The title of this session, a view from both sides. And the description is how has the recent evolution of the republican changed american policy . How has it impacted day to day life in the oval office . In this session, we will have our panelists who ill introduce in just a moment. David corn. Catch me robert draper. Tim miller. Work and chris whipple. Welcome to the 2023 tucson festival of books. This panel of you from both sides will end in one hour. Please save your questions, the panelists until after all of them spoken. Well have 15 to 20 minutes at the end for q a. The festival organizers, thank cspan booktv for sponsoring this. And alice and bill ro for sponsoring the upcoming discussion. Please make sure to stop by the book sales area and author signing after the session. Book sales at the festival help support the cost of the festival and the local literacy programs it funds. You can also help keep this event free and open to everyone by becoming a friend of the or a sponsor of the festival. Please stop by the friends booth or by going online to tucson festival love books dot org as we begin. Please silence your telephones and whatever way that works best for you. All rights. Id like to introduce each of our panelists and give a little bit Background Information and a couple of blurbs of promotions for their books, reviews that i think help us to understand the scope of each one of their books. First of all, mr. Robert draper, he is a contributing writer for the New York Times magazine and national geographic. Previously a national for gq and a Senior Editor at texas monthly. He is the author several books, including the New York Times dead certain, the presidency of george w bush. He is also, i believe, the of another famous texan, Watergate Special prosecutor, leon jaworski. Leon jaworski. All right. Yeah, thats fantastic. Yes. Yeah. Well, thats clearly today we will be discussing his latest book, weapons of mass delusion, when Republican Party lost its mind mind, not if win the Washington Post listed this book as one of the ten best books of 2020 to. They state that this book is vital and indispensable all for an event as widely reported as the insurrection at the capitol has been, draper provides a startle ing level of new first person detail. We have watched the hearings. We have read newspaper accounts, but drapers interviews with 150 sources pierce, the staid facts with vivid humanity, fighting falsehood, all that matters if democracy is to survive. And draper comes with the fiercest weapon. Yet the truth, george will that it was a masterpiece of reporting, which is pretty great. And julia yaphe of park says that it is a seamless, terrifying inside the room account and an unsparing one at that about how the republicans went from the party of liz cheney to the party of Marjorie Taylor greene. David corn is a veteran washington and political commentator, winner of the 2012 george polk award, previously the washington editor of the magazine. Now the Washington Bureau chief for mother. He is the coauthor or author, four New York Times best sellers, including the number one bestseller russian roulette. Today, we will be discussing his latest book, american psychosis a historical investigation of the Republican Party went crazy. How how not, if. Its love, bias, battle and love this year. Yeah, well get to you. Tim conway, fueled by both sides. Im a little bit confused. Both sides. Where did they come up with. I dont know. All right. Msnbcs Rachel Maddow said of this book, i think this is a great review. She says corn is a great journalist. I love the way he thinks. I love the way he writes. Im so glad he has done a super modern history of the right. We just need smart, digestible history about this stuff right now. America psychosis Rachel Maddow said is perfect lead times, relevant history where we are right now. Boston, heather cox richardson, a professor of history at boston college. How many of read heather cox . Richardson knew it. I have a newsletter to. This. So you know. American psycho psychosis requires to revisit the dark forces have shaped our government and charges us to safeguard american from those who inflame worst instincts to. Destroy it. All right. Next up, Tim Miller Miller concerned about my blurbs blurbs. Are you worried about your blurbs . A little concerned, yeah. Okay. Dont be dumping. Here we go. Tim miller is an msnbc analyst writer large for the bulwark and host not my party on snapchat. He has written on politics culture for rolling stone, the ringer the daily beast. He worked on john and Jon Huntsmans campaigns, and then tim was spokesman for the National RepublicanNational Committee during mitt romneys 2012 campaign. And was Communications Director for jeb bushs 2016 president ial campaign. He has since left the gop and become one of the leaders of the never trump movement. There you go to the side. Lets back. Who needs the call . Thank you. In 2020, he cofounded Advocacy OrganizationRepublican Voters against trump. All right. The blurbs. Nicolle wallace said shes biased. How many of you watch Nicolle Wallace . Okay, here we go. Tim is, a supremely gifted storyteller, writes with Brutal Honesty and stylish humor about the gops toxic mix of opportunists, joy riders and grifters who enabled Donald Trumps rise and guaranteed his enduring grip on the Republican Party. Tim takes a scalpel to the malignant tumor, smothering american democracy by dissecting his own friends and onetime colleagues. The goal should maybe of wrote a book for the good. David frum said mere couple and mia culpa. Tell all tim millers why we did it. Reveals why and how a generation of republican politicos bend the knee to. A president so many of them privately and despised. Finally finally do i really have to follow these guys guys. Chris whipple is an author, a political analyst and Emmy Award Winning documentary filmmaker. He is a frequent guest on msn, cnn and so forth, and has contributed essays to the New York Times, the Washington Post, l. A. Times and vanity fair. He was also previously the producer of cbs news 60 minutes. Well, we didnt get that. Hmm. His first book, the gatekeepers analysis of the position of white house chief of staff, was a New York Times best seller, and his follow up, the spymasters was based interviews with nearly every cia director and was critically acclaimed. Today we will be discussing his latest book, the fight of his life inside bidens white house. The New York Times book review stated that in the spirit of a book whipple assesses the biden at the Halfway Point and managed what seems to be a first a two year running conversation with the white house chief of staff. The fight of his life is a herculean effort for future writer eager to describe first two years. This will be the book cited first and most often. Publishers weekly calls it a fascinating insiders account of the first two years of the Biden Administration. Whipple provides a balanced assessment of the administrations successes, failures, distinguished by whipples impressive access and incisive character sketches. This is a valuable. First draft of history. Lets give these for another round of apostates. All lets start with our first round of questions. Ill ask each of the four panelists sort of a two parter, and then well have another round or of questions. And then we we give it to you for questions. Okay. Mr. Whipple. Were going to start with you and the Biden Administration and work our way backwards a little bit in time. So i have a two part question for you. First of all, you describe chris, as the bidens teams biden teams secret weapon, the trump staffer who never quit his job and who never stopped to preparing an effective transfer of command control from trump to biden. How did liddells resilience benefit not just joe biden, but also our National Security . So thats sort of the first half. And the second half is about ron clain. So my question is, biden assembled a strong team, one you call arguably most qualified and diverse in history as expert on the position of white house chief of staff. Can you describe the Important Role played ron klain and his successor, jeff zients, in shaping bidens two years . Sure ill try to begin with. I was frankly, when i started to write trumps final days. You know, oceans of ink had been written on this on the subject. And yet there was very little about this obscure staffer named Chris Liddell, a new zealander, had come to this country and rose the ranks to become cfo of microsoft after then general motors. He was a he was a romney republican. He didnt like trump, but he wound up in trump white house. He diluted himself weapons of mass delusion. He he convinced himself that the office change. Trump and so he was he but he was there during the final and under trumps nose and without knowledge proceeded to make sure that the wheels of the transit kept turning. And one of the really astonishing parts of this is his boss, mark. Trumps white house chief of staff. You know, there used to be a really healthy competition for the title of worst chief of Staff American history. Meadows owns it by a country mile. Haldeman cant. Nope. Anyway. Meadows is was not only a yes man to donald trump, he was a yes man to almost and inexplicably a kind of a wink and a nod. He told meadows to. Yeah, go ahead. Just dont tell, boss. Just, you know, stay out of the with a result that Chris Liddell managed with a small group of other people in the trump west wing to make that there was a peaceful transition to power at noon. Write about it in my book. Its an assistant issuing story. I think, ron klain, of course, was before he became white house chief of staff. A co chairman of the transition during this whole period. I this great story about a a zoom call a private zoom call that clayton had with 19 of the 22 living white house chiefs of staff a month before the inauguration and they all gave him advice clain probably didnt need because he was by all accounts the most prepared Incoming White House chief in history, had worked for nine other chiefs. He had this really rare skill set, which is white house experience, knowledge of capitol hill, deep, Political Savvy, a world class and. In addition to all that, a. 36 year relation friendship with the boss. Thats what that enables a chief of staff to do, is tell the boss what he doesnt want to hear and to this long winded answer to your question as far as his successor is concerned, first of all, its no surprise that hes gone. He he wanted to quit after nine months. Thats how unbelievably relentless and thankless and grueling job can be. He stayed for two years. His successor jeff zients. I has many of many of klains attributes. Hes got really big shoes to fill. He lacks klains Political Savvy and lacks that long relationship with. The boss. But in every other respect, hes hes a managerial hes a guy who makes government work. When the Obama Health Care website employ nobody any idea how to fix it and they called zients and he fixed it, then the Coronavirus Response team, hes a very able guy, but hes got very shoes to fill. Thank you. Id like to follow up just a little bit, if you dont mind, and that is to ask you, it seemed like the 2022 midterms, but the Biden White House navigated it with a lot of success. And im wondering if that could be a playbook for how the biden will the gop moving forward. Yeah mean i think there are a couple of playbooks for it for the Biden White House first of all in the in the midterms biden and his team were mocked. They were ridiculed because they werent talking about inflation in the walk up to the to the midterms. They were talking about womens reproductive rights and the threat to democracy. Democracy from marriage. And everybody said thats a losing cause. Well, it was who sat joe biden down and said biden wanted to go every and talk about everything. You know, he wanted to brag, understandably, about a lot of the stuff hed done clay and sat him down as only a white house chief of staff can do and said, mr. President , youre going go to the states where you can make a positive number one. And number two, youre going to talk about reproductive rights and maga. Well, he followed that script and the rest is history. He defied the odds overwhelmingly in the in the midterms. I think the best playbook for im curious about what you guys but it seems to me because you know so much more about the gop than i do. But it seems to me that the best playbook would be in bill clintons playbook from the nineties when, newt gingrich, the then speaker, was setting his hair on fire a daily basis. And and impeaching bill clinton for the monica scandal clinton essentially kept his head down and went about the business of governing and was richly rewarded and ignored the which seems to me like pretty good blueprint very good thank you, mr. Draper. Lets turn now to file a quick complaint about the ron klain review by way, i know youre the expert on this, but ron klains most admirable trait is how great of a twitter he is. Hes great at that. Hes very good. I just think that we know that it would have been a mistake to not mention that. Wait a second. Hes also a really good at little league. So. All right, mr. Draper, your lets back up to the events of january sixth a little bit in your book weapons of mass delusion. You gave a detailed eyewitness. Of the january 6th insurrection. You were there in the building more than two years later. This the first part of my two part question, what memories that day seem most significant to you . And then im wondering if you could pivot to Marjorie Taylor greene, who describe and interact on numerous occasions and them in your book. So instead of being relegated to sort of the, you know, misfit island status in, the gop, her influence seems to keep growing. So what does she know about the electorate that paul gosar from arizona cant seem to grasp . How is she that sort of the next embodiment of the trumpist . Yeah, ill start with the second question first, and i spent a lot time in fact, i still continue to spend time with congresswoman greene. Thats why they pay me the bucks. The New York Times. But its she, you know. She was widely ridiculed when she came to as this q and on adjacent. No nothing and it was you know expected that she would be relegated the star wars bar of you know congressional politics. What people failed to recognize was was that she understood the maga in a way that the republican grandees in washington did not. And very quickly, they came to realize that she onto something by the of her first term. Greene freshman was the number four fundraiser amongst Republican House members among. You know, 210, 212 or so beaten by the two leaders. Kevin and Steve Scalise and. Dan crenshaw of texas. This was because she really excelled at online donations would say these outrageous things and people would respond by sending their money ten 50 or whatever and would and would say, this is a warrior. This is a person fighting for me. And so when we wonder why Kevin Mccarthy is has capitulated to to greene and to into matt gaetz and the like, not because hes developed a great fondness for them, its that he them he recognizes that that as long trump still control is trump and trumpism i should say controls the base, the Republican Party, the people that will turn out then then he himself will be turned out. If he doesnt Pay Attention to them. And its for that reason that weve seen her get after being stripped of her Committee Assignments in 2021 to be given plum assignments to to be sit in on senior policy level. I mean, she has essentially without attaining any leadership, become a republican leader. I was out to do this. Id gotten the contract for it. I think december the 20th or Something Like that or 2020. And at the time, you know. Greene had won, but, you know, seem like she was just going to be a marginal character. I couldnt spending much time writing about her. Liz, in the meantime, was the most dominant female republican on capitol hill, arguably in and i would not have predicted at the time of doing this book that those trajectories would go in opposite directions on. The morning of january the sixth, the very first day i began reporting my book, i went to see the ceremonial function of the counting of the electoral votes. I saw that there was a magic crowd out there and and got stuck in the building for a period of time and and, you know, witnessed the the battle on the west. Harris between Capitol Police officers and the thousands of people who are coming. And eventually i got out through the tunnels and came out to the east and watched people push their way. What sticks in mind is, is that by and large, you could see sort of three groups of people. Its there were the very small but dangerous and conspicuous by their paramilitary gear, proud boys and three percenters and others who were warming their way through the crowd and ultimately now know through Court Documents really were the intended spear point. And they had a plan. The vast of people who were there were people who were kind of garden variety trump rally goers and. They came to washington not sure what they would do, but having been told that, trump wanted them. And so this was to some theyre kind of final turn on the dance floor, as it were, for the maga movement, for others just to protest and see what would happen. There a third group somewhere in between and now we figure them to be in the group of you know a little over 2000 and there were charging documents of about 950 individuals who who went into the capitol. And i would say vast, vast majority of those probably had not planned on doing, but got caught up in a situation. And i distinctly recall hearing this tim sort me talking about this this morning of a 50 something man with what appeared to be his two teenage sons out there amongst the crowd and in a quavering voice, he said to them, you know, boys freedom isnt free. And our founding knew that. Sometimes you to fight for it. And i think today is, that day and they moved into the crowd, thank goodness. Tim, a couple of questions for you. Here we go. In your book, you describe how the game works, the game, how your specialty is strategy, tactics messaging, advertising and, opposition research, not the business of governing and policy. So im wondering if you can explain to us all how the game works and tell us how your approach to it or involvement with it. Got alex, how much time do you. Okay. Yeah ill ill be as quick as i can. First, i guess im just looking play the role of of of critique answer of the other questions because i think my question is the hardest and i just are we always sure the Kevin Mccarthy and Marjorie Taylor greene havent gotten fond of each other. They seemed like they seem kind of fun anyway well just you dont have to. Its going to be a next book. You dont have answer that. Im just saying they seemed pretty fond of each other to me. The game. Yeah. So . So when i started to write this book, why did it, i really wanted to focus the people who knew better. To frums point writer, these two guys have written a and as of others about you. Know kind of the pure maga crowd. I think theres plenty to criticize the pure maga crowd, but theres something at least genuine about the ones who are genuine about it. And i wanted to and i wanted to focus on the people who all of the people who knew better. I like how they got wrapped up into it and. And one of the best ways i had to explain is just by what the mindset was like inside republican politics. From the time that i started and even a little bit before that, i think all the way up through 2016 and one way influence that i read, Michael Lewis wrote this great book that i think at least read book, but its amazing. Its about the 96 campaign called losers and. Lewis writes about all the losing republican candidates in that primary, but that he he has a passage in the article about how you just as an outsider, how the thing struck him was just how cynical of the strategist were on both sides. And hes like back then in the nineties and hes like the clinton and dole, you know, elizabeth dole, you know, the clinton and dole strategists kind of were just interchangeable. Like like they were strategists that that were obsessed with their clever tactics. Theyre theyre theyre the different strategies they had for their candidate win. And they cared really about governing very little about policy minus. You know, a few prior, you know, prolife, strongly held beliefs. And i think that there was a change in this in the left a lot because of i think a lot of because of west wing and obama basically theres a lot of earnest people came in to democratic politics. But this the cynicism really stayed and metastasize among the republican strategist class. And and i just sort of look into the book and think, you about the interviews that i had with these strategists, is that if you look back, the obama era, that there were a lot of people in republican politics who got comfortable in advancing things that they knew werent true because the base really wanted it. And there was always a little bit of this in politics, surely on both sides. But the the just the degree to, you know, there was this anger and vitriol towards obama during the obama years that driven surely partially by race, also by the conservative media ecosystem, you know, made republican of strategists feel like they had to provide this red meat to, that base to make sure that their voters were excited they were donating, that they would turn out. And and so know theres this big disconnect. You know, the disconnect began expand between the people running these campaigns and the actual base voters. And that you know that disconnect created you know, helped perpetuate a lot of the anger among voters themselves. And also got a lot of the strategists, i think really, really comfortable with going along with stuff they knew wasnt really true. And so when i write it about wrote about the game, you know, i wrote in details about kind of some these strategies and what they are. But the point i was trying to make is that a lot of a lot of folks, myself included, you know, treated, you know, politics as just kind of this really as a sport as far as wwe is wrestling and that that that one of the thing and not the only thing but that was one of the things that that kind of took us to a path in 2016 where trump was able to kind of be the koolaid man crashing through the crashing through the wall and offering these people something that felt a little bit more in touch with their with their with their grievances. Were you surprised by the democrats in the recent 2022 midterms, tim . And im just wondering if you could comment on kari lake a little bit, her campaign, i think you were here covering. So in terms of message, carrie, yesterday the governor i visited with her yesterday. Dc sure. I was. I visited with your governor. Shes doing great. She sent some regards. What about their messaging, though . I mean, why didnt wins . Everyone thought she was going to win. Sure, but i i. I was a little bit more bullish than maybe your mean pundit about the democrats were going to do in 2022. And i didnt think it was going to be as good as it was. And i was particularly worried about arizona and particularly about the kerry like hobbs race, in large part because just felt like the campaign that hobbs was running with was not particularly strong, especially compared to like some of the you know, if you look at pennsylvania. Shapiro fetterman ran, i thought, very strong campaigns countering countering maga and what happened here, i think, which was which is bullying, frankly is that like this, to your point, chris, like this message of just focusing on the republican extreme ism, you know, worked in large, you know, not to take away credit for the democrats, but in large part because the republican candidates were so freaking crazy. Right. Like they they played right into it, you know . And i think that they had this hubris and confidence because it was the first midterm, because inflation, you know, because they think that biden has dementia, whatever that they that they could get away with that. Right. And and so you had these candidates were very detached on the republican side from what the mean voter wanted. And when i saw governor like yesterday i asked her about this and i said, said, look, as a former mccain staffer, mccain, republican, you know, dont you think possible that you lost because you told mccain republicans to go to hell and because there was some nefarious theft of the election, like, isnt there a simpler answer to this . Obviously, she she did she disagreed that analysis but that that i do think that was true i think that there were a lot of people that you know if you just look at the numbers in maricopa im friends of this guy tom galvin who is as America County supervisor whos a republican, just ran as a normal republican and he won and outpaced by quite a lot. And and so, you know, i think that that did the democrats here because of the democrats great strategy for countering maga. I dont know i mean maybe but i think that really more of the reason why democrats were won was because the republican candidates were so creepy and made themselves just totally unpalatable to to a Certain Group of voter that would be happy to vote for a a republican that had a bit of a sheen of normalcy on them. And so, yeah, i think that its an open question whether. The democrats have a good strategy for for combat, something that would be maybe a little bit more competent. Thank you very much. I like i like your phrase, a sheen of normalcy. Think thats its a really interesting phrase. You just used there. Lets turn our attention now and go back in history a little bit earlier. I you to think about your favorite Barry Goldwater moment. So, mr. Corn, im wondering if i could have do also a little bit of a two parter and give us a bit about of history. The fact free extremism of John Birch Society and then maybe connect a little bit to the failed 1964 president ial campaign of Barry Goldwater and give us some back historical background to what we might be seeing today. Thanks, alex. Its great to be in arizona after having covered mark finchem from afar for a lot of last year. Nice to be here for that. Let me ask you, how many people in the audience had some sort of director indirect connection with goldwater way or the other . A few hands still go up are good. Okay. You know, i would my quite my answer follows up on what tim said although i set the at a much earlier point than he does. My book american psychosis you know makes the argument think proves the argument that republican republican relationship with extremism goes back seven decades its waxed its waned but that for that time period throughout that time period the gop has both encouraged and exploited extremism. It didnt start. We are with with the tea party, which is kind of the period that youre talking about. It didnt start with newt gingrich, which was another form of extremism in the nineties. And it started back in the fifties with mccarthyism. And then, you know, the relationship, the Republican Party, some of it and and the John Birch Society, which was basically outright paranoia that. The government is riddled with secret enemies, communists, Dwight Eisenhower was a communist agent that the commies have infiltrated basically every school, every business of every part of government trade unions. And youd have the the director of the John Birch Society, a guy named welch, saying the communist Party Controls 80 of the united states. It was basically cunanan without babies and sex trafficking. I mean, thats what it was back in the day. And pretty big government. Its kind of like the key part of growing. Well, well, well, the thing is, as you know from red meat, you have the red meat has to keep getting redder and redder so by the time you get to the day, the John Birch Society seems kind of quaint. So got an ad on sex trafficking and pizzeria basements to keep people getting that dopamine rush. Right. So. So the John Birch Society was a very big thing. The Republican Party in the late fifties and early. And when Barry Goldwater ran for president as the conscious of the new conservative movement, very extreme movement in terms of policy and ideology, there was a debate the party within the gop about what to do about the john society. They were seen, you know, William F Buckley and other mainline republicans saw them as complete wackos, but yet, like we see today, they made much of the driving energy of the Republican Party at the grassroots. And Barry Goldwater wanted to use them to get the nomination against nelson rockefeller. A liberal mainstream republican in the 64 contest. And so he in the book i tell the story about how he conspired with William F Buckley, how not to throw all the John Birchers at that point out of the Republican Party or the polite conservative movement. Buckley eventually it but initially he didnt. And he just to criticize the head of the birchers, the birch society, and allow the birchers, though, to stay on goldwater side. Now, they helped him win the california primary, which gave him the gop nomination. And then he went on to this tremendous defeat against lyndon landslide defeat and all the pundits at the time, People Like Us all said thats it for the Republican Party. Thats it for the far right. You know, goldwater has shown never that, you know, you know, the Republican Party has been decimated as has the conservative fringe extremism. Two years later, who won the election in in california for governor ronald reagan, working with the remnants of the John Birch Society. And so. I point out again and again through reagan, through the seventies, with the new right and the rise of the religious right, with both president bushs working, pat robertson, and the fundamental and jerry falwell, who was preaching all sorts of hatred that, the Republican Party, when its needed, has reached out and has thrown the red meat to the far right. And sometimes, like mitt romney very, you know, nice, decent man, try to keep his distance from it. But when he needed to, he embraced. Donald trump in 2011 who was the number one person and promoting far right extremism. So its always been there. Going back to Barry Goldwater, coming here. The circle was complete. If you look at arizona in the last couple of years now, you did a good job and in november, but as i say, you know, kerry got elected governor, right. It is an ongoing fight. Its not, you know. Its not quite a pendulum that swings back and forth, but its something thats always been there in american politics. The Republican Party has always sought to exploit. Thank you. Id like you to follow up, please, with a question. But then if the other three could pitch in and this is a much bigger question, so i want to quote lincoln, if you dont mind. Lincoln in 1838 about americas destruction, not out from without, but from within. So he said, destruction be our lot. We must ourselves be its author and finisher. So what im id like all of you to address, if you would please, in your own way, will the current gop republican, whatever psychosis what could it lead the end of what de tocqueville called the Great American experiment . How big of a threat i think a lot of us are very concerned about. The upcoming next president ial, where were kind of serious threat. Do we really face are just by pointing out the irony of that lincoln quote that has since been used and disfigured constantly by republicans beginning with mccarthy you know joe mccarthy talking about enemy within. Yeah. And and now ive heard Marjorie Taylor greene and paul gosar and others essentially pervert meaning of that as well. Continue well, i would say picking up from that, robert, that one of the constant themes that i that i that i see in describing my book is that this form of extremism is always about the enemy within. You know, joe mccarthy, didnt worry about the russian troops. He worried about communists within the new right and the religious right in. The seventies said that democrats and liberals were destroying god and destroying america. So that theyre wrong in their policy ideas, wrong you go up to barack obama. Glenn beck on fox news every night was saying barack obama has a secret plan to destroy america from within so he could take over as dictator. And people like john boehner, sarah palin and other Republican Leaders were coming on his show and validating him. Newt gingrich against the democrats saying theyre not normal people. Theyre not normal americans. And then we see that obviously with trump and even yesterday i got i got to know from Kevin Mccarthy, probably few other people did, too because he was asking for money. But kevin, kevin and his dear david note said the democrats want to destroy america, i need your 5. And i would argue and id be curious what you think. Tim, about this that i think theres an asymmetry here. For all of the vitriol in politics you cant point to Democratic Leaders president candidates major figures in the house and senate who have gone out there and said republicans are evil. Theyre aligned satan. Theyre part of cunanan. They to destroy the american experience. They want the enemy within. They say theyre wrong. They say theyre harming america. And sometimes words get, you know, heated. But obama, biden they talk about coming together. So from the right, from the Republican Party, theres always been this enemy with this. Its i think its baked in and sometimes its more prevalent other times. But its this enemy. And that goes to lincolns quote. If you think that we were the within europe, there is an within whether theyre eating babies or not. I have jewish space lasers. Well, if you think that you youre on the path to some form of civil war or National Divorce. The son said recently. And and i have to say that in the last 70 years has become more from one side than the other, who softball. So, yeah, this is presenting the whole Republican Party. I know last time you usually im its its its this is a change of role for me because usually the one im the one telling squishy moderates that they need to be a little bit more alarmed about the Republican Party. And now im here on the penalty and im like maybe quite that alarmed so im trying to find somewhere on the continuum i look i think that there is an asymmetry. So i do i just agree with you on that. And and the place that there isnt well, there is still an asymmetry of this, but place of the asymmetry isnt as stark is among activists, commentators. I think that there are a lot of left wing activist commentators who are also kind, maybe not talking about National Divorce and is hawkish of a way that Marjorie Taylor greene is, but that are like we need to leave the country. Like deep concerns about an unmentionable or fissures within our country. Democratic politicians like the level of responsibility is just so much higher. Republicans, its like in another stratosphere. You cant even compare. Right. You know, lets just look at what just happened with biden going to kiev, you know, bidens in kiev and and trump, you know, leading president ial candidates are out there, like calling him a traitor, like while hes in a war zone. Right. Going on fox and you know, or tweeting on his fake you know, about how about how you know biden is a traitor like its impossible to imagine the inverse of that right like biden going on joy reid in five years when desantis is in a war zone or whatever, you know, like its there just is no comparison. So so obviously one one side, at least at the elite level thats driving this, i will say this, i sometimes when people talk about this and the rhetoric hot and people get apocalyptic, they about civil war in a way of like literal war are like literally we on the precipice of some some republican getting in and that we dont have elections anymore we dont have, you know, peoples you know, basic rights are stripped from them, you know, across the board or about the bill of rights. And and so i just, i think that the real danger i think its just better to focus on the real danger, which is kind of some form of like orban ism and bolsonaro. I bolger bolsonaro is at cpac today getting raucous applause. And and i think that that the real concern you i think that there are some good things that happened in the midterms which we can all agree right up the most egregious election deniers lost across the board every one of them. So there is a big middle that is holding. Now, the problem with that, though, is, you know, one economic downturn, one outs that one event outside, you know, outside event, one one. Some people predict. And a bunch of these folks, you know, get swept in as they did in 2010 or 2016. You you have to guard against that. Right. But so then what happen if that group swept sweeps in and i that what weve seen is that we have a big middle in this country that doesnt want that people that might be temperamentally wall street journal republican types that are not going to support these folks theyre not a big crowd but theyre big enough to matter and then think we have this other group that if they got in you know i think would try and we have seen and red states antideath cratic measures and you know antifree, speech measures and and so i think that that is a is a pretty acute threat and. I think that like the threat of, oh, my god, i need to go to quebec city because were in real National Divorce between the red states and blue states or taking arms against each other. I think thats a pretty low level threat. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Whipple. Yeah. Can i just say the. So i know i said a lot of good things about the Biden White House during midterms and about ron klain, but i dont want anybody to think that im the glass full guy here because because i think that i think david was absolutely right that so normal beat crazy 2020 and in 2022 but crazy is always a part of the gop has been forever or probably will be for the rest of our lifetimes. Joe biden. I think that the thing that shocked joe biden more than anything else in his presidency was the lasting persistent power of maga and trumpism. He thought it would be in the Rearview Mirror by. He he won by 7 million votes. He thought he had a mandate. And he had this old school that these are going to be left in the dust. He now, thats not the case. I think the Biden White House has their theyve set their sights on trump as the nominee. I think they believe will be the nominee and think they believe that democracy is on the ballot in 2024. And so, you know, you do have a party been captured by people who have opted out of the notion that we should have free and fair. Thats crazy and crazy. Still their brand. Mr. Draper, can you in your words. Yeah, ill just will. Ill to what chris just said that i spent the better part of last summer because phenix is so in the summer doing doing a lengthy story on the arizona Republican Party. And one thing that i heard over over proactively volunteered by grassroots people who showed up to various events and rallies and stuff was the line we are not democracy. We are a republic. And when you hear Something Like that over and over, after a while have to think they are telling you something. The something that they are telling you is democracy, in their view, no longer works them. It has been weaponized against and their belief is that somebody the other side gets 50 plus one and they can take away your property. They can reconfigure america in a way that you no longer recognize it. And this truly something that was heard over and over. So it became it was really revelatory for me and a recognition that truly there is an Antidemocracy Movement and its and it not by its own name, but thats precisely whats taking place. Thank you. I think its time for some audience questions. Do you want to raise your hand if you have a question and we have a microphone over here, think stand up. All right. You. Serious . Each of the panelists is your view of ron desantis in comparison to donald. Ill do this quickly. I mean, i desantis is not trump to the extent that he has not mastered populist demagoguery in a way that trump has. Desantis was just a few years ago, a back congressman who in the House Freedom caucus was not recognized by his peers as someone who would likely ascend to the level that he has. To his credit, he has done so. But at least for me, i do not that hes going to be able to stand in the ring with. Donald trump, hes managed to avoid avoid that eventuality. In fact im hoping and this has been a playbook weve seen in prior election cycles that trump self emulate right but but you can only do that for so long and and and there nothing on the books and nothing yet to convince me that hes a whole lot different from scott walker who was also a fabulous resume in search of a really good candidate. You know ill see briefly in a newsletter that i wrote recently did i mention i have a newsletter of i wrote a piece called war on freedom and i know that on twitter and in our slack chat at mother jones, theres been ongoing debate who might be worse. You, from an authoritarian point of view than trump or desantis. And it really is a coke or pepsi type question here, right. Theyre different and they present different types of threats. But i think looking at desantis in the last couple of days, last week or two, i dont know if i havent checked in the last few hours. The number of bills that hes, you know, introduced in florida to restrain academic freedoms, media freedoms and who knows what else, you know, shows that he, you know, wants to be the orban of america now. Thats a threat. Thats a danger. Because if he succeeds in that just in it, it provides an example to governor carey lake and to others across america. I dont know if it helps him in the president ial campaign. I think roberts exactly right. He hasnt shown that he has the ability to compete at that level, which you cant do until you actually try. But i think still he is the face of i dont know, authoritarian competency in america. And that should be taken with a great deal of seriousness. Whether or not he decides to run in 2024, hes running. I was just i was just with the santos last week in florida covering his book tour. Hes running. I a little bit of a different view, i guess. I would say its more like coke and rc cola. I mean, its just like its pretty as far as like the acute threat is concerned. I mean, donald trump tried coup. You know, we had a we had the capitol was stormed by people waving donald trump flags. Its its really hard for me to imagine people, like waving meatball russian flags like the capitol in tallahassee. Okay. Like he just he doesnt have that kind of personality. He doesnt inspire kind of radicalism. Hes radical. And so i think that the concerns about ron desantis are very legitimate. Im a gay parent and like the notion that my kid, you know, the teacher could not, like, assign a assignment in florida about, you know, it says, you know, ronnie has two dads and, you know, janey has two moms. How many dads are there . Like that is an illegal assignment in florida, like thats insane. Okay. I that what hes doing at the new college is ludicrous the stop work act is ludicrous to disney and the disney thing. I went and heard him talk about this hes the talking in audience like this about how i had to attack disney because. Theyre sexualizing children. Its like, what is he even talking . I guess the movies strange. Came out around that time and it had a it had a gay character with a supportive, which i guess is enough to get the governor of a state to target you and your tax status. So all that stuff is alarming. I think that a ron desantis presidency would alarming. I think that the orban comparison is apt. Theyre modeling themselves after orban that said, i a second donald Trump Presidency is a really an existential threat to the country and like the kinds of people would be serving in a donald Trump Presidency a second term or just to just its just too frightening to even imagine. I just im not going to do that to you guys on a saturday afternoon. So i just i the threat level is different and that thats not a thats not compliment to ron desantis but its just i think its just the reality. Mr. Wemple did you want to pitch in on yeah. I mean, would just simply add to that that i find it really hard to imagine donald trump graciously conceding the nomination to two dissenters or anyone else. And i think trump do can end does anybody think trump wont do whatever he has to do to take down ron desantis . I dont see desantis getting through that gantlet. Im just really im more bullish on desantis through the gantlet. I dont i dont im not predicting it im just saying, if you look at the Republican Base right now, theres one archetype of voter matters. They like donald trump, but theyre kind wondering if they maybe should move on in order to help them win that. Thats court now thats theres 30 of the party that that loves donald trump and thinks hes a legitimate president or 20 or whatever it is. Then theres 85 that dont like him anymore. The big middle of the party like, donald trump. But theyre open to hearing about. And you know, to chriss point, if Donald Donald trump cant lose, according to donald. Sure. So if donald trump does lose, he then has to attack the people who say he lost. So will be the rhino republican establishment rigged this against and he will care more in the general election about desantis. Whoever gets the nomination, then whatever happens the democrat. So whoever gets the nomination, then well have a two front war, civil war against donald trump and then real fight against the democrat. So i think ill make it very hard for the santos or anybody else to get into the house. I think, you know, trump will not go quietly. He will destroy party and the nominee and people stormed the capitol. Yes very good storm. Tallahassee. We have a little less than 10 minutes left. So probably have time for just a couple more questions. This lady right here, maybe she should. The democrats should the democrats primary, joe biden and how deep do you think their benches. Wow, okay thank you. Thank you for the question of mark leibovich, a friend of ours wrote a column to that effect in the atlantic monthly. And i think that without myself as a reporter, the New York Times taking a position on this, i think that it is problematic on a host of fronts. The likelihood is great that damage will be done to. Biden should that occur, the likelihood is great that whoever does that will have damage done. Their own political career in so the chances that person winning are bleak and you know i think the democrats still feel and remember 1980 campaign where ted kennedy ran against jimmy carter and, i think those arguments would come up. And, you know, i agree with robert it wouldnt strengthen the winner of that contest. And i dont see that happening. I dont think anyones going to do it. As jimmy carter asked gerald ford, you know, you just when its recipe for disaster, having a having a challenger mean george h. W. Bush lost when bob when buchanan primaried him. You just dont come out of those Strong Enough to win general election. So i dont think theres a viable plan b given joe bidens age is absolutely a legitimate issue. We can talk about that. But i just dont think theres a you know, theres a theres a plan b here. Do you know how do you know, chris, how biden thinks about age issue or the people around watch me . You know, he says he says publicly its a legitimate issue. Yes. I mean, he concedes that. But but again, his argument is and i spent two years talking to, almost every one of joe bidens circle and i think ive been around long enough, know what im being spun. But i just couldnt find anybody thought that was cognitively impaired or unable to carry out the duties of a commander in chief. Now running for reelection. A bruising Reelection Campaign at the of 82. All right thats thats not easy. But you know i dont im not sure i answered the question but i but i think that you joe, we all know people who are 60, who are elderly and and we all know people who are in their eighties, who are firing on every cylinder cognitively. And it aging is a variant of visual thing. Well, let me just present a quick counterfactual. I think that you can make a case that biden. 2023 is a better president than biden 28 or biden 1988 would have been, yeah, i just i would like to offer im a little i like i dont i dont i dont think anybody can primary him but. I think that its a legitimate concern and that i hope that people in bidens inner circle are taking it very if there are signs because again, weve been discussing the threat. So the threat on the other side is great. I do think the democrats have a good bench actually. I think that there are a lot of potential people that that run. If biden was to decide not to run. So he clearly hes running but boy the worst Case Scenario is he starts to show signs of cognitive decline in his first debate against ron desantis. Right now thats thats thats what you dont want wasnt his state of the union pretty though would you would you guys he a great job and if that happens i think biden simply back in the next debate and says i will make my opponents youth and inexperience factor in this election. We have time for one last question. Can you pick someone, please . I someone who stood up a young a youth. I to hear what the youth had to say. So one question. Oh, oh, okay. So one question. Do you think that so alongside it dabbles into extreme ism of the mar of the 2022 opponents like cory lake . Dr. Ross oh, so sign of ill repeat the question when you back. Okay, so here now we have better volume alonso so, do you think that alongside the extreme, the more extreme sides of the candidates like cory lake or dr. Oz, and do you think that a lot of their the experience or lack of it was a primary contributor to how many of them spectacularly lost the elections. No now we see inexperienced people win all the time and we and being much more experienced people i do not think that that was it and i was completely nuts. Yeah i think the proof is in the pudding. I this is know ive went to now the turning point usa up in phenix a couple of months ago i was spending a lot of time with you all in arizona youre the hotbed and cpac and they dont none of them want to just recognize reality which is boring regular republicans one like whether they were experienced or not i you know whether theyre old or not whether theyre past or not like mike dewine did, one, brian kemp one like they won. Republicans that lost or the ones went along with the crazy and and i just think that was basically it. I mean along with with abortion like those are two things that matter. One interesting thing, though, is that, you know, we talk about the governor races and the senate and how crazy to not work their crazy did work on their house districts. And, you know, it didnt work as well as they thought it would. And a Midterm Election with inflation, you know, the republicans are expected to have a better majority, but it still signifies guys that, you know, Many Americans are, you know congressional districts and smaller races are willing to vote for of the most extreme election denying candidates. So there you know the Republican Base that you talk about out is very strong. And the way our system works and the way its divvied up still very, very potent politically. And were going to see, even though theyve been very clownish in the last of weeks, this war on government policy responsibility. And hunter biden and hunter biden. Hunter biden from the house. And we dont yet know if that will have impact one way or the other in shaping the 2024 landscape. Lets give all of our panelists a big round of applause. 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