, satchel charges, grenades, submachine guns, and then flamethrowers, combat was just intimate, bloody, horrifying. Sergeant warren macarthur, the fifth cavalry regiment, recalled, he said, kick in the door, stick in the flamethrower nozzle, roast the japanese alive. I can still hear them screaming. I can still smell the burning flesh. Sometimes the americans even poured gasoline into japanese controlled buildings and set them afire, roasting everyone inside. Even then, according to one intel officer, the infantrymen had to quote actually enter dugouts, caverns, pillboxes and annihilate them before resistance cease. So kind of horrifying traumatic intimacy characterize the fighting you see represented on our map here. This is more of sort of what it look like youve just got this rex urban landscape. Theres japanese bodies, you know, just just lying everywhere and to guard against ambushes, dead us soldiers pump bullets into the heads of nearly every corpse. Then them with lime to unsuccessfully dampen their stench. And perhaps the worst aspect of the was the terrible destruction wrought on the people of manila in the city landscape. This is a major city of 1. 1 million people. And again, these arent pleasant images, but this is what battle was about 110 square miles. Youre trying to take the worst of the fighting took in the heart of downtown portrayed by the map that we just saw. But untold thousands of people are or wounded by the intense firepower from both sides, especially the american. In one climactic barrage, the americans utilize 370,000 pounds of ordnance just in one climactic barrage alone. Just imagine that. Imagine all that being shipped, processed, moved and then fired off like that. Thats what this war was. And the armys doing most of so many others, course, many others in manila fell prey to a series of horrible deliberate, savage japanese atrocities. You will boogies hq issued orders to destroy everything docks, warehouses, factory people on the pretext the filipinos aiding the americans. He and the other sanctioned, literally just killing all, all people on the with the exception of Japanese Military personnel, japanese civilians will be put to death, declared one chilling order. The order even included instructions how to dispose of the bodies and advice how to kill without using much ammo. So by burning by putting people into a building and burning the building down, by stabbing people to death theres, of course, rape and torture going on to babies being killed horribly. Some of the perpetrators i found kept ghoulish tallies on how many people they killed using guerilla as a euphemism for, you know, a manila civilian. One noted that he had stabbed ten people to death and helped burn 150 others. Another soldier wrote the innocence i possessed at the time of leaving the homeland has long since disappeared. Now im a hardened sinner and my sword is stained with blood. May god forgive me may my mother forgive me. So whats going on here . I mean, these guys didnt come here to to launch these atrocities. Many of them are just ordinary guys. So what happens . Well, he and many thousands others had grown to hate the philippine as race traitors. They thought to themselves. I mean, when the war begins, many are very excited and very idealist in saying, you know what, we are going to liberate asians and people in the pacific from white sponsored imperialism. Were going to do that wherever. We happen to be in asia wherever happened to be in the pacific especially in the philippines, where the americans have kept the other people there under imperialism. And they find out in many places, including the philippines, that theyre not very welcome. In fact, japanese were just coming in as conquerors of a different stripe. And that was the reality of and very exploitive and all that. And locals picked up on that. But in the philippines, you have the subplot of a place was reasonably proamerican and would become even more proamerican as the war went on. So you start to see the japanese to really turn against the people. There was an idealistic lieutenant who had come to the archipelago he felt to liberate fellow asians from white imperialism. And instead, by 1945, he hates all filipinos. I found his diary very. And he wrote at one point hes deriding the filipinos as quote, orientals, who will not act like orientals, who have Neither Initiative nor national soul. Theyre a miserable sort of people. They are therefore our enemies and their presence. Asia must be eliminated to the last. Well, heres a guy who there thinking im a liberator and by the time he writes this, hes a killer of the first order. And so thats kind of whats happening in manila it is one of those horrifying things that happens in all of World War Two, all of modern history. The americans do what they can to to help the survivors the best they know how. But theyre also fighting a battle to its very difficult. The fighting finally petered out in early march. U. S. Troops kind of 16,655 japanese dead, about 100,000 manila residents were dead. Of course, many were killed by the firepower, but really the majority by these japanese atrocities. Horrible. The us lost 1010 killed and over 5600 wounded. The city just destroyed took us engineers months to restore the shattered harbor, you know and of course this was quite necessary for the campaign follow that will follow and begin rebuilding the shattered landscape the infrastructure the humanitarian operation that youve got going on here in addition to supplying your armies and. Again, i keep making the point its the army really juggling all those balls. So the campaign in the philippines was simply war on through the spring and summer of 1945. And so at this point, as the fighting rages on eichelberger, the eighth army gets the assignment to liberate the central and southern part of the archipelago. Initially a three month amphibious campaign that is really unequaled in all of military history. This is what i alluded before of 35 plus amphibious invasions of varying sizes. They liberate cebu pan, a most of mindanao in the course of this campaign is absolutely a remarkable thing. They liberate 7 million filipinos, filipino guerrillas do this to working alongside eichelberger. Hes at the front. Hes moving around. Hes going back and forth by plane by ship, hes controlling operations close by and at distance. Incredible. Over 2000 dead and 7000 wounded americans in exchange for the liberation of 7 million people. The masterpiece amphibious warfare, but considered kind of strategically because it doesnt necessarily contribute to getting to tokyo. So its sort of been forgotten, but it really was pretty remarkable. In the meantime, sixth army is dealing with the rest of the armistice on luzon, you know, and so its just its just a day after day slog of soldiers fighting. And that of terrain. Notice, by the way, the the guerrilla right there acting as your kind of scout, its very typical of how the american combat units operating. So youre in jungles, ravines and the like. Some of the most remote areas in all the philippines in all the pacific, youre often ill supplied and subsisting on a k ration or two per day conditions, appalling heat, insects, mud, privation, troops struggling with disease with combat fought the usual battles of annihilation against japanese who usually would fight to the death, the violence of it all. Just a lot of terrain like look at those steep mountains. Think of a heat and then the violence of facing the japanese the firepower. Absolutely just just almost kind of mind boggling that the americans are using is they just kind of blast and burn the japanese from hilltop to hilltop. Heres one microcosmic example in four months on the line, the 130th infantry regiment of the 33rd Infantry Division expended 44,000 mortar shells, almost 6400 105 millimeter selfpropelled, almost 30,000 hand grenades, and point 4 million machine gun bullets just in a four month period. Regimental staff calculated the expenditure of, on average, 300 pounds of ordnance for every inflicted on the japanese. Its like a backpack. Its just its kind of mind blowing, isnt. We have underestimated the importance material power and are suffering the consequences. One japanese survivor, sadly and i think quite insightfully noted in his diary this, is definitely though an infantryman fight. Guys like this that you see here and there were never enough of them infantry were suffering 90 of the casualties on luzon. Krugers sixth Army Reporter close to 38,000 battle casualties in the course of the campaign that included 8140 killed in action and 157 missing. But this actually disingenuous and did not really give you the full scale of the human losses in a six month period. His army. 93,400 men to non battle causes that meant yellow fever combat fatigue dysentery trench foot. All these are combat related things especially for infantry. So the losses were really then than than the actual official battle casualties will tell you. Now, most, of course, survived, but still youre down with malaria for a month or youre down with combat and maybe that stays with you the rest your life in the form of ptsd, you know, all of these kinds of things. Those are really battle casualties. So this terrible attrition compares really, i would argue, with the gloomy fall in 1944 for eisenhowers armies, the Argonne Forest in world war one, grants Overland Campaign in the civil war in 1864, very casualty intensive, just a tough slog. So yamamotos armies slowly, steadily kind of died in the summer 1945. He doesnt formally surrender his armies until after the japanese government finally did so. September 2nd, 1945. Quite famously, of course, aboard the uss missouri. So only in the wake of the formal surrender, william marshall, to come down from from the jungles where where hes hiding out or where basically dealing with great privation to finally lay down his arms a point of great honor to him. He by the way, some of you may he will be held accountable for the atrocities in manila, though he did not order them and actually tried to prevent them but he couldnt control them. He was nowhere near the scene and the communication wasnt good. And in the end he was held responsible for people under his command did. And tried and executed in 1946 for war crimes, as was chief of staff, Lieutenant General muto. So in the wake of that formal surrender that we know as vj day in 1945, hundreds of thousands japanese servicemen finally did lay down their arms over the vast expanse of their former empire. And its an enormous job for allied military authorities and the japanese government. By the end of 1946, on this map gives you a little flavor of this. Some 3. 2 million military personnel and nearly 2. 8 million civilian had surrendered. And in most instances where repatriated back to japan for the course of our lives the monumental war that now done generated many legacies most of which remain with us today. Ill just mention a few first you know the army transforms from a provincial small force into a modern, lavishly supplied, rich, mechanized army, arguably the most potent, powerful ground arm on the planet. The war was just beginning. In asia, youre on the cusp of half a century of postcolonial strife thats about to happen. Bloodshed, upheaval costing at a minimum. By latest estimates, 10 million lives in in the postWorld War Two era. The chinese civil war is perhaps your greatest legacy of the pacific asia, an enormously important in which, of course, the communist win in china by 1949. And i would argue that is the most important event of the cold war. And we might even argue its the most important event of modern history. And certainly we are still paying the price for that one. Now, that is definitely a legacy of World War Two. And of course, you can say that that reality contributes to two other major american wars. Follow the korean war and, the vietnam war. That never would have happened if. China had not become a communist country. And of course, it leads to by this time by certainly in the cold war, but still today, another direct legacy, an american led antichinese alliance spanning from the horn of africa. All the way to an occupied transformed japan. You will also see another legacy of blood brothers style alliances with and new zealand very, very important, transformational time for those countries. 1 million americans either serve australia or pass through in the course of the war. Enormously consequential for both countries. Finally, the savagery of the combat has set the tone ever since you ask no corners, youve got no corners. And thats generally how our wars have been ever since the pacific sort of gives you that harbinger. And as ill repeat, from korea to afghanistan. 90 of us combat deaths have in Ground Combat. Just as, of course, the plurality did here. So the american victory came at a fearful cost. Some 111,606 americans were killed or went missing in the war against japan the plurality of the deaths. Of course, as i mentioned were among the army, the Army Ground Forces had a 2. 3 death rate for the 1. 8 million who served. So those whose remains have been recovered were scattered among 133 cemeteries all over the pacific and asia. There were nine. In china, there were 55 in burma and india. And so overworked graves over grades registration teams had buried them carefully, respectfully as possible, sometimes under difficult conditions, horrible thankless job, some stared wide eyed one of these Graves Registration soldiers later recalled others, had died in the middle of a scream and their mouths open. Others had no face at. All the work was nightmarish and it aided hearts on 16 1946, Congress Passed a law creating the return the World War Two dead program, an attempt to recover and as many of the dead as possible all over the globe. So the very existence of this program, i would say, epitomizes the countrys its security, its republican small. Our commitment to the value of its citizens lives that that that the government this to its citizens to do what it could with the remains as respectfully possible to do the families wishes and to give accountability so it also reflected, i think, the almost universal american value, the importance of recovering corporeal remains as a kind of tangible, tangible commemorative symbol of the mourning. So its the next of kin, of course, who are going to make the decisions about a lot. This and the main decision you would face with next of kin is whether to return the remains of your loved one back home or leave them in place somewhere overseas at an American Battle Monuments Commission cemetery run by the government all over the globe. So this led to, as you can imagine to anguish grief stricken arguments, the proper thing to do and who the real Decision Maker was and all that. You know, these are people who in many cases just completely, you know, almost and prostrate with grief. Well, by 1947, they were to have filled Army Quartermaster form 345 to just to tell government what they wanted to do. 61 chose to have them return. So you an enormous effort to make this happen just as the army had done so much of the fighting, all over the globe, it now took the lead in carrying out this program. And theres about 13,000 soldiers involved all over the world. Recovery teams spread far and wide, literally to the end of the sometimes in really dangerous places to recover dead from small graves and contemporaries cemeteries. The job was exacting. It was almost ghoulish, similar the way the americans fought the war and sometimes the recovering from cemeteries like this. But similar to the way the americans had fought the war, they expended huge amounts of equipment and material crews sprayed a powdery, hardening compound into body cavities to minimize tension fluid leakage, 2 to five pounds of compound per body, one gallon of deodorant spray per 20 bodies, one pair of gloves for every 3 to 5 bodies by the late summer in 1947, they had recovered and processed 72,005, 252 remains in the pacific area. So there were about 30,000 plus gathered for disposition. And in manila, about 3500. In calcutta, in india, over 23,000 on saipan in the marianas in about thousand in yokohama, japan, among many other places at last, on september 30th, 1947, the first set of 3027 remains were readied. Return aboard u. S. Army transport honda not which you see here it was a 4000 ton liberty ship that was going to be the first to move remains. There would be ten other funeral ships would follow in the in the months ahead the crew of the honda not had meticulously cleaned the ship and they had slathered it with a fresh of paint for these very distinguished guests. The remains were now ensconced in beautifully constructed caskets. Ten days later, october 10th, 1947, honda not majestically glided under the Golden Gate Bridge into San Francisco bay. A cannon boomed in the distance. The ship dropped anchor opposite marina green, where hundreds gathered for a somber memorial service. The group included the mayor, the secretary of the navy, general mark clark. Port cruise unloaded the now flag draped caskets and loaded them under specially fitted railcars for transportation of their various destinations telegrams were sent next of kin informing them their imminent arrival. This was very important to let them know whats going on to the precise schedule to hold to that schedule. You can imagine how sensitive many of the families would have been and how tough this was for of them. Each casket was escorted by a specially trained serviceman of equal or higher rank, all of whom had been prepared for this duty and to deal with the families they were to take no drinks at all, even during a, you know, gatherings with the family, they were always to remain in uniform and in proper military and be a sympathetic they could and and sort of bond with the family for lack of a better way to put it. And most of them did an incredible job. The army had established Major Distribution Centers around. The country that read like a travelog america, San Francisco. Loma, california. San antonio worth. Kansas city. Columbus, ohio philadelphia, new york city and charlotte. Just to name a few before groups and small in major cities, midsized towns, remote outpost the like the caskets were ceremony tinsley buried with full military wherever the mexican chose at a price of 564. 50 apiece. 78 were buried in a private or a family plot, the rest in a National Military Center Cemetery like Jefferson Barracks or arlington. To your soak ceremonies. Theyre buried before groups large and small. Some publicly, many almost anonymously. Among those now interred in their home soil were many thousands of Army Soldiers from every corner of the asia war included private james hansen, 192nd tank battalion, who died of beriberi as a p. O. W. Sergeant frank simmons, who died in the South Pacific and pneumonia. Pfc norman petch our killed in action with the 27th Infantry Division on saipan in the summer 1944. Pfc lewis fada, once captain of his High School Football team killed in action at buna in december 1942, a battle that was commanded by eichelberger. Sergeant johns angrily, 37th Infantry Division killed in action. The ferocious fighting at manila that weve discussed. Lieutenant buford cooper, killed in a vehicle accident in burma on the stilwell road that led that linked india to china and monroe hicks of sikeston missouri, whose hometown paper referred to him as both a returning hero and, quote, a colored soldier. In 1951, after four years and a shipment home of 171,000 americans from europe and, the pacific and the expenditure nearly 164 million. The return the World War Two dead repatriation officially ended, but i would suggest you that the mourning never really did. Thank you. Id be glad to take questions. For 130. I had to know about that declaration. Quote because there just really were that this was not my question but did we need to send a vietnam to vietnam 30 . Yes. So ever since ever since World War Two, all of our dead who can be retrieved, accounted for, are brought home. It is world war is one in two in which you see interment overseas under the American Battle Monuments Commission. So yeah mean isnt it mind blowing this this massive program that went on for four years and know so its just its just an enormous effort of so many people brought home and also then process for burial overseas where remain today and by the way the biggest American Cemetery from World War Two maintained today is the one in manila. So i think tells you a lot. With the Army Staff Sergeant stationed in the philippines and essentially performed his duty, maybe due to his coping skills. Right. That my on a blind date just before he shipped out they and so immediately they letters back and forth the next year his main goal was trying to get home once the war ended based on a point system. And i think right i think in the service and in combat service so he was waiting his turn the korean point to get back to the states which he did that saint louis and jan weary of 1946 immediately propose and they were married in september 1946. Grants and then he and my mother changed he did not say my mothers letters to him. My mother saved the letters. It was a month. Her most treasured possessions. Of course, my parents. My question is why historical value do they have anything military had been redacted from an earlier work kind of organization. Do you think would benefit from . Would they only take the originals . But i scanned them and i hate for them to just get lost in the stuff. Absolutely. They should know how much my and grandson. Mm hmm. Yeah. So absolutely. I mean, as far as their value, i mean, thats sort of in the eye of the beholder sometimes because you never know until you see the letter and. Youd be amazed how insightful some of them are helpful historically. You never know what could be interesting to another historian versus me or whatever. Or just on the personal side of seeing how he changes or not, or what he tends to say. So i tend to think any letter is going to be valuable on some level and. It should be preserved now toward that. I think for from army point of view, the best place for it is probably the Army Heritage Education Center in carlisle. Now, you can probably do originals or scans, whatever it would be, whatever youre comfortable with, but that would be one example. Theres theres tons others. But if you if email me, you know, id be glad to go into that more detail with you yeah glad he came home. Yeah thats thats a really good i wonder about the psyche of the japanese so if youre if youre committed all the draft is in the marine corps and i saw that the japanese for all their food to say all japan. Excuse sorry when they were gone way i refused such an honor i dont know theres something the japanese and they were to die and everybody had to general people told me that they were trying to talk. The americans of dropping the bomb. They pretty sure that they thought the japanese to surrender and they think that would be necessary. Just hold on. Dont drop the bomb or do i dont know that even true. No, i mean that. I mean, i wish it were true, but but now there is no like theres no theres no deliberation that sense the dropping the atomic bomb is sort of one more weapon you can use to try bring this terrible war to an end from point of view, you know, we can debate whether it was necessary or whatever. But i will tell you this, the japanese government was not to accede to the potsdam declaration, which the allies issued in july 1945. You know, basically wanting unconditional surrender. They were not going to accede to that until the atomic until the so and the soviet union entered war more or less at the same time. Then of course, you start to see some changes there. One of the things i go into in some depth in the book is post vj theres a coup launched by by field great japanese officers of hero, the emperors personal bodyguard. They killed their commander, a major general. And they try to take the thinking of taking hirohito himself hostage to try and change his and keep the war going so they could have succeeded. Who knew . Fortunately, they didnt. So theres still some japanese who really want to continue fighting, even post atomic bombing, postsoviet entry and all that. The mindset in, the psyche. Well, you were expected to, as a japanese soldier culturally to fight to the death that. That was what honor meant. And so this was the peer pressure you would have in your unit. Now, how this leads to atrocities, i think, is a different issue, though i, tried to maybe give you a little insight into that in this sort of disillusionment you tend to see among some japanese. But i think maybe theres another and this is admittedly dime store psychologist of stuff, but maybe theres another sort of element of this, too, thats hard to quantify in that in the Japanese Armed forces, especially an enlisted soldier or private, you would have brutalize quite a bit with corporal, with humiliation. And so i do think that theres some level of transference of that sometimes on people that now you can brutalize and whatnot. And i think that was especially true in 1942 when the japanese take the philippines. What is troubling to me especially about the manila atrocities, this i mean, we all know about the rape of nanking that happens in 1937. Its one of the worst atrocities of all time. Quarter of a million chinese dead and all that. But you could stepping away from the human side, kind of quote this in the sense that the japanese, they were coming as conquerors and were now in charge here. And this is how things are going to run and dont even cross us. Okay, not good. But you could at least sort of get within that in manila. They know theyre going to die. They know theyre going to lose. And they still do these atrocities when you think youd be the other way around wanting to treat people better, thats whats really confounding to me about it. Those are us. First of all, thank you so much for being here. This is the nephew of legend. Better and more Important Research being really always good to say thank you for urging the puerto pacific is something ive been shouting from the rooftops. You and me both. You. Along long. My question is really obviously this result other quickly, theres always something new, right where you feel that the history. Of the pacific islanders. Were there any particular subjects maybe were able to control much as youd like to look things the people the yeah yeah absolutely and i mean the 37 Division Amazing history know fighting from the South Pacific onward and through manila and whatnot and they definitely turn up a lot of those trilogies, as you know. And it is an honor to write about them. Yeah. I mean, i think in terms of where the historiography goes, i think personally on the guerrilla side that that is an is well known and thats really relevant. Mean basically youve got spontaneous filipino organizations that are that are coming about of 1942 and youve got americans sometimes working with them almost in a role equivalent to what special forces later do. So i kind of think thats a side of the war that isnt as well known, maybe as it should be. And you also see something in the same thing in burma, too the sas is working with tribesmen in north burma and they are force multiplier for what known as merrills marauders in 1944. So, you know, i just think from the sort of irregular warfare side, theres a lot to fill there. And i think also in my opinion from the logistical side, but its not sexy. You know, its its hard to approach beans and bullets side of war and make that really interesting on its own face. I tell you, theres a human story there, too. And i think thats thats maybe how that could be done. Just it just might happen. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Youre you have this completely alien and alternative history. What would you see the u. S. Army in the making room for choosing to go to the philippines for themselves . The beginning of the history of the. Yeah, great question. So its funny because, last fall i really looked into this very deeply because i gave a about what was called operation causeway the potential invasion of formosa, what we call taiwan, gave a presentation to a group of senior level army officers. And because obviously thats relevant, obviously todays world, unfortunately of what invading formosa or taiwan would really mean. And so what emerged for me and again only into the realm of opinion here is, a picture of kind of if do if you dont in a way, because if its either or the philippines or taiwan theres really warts in either direction. Formosa and im using the 1944 or 45 term would have represented an enormous expenditure of combat manpower probably exceeding luzon on some levels, but especially all the support forces that what ends up happening and kind of the idea of the operation is that you would have had no one near enough support troops in order to sustain yourself, assure the terrain would have been rough. The population not very helpful, probably, you know, fighting on the japanese side in that instance versus the philippines, where the population is with you and you have that and you have the sense, too, in the philippines of maybe liberating some of your p. O. W. S. Thats one of things i cover in the book is the various liberation of like the cabanatuan p. O. W. And all that. So either way you go, i think youre going to end up in a slog, a tough ground oriented slog. So i think its still a vexing question today. And i would never stand up here and say, well, its 100 they should have done the philippines or they should have done formosa. I think it really is. You know, we can all have different opinions and were not necessarily wrong, but but i do think the interesting thing is that theres so many really important to learn about what invading that island would mean, what it would have meant in 1944 and 45 would have a really tough go. And i think probably more so nowadays on a lot of levels in my opinion, you know. Yes, i care, but i what were letters missouri history. You maintain that research right and look theyre affiliated with the soldiers for more good point. Yeah yeah absolutely. And to the one person weve talked about a a youth in japan, my father was part of the final push for support after that as you just pointed out, the occupation in my close years you mentioned that are limited symmetries of changing of american to deal at that time what happened to me after the fall of. Yeah yeah so so they they basically go away, i mean, the the the remains are recovered, sent elsewhere because all this is happening as the the return of the world war to dead program is unfolding. So china becomes a very dicey place to try and maintain youre dead. And as i said, know, these crews go to places, some of which really dangerous, you the world that are not stable and that are very restive politically, same thing in burma. The point, you know. So yeah, china, the cemeteries are basically empty out and the dead repatriated elsewhere and as far as the the invasion of japan i mean that was that was known as operation downfall and it would have been the largest invasion and basically Battle Campaign of all time. It didnt happen know thank you for writing. This whole thing you got a really very comprehensive description and because again its a severe pleasure of two questions. The first is consider of the combat conditions in in the pacific. How accurate was the Record Keeping identify the american remains in pacific . And secondly, how would you evaluate the writings of harry potter and describe the Actual Experience of enlisted soldiers . Oh, yeah, no. The first question, i think, given the adversity of circumstances, this vast global war, all the problems youre dealing, all the the issues youve got, i think the Record Keeping of the dead is remarkably accurate. Not that they dont make mistakes, but id just tell you, just having seen a of idps, individual disease personnel files and all these other kind of records im just still amazed that there were that many eyeballs on this and that that it really works as well as it does with all words that, you know, you can have that in relation to the missing accounting for them and whos and what you do with that. So i think very in terms of the the second was the question, again, i owe you a pile. Oh, my gosh, yeah. Ernie pyle is just just such a brilliant, evocative writer. He was a leading war correspondent. Really leading war correspondent. World war two, the most famous to this day. And and hes a hes kind a real character in this book in the sense that, you know, he eventually goes from europe to the pacific theater, and hes embedded with the 77th Infantry Division at a place called e shima. Its one of the islands near okinawa that the americans had to take. And, you know, he was killed there, you know, in 1945. So its quite a moving story of how this happened. So i was able to kind of get to not of of exactly where he was, what all went on and and found actually really interesting letter from his wife who who wrote to the commander of the 77 different division, general andrew bruce, who was a remarkable figure in his own right, you know, and of course, was just devastated like the rest of his division at pyles death. Yeah, amazing guy, i think represented one aspect. Thank you for coming back. Oh, pleasure. To follow up on the question, when you get formosa, nimitz, in fact, about the possibility of bypassing the philippines and in fact, weve done a couple weve done of all of the things that ive seen because again, like you said, not focused. And it doesnt give armor made into the making of anything. Yeah. So i mean, this is always the dilemma, the whole pacific war. Do we really to invade this place or not . I often that, you know, if they had tried to invade every japanese controlled island or whatever, wed still be out there, you know. So you had to pick and choose and they do, you know, decent job of that throughout the war on the Island Hopping campaign and whatnot. What is valuable about the philippines, though i do think, is that once youre there you are severing japanese shipping lanes from what today is indonesia those days was the Dutch East Indies between there and japan and thats important because the japanese needed resources they had grabbed in the Dutch East Indies in the early part of the war, especially oil and so the philippines of acts as the sort of bone in their at that stage. So i, i do think beyond macarthurs sort messianic zeal to to redeem to liberate the philippines, there was strategic purpose to it. But i also think that it had warrants, you know, i think a big part of it is the tragedies go on in terms of the destruction of manila. And, of course, from an American Point of view, you know, its certainly a casualty intensive campaign and it sees a major naval battle, the battle, the gulf and and all that. So i, i think it you were by 1945, you were in the middle some very difficult choices that were going to be rough no matter which direction you went. And you could argue the same thing with iwo jima, too, you know, primary marine battle, you know, whether it had to be taken or not. Some historians think not. But i think again, its like the philippines. We could all have different opinions and not necessarily be wrong. Yeah, good question. Appreciate it. Theres. The documentary film you were about to see was drawn to mr. Alexander kerensky, president of the democratic provisional of russia, overthrown by the communists. In 1917. Mr. Kerensky to make a few introductory remarks about our picture, we present year old alexander