Transcripts For CSPAN2 In 20240704

Author jeff quinn. You open your most recent book, waco, with this author jeff guinn you open your most recent book we go f with ts from rick perlstein. A far crosscutting motive that defies storybooks simplicity, that is usually the way history happens. I think that quote is the most cogent ive ever heard. Rick does a tremendous job himself and its true no historic event happens in a vacuum. Thats the fascination in researching the narrative nonfiction history. I want to read that quote inu u. S. Well and this is from 2021 and in the plea burn times radio. A lot of people no longer want to find nonfiction to learn things. They want nonfiction books to reflect what they already belie. They want books to reinforce their opinion. They want books that tell them everything they believe is absolutely right and that the other side is worse than i thought. If you take a look at the bestseller list for nonfiction for the last several years there are three categories generally representative. The first, books by political commentators who are associated with one side or the other, talking about how they nation is in danger from the opposition. America is going to. Heres what we have got to do to save the country starting with you watching my network and buying my books. The second category, is religious in nature. How i came to understand gods plan for my life. What god wants us to learn from reading the in the third category is what i call the magic button, 10 ways you can make your fortune, nine ways to ensuring a happy marriage. There were fewer and fewer titles representative on the bestseller list that are simply in depth fact filled objective looks at certain aspects of American History. But they are still people who want to read them and its important to get that history down and thats what i try to do. Tell us jeff guinn what do bonnie and clyde, Wyatt Earp Jim jones david koresh Charles Manson have in common, people that you have written about. Is there a script to that . Oddly enough there is. My goal has always been to write books that captured the sweep of American History from the final settling of the west to the present day and each of these subjects are iconic. We remember them. People tend to remember them in different ways and a lot of the time they want this rather than fact. Ive always thought the facts are far more interesting. When i take a subject as an example what i wanted to do was write about the late 1960s in america which in terms was a chaotic time makes today look peaceful when we are all living inso unison. To write aut that year someone or someone from that era that will make readers want to open up the book and read it. For better or worse Charlie Manson represents a lot about the late 1960s and the culture and people wanted to talk about the things people were with. I wrote a book about manson but its about the late 1960s. Everyone you named is representative of a certain era in what you were thinking and believing at the time. Same regardless of your topics tell me if im wrong about this. I find in your riding you treat yourea subject and topics with respect. Maybe respect isnt the right word. Thats what struck me. Well thank you for saying that you think the worst thing you can do if you want to write a book about some aspectf of history is to go into it thinking you already know everything you need to know aboutnd it and you party formed opinions about what you were going to write about. People who take that approach are only telling readers what happened, d some dates and some names. I think its important to try to learn how things happen and why they happened and what things earlier might have precipitated the events that bring about bonnie and clydes short twoyear is state of crime. If you do that you may not agree with the people who are the subjects of the book but you cannot please demonstrate and understand what made them become what they were and if you can do that then i think readers get a better sense of them and a better sense of the time they lived in. If you can do that i think the book has succeeded. When it comes to bonnie and clyde i almost felt sorry for bonnie because most of the two year she was in pain from being shot and riding around in a ford through undeveloped america. And if thats what i mean about mythology. There was a wonderful movie in 1967, 1968 about bonnie and clyde. It was fascinating. He went to the movies and you watch it and you were gripped by it and a percentage of that was historicallyly accurate. It was a fine movie but it was entertainment. I wanted to know what they were really like. Bonnie parker is a poor girl coming from a life. Her dream is to be famous and to be worldfamous actress. People didnt come looking for pulitzer actresses where bonnie lived. She was tiny, she was brighter at her school years and girls in those days it didnt matter how smart they were free she wanted fame. For a poor kid when she got together with clyde vero and the newspaper stated something to write about besides the depression and farmm foreclosurs heres the romeo and juliette of crime pulling off their daring robberies in highspeed escapes. And they were bumbling criminals. They didnt rob banks much because they were sophisticated enough to do it. If you look at them from the aspects of poor kids who when they have no other option in life when they are ambitious, half to turn to something illegal,o that doesnt forgive the crimes they have committed. People die and its but it least it lets us understand why to them it was the obvious and the only way out of the povertystricken lives that they would be living otherwise. In the same light how did the movie and the mythology developed around the o. K. Corral . Was it that big of a deal . It was a big deal in a different way than it is remembered. First lets state the obvious. It was not a shootout. It was a police stop to take a couple of weapons and it did not happen if the o. K. Corral. But when western history became a thing in america around the turn of the 20th century in theh 1900s Bat Masterson who we remember seeing on tv but the hat and a canaanr was a gambler and a buffalo hunter turned journalist, made his living riding these wonderful tales of authentic western heroes that still walk among us. What he picked was wyatt earp who had a checkered past at best and that fabulous shootout at the o. K. Corral. Thats what we remember. The guns drawn around the horses and Everything Else but at the o. K. Corral really meant was this was a time when the survivors, the brotherson doc holliday were brought to trial for people dying at their hands using guns. Well they were acquitted the case got great coverage and it really send a message out to the frontier before you could always use the excuse that if you were going to kill someone well i thought he was going to kill me so i went first. This meant law the restrictions of law had come to the frontier and were there stay. Thats what was important about the subsequent trial. The gunfight itself at the o. K. Corral was popular mythology that helps Bat Masterson sell his stories to a lot of newspapers and organizations that people still like watching to this day but it wasnt really whatg happened. How was it that wyatt earp became the known group over virgil who is actuallyit the sheriff in tombstone . Wyatt irpin his Law Enforcement was never as we like to say in texas the head honcho. He was always one of the deputies who had to do all the work thatth the sheriff didnt want to. When wyatt was working for the time of wichita Law Enforcement to his job was scraping dead animals up off the street and the sidewalk. Wyatt was friends with the notorious doc holliday and he was notorious even in his own time and he was as tall striking handsome man who was greatly ambitious. He wanted to be rich if he wanted to be famous. He wanted to be wellknown and in his later years after his name had become familiar to readers across the country through the newspaper articles, he worked to try to get his memoir out to take advantage of that. And so the marketing of wyatt earp is greatly responsible for the shows that we remember today. Again the truth is so much more interesting about a multidimensional man who like all of us had his good points and bad points but was ambitious to make something of themselves. His only regret i think at the end of his life was he was about to really get famous but he didnt make any money at it. Sitting here in tucson we are 45 minutes or an hour from tombstone, arizona and the founding of tombstones how did it become a town . Tombstone was one of those towns across the frontiers of america in that where there were great Mineral Depositsre discovered ad in tombstones case silver. The had been moved out where it least partially moved out and so the minors came in, the prospectors and when they found the place and they settled in and began producing large quantities of valuable minerals silver and tombstone mostly thats where all the businessmen came roaring in. You needed needed restaurants are the many needed bars where they could drink. You needed ladies of the evening so they could have a little companionship. The towns would spring up and mostly die out within a few years with the Mineral Deposits were all used up a tombstone lasted a little longer than that. Still there and for a lot of people its their chance to go to where the old west still exists. This is exactly what it looked like and the simulated shootout at the o. K. Corral is exactly how it happened. People love going to tombstone. What is it like today as a tourist attraction . I say thison with respect for the people of the town who have managed to survive and even thrive by making use of the things that happened there. For wild west history buffs is the equivalent of disneyland. You can go there and you can meet larger than lifehe characts you can have a couple of thrill rides so to speak and you can feel like you are back there just like it was, except theres nobody who is going to shoot you in the back. There are no minors this stumbling around in their no dead animals in the street. The thing about the last gunfight that struck me every western town that you researched had gun laws. There were no handguns allowed in city limits. Finau heres the wonderful thing aboutgu riding history and reading history. One of the things i firmly believe is that history is cyclical until we make a final effort through during the time of the herbs in tombstone these were the great debates of the day. Government, how much of it did we need and how much of our lives should governments stay out of . Immigration, we cant have these people crossing american borders and taking jobs away from real americans and gun control. This is my gun. If i want to wear it in town who are you to say i can and yet the very people today who idolize the old west who say we could stroll around downtown with our six shooters strapped to both buyers with my trusty winchester shotgun across my shoulder, they had gun laws. You werent allowed to bring your gun into town. You had to check it because they knew the combination of liquor, macho tendencies, people who wanted to prove how tough they were, if you had guns bad things are going to happen so they wouldnt allow the guns. The nra would not last an hour in old tombstone when virgil was in charge. I stayed the nra does not mention that in any popular literature and yet its effect. These issues that were splitting america apart in the 1880s, we have still got them and the reason we do is we dont look back on history and see where all this began and that gives us a thread to decide okay and we now have to stop and get some common sense gun laws, laws regarding immigration and we have to have some national assessment, some agreement how much government is necessary ine our lives. We really dont have this. We have people lashing out and screaming at each other. 100 years from now our grandchildren may very well be saying can you believe and grandpas time in the 2020s they were talking about the same things we are now, immigration gun laws Government Intervention . If we are going to stop to go back to genesis and say okay this is what we have to do or else we will repeat this again. In her next book manson, the life and times of Charles Manson, what is your goal without book is so much written about him and this didnt come out until 2013 . Charlie manson in his lifetime was always the wrong man in the right place at the right time. If he had committed the crimes he was originally. Jailed for ad i think he was the most incompetent in the history of american prostitution. As a smalltime carthy. If charlie had been jailed in nebraska lets say and he said we had reappeared in downtown omaha, claiming to be a profit and handing out drugs to addle kids who are looking for someone to tell them what to do, locals would have stuck them on a pitchfork and put them out in the field as a scarecrow but just in the time in american inlife where california was whee everybody down in america was looking for inspiration. I was in college in austin, texas and all i could think of was why cant i be in San Francisco or los angeles where the culture is great, the music is wonderful and the philosophy is there . Manson gets out a prison and ends up in berkeley, california a hotbed of protests and then he goes across the day to San Francisco and these are places where young kids flocked if they were looking for gurus like the beatles had. I found people to new manson at this time in they described how manson would go to golden gate park, where every day there would be dozens of selfappointed gurus who would. She to the kids gathered around them for. All the kids hoping they would hear some great wisdom. Charlie would call two or three things that seem to be very effective anthony go to the free clinic at haightashbury where sick kids were jammed into lobbies and he would. She to them there getting his pattern down and then hed go back to golden gate and proclaim himself as a profit. It worked with some ragtag kids and they decided charlie was some great profit and maybe even some religious figure. He made sure they had all the drugsou they wanted and he pursd his dream of musical superstardom which didnt happen. Have you ever heard any manson tape said he made at the time . I had a son who wanted to be a physician a musician and he and some of the neighbors formed a garage band before the neighbors asked us to remove it. Only in that place and at that time could he have gained the followers he did and been able to talk them into committing a couple of crimes that just at that moment caught the attention of the country. There is a newspaper war in l. A. In the papers on who could have the most lurid story about the tate la bianca murders today. That brings in the national media. Hence the Charlie Manson mythology springs up, this man with great powers. He wasnt. He was as little bug but we remember him differently and we remember himl differently becae of the times he lifted lived it and thats why wrote the book. Theres an image stuck in my head from 1969, 1970 of Charlie Manson and susan atkins, leslie krenwinkel and patricia van houten three women who were part of his gang and its stuck there in time. Of course it has. Its very dramatic. I a lot of time with leslie van uten amp Patricia Krenwinkel researching the book. They are in corona california womens prison for life. They will never get out because no california governor wants to be the one to let any of the manson family out among the world but they remember the whole trial. The prosecutor writes that fabulous true crime book helterskelter which he sold over 9 million copies. For charlie it was what he dreamed of. Hes the center of international attention. Every day before the trial opened in the media came in charlie, his lawyers and the three women who were on trial with him convened for strategy sessions andie would say, im going to do this outrageous thing today and when i do what i want you three women to jump up and i say this. He orchestrated every step of it. If he had gone into selling vacuum cleaners instead of crying he might have been a multimillionaire. But he had an image and he told them, he told these women. He was going to play charlie, the nutcase until it became so obvious that he was too to be incarcerated for the crimes that let him out. But they didnt see the charlie they saw the calculating charlie. And having van houten and krenwinkel to agree to that gives us different insight and again why write books about history . That dont bring something new that gives us a greater understanding . I didnt know much about Charlie Manson before i started and when i finish the book i sure didnt like or admire him if you had to shake your head at some of the talent this man h had trade he knew how to sell himself and he sold himself in blood. Jeff guinn what was it like sitting across the table from Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel knowing what they had done . You are not allowed in that prison if you are visiting them to bring and a pat and a pen or a recording device. I would spend the day interviewing one or the other. They are this point anymore or considered the same table and talk at the same time. And they arevi old ladies at the same time. And away they are frozen in time. Leslie van houten the popular girl in high school you got to remember she is 21 elvis happens and she still has the little girl gestures. When shes talking to you she plays with her hair and she giggles and reaches out to pats your hand just like the pretty flirtatious girl in high school would do. But they would talk and i to race back to w my hotel and gety laptop out and try to write it down. Patricia krenwinkel at one point, an a woman now who spends her days in prison training rescue dogs to the guide dogs for the blind. She will not remind you as you see her up anybody dangerous. She is telling me about stabbing Abigail Folger on the lawn of the house on the night of the first murders. She is remembering how it doesnt hurt your hand when he you stab unless you hit bone and then your hand really hurts. And i went back to the motel and i was trying to transcribe his best they could. It was about 3 00 in the morning when i finished and i tried to go to sleep and i couldnt. For months afterwards my wife would wake me up in the middle ofe the night because i was screaming. I was havinght a nightmare. Its not easy sometimes hearing what people say that you have two listen to what they are saying. If they are honest enough to really come out and tell you these things then you had better not go i dont want to hear it. You have tshirt and you have derided in such a way that the reader is sitting rightht there with you, hearing someone telling you these things. You want the reader emotionally invested because thats what matters when its not a high school textbook. What was a process like that getting into the prison in convincing these two women to speak with you . It was difficult. In some form they will occasionally talk to outsiders because they think if they talk aboutt what they did and that they were guilty this will have a way with the parole board. It took a little while. I think i went back five different weekends and the weekend there. Once people feel like they are having a conversation, that somebody is listening, then they tell their stories a little differently. The trick is not to say to someone, tell me about this god crime you committed. Does it keep you awake nights . The people dont want confrontational questions. If you can say can you help me understand how this happened and what brought you to this point, Everyone Wants to explain and there again is the challenge of the historian to make people comfortable enough to try to help you understande their viewpoint and that doesnt mean readers. Read the manson book and oh my. Patricia krenwinkel i hope they are paroled. It doesnt forgive the crimes but we need to look beyond what happened to why and how. Thats when the story really matters. Was your next book about jim jones inin jonestown a natural follower to the manson book . Scenic ive never been categorize as a rider of a certain type of history. I never want to be known as a pulp writer because i dont think theres a generic type of cult and for manson and the manson family and david the Branch Davidians there is similarity thing great differences for having written about the late 1960s, i wanted to learn more because again im 18, 19, 20 growing up. How do we segue from the chaos of the late 60s into lets go with Ronnie Reagan and conservatism sweeping the country in the 70s. What has the happen . So if i was going to write about the 70s there were only two real things that would resonate with readers. One wasfi watergate and i felt theres nothing new i can bring to watergate. Whatever there is about that is they are but the other was peoples temple and what happened in jonestown guyana supposedly the prime example in our her history of what some charlatan who gets a bunch of sheepish followers to do his bidding up to and including killing themselves and dont drink the koolaid is part of our lexicon. I thought well could there be something in that and i started poking around and i learned two things. First of all it wasnt koolaid. It was a knockoff called flavor aid and does many as a third of the people a who died in jonestn didnt voluntarily drink it. They were forcibly injected. The second thing was that jim jones had been hit by a car and killed in the late 50s or early 60s he would be considered one of the leaders of the Early Civil Rights Movement in america. I found people who said to me i wouldnt be alive without jim jones. How could he change into what he became . How could he have attracted such attention at this time in america and why would he, driven overseas by the press, decide on the final fatal and historic way of demonstrating his disdain . I didnt think of myself as riding my followup book. I was riding a followup book out someone who unexpectedly achieved great infamy. Unlike manson had actually accomplished a great deal of good. Om how a does that fit together . Jeff guinn the survivors and the people who left the peoples temple do they still hold an informal view of the members . Im at the surviving members of the peoples temple are in a way like your extended family. They have squabbles. Up until a few years ago every year they would all come together around labor day, not just to comfort each other but to know that they were with other people who would understand. They were treated with such great disdain when they survived jonestown. Those are the koolaid. Whats the matter . Were you thursday that . What kind of are you that you could follow someone like jim jones . The people who joined and followed jim jon didnt materially benefit from ything. He was using j his church and wn i say church i use quotation marks because it was really meant as an institution to bring aboutt social change. Racial equality, economic equality, gender equality. They came to give rather than to get and bit by bit they got pulled into something far worse. They dont think people understand what happened. I will say this, i have written 25 books now. When i did the road to jonestown, when i was done i had about a dozen new lifelong friends that i see to this day. Former members of the peoples temple some of the most intelligent culturally concerned people you could meet anywhere. They are wonderful. And getting to write about them in defense of happened was a great privilege for me. I learned so much riding the book. Good afternoon and welcome to book tvs monthly in depth program. We are in tucson festival of books. And our guest guest is a story in an Investigative Reporter jeff guinn. We talked about several of his books and will go through a couple of more just a minute but we want to make sure you have a chance to get involved in this program. Well be taking your phonecalls this afternoon along with your Text Messages and social media comment. 202 is the area code 7488200 for those in eastern and central timezone 74882001 and the pacific timezone didnt want to send text measures include your first name in your city if you would consent to this number 202 7488903. We are also scrolling pure social media sites. Just remember booktv is their handle. Jeff guinn we will get to a couple of the other books but that i want to go in to jonestown and her most recent book waco, february 1993. What happen . Howell, and the Branch Davidians lived in a large sprawling house they called mount carmel, a hill outside waco texas. Th they pretty much keep to themselves. They literally believe in every book in the bible. They believe david karesh is the lamb of the book of revelation. He and his followers about to bring about the end of times from the book of revelations. By battling the forces of babylon. They have come to the attention of atf, alcohol tobacco firearms for being an Unlawful Possession of semi automatic weapons that have been converted to automatic weapons. There is nothing illegal about doing that a and 1993 if you register each weapon and you pay a tax for doing so for the Branch Davidian had not donevi that. Disgruntled former Branch Davidians had made claims to atf those who were left following david karesh were quite likely to take semblance their automatic weapons once they did not sell at gun shows and dissent until waco or some t otr place and slaughter innocent people as a means of bringing in the government, bringing about the end times of the bible. So atf thought it was not only acting to confiscate the legal automatic weapons, but in fact the Public Safety was involved. They thought it was going to be the easiest operation possible. These obviouslye were dumb peope if theyly believe this kind of garbage from somebody who clearly to them was a fraud. They planned, to make this a bloodless hugely successful raid their budget hearings were coming up and march they wanted to fill the hole things his proof to senators and congressmen they were not bloodthirsty people trying to wipe out innocent gun owners. The Branch Davidians heard they were coming, they were waiting there is a horrible three hour fire fight six of the Branch Davidians died for agents died, 16 more were wounded almost one third of the agents making the. A longlo siege ensued with the i surrounding mount caramel. Negotiators thought there making progress in getting him to agree to come out. April 19 they decided they would insert tear gas supposedly gradually to smoke the Branch Davidians out over a couple of days. Instead they filled the core corridors with mount caramel with great clouds of gas. A fire broke out. All the Branch Davidians in their died horribly except for nine who eap, alllt that becameor genesis and all te controversy after words that clearly have led to a number of violent incidents ever since there is not just the mount caramel story to tell but the consequences. Host the Branch Davidians is it fair to say they started out as a pretty legitimate off suit of the seventhday adventist . The Branch Davidians first called the shepherds rod out in los angeles, or started in the 1920s by an adventist named Victor Victor who believed as all adventist did that you had to live by the rules of the bible. Sometime in the reasonably near future the end of days would, when christ would judge everyone. The only people would survive that judgment and go on and live in the new great kingdom of god would be the ones who had strictly adhered to the scriptures. They believe the seventhday adventist had gotten too worldly. When they are in leadership did not agree he and his followers moved to waco, texas because land was cheap there and they wanted room for the souls that were going to be saved on the last days adventist churches they believed only people that had gone through thatth church would ever be ablech to qualifyf they straightened out. A couple different profits followed victor after his death. One was a middle age woman name lois, she took as her disciple a young stammering bumbling young guy from houston named vernon under her tutelage he revealed himself as being informed by heaven. He was king cyrus, the Old Testament he had to take name karesh because its pronounced that in hebrew. He was the lamb of the book of revelation. He was going to lead his followers into the final epic fight with babylon. The end of days is not only coming soon. It is coming now and we are the ones to do it. They were Biblical Literacy and whatever we talk about today, this is what we must remember. They firmlyey believed in the survivors today still believe this that the god they believed in had told them through his prophet what they must do. And so they would do it even if secular law said no because gods law is the only true law. Whatever else we may think with all the things that happened. They sincerely devoutly believed they were doing the work of god. I really had to work to learn that and to accept it before i could start writing about their perspective on things. And if you read the book again and does notbo mean they did wht was right. But at least youll know why they did things and how its a really critical elements of history. Suet Charles Manson, jim jones, vernon away also known as david karesh, not very good childhoods. No but it is also true that children with much worse childhoods dont grow up to proclaim themselves prophets and lead people to their death. Manson did not on my book to come out when he found that i traced his sister and cousin and would be able to write about his somewhat pampered childhood. Jim jones had an odd childhood but he was always loved. Vernon wayne howell was born to a 14yearold girl and was raised with a lot of uncles and stepdad. But he never wanted for food or attention. We can understand and people have problems how it might affect them. That does not mean we have to also believe it was inevitable they became what they became. Host how many children of david survived and why so many . Davids children, most of them died in the final fire. That was deliberate on his part. All told he fathered 23 children by just about a dozen women. He said the bible quoted the lamb shall spread his seed. So the lamb of revelation cannot be jesus because he did not have children. So vernon the lamb had to have children. Obviously could not have this with just one wife. These children of his were really old souls being born again and when the end times came they would be the magistrates of the book of revelation would help him rule over the new kingdom of god. Three of his children were out of mount caramel by the time the atf operation took place. There are two mothers have become disadvantaged and left taking the children. Itself he sente out other children that but never his children. He sent out the children of followers. But he fully expected his followers, they are going to have to die here. The fbi the atf previously are doing what the bible predicted. So their children the little children of the followers could be sent out two or three at a time because they do not have any vital role coming. But davids children had to place day and his children burned to death on april 19 , 93. On this by the white point thatt where the big mistakes the fbi made. They never bothered to learn what the branch divinity and really believed. They called it bible and they would not even talk to them about it because they said we are just buying into the delusion if we do that. They did not know the Child Welfare workers and waco tried to tell them that hes not sending his own children out. The fbi is taking this as a wonderful side hes letting the kids out he will send more he will send more he is not sending his children out he has got some plan for a grand finale. But the fbi did not listen they say kids are coming out maybe its working. Think of how horrible that is. You are in there, you are surrounded by tanks. You expect any minute youre going to be blown to smithereens and you are pleased. This means davids prophecies were correct. We are going to be translated up to heaven and come back in the army of jesus. If the fbi knew that do you think maybe they would not have finally decided after seven weeks were going to go in there and knock them down there not going to be able to stop us. Everybody misunderstood everybody else chaos inevitably followed correctly you have good results talking to good recite verse talking to dissidents of the Branch Division . Are not many left. A lot were not young only nine adults escaped. I talked to five and had a phone conversation with another one who is living in england now who is so hated the questions i was asking he decided i was sent by the devil. These people, the survivors to this day believe that david was really the lamb. That everything he said was true. The things that happened to waco really are the beginning of the end times that will happen any minute. That david is going to return just like he promised. They did not regret what they did. They believed strongly that god approves of what they did. They were living for god they are still living for god. I talked to them they were very open very helpful. I felt like we had pretty good relationships then the book came out. In it i print what they say but i also print the fact that he stole all of his prophecies, plagiarize them from earlier from florida almost 100 years ago almost word for word. These are people for 30 years sustainea themselves. By hanging onto this a belief. Its what they built their lives around and here comes this outsider who said i respect you but you followed someone who is not what he said he was. Now its not likely theyre going to say thank you. They havent. Ive got all the facts in the book and i invited them, please check for yourself do not take my word for it. They are not doing that. They do not feel they have to because they know the truth and the truth is what david said no matter what i may think im uncovered. Next we are talking with historian Investigative Reporter jeff guinn on book tv now it is your turn we want to hear your voices as well put up with the phone numbers up hear from glenn whos calling from freeland, michigan. Good afternoon to you. Thanks everyone. My question is about manson and the narrative like for example jesse small it hate crime hopes which was quite obviously ridiculous yet lots of people critically accepted and promoted it moving the current president and Vice President of the United States and thats because it served a bigger narrative about racism and homophobia and blah blah blah. Manson and his abusive childhood, until you came along, jeff, pretty much the entire world accepted his story he was a victim of his family and society at large and all of that. Even john lennon of the beatles bought into it. Why do you think that was it . What if any larger narrative do you think was being served by this sort of blind faith in this fictionalized narrative . Stuart weve got it, i appreciate that that kind of goes were back to restart our conversation about the mythology of american. But youve got to remember that in 1968 and 1969 in america anything seemed possible that would have seemed impossible if years before. You had young people radically changing. Previously in america kids were going to grow up to be like their parents. That all the fun youre fighting young people is not judgment its alright to be disrespectful its necessary for going to make things better. Youve got music become the cultural touchstone instead of books and set a tv. For the first time you got National News that is broadcast on a 24 7 date you can always listen to Walter Cronkite in the evening. A man walks on the moon. The new york mets win eight pendant. Richard nixon comes back from obscurity to become president of the United States. There ares. Riots in the street. Civil rights. There is everything going crazy. Im people want something and see in what they want to see. Charlie manson provided that. Nixon got into hot water its obvious the man is guilty. Why is the news media glorifying him . That gave manson thes chance to say the jury has been prejudiced. The president said this we need a mistrial, he did not get that. Student rebels all thought Bernadette Dorn and some of those had their gesture like lithis. These are the times of the fork but if you wanted to bring manson was like you could believe that. When actively proof this hippyu scum was not only disgusting but dangerous, he could be that. If you wanted the great grizzly true crime mystery with sex, drugs, rock n roll, entertainment you could have that. Silt manson fit so well into that time. Every headline was sensationalistic in some way. The need for something to believe in in all different categories of belief could see and them what they wanted. Thats the fascination for the 1960s and Charlie Manson. Someone like him could mean so many things to so many different people. Stuart cornelius in alexandria you are on with author jeff glenn. Alert jeff and peter. God bless both of you all. Now jeff, i want to bring up happen to be an africanamerican. And you know the story of. [inaudible] im sorry broke up there. Stuart cornelius could you keep your mouth closed your phone . Okay can hear me now . Yes go ahead. Okay. Do you know the story of the lone ranger . [laughter] yes, i do. I grew up wanting to beat tonto when i was a little boy. It. [laughter] quickset is great. Theres a guy named bass read he was africanamerican marshall and the oklahoma territories and stuff. And that is what the real lone ranger was based upon. I saw smithsoniand museum show they had clayton more is granddaughter or daughter on theirs he was an indian companin he worked for the hanging judge and stuff in the oklahoma territory. He was an escaped slave and everything after the civil war and stuff. And he headed toward oklahoma. They say he was greater than bassett masterson and stuff. Host lets get a comment from jeff, thanks cornelius. Guest cornelius makes an excellent point that is another reason why studying history, researching it, and writing about it is important. And particularly minority americans are so mysteries that rick misrepresented. If you are a white historian you cannot properly understand and write about minority figures in history. I hope that changes just as i hope well have more minority writers writing about white subjects. Well all understand each other better. Hes an amazing character i would like to say to everybody out there who is interested in a wild west history, look at this man up. You will be fascinated by his life and times. Theres a connection to the lone ranger . Very much so. Stuart lester vonda karl in chicago lets move out your question or comment. Caller i will comment and a question i accidentally met the jonestowns j boys sometime aftr sometime after the incident returning home to indiana. Why do humans have such a fascination with colts. Guest thats a fair question. I think the best way to answer it is the word colts is misused. We tend now we are in the habit that really started with manson through jim jones, through the Branch Davidian. Anytime theres a group that sort of separate themselves and may have some religious beliefs that is not mainstream, it is easy to say they are colts, they probably are not going to be very bright and following some ffraud. That is not the case at all but because the mythology is so strong a lot of the media picks it. N and puts it out there and it intensifies thens feeling. The manson family had nothing in common with peoples template te nothing in common with the Branch Davidian. Colt is a widely misused and i think that is the reason people make assumptions about what a cult must be. Host jim jones son survived today, correct . A couple of them yes. What did they talk to you . My best friends in this world. He calls himself the person black child adopted by a white family in indiana. Jim jones and his wife wanted to develop a Rainbow Family let us pretend quality of the races whats adopt children of different races we can show everyone can live together in harmony. Jim and steven who is only blood charles of jim and marshall and jones are still alive. Ive met both of them im much closer to jimmy than steven who is very reluctant to speak to outsiders. Were trauma good intelligent people a who have become Good American citizens we all aspire to be right involved in their communities, have a loving families, they had rough times they got through it. Again with colts we always think anybody was involvedth what must they be . They must be morons. Absolutely not the case in any of these groups you will usually have highly intelligent people who are looking for likeminded others they can feel comfortable with. Jimmy and steven have very well adapted to the world as it is but they were there when their father was faking miracle cures. They saw him during his drug usage per they understand what a flawed person he was but they also saw the peoples temple itself the causes were very just they were working towards her. They say and as is true is jim jones or deteriorate into drug addiction paranoia, people stayed in peoples temple not because of that is god or great man because that that the goals of the temple is what counted. Well do this in spite of him and set up under his leadership. I would say to anybody who met them, you would like them. You will learn a lot from them. I have learned a great deal from cult members grown because of it. Host is it a fluke that jim junior and senior alive today . Sweet to jim and steven are part of the jonestown Basketball Team that a been allowed to leave a jonestown which is in the middle of the impenetrable jungle to get in there and take a look at i had to charter a plane land in the middle of the jungle and mud Landing Strip and use machetes to cut a couple miles into the jungle to find where this had happened. The government tolerated jonestown. But were not necessarily enthralled with jim jones himself. The idea jonestown would have a Basketball Team not going to georgetown plate exhibition tames, maybe that will help to jimmy, stevens and the other young men from jonestown were in georgetown when the big moment came in congress meant couple other members of the news media were killed. Jim jones gathered everyone together to die is a political gesture. He called the sort of office they had in georgetown and jimmy took the call. His father use code words, kill yourself. No, we are not doing that. Do it. There were some followers who were there and the building who still believed in jim jones. One woman took her knife and killed herself and her children. Jimmy and steven thinking maybe before he has everybody die in jonestown he will do one of us for our sermons want racing to the American Embassy can we get a helicopter question what can we get a small plane . I we can get there we can stop t this. We will stand right next to him and say no you cannot do this. The embassy was closed for the night and no one would talk to them because they thought peoples tempers were weird americans doing weird things. The next morning the surviving Basketball Team members in georgetown were arrested by the police un held on suspicion of murder. It took a long time to get out of theirs by sheer luck the jones boys lived through that. Those are good fortune theyre great contribute citizens. Host government response to jonestown and to waco . I did not save lives. No, it didnt. Though there are different circumstances in both cases. Tjim johnson gone to gion to jonestownfter his reputation in america had literally been destroyed by investigative reporting but indicated negative things about his Ministry People had not known before. But he was still considered by the government to be legitimate. There is going to be a congressional investigation because relatives from some of his followers and peoples temple complained their family members are being held against their will. Re whether they were or not is questionable. But when the government pressure came when the congressman simply chose to show up and say im coming in and im going to inspect, maybe two dozen of the people in jonestown really wanted to leave if jones had said fine, everybody is free to go there still would have been over 900 people there. Jones was a drug addict paranoid and he believed if we let one come and take a couple dozen people another run will be here next week. He will take more people and as soon everybody is going to be gone. Thatne is why he decided we goto kill the congressman and we are all going to die here as a gesture. Host and of course to remind everybody congressman jackie spear had just retired from congress was mccarthys assistant and was shot when she was down there in 1970. Ocked whg in 1970. Jeff the Branch Davidians, one thing i have to remind people of is that there is a three groups involved in what happened in waco. We have the atf the fbi and the Branch Divisions and it ended horribly, and did not have to in the way that it did but for atf the fbi from the best result would been a clean operation phs we come out looking great. And only Branch Division that required people to die and that is a fact. We should not forget it. My could, detroit, please go ahead with your personal comments forecast, jeff guinn. Yes jeff, is really great to hear and listen and i wonder if i lived in arizona i lived in missouri and one thing that struck me about say the situation in tombstone, and the civil war actually brought the west well because of the conflict there you have the Union Soldiers and cowboys who texans i think that even the father your father was an abolitionist. As we just seems like the war never from the border states, to 20 years later until the generation just kind of died out. You know, thats a great observation hundred is one that is critical and thank you for raising it. Up until the civil war, most of the pioneers heading out west, are coming from the northeast because there are so little available land they want to go they want to become landholders and farms and ranches. After the civil war, the majority of the people who are coming most to make their fortunes, our former citizens of the confederacy who want to get away from the unions. And so now suddenly, in the southwest, in arizona particularly, you have people moving in who are trying to get away from any government control. The government should not tell us what to do we came here to avoid that. You people like the herbs for tingly morgan, who identified with the union with law and order saying no, we have to have some laws in your cattle herds and we can get your cattle and where you can carry your guns away you cannot. The taxes were big issue as well. From a 400 former confederate soldier who lost an arm and come to arizona commit to tombstone, just try to make a new life, i was making is fighting of the other side that day, to be this year telling me that some of my cattle looks suspicious and maybe russell underscore into your whole her to make sure. So this civil war tension certainly exasperated and it brought that conflict into a different area of america with the tensions continuing to rise and so we points and sectional rivalries thats really important regional rivalry, very glad you raised the subject sue met gary, he said that he sent a text you jeff guinn, what is your favorite cinematic or tv adaptation of the wiper holiday story. I know that i should Say Something deep about this. But you know i love the most was a star trek episode occurred in spock some of the crew and up back in tombstone worried i think there are a few movies and tv shows that event Great Entertainment they have sacrificed historic fact im still hoping this would be so many will say, this big movie but its really make it realistic. The meantime, may the force be with you for asking the question gary. The next call, comes from ames iowa and this is nancy, nancy please go ahead with the question comments. My commenter is something of how history touches our lives. Just by absolute chance, i was having lunch the lbj rest with Lady Bird Johnson in the wildd farms that are using it or they were doing a story and very quietly, during that lunch, i woman came in and bent down and i was sitting next to her, and is over what happened at waco and is sort of an indelible memory in my mind obviously. Missus johnson composure something that i will never forget. She said thank you very much, and she went on with her obligation about we had an seen her face and body language her distress and on the point of being just another point, this happens to be on march anniversary ando again, how history can touch ones lives my husband and i were married by the reverend james read in washington dc and the most wonderful man. So those my comments enjoying this wonderful historian who we all needed to love them and to cherish them into most of them and in the way the weekend and thank you. And okay nancy, youve dropped a couple of names and some historical events, can you tell us a little bit about yourself. Yes, i can, i was Magazine Editor and offended a magazine the Earth Corporation in 1987, my background beforee that was the master screen American History which i love. I have been a observer and is also an editor and American Heritage for a short period of time and i was a colleague of the wonderful David Mccullough and we worked together in the book on world war ii. So this is some things are you associated today with iowa state university. My husband it is retired and however, he has been associated with the university because he has been involved with the foundation maintains the beautiful carol and they have there but he had a 30 year career at iowa state we are both now retired. And getting her papers. Thank you and jeff guinn any comments for nancy names. I thank you so wonderful of people not only care about history, but it in an part of it and good for her and think you for sharing the story about the bird johnson i think if lady bird hundred in charge of either the Government Agencies at waco, we never wouldve had the tragedies she wouldve been more thoughtful and willing to take her time. I know you live inn fort worh and we were talking about the george w. Bush library and the lbj library in austin ahead of time, and he told a very story about nancy and others and when did you really get interested in history and one of 40 moment, when i was a sophomore, the university of texas boston, and the begin building the lbj Library Campus in Lyndon Johnson returned to his ranch country we come in campus by helicopter with his assistant doris kearns goodwin, and some family or friends when the museum open shooting matures around talking about Different Things and johnson would allow some of Us College Students maybe three or four at a time to join his group in over a dozen times i was able to file and follow Lyndon Johnson run it is museum and herein talking about this event or that event and what he said, to Martin Luther king at this moment and i recall george wallace, when point in his presidency, he said, i know you think that yours referring to testicles like this but i got bowling balls. And hearing these stories and seeing that there is some historic figure, who is real and maybe want to know more. And essentially thats what it dedicated a lot of my career to itself thank you very much Lyndon Johnson and every time that i see bowling ball, i always think of you. Of the story goes viral at some point, there wast a great one read the text message from gf in colorado springs, jeff, i am a sucker for nurses and gunsmoke and i like westerns and i am puzzled by the fact in any of your books which i have read, contain any footnotes or sources or bibliographies, or documentation i can you help me understand that. Will if youre saying that we have not read mike chapter notes. Im very careful to try to list everything i would urge you to go back and look again and thank you. The next call for jeff guinn is from rick, in providence, kentucky and rick go ahead, you are on book tv. Thank you very much for taking my call. My question is about waco in at the end of the operation, when i guess the assaults the final assault because it would be called the command happen it did attorney general reno and president clinton both have to sign off on that or was that just a decision clearly made from the local level. Thank you very much. Thank you for asking that question because an interesting story attaches to it. Jenna reno had only been sworn into office by the Senate Approved in the middle of the waco standoff when the fbi had the fbi brought to her recent plan to end siege. Their idea was they would insert cs gas is sort of a teargas, gradually over todays into mount caramel. And everybody inside cover their eyes would be become irritated they would finally get set up and fed up with income reno approved this plan and only after shely was assured that the amount of gas would not be dangerous particularly to the children still inside of the compound. And she called in and the experts from the army to go over the plan before she finally said yes and i think this is what you can do and she didnt take the plan to president clinton who also approved it. I would is a fact is that she believed them going to take place gradually over todays. Because the gas itself is not dangerous orse combustible, exct in great quantities. But what happened to come up on april 19, starting at 6 00 a. M. , is almost immediately the fire did all of its gas canisters and is supposed to last, todays and instead it lasted maybe three four hours. In great floating clouds of the gas permeated the hallways and the fbi had cut off electricity into the building. It was a cold and rainy sort of a spring in waco and for warmth the branch ed coleman lanterns that were loaded with fuel oil. The cloudss themselves in this amount, were almost faile to explode as a flame was initiated. And do this to, the question of the fbi deliberately set the fire or was that the accident on the coleman intern got knocked over to the branch decided to commit group suicide though they never believed in suicide, they would call the translation t happen. In the fbi should not of done what it did they guess there is no question of it for some reno Health Treatment to be treated she actually set the record the long prison and the media that she was lied to. The fact remains, that it was done and so we can say, the reno and clinton approve the plan and they did but not without plan. So as you can see, sort of a gray area. 2019, book the vagabonds, how much of it was true some citizen and henry ford, and harvey firestone, all went camping together. Is one of my favorite books ive ever written because it was so much fun. And now, before the vagabonds as they call themselves, camping trip started take the cars in procession of trucks hauling food intense another comforts. I mean, we go out of the road of america for weeks long trips. The purpose of it in some ways was creation but it was also very candid marketing and w the first model ts were introduced to the country, all of a sudden, your family can afford a car and people generally sought under thought of course as transportation to and from work and ford one of the nation to understand that the car was freedom. There was no reason not to go out on a family car trip and over about a 12 year time, because the roots of most famous men in america, and the media covered every day of all of the trips. We switch from sort of a horse and buggy or a Railroad Culture to a car culture. When they started their trips, theres about 800,000 cars in america. By the time they finish, there are millions of cars and well over half of them are model ts. But it doe send and ford were great pals in the really loud going out together and roughing it and of course their idea of roughing it meant the servants would cook a nice meal and then wash and iron the clothing whilr they were sleeping in their tents of the good and fresh clothing the next day and if you knew if you ever get a chance go to the museum, in michigan, please do so and eventually has the tenth so the course of the vagabonds used and is a wonderful story shows american changing but theres no blood and guts involved and i really enjoyed the grades about writing about tragedy. It is a wonderful story no more people get to learn about it. So this was in the arctic 20s, that the these mental the cars and no cars and built lightbulbs they went out the camps having was her entourage they took with him. They might have eight or nine cars and their entourage but you have to remember, theres no highways in america braided this is a time in American History when you look closely at a little west virgiamlet and there was a roadwisting through town they might hear the rumble of a car engine and he would run to the roadside and by gosh, that is henry ford and that is Thomas Edison and the getting out of the car and the going to your aunt ednas cafe. This brought important people out to the parts of america that had never happened before and ford and edison were the carnations of their time. Maybe we have them sitting over here, in the cspan booth and everybody would go, listen it wonderful that were getting to see somebody special i tend to think ford and edison were more special but it just depends on your outlook. The vagabonds come i love writing a book, is only book that ive ever attended that im trying to relax i actually just go back and i look through some of it to remember the road trips. We followed that book up with were the border, about fonts via in general blackjackck pershing, and the hunt. How much of that hunt for poncho via his myth. Will actually the greatest myth, the me me drive around that book, is i avidly watched political campaigns and i am a history but also im an american i wanted take the right one and i heard specific candidate of in the runup come into the 2016 elections. They said, im going to build a wall on the border to keep all of the mexicans we dont want from crossing mexico is going to pay for it and is going to be wonderful. I thought to myself, well, dont you think that if a wall would work, somebody might have thought about it before. Maybe i ought to research border history write a book about it. And lo and behold, there were plans to build and impenetrable wall between the United States and mexico in 1904, 19 away, 1912, 1914, 1970, and every time there was great fanfare it were building the ball and then there was still a wall because you ccould not maintain it and many of the wild areas and people who were determined to come they could climb over under it or break through it it never worked in the past. Now how can a candidate say that i guess he never studied the history. And i thought that it helpful to write about the hat the history and maybe the ball builders my like to see you to save themselves some frustration. In all the way gets right for the first time and learn about the pershing and in the pursuit in the raid into arica but he wa finished so never really heard about any of the stuff that is whale of researching history and i will surprise you in the real stories they are so much better than the myth and for god sake, the little border is understood in 1916, who nodded wasted all this time and money talking about were building ad wonderful wall do nt work before and it did not work out itid will never work. Was fun to be a come of the your view, that took the u. S. Army swimming down to texas to combat. Americans have always believed that no matter what else may happen, or the world that our borders are secure. He wanted to inside American Truth Movement across the border into mexico. He had basically been out general goodbye civilian named, constanta and he felt the only thing he could do link the mexican people rise up and that the americans are coming back skills always of the american web trips they took so much of the territory, and we even at one point, invaded the poor city of veracruz, no particular good reason we held it for many months andr carranza was seen s the government endorsed by americans, if you thought that if i took in killed americans, thought to commit to me into mexico and his ac here come the yankees again the trying to take more of our country. So first he killed a bunch of American Engineers in mexico and a lot of the mexican territory the nor the organization is actually owned by americans over the government to do not come he decided you need to go into america crossborder of the markets they can die in the country. So across the border into columbus a little town and cousin people in the governments in American Government had to do something and they sent pershing and his mission and their. In world war i, stop that mission. [laughter] [laughter] world war i sup that initiative because of what happened in mexico, america was prepared for his entry into world war i and that is part of the screen again,to this is just wonderful about history, pershing ghost chasing after via into mexico buddies given quite aew constraints by the American Government and whatever you do, dont get into it all out fight with the mexicans. And so, gradually points himself sorted truck by the mexican army in northeast mexico and he has the troops with him. They cannot really moving in the direction the have a fight with a mexican army and pershing is a brilliant soldier, realizes the emerging army is not prepared to go into battle, not just against the mexicans, but if there brought into the work, so use this time to train troops and drill them they never had this kind of thing before heard and so in america enters world war ii months later, pershing becomes a matter over there but if his troops but he brought to mexico were the only battle ready troops week out, so america could immediately get in on the fighting without without the punitive expedition america wouldve had to hold out injury of the work for both smoker and who knows how history mightve changed. 202 as we continue a conversation with author and historian jeff guinn. 7488200 for those of you niece in central time zone, 7488201, for those of you in the mountain and pacific, and you cannot get through the funds you want to make a man, you can try social media and you cant tax a question or comment 202 7488903, and those over Text Messages only please include your first name and your city if you would. Lets hear fromge gary, sioux falls, south dakota in hi gary. I think you mr. Jeff guinn for having this historical fact and also i am a history major and i am also vietnamera veteran i waset just curious, 68 you were talking about the turmoil of course we know the Bobby Kennedy and myrna luther king jr. , were all killed. And malcolm x in any were you doing about that time i think we are a about the same ages. Yes, im about to turn 70 tonight was in college. In the 1960 president ial campaign, certainly lends itself to the increasing the paranoia and english in america and i was a student in texas and i was following Lyndon Johnson around his library i felt guilty because i developed an admiration for Eugene Mccarthy innocence, force johnson out of office i think my told lbj that i would been allowed to follow along. In any of his library tours. But like you, think that i was very interested in Oliver Wendell holmes said you need to share the action passionately times. I think a lot of posted that in the good people like you of the people and write my books for me thank you very much for being interested. Cemetery, st. Louis, good afternoon to you. Are you still there. Terry come over listening is please going out. Yes, are you still there. We will come back to the calls in just a second, as soon as we get them straightened out dc, and we will come back to those calls. One of the things we always do their offers here apple tv, on indepth as we asked them with their reading and here is what jeff guinn told us that he was currently reading and it is atkinsons world war ii trilogy and army and thought of the day battle, and the guns and lends white and atkinson is s in that seat as well. Ndepth about his wor however you picked up that series. Every time i write a book like waco come of my book that is just come out its been maybe three years feeling scared. Theres so many moving parts there are so many people to include in the story im always afraid when i start writing the books, leaving oliver be able to do it. And then, i realize theres so many righteous historians who have done that i like to look at their work and be comforted by the fact that it can be done and i think atkinson is onef the truly major historians of our time. I do not flatter myself that my work is equal to his. But when i finished waco come i to refresh myself, just by seeing how real pro could do it, who could write about such complex issues and so many moving parts. Finally make it accurate, but make you when it keep turning the pages and he does that and he is such a wonderful voice says wonderful writing rhythm. And so i read his books, just feel good about the possibilities of writing history. And it is the 30th anniversary of the waco incident of april 1993 in your book just came out, this was about the most contemporary history youve ever written is that right. So far. And when you choose to write about waco. There were some Supreme Court decisions, five four votes, during the pandemic. Two mega churches and one in los angeles and one in new york, they sued the government of the states who had put a limit of 75 people in gatherings because of the pandemic it would not be safe and according to the churches this violated the freedom free religious expression what is everybody to be in the same room as spring court found five four in favor. Vanessa people in the justice department, the reaction was to throw up your hands and say, oh no, now any religious group that was to say, this is what we believe and come you have to let us do it because now theres Legal Precedents. I thought to myself, right, like to know more about this. When American History we had some conflict between people who believed their legal belief in the religious beliefs, opsuperseded the law read and waco seemed like a possibility amber the different books about waco, they were out there and i never want to write about that already has doner what i would want to do something thought, they were quite good especially references book about waco but i also felt there were things you never answered. There is no mention at all of the atf what would make the atf get involved there. It was like david to correction of the Branch Davidian sprouted fullgrown in waco and where did they come from. How and why did they get there. I thought this is a story with morning and wereer telling. And if you believe that if youre going to spend two or three years of your life doing nothing but working on this. I dont have a day job at 24 7, when im researching and writing about, that is what i do. And so that is what got me curious. In the Branch Davidians, today if they were put on trial, after all of the events at waco, say our religious belief was attacked by the babylonian agents i would have to fight them to the death. And we are sincere and that i can think site of five four Supreme Court division of the matter the churches missing the religious freedom outweighs Public Safety. There is a Legal Precedents now and you know they could find some lawyer who would argue it. Something to think about. Ight take this further. Peter do you want to say more about that next book . Jeff i want to bring readers up to the present. If after i am gone, people can read my book the last gunfight and follow how america changed all the way to the present day, the legacy of rage in the subtitle examines how the events in waco have been used by impetus by antigovernment protesters to this day for the actions they took. It is maybe time to take a look at some of those militia and how they have turned out to be what they are and themselves to be themselves to be january 26, 2021. Or maybe even somewhat in the immediate lets say alex jones who has made quite the career of encouraging Conspiracy Theory arguments. Maybe these folks deserve a good close look at them, themselves. We will have to see but i was thinking about it. Er we went to michael, Broward County florida please go to your question or comment for jeff guinn. Yes, i wonder if youve thought of the msp birders here in florida it kind of ties and a lot of what youre talking about. Especially with contemporary and religious freedoms. I want to adddd with public safy in florida theres no vaccination requirements. If you want to get out of any vaccination you simply sign a form. It really does affect things. Msb situation in particular a lot of people are not aware and i know you like to dig into things. It gets into issues of how guilty is a community at large versus say the person the community was outraged he was not put to death. Because of his childhood. He mentioned childhood have you heard of something called Adverse Childhood Experiences . We now know from this large study that was done our brains are like plastic. It what happens in her childhood changes them. Also changes an almost identical ways for you are familiar with ptsd. Split ill tell you what, a lot there. We are going to stop you there oupoc if jeff guinn has anything you must answer that. I think you are right about the florida situation being interesting. My big frustration is i am not going to live long enough to write all the books i want to iwrite. And i would again encourage people, if you love history if you are interested in it there is no trick to trying to write the books. You just have to tell a story that will interest people in an engaging way. Maybe i will get into florida. Do not know that i ever well if i dont help someone else goes in there and does the book youre hoping to read. We would text a message at redux bay, wisconsin. Fun and fascinating discussion, thank you. My question is regarding the manson women. Did either of the two women you spoke with, leslie or patricia display any regret or acknowledgment of the horror that they perpetuated . I found both of the women to be very interesting. I spent enough time with them. That i felt we wer getting past sort of the general comments they were making, hoping the parole board would see you then. They both say they take personal responsibility for what they did. That they hate that they did it. Leslie van houtman believes she has seen mass murderers who did far worse things get paroled and out of prison while she stays there. When she makes the argument she never killed anybody like the others. She just desecrated a corpse. She feels for this reason if no other she deserves to be pardoned. The parole board or at least the california governor has not agreed to this point. She said she sorry and i think she is. But i also think she sees herself as a victim that there is injustice that is been placed on her. Patricia has told me in tears that she did awful things. Her excuse is she was scared of manson and she knew he was capable of doing terrible things to any follower who did not told what he told them to do. But then shed added i know that is no excuse. I and i believe she does not see herself as a victim. But as someone whos punished deservedly for someone. Host i pelt us for the fascination but was the first letter you wrote to those two women . Why did they allow you personally to talk . One of the advantages of having written a lot of books when i am contacting so much i want to talk to you, im interested in facts not mythology. I whatever you tell me is what im going to write in the book i may not say its true, i may not agree with that. But your perspective will get and i can send them copies of previous books so they can see the kind of writer that i am. That can make a difference. I can try to send a certified letter particularly with manson there were people involved who are trying to keep the fact they had anything to do with him secret. Heres a letter for me saying i know who you are you are trying to avoid everything all these years but now tell me the truth. I just explain i would like to send in some books and if after reading them they are willing to consider talking to me could we please have a conversation . That is what i always do. And usually it does work. Im pretty good at tracking people down. And a couple take cases people have not wanted to talk they spent their lives trying not too. And i have to respect that. They have no legal obligation to talk with me. In particular some the younger manson women now have children and grandchildren who have no idea they were part of the manson family and they are trying to hide it. What am i going to ruin that for them . I can tell the big story anyway and so i do see what is your book aloud in the prison where they are . I was not allowed to send each of them a copy of the book so they cld read it. I wish they could read i dont think they would like everything in it but i believe they would think a story has finally been told. Pursuant text message my name is doctor mitchell in new brunswick, new jersey. Think of your awesome body of work. My question is when and what compelled you to become a historian . To become a historian . A couple of things. I think i really started down the path when i was 13 and wrote a book called travels with charlie by john steinbeck. I am reading the book and thinking this guy who i only know because teachers may be read the pearl and the red pony t to get in the car and drive all over the country. Talk to interesting people, right about it and he got paid for it. I want a piece of that when i grow up. And then when i was in college following Lyndon Johnson on his tours around the library, listening to the way he told the stories i thought it was so much superior to the biographies written about him in the autobiography he had written. They were all stiff and formal. I kept thinking there were better ways to tell all of this. I became a journalist. I was an investigative journalist. I learned how to dig, how to look for things. And i got very lucky. I was one of the few fortunate enough when i wrote books about history that fascinated me enough copies sold i could give up the day job and just do it. So big shout out to john steinbeck, Lyndon Johnson, and charlie wherever you may be. You were my inspiration. We what we asked the office appeared in depth what their favorite books are . According to jeff quit trying to travels with charleys is what of it with catherine yankee from olympu th whites the once and future king could you speak to those two books as well . Certainly. Katherines book a yankee from olympus is a life study of Oliver Wendell holmes. I did not which read the book when i was in high school. Because it was boring. But the high school i attended was Oliver Wendell Holmes High School in san antonio. We all had to read the book. Was mesmerized. It was from Catherine Drinker Bowen in that book that i realized writing history did not have to be boring. It was not just facts and names. She created such context starting the story with his grandfather, a minister in his father a famous poet. And how everything he learned fit into his time and place. And howde hed the decision to help her render on the Supreme Court that changed America Forever werent just based on law but on personal experience. If you can write a book like that and not make it dry i thought gosh it must be possible to write history that is factual. That tells important stories people do not know. But people can enjoy reading it. I met this inspiration for a that book a lot when i am writing produce the ones for the future king, anyone who has read it no unseat legend by a great historian and storyteller. We think we have at the store the stone and Everything Else. She brought it during the outbreak of world war ii. Very much of pacifists who wrote aa book particulate is mike mate right bring fresh light on something we thought we already knew from a to z. Those were the people who inspired me, who still inspire me. I read those books again and again and it is always like the first time i always learn something new. Stuart only about 50 men slept with our guest. Donald is in ohio, please go ahead donald we are listening. This is don smith. We are in norwalk in a nursing home called the twilight gardens and im about 90 years old. I with my beautiful wife in waco went to spend the entire summer in the enclosure down there i cannot remember who is in charge of it. It was an elderly couple. Seventhday adventist weve been to high schools and colleges we were going around the country with a private ministry settingg all we could about off shoes of the seventhday adventist church. Went down to waco and spent a summer there and disagree with a number of things they did. Including keeping the sea snakes we did not believe in observing all of the Old Testament. The only thingng that carried or from then to the new testament is keeping the seventh a sabbath which we tried to do. Anyway we went down there spent our summer with these guys we found out there is corruption. The secondary man down there wasnt married and having an affair at the 16 Year Old Girl there. Didad all kinds of stuff we not like it. So we got out of there. We were waco for three months. We knew it was not the place for us it was after us that david koresh came and my daughter had gone into a grade school and said she knew who he was. We had all this background we knew the history and they went to the people we were with. That was after we were there. We went donald, thank you sir for sharing your story. Lets hear from jeff guinn. Guest im curious whether his daughter knew david in school or burning how . He didnt become that a doctor left school. Other than that there were some things it seemed to insiders out sick unsavory. But again i will point out thera Branch Davidians believe they were doing with the bible was allowed they chose secular law even though the outsiders my thought is disgusting. Unsavory. But again i will point out the Branch Davidians believe they are doing with the bible was allowed they chose secular law even though the outsiders my thought is disgusting. Donald referred to quick. [inaudible] tell us a little bit about them. They were seventhday adventist that left he believes he been called by god to succeed victor. He said gods message is they needed to follow the jewish ceremonies rather than the christian ceremonies which are pagan. They celebrated passover and theverything lois gained lowestd descendent say by saying an angel had come to her and revealed the holy ghost was mail and female. Meaning god thanks women are every good as men. For that she was acknowledged as leader. She required that statement long before david stole inadvertently or otherwise, lois was doing it. Had quite the effects of what happened in waco. The Branch Davidians were somewhat interactive for the town of waco is that a fair statement . T . A lot of the Branch Davidians had day jobs in town. It one legal wife rachel she was a checker. He like to take his guitar and go to chelsea street pub at night and sing his songs. No record producer in l. A. Ever wanted to acquire. When that media came in and meet it found the event from februarf operation. They wanted stories everyday the more itnt lowered it the better they fanned out to waco to try to find people, do you know any of the Branch Davidians . Have you seen them do Disgusting Things . All they were ever told us theyre kind of strange but they keep to themselves. They are okay. Theyge could not find people frm waco to complain about thedi Branch Davidians. These many years later there are quite a few people who say i wat there the whole time and i always suspected they were terrible. But noticing that at the time for. Chuckle please goe ahead wih your question or comment for author jeff guinn. Spieth you the type of a writing you do have you ever thought about the christian scientists and what they have done to the thinking of americans . Guest i have to say this not a subject of ever thought about getting into, maybe another writer. It would lead to from john and billings, montana goahead we are listening. Hello. Have you ever thought about writing anything about the kZodiac Killer . They have been saying for years and years they wanted to find him when he is doing a life sentence in montana. Speech of the slot of Unanswered Questions about that. Do not feel the Zodiac Killer has a historic impact across our culture. I dont think im going to be doing that one. Suet about two are simple and got a few minutes left, one of the subtitles of the last gunfight book is how it changed the American West in the okay corral what exactly do you mean when you say that . Guest the event itself is not a gunfight as a police stop to take a couple weapons up and it never happened in the okay corral. But, messed upbu arrests a coupe blocks from the okay corral is not as catchy a title. The event is negligible. This was the time laws were very elastic in the frontier. If you got in a shoot out and killed somebody you can usually get off by saying i thought he was going to shoot me so i got him first. When doc holliday it was brought to trial for the killings that took place in tombstone that day, that is the signal that in the west court room law was going to be the operating and decisive factor. I wasnt going to be law of the streets anymore. That is why we really need to look at it and understand it because it is a turning point in American History. The other stuff is entertaining but its also mythology. Suet steve, kensington ohio text message but does jeff quinn consider himself something of a myth buster . Does he see any myths developing and today that will be busted 50 years from now . An awful lot of belief in history is based more on convenience in actual fact finding. I do not want to call myself a myth buster but some people take comfort from this i like to think of myself as a factfinder. If i write a book im going to let you know my chapter notes every bit of information not going to what you have to believe point you to know it and then you make your own decision. Stuart steve and topeka kansas goahead bear listening. Or simply fascinated im going to go out and get what your books okay . Quick question. A question this is in the 19th century. Not too far from where you are i would be surprised if you have not seen it. There are parts of the building that are true. Its very, very real. They. [inaudible] look at the names, they are real. The other thing is theres a first person you might say, my grandfather quit school before he graduated. I think he was 16 years old when he headed west from ohio. They went through kansas and worked in the wheatfield for the summer. The folly went to work on the railroad. At that time there going to the royal gorge was about 1918 he just turned 1916 he had turned 18 years old. For the person he does and then after that he was in the military ends up going to france. Host alright, steve are going to drop it there were running short on time. We start in tombstone we ended in france. What would you like to comment on for steve . Quick steve, like a lot of americans his family has been part of history for so long. It is wonderful that he knows about that. I think it makes it more fun to learn about how these Different Things involved. We went from point a to c, b, d. We had a share of adventures. Host what steve reminded me of calling from kansas, were two things. The texas cattle drives that you write about in the term Texas Rangers which does not have the same connotation along with cowboys that it does today. Speech i will say this. In the history of different organizations the fact that they may sometimes enter horrific periods when they do things that arete unconscionable does not mn they dont have other when thereeverything we want to belie they are. In the Texas Rangers that i have talked about so far there methodically executing. Have respect for the organization but i have to tell the truth. Sometimes thats uncomfortable and it bothers people. As far as cowboys are concerned from a great Dallas Cowboys fan they are from my part of the country. But the original term cowboy was meant to be an insult party called somebody a cowboy in the early frontier you are saying he is so disgusting is outside normal society. It was only after some built up western history cowboy became a nlnice term. All you folks who call yourself cowboys want to look into where the term came from in the first place. Host and jackson, mississippi we have one minute left please go ahead. Doug . Alright that is it. Were going to ended their enforcement we could not hear from doug. You and i were talk about book festivals prior to the show starting. You were mentioning tucson, where we are now. And that mississippi book festival which is held every august in jackson. Guest would you do a lot of different festivals, it is inevitable you will develop favorites. I can think anca author does not enjoy being invited to theoo tucson book festival to wonderful, the crowds are so friendly. The best organized festival i could be her for a week and look forward tol every day. Its upandcoming festival it shows every sign of becoming onr of the great ones. It is well organized and takes place in the State Capitol its a beautiful setting and i hope everyone who gets to read will get a chance and other checks worth your while. Host for the past two hours have been talking with author, Investigative Reporter jeff gwen. Here is his most recent book. It is called waco, david karesh the bank to obedience the legacy of rage but we appreciate your time over the last two hours per. Thank you for all the great questions. I appreciate them. Host think your audience as well. This yearbook tv celebrates 25 years of nonfiction books and authors. Books for the book tv as live with the library of Congress National book festival. Since 2001 book tv in partnership with the library of congress has provided signature indepth uninterrupted coverage of the National Book festival featuring hundreds of nonfiction authors and guests. Watch the saturday book tv once again brings you live all day coverage of the National Book festival. Gas and authors include rhett library of congress, buddhist learned his book i something to tell you. Former nfl player, author of the yards between us. See our complete National Book festival schedule online at booktv. Org. The library of Congress Book festival live on cspan2. Next he spent shop. Org a cspans online store. Our latest collection of cspan products, apparel, books, home to core, and accessories. Theres something for every cspan fan. Every purchase helps support ofa nonprofit operation but shop now or anyti