Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jennifer Palmieri She Proclaims 20240711

Shannon from Wisconsin Public radio. Thank you so much for being here as well and moderating this conversation today. As always i want to thank the library and the Public Library foundation for the ongoing support of free cultural events through the wisconsin book festival. It is one of the great pleasures of this year for me that we are able to do these events virtually and ring is altogether even if we cant be all together. But we also have been expanded. There are many people from madison, many people from wisconsin with people from across the nation and across the globe so that is one small wonderful thing that has occurred because of the pandemic. We are grateful for it with with you today. Most notable are grateful Jennifer Palmieri is here to talk about her book, and i will turn the proceedings over to jennifer and shannon and and il sue at the end. Thank you so much. Thanks, tremor. This is so much fun. Thanks jennifer for joining us today. It is fun to be able to be in these different places and i am in medicine as is conor. Are you in new york . Im at my husbands family sells in new jersey. My post was coming but is a beautiful that i know we do back up to a beautiful its nice here. I am really happy to be talking with you today. I loved your book and is reading, i just like to sum it up with her feel like im hearing this from a friend, talking to friend. Its so painfully honest. You have in the background but she proclaims is jennifer his book. The thing that really hit me hard is how women always dies after every ball. I kept thinking about that etiquette thinking about that as kind of a driving force of so much of what you write about. Why do we do that . Should we be doing that . I think we do that because were not quite sure if you fit in in the workplace, not quite sure we belong. I think is the same doubt that makes us think we are in competition with other women for a limited amount of success. When i first started working, which was in 1988, my first job, i worked in a Congressional Office and ended up going on for obama and i was like lucky to have this great boss. I felt like i learned about politics from the men and women both but i definitely look to the women to see how am i supposed to be in the workplace. I found the women did their job as they were assigned but they also did everything that needed to happen in order for the institution to run. Whether that was the job or not. Admin, like at the end of the day, well, the women would have since if i leave im going to be the first asked to go. I think we have since that we are not quite established there. What i realized was i ended up taking about the value something that person could go for every ball. I like hearing from my colleagues, we couldnt possibly get with that jennifer and shes always so reliable, and i was proud of that but what i came to realize was i was taking too much value from that and not enough value from things like i dont know, hey, scholarly, how we actually pay you women. Its a simple thing that sort of the overall premise of the book is that we just dont always in the world and how we shall we value men over women. That real equality is when we stop doing that, in ways that spilled into the marketplace as well what we hear, men and women both German Forces were clery than here women, like all the ways we should value women of the mint. Do you feel like how do you feel like you have improved on that and write about we are simple page is a member the Washington Post for many years, i wrote about technology for the business section and i always felt like i was often the women in the room but had to do more as the woman in the room. I kept thinking back to that. A little older now, i feel like i can say no to things a little more. Do you like that helped . I do feel like that helped. I feel like i can say no to more things but it also want myself for you or women to leave behind the good skills we develop. There may have been things we have done to fit into a mans world that meant when working harder than men. But it does mean the answer isnt acting like them. The answer isnt just act like men. I dont want to do that in the world would be pretty uninteresting if we did. Its like i want to be more conscious of it to make sure im diving for every ball and, therefore, uncompensated for it, or i work later on a piece of writing that others may do, other mean they do but i just wanted to be that good. Its about being conscious of why shooting what youre doing and making sure youre getting something in return for it. I want women to read this book. The whole time im writing it would have hit is youve got this. Like youve got this. Theres nothing left to prove. You do have some other herbal you have to go through. You dont need to have life and of your resume one more time, iq are fine as is and the things that are holding you back a lot of what you been internalized. Let me explain why get internalized those things. Theres a good reason. That is, i hope it gives women tools to do that. You mentioned pay which is important. Do you have any advice about asking for a raise or asking for more money . One of the hardest things i think so many of us do. I read a lot of interesting studies about it, like lean and did a study, a number of ago, the founder of loan when innocent i deserve a raise and i want it because i am worth it, she got the race once but she never got promoted again. But the women who came in and said i need a raise because it is demoralizing to my staff that i am not paid as much as the male colleagues and its hurting our ability to be productive because people on my staff dont feel badly about it, the new woman got the race and continued to get promoted in the company. I am not saying thats what we should do. Exactly what we should not do but it just shows you how come the something other than politics in the Clinton Campaign. We were told hillary ambition to be present at it is expressed and wanted to be in service to others. We still expect women to be selfless and maternal, so your race has to be because it will help some of those. I think now what i realized is even if it is a little uncomfortable, even if you do get a little blowback we just have to be forthright and asking for what we deserve. If you get blowback, its better than this. I also think about the status quo. In terms of realization i had because when i started working i thought the womens Rights Movement was done. Did you think that . I thought that was something to happen in the 60s and we are good and maybe ill have to work a lot harder than the guys but eventually it would keep getting better. In my own career i had a great career. Its not like i feel like munich i do hold me back. Definitely not. They still rose with faster than i did. I was Deputy Director House Communications directed work for a guy who was ten years older than me. He does not think he is ten years better than he. He doesnt think that. Its just the system, he rose faster and its like understanding your operating within a system that has devalued women. That is why, this is why the Women Soccer Team has to sue to get paid what they are worth is because we built a system and just to get out from underneath the system. If we get a little blowback compared to with other women he had to fight to get as to this point, whatever, thats our role. We have to move forward, drop, fire. Thats what happens to women to move forward but it is better than sitting still. You mentioned making change from insight out which are think is a great way to about it. How can we make change it now . I will just mention i was just reading statistic about how many women are leaving the workforce right now in the pandemic and its stunning but you probably seen some of the same. How can we make change when women and working parents are leaving the workforce and we need to not just make things a little better . We need to entirely. [inaudible] women are independent women are come have suffered the highest number of layoffs. Also most likely be in an essential profession that is underpaid. Talking about teachers, healthcare workers, and they are bearing the burden at home. All of those things have combined come as my friend say, its not worth it anymore, i can do this. Im not going to go back to work. This is a pivotal moment. That means inside individual workplace and collectively outside of the world we band together to say this is just proving how broken all of the systems are, that we dont have childcare thats provided that this is not the service and is not affordable, that we dont pay teachers and home care workers and childcare workers enough. All with these things revealed his women are not valued, but they were expected do this kind of work that makes the world run for lesser and repayment to doe things that they have traditionally done in the world. Im not saying the slightly like this is a pivotal moment. Either we will do that, and i believe women just add that fire in is that were going to fight for that. Or women could really suffer a generation long setback in terms of having power in the workplace and that having the option of working outside the home. How can we turn that in the right direction . Is some of that helping each other . The premise of the book is to support women. When you believe yourself to be in competition with other women, you would think this is the place for men and women have to find each other, and i think believing that as so many of us have internalized, i believe that is what will he keeps the cap on things. Because if you believe it affects how you engage in the workplace, youre not a good advocate for yourself because ten times a day youre being sent signals that tell you men are more valuable than you. From like the music we hear on the radio to every time we see a Television Show critical, who is the writer . Who is the director . Who is the executive producer . The athletes and what they are paid, just all these ways we absorb constantly. Think about them, no wonder we have a hard time asking for a raise. No wonder a parttime advocating in our own families that the burden would be shared more evenly between men and women. But it is like understand that come nowhere come from and then go fight for it. We all agree, i mean i do feel its important to understand i dont feel like men tried to hold women factor i dont think thats whats happening. We all agree that women should have the same opportunities as men and now were to get into the nittygritty to dismantle these systems that have been built that curry all of these obstacles that exist in real life, like the ones that working women are finding now. Who have been some of your mentors in years past . What have you learned in bringing that forward . Valerie jarrett was a fairly important mentor of mine, and advisor to president obama. I met a relatively late in my professional development. I was 45 when i i came to the white house. And i would always want to support of the womens i made a point of trying to hire women, try to particularly women of color because Democratic Politics and they dont always walk the walk when it comes to being good advocate for people in your actual workplace. But i was one of those women that like went to like i do instinet all the girls get together and have low power session. I was never one of those women who do that because i thought it good to limit of the women for support it meant you couldnt hack it in the mans world, right . Then and that valerie who had a different view, a beneficiary of law to support she can become a lot of backing she gave me, who subjugated when theres no reason for her to do it and i realized you know what, i cant hack it in the mans World Without a womans health. Not only is nothing wrong with that come to something empowering about that. What a fat in the last few worlds, years were embrace this notion that women do need to band together so were at least not in competition with each other but also support each other because it is harder and i found if i could give my younger self one piece of advice it would be women are not your competition. They are your support system and you treat them as such. It rebounds in you and all of these ways. She and particular, in terms of female mentors really important. Another weapon to write about in the book and dedicate is Evelyn Lieberman who is a deputy chief chief of staff for president clinton, the Clinton White house. The one sentence she said to me is people take their cue from you. If you act like you belong in the romcom people will treat you like such. I find it harder for women, is hard for people of color but bi really find that to be true. Naturally interesting. The title of your podcast i think is tell us all a bit about that. Has to do with hillary clinton. Yes. The podcast is called just something about her, and during the Clinton Campaign we get a lot of research why people did my killer and what we would hear over and over again in real life, this is something about her i dont like. Theres just something about her i dont trust and they could not be specific about it. Was just this thing. I think that thats what we are now, like in the intangible conscious gender bias territory. With hillary what a think happen is that she was somebody for the course of 40 years was always stepping outside of the role that women have traditionally played from when she was a very young woman in college to when she was like a lawyer, didnt change her name when her husband was the governor of arkansas to the first, first lady worked on policy to the first, first lady to run for senator its not any of it was so radical in real time but it was just a little we dont recognize it. I didnt appreciate before work for hillary how important models are and what he does look like. Theres something vaccine about her come something confounding, theres something about her i just dont like. It reminded me we often get criticized if we sound too feminine. People even say i cant quite say come to what i dont like about that womens voice but i dont like it. We would get advice in the campaign on the campaign he would fight for hollywood like big directors and stuff with sandisk memos to say she needs to be strong and we have to see a vulnerable side. She has to a commanding presence, but we need to see something a little softer. I was like, these people really smart i should take others advice. Finally i was like this makes no sense. Hillary said tell them this is really helpful, thank you, so helpful. But what would be really useful would be if you could point to a woman on the world stage that didnt just write and then that would give hillary something that she could model herself after. Of course no one had an answer. You like fine, this is just people getting used to change. If its what we had to go through its annoying but whatever but we have to go through it. The podcast you interviewing women, right . And then right now women. Thats okay. Everyone can tune into that. If the what is it, what is the thing that like, and sometimes its women, its just something that i really like. Connie britton, and actors that come if you know cotton britton is and has the same reaction, oh, my gosh, i love her. I think what shes about an empathy and was and she brings to each of her characters. I interviewed the australian comedian, and shes a very challenging thing and for she is rejecting the way comedy was made. She thought was mean and the psychosocial change it. Its trying to identify with those changes are. Sounds wonderful. Going back to the election world for a moment, what a thinking these days about our current election . How do you feel . As you follow i am in, im on the show called the circuit on showtime, a weekly political documentary and my colleagues on the show often tell me you are having posttraumatic stress and you are seeing problems that are not here. I hope, jews believe were on the cusp of, we are on the cusp of, i think its up your booklet about and i think thats great. I hope all donald Trump Supporters cannot. I hope all of the joe biden supporters cannot and we see really are. I think if that happens joe biden will win. But what i hope is that if were really on a precipice here and if things could be very ugly after the election even turn violent, or the could be a point where people say i really want to start understand the other side and start to break some of these divisions down. I travel a lot for this show, talk to a lot of come im always a democrat but i talked to a lot of Trump Supporters to understand what is it that they see in trump that i dont appreciate . What is it that they see what america is going that they want to change and see if theres any place to come together. After 16 of something thats what we would be. I was hoping we would have reckoning for the resolve come agree to certain principles and before. Obviously that didnt happen. I am an endless optimist and the people that can happen now. We are all watching. We will see, well see. It could last longer it could last longer. If biden has a big win on that Election Night i think it could end quickly. If he doesnt i think it will go, it will come it will go on. It has potential of being residents election like we have never seen before. I wanted to ask about different generations. You and i are generation x just like holding the place to give as weve always done with no credit. Nobody cares about our trials and tribulations. Were just getting stuff done. I relate to all of that switch in your book. I can work with the other generations . I have teenagers, a c17yearold and a 14yearold, both girls so i kind of see their world. I work with people of different generations which is really interesting. I have to say having older, younger colleagues is really fascinating, else me a lot. How can women of different generations help each other next generation x x because were so small i think weve always been bridges. I feel like, i work for a lot of baby boomers and then work with a lot of millennials and weve always had women, weve always been very institute about how we can fit in and what we can be useful and observant in that way. I try to be a good mentor to a lot of women. A lot of journalists, if you can imagine, because a lot of the women journalists, and is good because i find they dont accept things that i accepted about how they were treated in the workplace. One of them said to me, what is the biggest role of your generation . I think it is to be a bridge and say not like with anger or resentment or an inability to hear all of you to say, explain like this why weve got into this and where we are. Is why weve internalize all these things. But to explain and i said their job was to not expect to do the men. I expected to do worse than the men. I expect that. Thats creepy. You should not expected to worse than men. The job is not expected to worse from it and call it when it does happen. Older women if you have a standing in the workplace to see that as that support them because sometimes they are not in position to do that and we need to do that for them. I looked at it from going in the direction from older the younger. I have looked at it from like the responsibility under generation to the older generation is although i try to learn from them. I certainly listen a lot and i think the millennials in gen z can help explain to us there but for older women if you have the power you have to use it to younger women are they will end up in the same spot that we are. Cant do that. God. Quite the cycle. I wonder if theres some things about when you worked for president obama, being his medications director, is it something you can tell them something that would surprise us or a surprise to you about the way that worked next most of us, we see things from a different perspective from outside. What surprised you from being on the inside . One thing i would say when it worked for president clinton and president obama is however chaotic, this will alarm anyone but however chaotic and looked on the outside it was always worse on the inside. [laughing] in the end, and it would think about working white house because of work for president clinton and at for young age, t gives you a conference in the world could you realize theres hard problems in the world, and even the the president come whr bill clinton and barack obama, two brilliant men, they they dont have all the answers either. I think you think its probably a very heady experience to be in the white house and it sells you with confidence and bravado, actually its very humbling because even with this talented and smart people who are around there, theres a really tough issues you deal with and theyre not easy answers and you feel very inadequate and i think most of the staff meetings, and bravado attitudinal overcompensate that would be a little cynical, like this matters because their frosted by the inability to change things. I think what people would be surprised by is just how really hard it is. President s are desperate to stay at least the i worked for, and they dont think that all the answers. One thing i wrote about in my first book, dear madam president , was president obama, that i saw in every meeting he would go rent a a room at the d ask him if you had city think you would ask you you thought. He wasnt just being nice. He was desperate for input. Usually people had spoken for women and people of color, take a women of color and that the most insight because they told him something he had not heard from a, i mean, the whitening in the room that had the same jobs. They got real insight from a different perspective, and that i think is good to know at least about those tonight and he gave me confidence to know if something had been sick and if you have a different view, but its really important that you do. How are you doing now . Fine now but it is i was never sick, i never had really high fever and i was never in the hospital but i definitely was sick for about six weeks. I found it difficult to move around a lot. First two or three weeks was like a flu and i had a hard time getting full breaths and it took probably 2 and a half months before you felt your normal self again. Its different for everybody. Its no joke. And, you know, i had a book in the middle of the pandemic and you see the opportunities slipping away and the fear that everybody had to face with facing that unknown. With the book launch, you figure it out. We do this instead. I do feel lucky, i travel a lot and been able to see how different communities are dealing with it. And, you know, america is remarkably resilient but, wow, it is i i very much see in real life the two different universes of what to believe and what not to believe and people live in do you travel in seeing different communities. Youre seeing and hearing still in person . Yeah, we do. One of the best things on being on the show you get a weekly covid test. Its really good. We have been doing this for 12 weeks, 10 weeks. And its worked, but, you know, covering a president ial campaign in the middle of a pandemic is mind blowing. If anything that occurs to me, as disruptive as its been, we havent absorbed what a big deal was and is, i think, you know, like you had december 6th, 1941. Yeah. You kept going not realizing after december 7th that the whole world has changed and i think we hadnt processed how much its changed. I think youre right. You kind of react to what you need to react to. Go, go. The election and civil Rights Movement thats happening in the country is part of it and the pandemic and we are kind of we are in it and its hard to see history when we are in it, really. Yeah. You write in the book about how we need a next wave of Womens Movement. Is that possible, is that happening . I think its happening. I think maybe like you said before, we thought we were okay. Yes. So it takes them a little bit of rethinking to to realize we are not. Yeah. Yeah. I think that we thought we were, it changes hearts and minds and i do think i mean, not to be i mean, i know not not all women, theres plenty of women who support President Trump and did not have this experience that i did but a lot of women in america did which was the outcome of the election was sort of a tipping point, oh, ive been playing, wow, those doubts that ive had in my gut all along that women are playing by the wrong set of rules, i think that that the outcome of that election, it just flipped a switch because we thought if you know, hillary the way i look at it. She did everything i was supposed to do. She hit all of the marks. One of the most experienced people to ever to run and still we had the outcome. Throw the rules out the window and we will engage in the world differently. When i saw the millions and millions of women who turned out to womens march, things are changing, we are not going back, this is going to be sustained and i changed my life greatly since then and the way i engage in the world and millions women doing that, people running for office, people in the arts, me too. But this is a big seller and i think there is a new Womens Movement. I mean, look at young women too who are mostly demographic in america that men have it easier than america are millennial women. It is not baby boomers and not genex, its the younger women in the workplace. They see it and they are going the change it. I think we are in the middle of this is a third wave, its like the fifth wave of feminism. Interesting. Anybody who is out there, put your questions in. Youre doing this in crowd cast and you can write your questions in for jennifer and i will start asking a few but everyone kind of come in with your questions about any kind of thing. Lets see, can you talk about intersectionality and how white women use space at the table yeah. So and i wrote about this too that whats interesting about the Womens Movement it started with abolition. So abolitionists in early 19th century, womens right was born out of that and the women had right to vote they would vote, civil rights for black americans, suffrage rights for all women were aligned for a long time and then they splintered and that was after the civil war or before the civil war but passing of of course, not really because of jim crow laws. There was a split and, you know, white there was a really great debate that Fredrik Douglas and Susan B Anthony had in albany of Civil Rights Convention around the time, like 1870, where Fredrik Douglas about women whose right was more urgent, white women or black. Women because they are women are taken out of their homes hung on trees and women because they are women an her need is urgent as mine and until then mine is more urgent. It was remarkable to read and im paraphrasing because thats true today. Black men are treated in america and i think, you know, what ive encouraged white women to realize is that even within your own life youre not you dont feel responsible for what came before you, you have to appreciate that legacy that it was a white women who falsely accused man and that it was a white women that falsie accused of harassing her that led to his murder and long line of white women, you know, we are part of but also that, certainly true for me, while i didnt feel satisfied in my sort of patriarchy and white women can be, i dont want to rock the boat, i dont have it great but i have it okay and want things to be okay. And so we are not pushing for other marginalized populations and not pushing for ourselves because we dont want to risk the little purge we have. Youre not willing to risk purge, youre perpetuating systems that keep people of color for having justice and rights and opportunities they deserve. You also were hurting yourself. White womens need for equality in the world is not as great as people of color. Its not but we deserve it to, right, and the same Power Systems that block peoples from power. How movements can help each other . They are pinned each other and thats why keeps white males in power. When you support each other, thats when real change is happening. And then we had savory and slavery and how people were treated and women were excluded from the start and my hope is, its not for certain, but my hope is that its early enough that we can still repair repair these injustices and build new Power Systems, vitalize democracy but i also it may be too late. Maybe too much justice. Well, we have another question from someone who is a fan of madame president. You talk about being a fire starter at work. How can one be a fire starter . Women now how to calibrate. We do. We calibrate everything. And air on the side of being a fire starter, air on the side of you have to air on the side of being a problem. If all women do it, safety and numbers and also what we know to be true in our own life and so you have to back women up. Cecilia munoz made great point, everybody thought it was really smart and nobody acknowledged that it was cecilias idea from the start and even when i didnt i view with my ideas. Kathy had a great point over there, thank you, kathy, for your great point because we have to lift each others voices up because men and womens minds are programmed to hear men over women. And so you have to, like, be a sister, support each other and speak up and i do, you know, this sounds naive, to assume good intentions on everyones part. That may be giving somebody people in the room, maybe giving men in the room too much credit. But if you act as if again going back to liebermans advice, people sort of accept it. Valerie garrett, dont wait to give permission, dont ask permission, take ownership of a problem and people including the member would be glad that you did. And so i think that we we get a lot of blowback but we fear it more than what we are actually going to experience it. We cant accept the status quo. So we have a followup question to what we talked about with the pandemic, so the pandemic has put so many women out of work and theres greater risk of authenticity and this is the right time that women have to hang onto what they have . If youre not in the position to i hear that and, my gut tells me thats wrong. My gut tells me its wrong to wait. My gut tells me its when you have big problems that you can change and you can really change the world. But each individual women is in a different situation. You can push it and push it on behalf of other women, marginalized people, do it. I really believe that women assume theres going to be more opposition and pushback that we cant handle than there actually is. Either because the pushback is not as much as we thought or we can handle it, but you got to you have to foresee issue because its dangerous. Yeah, yeah. This is a question. What do you think we should do as women to further the feminist women in terms of law revising and more representation in the government and other workplaces that are predominantly men . Run for office. They dont think that anymore. Theres this whole notion of as is, im going to run as is. Women said that organically, resulted in huge numbers of women being elected in 2017 and 18. When women run for office, they win, they have a better average than men. Take it more seriously. That is how we dont need a lot of change in government, we need, we need women to do best. I do think that passing the era would help in part because the discussion that the ratification process would spur i think really would open peoples minds to all the gender bias that we do hold. Men and women both, i think that conversation would help in politics on the democratic side, sometimes we will we find that more voters, more people of color turn out when there is Something Else at stake like a vote, on the ballot thats related to voting or power and that turns more people out. It just sort of tells me how important the debates are. They can affect peoples minds. I think the era, just to go through the process would be an addition to having constitution, would be helpful. How realistic is that. My teenage daughter, how is it we could not pass that. Women turn on each other. There are times when women almost got suffered in 19th century and group of women organized to stop. When women are put against each other, we lose. Era is classic example or warning of that. Theres no way that it can be stopped and women organize to stop and successful at that. Theres no more powerful weapon to use than another women. It came down to tennessee and the day of the vote, antisuffrages thought they were going to win, one man, henry burn and mom had written him a letter. Everybody thought that he was going to vote anti and his mom wrote a letter and said, you need to give women this right. Tennessee was last basically the last hope. It almost didnt happen. Women didnt support each other and it didnt happen and i am seeing and going out of their way to reratify it and even though they did it before, so i think it could happen again. It may seem like a small thing but it would spur other discussions. Its a free thing, right, as opposed to other changes. And i just think it could spur a lot. Is that something that youre working on right now . Its not, but sounds like i should. I dont know. I do. That in and of itself changes. Interesting. Theres a question about the Lincoln Project. Can you talk about that . This is a really good ad. Its images of women and, you know, in the face of trump as president and how he treats women that like to be, you know, i think targeted to men to be a better ally and support women by not reelecting him. We did a similar we did something very similar, i think it was called mirrors and it was like trump was playing over and young women, girl even, older women looking in the room as hes saying things about women. The Lincoln Project i think is really good at getting under trumps skin. They are really effective and senate races too that i think is helpful. They know they know how to speak to republicans and i think thats what they are trying to do there. Men and women that are on the verge. Do you think its working . Its i think that i dont know. I cant know if its working but it seems, its a really powerful, powerful ad. I think the project in and of itself is useful partly for debating of trump and getting under his skin and, you know, provoking him. But i also know, ive seen Trump Supporters supporting him, they get real purpose from his presidency, deep belief in him and, you know, he tells a story about america that makes sense to a lot of people. Sure a lot of people in wisconsin feel the same way and a lot of people in kenosha feel the same way. What do you think of the women my daughters ages, 11 and 14, they within the vote yet and watching all of this going on and kind of like many people amazed and, you know, i will get to vote some day. What would you tell the young women to think about and watch and do . That when we dont all engage in democracy. When we think its somebody elses problem, this is what happens and what this show their generation is there are tools to make this democracy actually represent everyone and really work and its on everyone to utilize them or else, you know, this is not president obama says that these rules are selfevident but they are not selfexecuting. And i hope that they look at that and think, oh, i can use, you know, i can use my voice, you see that with the protests and the summer after george floyd, how much that mattered. You see the way women express themselves in Womens Marchs and running for office and i hope they look at that and see that kind of awakening, the beginning of their life. Their lesson is i go from there and not go back to the ways things were before. And do you how do you see the democracy today. I was wrapping up radio programs this week. This is, you mentioned democracy. Democracy is at stake right now. It definitely is. I the show that we did will air on sunday night. It is about this. Its about the trump saying its a rigged election and all of the steps that are being taken to make it hard for people to vote and its Voter Suppression in a different, in a different form and what are the safety nets that that joe biden has if he wants to continue to fight after the election. This is not a drill. This is really this is truly democracy on the ballot and, you know, from my perspective. We have a president who does not follow the rule of law and, you know, you see how when you put the democracy in the hands of somebody who doesnt follow the constitution, its very democracy is pretty fragile. I do think that that is what i think thats what is at stake. If he wins again, im very concerned that the damage thats done to the democratic norms maybe irrepropable. What a time. Something to certainly Interesting Times to live through. I hope people see it as something they are participating. Yeah. Yeah. Participating, voting, being involved. Yeah, like in your own life too, its good to show up and protest if youre worried about Racial Injustice and good to vote but, your good ally in the workplace and people of color, if youre a white person, do you support the women in your life, do you support the women in your workplace. There are things that we can and i just really believe in the power of women to change the world, change the way you engaging in the world and you have, in fact, changed the world. Its great. Jennifer, thank you. Your book is fascinating. Thank you, so fascinating. There you are. Im coming back, i want to say thank you to both of you. This is just such a great hour. I think probably could have done a whole another one. Yes, please watch the circus on sunday night but also listen to the most recent episode of to the best of your knowledge and its all about elections. Democracy on the ballot. There you go. Youre watching book tv on cspan2, television serious readers. Here are programs to watch out for, programs from the recent virtual texas book festival featuring discussions on the 19th amendment and issues facing sports today and tonight mit professor explores how social media algorithms impact Public Discourse on elections, Public Health and more and professor and writer christopher on how she was denied reproductive choice and income for her children. During Virtual Event hosted by harvard bookstore, history professor martha jones described the efforts by black women to gain the right to vote. Here is a portion of the program. As i really began to reflect on what i was finding, i realized that first it was a core principle that black women had really arrived at 200 years ago, at the beginning of the 19th century and had carried forward really until our own time and this is the idea that american politics should have no place for racism and sexism and when i recognized that black women had been championing that view. When i realized how long they had been alone in sort of carrying that forward and setting be ideal in front that ideal in front of us i realized that they were, indeed, intellectual and political avantgarde showing this country its very best ideals. You can find the rest of the program on our website, book tv. Org, using the box at the top of the page search top avantgarde. Youre watching book tv on cspan2. Every weekend with latest nonfiction books and authors. Cspan2, created by americas Cable Television company as Public Service and brought to you today by Television Provider next on book tvs afterwords Kevin Williamson recounts politics and everyday lives of White American working class from travels to appalachia and interviewed by columnist salena zito. All after words programs are available as podcast