From you in your career. Thank you. Thank you. Booktv continues now on cspan2, television for serious readers. Welcome everybody to a house divided coming to from Abraham Lincoln book shop in chicago. Thank you very much for joining us today. My name is bjorn skaptason, and i will be the administrator for todays program. I just have a little bit of information to cover before we start. First of all the book were discussing today on house divided is tecumseh and the prophet the shawnee brothers who defied a nation and author of the book is Peter Cozzens and you going to meet peter in just a moment when he gets talking with Daniel Weinberg, the host of your show. For someone to tell you something about tecumseh and the prophet. Comes to us from alfred aiken off published and we thank them from publishing the book and helping katie peter on the program with us today. The cost of the book is 35 and it can be ordered from our website. Those of you who are watching this on the live stream, on facebook live, i will put a link to the order form in the Comment Section of the program and you can click through an order yourself a signed First Edition of it at any time. Today, october 27, 2020, is the release date for the book. Were declaring this a release party and we thank Peter Cozzens a for signing a special date of release bookplate. That means books that you order from us on this program will be a limited edition. I can tell how many books are going to be in that limited edition. That is up to you. However many books you order through this program you will get a signed limitededition bookplate from Abraham Lincoln book shop. This program will be rebroadcast on Television Later by cspan, and we thank cspan for participating in this program. I have one of the piece of information. Please leave your questions for Peter Cozzens in the comments section of this facebook post. Well do a q a after one hour comes when approximately 345 approximate 4 45 central time we will begin taking questions. But feel free to leave your question in the Comment Section of the facebook feed at any time. I think that checks off everything on my list, dan. So without further ado let me introduce your host for today who introduced the author, Daniel Weinberg of Abraham Lincoln book shop. Thank you, be on. Welcome to everyone. I was in the broadcast duties of the bookshop but there was a technical problem, some in another office instead. We can still see each other if you each other, and thats the object of this. Peter cozzens walked into my shop is what, 15, 16 year old back in the day in the 70s, and look where you are now, pete. What you have done. You have served as a captain in the army. Used in your career in the Foreign Service how many counsels have you been a . I was in embassy and amal, peru, costa rica and in mexico. Thank you for your service to us. You were awarded by the way the american Foreign Service association highest honor, the william rivkin award given annually to one Foreign Service officer for moral courage, integrity. All of that certain issue, and a so happy to be with you again. Thank you so much. You have been on the Advisory Council of the lincoln price in your author or editor of 16 books on american civil war, and indian wars of the American West. Your last book you were here with us, the earth is weeping, the epic story of the indian wars for the American West, is one that we still have and should be with this book on anyones bookshelf for the indian experience, the native experience in the entire United States. His latest book as bjorn just said is tecumseh and the prophet the shawnee brothers who defied a nation. Its 537 pages with terrific color illustrations. Well get to that in a moment. Its 35 and today if you order it you will get one that we are now calling a limited edition, otherwise we will have bookplates signed that will be inserting if youre watching this after todays program. The colorful illustrations, i want to show you a few. Please tell us of them briefly when we get to them. Just show what they are. Here is one of tecumseh, and they are all color. How did you get your publisher for all color in this book . To tell you the truth, it blew me away. It was their decision, the art director said he has given us so much pictures wouldnt do them justice to do them in black and white. They went the extra mile, extra expense for this illustration and i just, i dont like if you dont like to write alicia got a book with great pictures. Terrific. I cant say it is a picture book but it really makes it feel like that certainly. Also there are many wonderful maps throughout. Did you produce the maps . Who made the maps . We will see a few of them a little later on. I found them a great help in understanding the book and where you are because theyre so many players. Thank you. I provided background maps, maybe four or five samples and a indicator what i wanted on each map but ive always been a believer, you can never have too many maps, that they are critical and so i was able to prevail on the publisher to produce 14 maps for the book that i hope covered every possible area of interest in the course of the story. And i think they are crucial to understand because its difficult sometimes to know where everything is in modernday maps without seeing it in yours. Your last book as we talked about was the earth is weeping. In that you presented a cultural, Indian Culture west of the mississippi. Did you find the native culture in this book eat of the mississippi much different . Significantly different and that was a surprise to me. Significantly different in one particular way that greatly assisted tecumseh and tenskwatawa and their predecessors in building an intertribal alliances. And that is to say that once you got past the great conflict of the 17th century, and by the time the United States was born, the tribes east of the mississippi generally and particularly north of the ohio got along pretty well. They were not inherently a warrior culture in the way the tribes, in the American West work. It was much easier for them to formalize because there was not great animosity. They were not fighting over limited resources like the buffalo. These were tribes that were both agricultural and supplemented that with funding. It was plentiful deer population and we had agriculture. As the nature of the culture they were much less much more readily formed alliances than the tribes in the west. This is a dual biography and a little more challenging but i found it fascinating the way you put the two together. Theres also a number of battles in here, and you a good battle the story and make it exciting for the reader. You went into the inking culture and as well into politics of the Indian Culture, and also politics between all the players that were involved. There were numbers of them and will get to that. Your sources, quickly briefly but i want to get into the book. Your sources what sources were best for both felt like site and how biased with a perhaps and, of course, the indian side, i assume they were oral. Tony about the sources. What works best for you . One source that was critical for tecumseh early life, and that is a biography written by a fellow named Stephen Ruddell who is captured by the shawnee in a raid in kentucky when he was 12. He was captured and he was adopted into the shawnee tribe and became the adopted brother of tecumseh and they became very close. He was with tecumseh for a better part of 15 years and fought with them on raids against kentucky and rate of the ohio river and saw the maturation of tecumseh until his late 20s when rundell decided to return to kentucky, return to white society, become a minister. Although he and tecumseh remain friends even after that and visited one another. And he left a wonderful journal i think is very honest, very straightforward about tecumseh early life. That was about the sources also tenskwatawa, the prophet, in the 1820s, to the think of it of michigan territory, he related a great deal about shawnee culture, the indians way of life, traditions, religion, that was taken down by the private secretary. That was an extremely valuable source. And the british records, British Indian agent, Turkish Military were valuable to. I did a lot of work to the canadian archive. And tecumsehs utterances and conferences which american lives were very useful. There were some great material from missionaries who visited their village. I didnt have the wealth of primary sources that i had for the earth is weeping because the father back to going time, the scanner scare should they. I felt i had enough to really tease out the story and i hope both these men to life as human beings. We have many artifacts, and although this is not tecumseh but since you brought up ruddell, here is 1832 pamphlet that the home sisters were taken just before the black hawk war in 1832. I suppose this was something well get into the culture of maybe, one way to get into one part of the culture. How often were whites taken by indians out east and brought up as indians, even though ruddell then returned to the white culture . How often did this occur . It was very frequent, very common. Thats another way which the Indian Tribes east of the mississippi differed from the tribes in the west who tended not to take, to take captives and raisin in the society. Basically in the eastern woodland Indian Culture, the shawnee and others, it was very common, when you captured children and again as old as 12, 13, 14, sometimes even older to raise them as members of your society. Particularly among adults, very common to raise, to integrate women into the cultures. And even adult men were on occasion they were tortured and killed to avenge the loss of shawnee warriors for the warriors of other woodland tribes were killed in engagements, and that was the prerogative of the women of the tribes, thumbs up or thumbs down on them. But they more often than not were adopted into tribes through a ritual cleansing process, among those who are adopted into the shawnee were daniel boone when he was in his 20s, he was captured and adopted in the tribe id later escape. Interestingly, and i will wrap this up, when the british made peace with the eastern woodland tribes out of money at war, one of terms was the tribes would return their white captives to colonial society, and very few wanted to be repatriated. Most of them tend to prefer living among the indians. I have a lot of stories about numerous whites who are adopted into these tribes and lived part of their lives in the tribes and left a excellent records of the time among the indians. You gave a great tool of information. I want to quickly get into what the origins were of the shawnee. There were algonquin tribes and you devote a chapter to the way of life and the social, that tecumseh and the prophet grew up within. What was that, very briefly, what was that they grew up in . I know the shawnee were not a very cohesive try. They had five divisions. Right. Their origins are in ohio but they fled ohio when the iroquois sweat most of the algonquin people out of the ohio valley. It wasnt until the mid1700s that the shawnee reunited in southern ohio. They were a Fraternal Society as opposed to some of the southern tribes. A mans worth was judged by his prowess as a lawyer and a Hunter Company even though the tribes did not make war with one another come to the extent the tribes in the west did. They did conduct raids back and forth for horses for this or that. As a man your judged by your prowess, generally as aware, hunter and provided for your family. And the women were judged by how well you married, by how well your husband did as a provider. It was a culture that was semisedentary. They practiced agriculture and a wide variety of foods. Again, unlike what was there political makeup . There were five divisions, traditionally among the shawnee and each division traditionally was supposed to provide one aspect of leadership, one division, one provided were leaders, another division of e type provided your religious leaders. Another was known for being the providers of the shamans here but in practice though, those divisions kind of melded, and as time went by those differences became less important. Although your membership in a division did the fine you to a degree defined to a degree in your fraternal client. You had divisions, five divisions then you had numerous clans that were based on common paternal descendent. Your clan loyalty was first and foremost. Then your loyalty to your division, angrily to the shawnee overall was third in terms of importance. You have in your appendix numerous, 30 odd tribes that you put in there, some being divisions of the shawnee, which was very helpful to know whom they were within the book. I went back there a number of times to remind myself who they were. Thank you. You said were powerful enough that they were arbiters of indian strife. How did that occur . They were originally the most powerful algonquin tribes, but they were badly decimated in were sequenced the iroquois. But they maintain in their status, i dont member precisely how the intertribal negotiations with but they maintain their status as a called the keeper of the great fire, keeper of the Great Council fire. They would set the time and place of intertribal gatherings, intertribal counsels. When disputes arose between tribes, tribes generally would defer. Again that something that separates the eastern tribes in western tribes is they did not exist out on the planes or elsewhere in the west. That was unique to the tribes of the old northwest, the midwest. I think their status arrived from the days when they were the tehran, the most powerful among the algonquins. Theres a number of Power Centers in this book, the americans, the british, french, tecumseh and the prophet who came together many times, the pottawatomie and other indian leaders such as five metals in one. Having all these different Power Centers, as i see them, explain some of the ups and downs that tecumseh putting together this confederacy which were going to get you right after this. It was an indian maxim. I know it says everyman his own sheep. Was a kind of a fatal flaw in that regard for the confederacy, every tribe being its own chief . I dont want to put up a spoiler alert but that was a significant flaw. On the one in the early spoke just how strong becomes his character was another charismatic he was also it spoke very highly of just how compelling tenskwatawas religious and social doctrines were, that the indians of other tribes willingly subordinated themselves to both these men. Neither of them had any institutional or other means of compelling obedience from other tribes, much less their own people. The tribal leaders who did follow them, again they faced the same situation within their own tribes, so there was no compulsion. It was really eventually nearly 6000 indian warriors who follow tecumseh and tenskwatawa at the apex of the life did so voluntarily because they believed it was in their best interest to do so. Not because of any institutional pressure for them to do so or any punishment if they choose not to. There was a nativist religion fervor. Maybe you can explain its origins. How did the prophet advanced it . How widespread did it become . Was the origin perhaps a mistake early on of an early prophet . Did tenskwatawa use. Pgh yes absolutely. Thats a point i make in the book that tenskwatawa, although he undoubtedly was a most influential and in mechanisticd even more so than who gave rise to the ghosts ghost standt with becky was without a doubt the most influential indian prophet. He did not, that was a long tradition of prophecy among the east woodland tribes. When back to the 1600s. Going back he drew upon those influences. He was on record as calling himself the indian pontiac. Pontiac put a great deal of his success in drawing on the religious doctrine. He interpreted through his military and political purposes, and tenskwatawa then drew on both of their experiences. So he assimilated all these im sorry. I just want ask if tecumseh true on pontiac as well . Very much so. Pontiac, i mean, tales of exploits certainly worth told around campfires when both of these men were boys. They were only, the pontiacs war was only, was less than generation removed from the use of both these men. It was very much present in their lives. They both acknowledged the debt they owed the pontiac. Tenskwatawa brought a lot of novel things into his religious and social creative native violence in. He did draw considerably on prior profits. Were their dueling profits at all at this time in the east . There were. None that directly affected tenskwatawas much be on the first days of his ministry, for lack of a better word. There were a couple of delaware women who call themselves prophets that they eventually gave way to tenskwatawas. There was a mohican prophet but he limited himself to proselytize among the mohicans. Tenskwatawas willie never had a rival. Yet protege he had a protege who was in ottawa and proselytize and interpreted tenskwatawas doctrine. He had no real competitor in his time. Lets get into the characters of these two main characters in your book. William Henry Harrison spoke of tecumseh. We will get to in a moment as well, quite the lovingly. He spoke of their character traits. How did those traits serve him well . I know he had to learn to speak english early on, and that must have helped him. What was it about some of the traits he had . Harrison testament to tecumseh he wrote in a letter to secretary for he was so impressed with tecumseh he said if it were not for the presence of the United States, tecumseh easily could give rise to an empire as great as that of indian peru or of the aztecs of mexico. He was very impressed with him. Tecumseh was sort of the ideal of a shawnee warrior. His father had been a war leader. He was handsome. He was very selfpossessed. He was an outstanding hunter. He was very popular with the latest. Ladies. Even as a young boy he was able to attract quite a large gang of the fellow boys. He had a natural prison about it and ill set a great sense of humor and that comes out in the tales of some of his white friends, some of his pioneer friends that he is a a real god natured person. He couldve been terribly embittered because as as a boye was forced to move three times as a wife because the raids on his home villages. He maintained a real sense of humanity. He was if not unique he was unusual and opposing torture. Moral and ethical side to it. You tell a fascinating story about torture, what he did i do want to step on the end of your story, but he came across a prisoner who is going to be tortured, and he stopped in a very unique way. Yes. He had tremendous moral sense. He absolutely opposed making war on women and children under any circumstances. Again he really captivated all white seeking contact, even in these, William Harrison but also indian agents, indian traders, british military, British Indian agents. He formed a real high regard, he was a very charismatic man. The story i was thinking about was when he came across this poor white civilian who had been captured and is going to be tortured and killed turkey tried to stop them. His fellow chinese, didnt work so he just took, i dont know if it was a gun or a hatchet and just kill them outright so we didnt have to go through all that pain. That was as a young man. That was before he was even established. His early 20s and very, very minor that was something, a prisoner was considered to be like almost like a slave was to his own in the south. The captor and absolute right to decide the fate of a prisoner but tecumseh overstepped that very dramatically. What were his oratorical skills . How was he as an oratory . Michigan governor cast criticized it but others seem to be drawn to it. How well did he deliver the speeches he had to deliver and as well i know the chinese usually had the writer of the speech be different than the person who spoke it. Id seem to do both many times. Right. His most famous speech was a speech to british general chastising him for contemplating abandoning michigan and western ontario to the native americans. Very, very famous speech. The was drafted by another chief. Tecumseh, i have read accounts that suggest he was a tremendously effective order, really oratory. And other said he could be stumbling and mundane in the way he spoke, unlike most figures a lot of allegories in his nature to make the point. A jury is still out on that. He was a better than average oratory. The fact is accomplished leader and the so charismatic perhaps taught people to give them more credit for his strictly oratory skills that might otherwise be the case. I was surprised to find my research that his brother tenskwatawa seems to be equally able, when he was sober, we cn get to that. Tecumseh, i given, if i were great in as an oratory and a, i would give them a solid b. Lets get to the prophet, tenskwatawa. Im going to look at this tenskwatawa tenskwatawa, tenskwatawa. Tenskwatawa, right exactly. You see he is dogmatic, had pragmatism, at many times prevailed, as you said he lied create tivoli what his life depended on it. It is early years he was dissolute. How did he turned that around into a spiritual leadership . What were his skills as as a speaker as well that came out that helped him turn his life around . To me he would be a poster child for alcoholics anonymous. Thats remarkable. In some ways i find them, not that im a drinker, im not, but his dramatic translation with such that it makes him look in with almost more relatable as a human being than tecumseh. Tenskwatawa as a boy he was one of three triplets. He was kind of a runt. He was a misfit. He was a terrible hunter. When is a boy he shot his right eye out with an arrow. He became an alcoholic early on. Alcoholism was rampant in the tribes of the midwest and it was destroying the Internet Society of the west. He was a raging drunkard. He routinely beat his wives. He was a serial adulterer. He depended upon to great extent tecumseh and also on the husband of his elder sister for his maintenance, for his substance. He tried to paddle his trade as a medicine man and he was effective at that. One day in 1805 he was sitting before his fire contemplating, the rapid holism, the poverty, the disappearance graduate of the deer and other game animals they needed, the encroachment of the whites on the land. All of a sudden he was before this fire and you just fell into this deathlike trance, and it was so deep that tecumseh and his other relatives thought that he was dead. They begin funeral preparations for him. And then on the second he literally came to and told, had visited the master of life, having us into heaven, had all these incredible things he was told by the master of life about how the indians must change their ways if it were to survive. One of those was a must absolutely stop drinking. Literally from that day forward he went from being an alcoholic, complete desolate, to being completely from went to another on the basis of that vision alone. That in itself is remarkable. He stuck with it and he became literally a changed man. He treated his two wise much better. He became a model indian anyways, although that didnt necessarily extend to whites. Speak yes, he seemed to do that even though his medicine said one should do that. He was trying to get away from white culture but as i said he was pragmatic, as you say, and so at times he let white culture coming especially when they needed food or utensils or clothing. And other times of course his medicine drew him, to others to him becoming the prophet. It didnt always work for them. Sometimes he knew there was an eclipse coming just as tecumseh was once helped out by the new madrid earthquake. But all of this is in the book and is wonderful stuff. I really recommend people not just listening to this and getting the book from our talk here, but getting into the book. Get the book on your shelves. You will read it right through. It really is a wonderful read, as many of yours are, pete. Thank you. His medicine did not always help him out. No. It didnt help at tippecanoe, the battle of tippecanoe. He did not want to fight the battle of tippecanoe. What happened is henry William Harrison, the indiana governor, availed himself. Tecumseh was down recruiting among tribes in the south and they did a strategic error of telling harrison what is going to do. Harrison availed himself of the opportunity to attack tecumseh and take prophets down, indiana, and tenskwatawa was acting to a corner. He was forced to fight a battle against harrison and he prophesies that the whites would be blinded by a great light and would be easy to kill and indians would be invisible and several other prophecies like that. It turned out the first part of the bow because there were great campfire schooling. They did have an advantage but the one thing he couldnt solve with most was relative lack of ammunition as the indians had. They had to back off once they ran out of ammunition. Conventional history happens he was discredited because his prophecy did not come true at tippecanoe but that wasnt the case. He conveniently get himself out of that jam by saying a menstruating woman attached to the utensil he was using, which invalidated his prophecy, which is something that indians believe. So that got them off the hook for the time being. No one held in to blame for the lack of ammunition on hand. He and tecumseh became really when leaders on the purified indian life under an inking confederation, and to keep the security of indian land as well. What were their twin roles ask how did they separate the roles and use them profitably for each other . And did tecumseh internalize the prophet teaching is well . Tecumseh did believe his brother was a divinely ordained prophet. I have no reason to doubt that. They were raised in the same spiritual traditions. It would be unusual for him to have rejected that. Again and again as the threat from american tenskwatawa became increasingly flexible. He did not oppose contact with all whites. Americans in particular were to be avoided. The british and the french all right because they supplied, the British Particular at this stage, supplied ammunition and other provisions to the indians. Association with the british were all right. They were exempt. But as we grow closer to the war of 1812 and the encroachment on indian lands continues and the necessity for an alliance with the british throws, tecumseh supplants tenskwatawa in importance as the military and political aspects of the Alliance Rose into an extent overshadowed the spiritual and cultural groups of the alliance. You didnt talk a great deal about this but you brought in here and there. Tell us perhaps of the sibling rivalry. How did you detect that . May be that rivalry went on after words because you say that the prophet afterward was maligned in historiography. So maybe further tecumsehs repetition. Tell us about both of those. First, it stems from the fact that tenskwatawa preached a revitalization, rebirth of Indian Society outlined based on indian spiritual traditions that were completely foreign to americans. Really foreign to whites. It seemed almost barbaric to them because it involves hunting down which is an punishing witchcraft. Whereas tecumseh advocated he came on to the national stage, he was advocating a more pragmatic military and Political Alliance to resist for the american which is something americans could understand. But thats how they wouldve acted under similar circumstances. That plus the fact tecumseh was a great war leader and tenskwatawa was not, also caused contemporaneous americans to look more favorably upon it. And an episode in which he saved several hundred kentuckians from death by torture and murder after the battle of fort make, also raised preestimation of contemporaneous americans including enemies. As far as sibling rivalry, there was one occasion that caught me by surprise for tecumseh was at dinner with some british hosts and friends. He made a joke about his silly brother, tenskwatawa. I write that off as well. Tecumseh was trying to boost himself a little bit at his brothers expense. But he never disavowed his brother. And tenskwatawa, when tecumseh was a way recruiting in the American South recruiting among the creeks and choctaw in cherokee, tenskwatawa kind of did a little bit too much boasting to william Henry Harrison about how many warriors he had come. Really sort of rebounded against him. I think he did want to be too overshadowed by his brother. There was some of that. I want to show a map. It can be seen on the screen fairly well. I will hold for a moment so that people come if you come back to this, stop and see what the tribes were and where they were at the beginning of your book especially. Really what it want to get to is talk about the 13 treaties. There were between 1803 and 1809, and im going to go to them for for a moment and justd off the treaties that were there. The treaty of fort wayne, treaty of plant shaw, treaty of st. Louis, treaty of fort industry come treaty of southland, treaty of detroit, osage treaty, treaty of fort wayne and kickapoo treaty. These are all between 03 and 09. What was the cumulative effect of all these treaties during those years, and how do they turn up . They were all negotiated with the exception of two, all but but two that were negotiated by henry William Harrison when he was governor of the indiana territory at the specific behest of president thomas jefferson. Jeffersons policy was he wanted the indians to become completely dependent on agriculture and also so deeply indebted to unamerican traitors for goods that they would be forced to sell land to the americans to enable his dash at what did he call it . His empire kind of the empire of democracy of whatever to flourish in the west, allow for western migration from the atlantic coast. Harrison had marching order to get as much land on the indies as possible without provoking work. What harrison did, during the six years was negotiated a series of treaties with various tribes. They were often nefariously done. He would look for the most pliable leaders whose claims for particular land were rather shady and negotiate the treaties and the present them as fait accompli. Those six treaties took from the indians what remained to them with the exception of a small strip and northernmost ohio, took about half of indiana from indians. Took on paper at least the betr part of illinois will focus a number of years before it was settled. The treaty of detroit took part of michigan from the indians. It began to box in in a corner so that tecumseh and tenskwatawa and other tribes are limited to northernmost ohio, northern half of indiana and most of michigan and wisconsin. Tecumseh made it very clear. He said okay, we will accept what youve taken up until 1809. We will accept that, but no more. More. He drew a line in the sand with harrison and city go beyond that, that is grounds for war. Simple as that. Here in our shop we have a book by john sketches of western adventure they came out in 1836. This is the 1854 edition. And in that i found, it talks about antioch and the prophet and tecumseh are just mentioned once near the end. But talking about treaties and well talk about counsels as well. They talk about the councils for the indians. They are being very curious and let anyone to speak their say. They have right to the own opinion however absurd they appear to be. Then he also quote p year france wall who wrote in the journal of the voice of america, he said on the treaties for peace, generally all these negotiations of the indians in the negotiations they discovered a nobleness of sentiment which would do a letter to the most polished nations here thats how he viewed how the indians and natives were in their councils and amongst whites at the treaty negotiations. I i think thats a very fair characterization. I think the indians were far more sincere and adhere to treaties with far greater fidelity than the americans ever imagined doing, or the british before them. It really is remarkable just the contrast is really remarkable between the indians and the american and british in terms of just how seriously they took these results of these councils or result in treaties or agreements. Speaks pretty highly of them. Just as a footnote, in your of the book, the oath is weeping, did you find the same of the natives outlast . Did they have the facility as well . Generally speaking, with a few exceptions, yes. There were some tribes like the kiowa and comanche that were nefarious among other indians as well as a team very difficult to negotiate with and not being too good at keeping their word. But in general yes. I would give the nod to the tribes east of the mississippi in terms of their overall fidelity towards treaties. But as a rule they generally proved much more faithful to agreements than did the americans. Now, the were numbers of councils throughout this book continually. Java cafe in 1807 chillicothe i dont know if i will pronounces correctly 1805, the 1807 was important for tecumseh because he revealed his earthly vision for united indian confederacy. Right. The other one in 1805 the prophet reduced his doctrine of indian revival. What led them at those councils to bring up those huge ideas in which it was going to take over the rest of their lives . The one conference was held at the principal Shawnee Village in ohio, the village. Interestingly, 90 of the shawnees who continued to live east of the mississippi river, by this time about half the shawnee tribe that voluntarily migrated to present day missouri just to get away from the constant warfare and constant rating and try to find a safe new life. Tecumseh at the time in 1805 when tenskwatawa had his visions and was establishing his creed, was a minor war chief who led a village, only 100 people which is basically just 10 of the shawnee population remaining in the midwest. The principal village of the remaining 900 shawnee in the midwest, and the chief of the village permitted tenskwatawa to make his case to the shawnees and representatives from other tribes that came to attend that counsel, to present his doctrine and creed. And although interestingly it was rejected by those fellow shawnee, tenskwatawas creed accrued took root from other tribes as far away from wisconsin and michigan. Most of his adherence came from tribes, the vast majority, outside of the shawnee. Thats why that counsel is very important. That counsel in 1807 was with americans at a town courthouse. Tenskwatawa was still clearly the leader of the appliance. He says tecumseh and other more, actually shawnee leaders to go to chillicothe and reassure the people of ohio who were living south of the treaty line in ohio that they had come to shawnee had no hostile intentions. Thered been some rumors going around, some misunderstanding the shawnee were preparing to make war on the whites. He sends tecumseh and the others to say no, we dont have hostile intention. Tecumseh availed himself of the opportunity to say no, we have no hostile intentions, but we dont, we will not be pushed any further, that we have our limits, that this cant go on indefinitely as ohio wins at that time, to the credit, and particularly governor of ohio, the governors of ohio at the time were very forwardlooking men and real peacekeepers, and had no interest in any further indian land at the time. They took it well and they accepted tecumseh at his word. That was the first opportunity tecumseh had to speak his new personal doctrine before an american audience. From that moment on you begin to see not supplanting tenskwatawa but emerging of the two. What was the height of the power of the confederacy . What was the extent of land, how many tribes . Eventually the height of it was in 1813, just a few months before its rapid decline. Tecumseh had approximately trying to remember the right number right now approximately between five and 6000 adherents. These include a representative from tribes begin as far away as minnesota, wisconsin, all of michigan. There were a number of tribes that had about 2000 indians who had defeated the americans who gained down to detroit, ontario were the british and tecumseh were an voluntary submitted themselves to tecumsehs war leadership. At its peak he had about 6000 adherence. As i point out in the book come in a preference action, he had at the peak yet 6000 warriors and that was three times the number of warriors that sitting bull and crazy horse were able to muster at the blue bighorn which represents the absolute effigy of indian strength in unity after the civil war in resisting americans in the west. It was quite a significant force that he put together. You say william Henry Harrison was an interesting guy, as you show in here and get into his character. We wont do that right now, we dont have the time, but was he somewhat responsible for producing the strength of that confederacy because of his burning of prophets down at the battle of tippecanoe . And being on the treaty that was one treaty to many one treaty that was not necessary either. Indiana was still a very small territory but harrison for his own political purposes wanted to become governor of the state. Consequently he wanted more land to further his political ends. He provoked the conflict by negotiating wasnt atlarge attacked a plant indiana but there wasnt that much left for the indians. It was unnecessary to do that and it provoked the conflict. He was a remarkable self propagandist. He was able to convince the War Department and the president , president madison, that he received a great victory at keep the canoe. Strategically it was a defeat for the americans. The indians abandoned prophetstown but they later rebuilt it when he suffered casualties heavy than anything did. More importantly some of the tribes, particularly elements the tribes of ottawa farther north, wisconsin and michigan have not been affected directly yet on what expansion, they saw what happened to the indians at tippecanoe who are living on in the land, that was their land by treaty. They saw what happened and they said to hell with this, were not cant wait for this to happen to us. This is an outrage. Were going to unite with our fellow indians and resist these incursions before they come to our doorstep. It ended up really helping tecumseh militarily and politically. You portray harrison as deceitful and deliver a fake news, selfdeception, overreaching, political ambitions. He intensified all that hostility. But he was not really a bad guy. The battle of tippecanoe, i had gone to the battlefield and one can go there. Its a wonderful place to be, really can feel what that even though a bunch of it is overgrown out i think. Are there any artifacts besides william Henry Harrison tippecanoe and tyler to Campaign Pieces . Other any artifacts that come out of there . Artifacts or political fortune . Are there any artifacts . They have and use them on the battlefield. Is not a lot of artifacts just learned about one yesterday as a matter of fact, the curator of the museum in westport, missouri. They have one of tecumsehs tomahawks. That was news to me. I wish i had known that earlier. There are a few other in ontario but theres not much else. In terms of, about places to visit, this is tippecanoe. Unfortunately a lot of the sites are overgrown by suburbia, but one place i recommend very highly for those of you have lived in midwest, especially if youre in ohio, visit outside harrisburg in northernmost ohio. Its a remarkably reconstructed, reconstruction of the fort, twoacre fort was built by william Henry Harrison in north 1812. It was a sight major battle between harrison and the british and tecumseh indians. Its a remarkable stock it, remarkable place to visit. Fort malden is also worth seeing. That was the british headquarters in western ontario parents also tecumsehs headquarters when he was fighting with the british. But, unfortunately, a lot of the sites have been overgrown. In fact, the place where tecumseh died in ontario, at the time it was forced in swamp and now i drove out there when we were up visiting and its farmland. You can be in central illinois. Its lost all its original aspect, unfortunately. Pete, before i go, bjorn is back on so we must have questions that have come from her audience. Say when lessing. Put this all in context of the question i think which we didnt discuss may not arise but the question is could tecumseh have prevailed . I believe that yes, he could have. That yes, his Indian Alliance could have with those one person who got in the way, napoleon bonaparte. Thats because the british were occupied with fighting the french and were not able to send enough troops to candidate. If they been able to send one more regiment the fight with the indians in the presentday midwest, upper great lakes, i think that at minimum they could have kept hold of michigan and that could have become a Bumper Sticker between the United States and canada. In fact, the british made that promise to tecumseh that that would be ending in homeland. If that had transpired the thal change the entire course of western expansion for at least a generation and couldve changed the whole Northern Boundary of the United States. Henry proctor certainly one of the indians to become he wanted to save the trunk of the north americanbritish area and let the rest of michigan go. But that didnt happen. We didnt get to all these battles. I really want to try to get to some extent fallen timber, battle of fort makes, chipper canoe, a little more. The worth 1812 and, of course, the battle of dams where tecumseh met his demise. All of these are splendidly put together in this book. Thank you. I advise you to read this through. I think you all enjoy it. I frankly was come youre going to use the word quixotic and whether was quixotic. But its interesting you say that come if another regiment, napoleon had not gotten out of russia so quickly, maybe something would happen over a year. I wondered the same thing. I wonder if it was quixotic. I think the trap of treating tecumsehs on light and fatalistic tone but was not a foregone conclusion. That was surprisingly as though as i researched. Bjorn, please take over. Sure. Thank you very much, daniel. Thank you, pete, for thing a little bit longer. Im happy to stay as long as there are questions. At the moment we dont have a ton of questions in the comments section although i will go and check them again but we did have a question from a friend brian and michigan. I am going to you the question but brian later commented hey, you answered my question already. Okay. Basically, maybe give a little extra thought to this. Brian wanted to know early in the conversation what languages with the primary sources that you consulted written in . Did you consider or did you have any problems with the validity of the translation . Thats a very good question. The sources were in english. As an american. Unlike the book im working on now, im using a lot of spanish sources and inbreeding those in spanish. The translations were better, believe it or not, a lot of these sources, translations for tribes at that time east of the mississippi, some cases later on among the tribes of the west because the translations were rendered either by mixed blood translators who spoke, who lived among the indians, spoke english and the tribal language fluently, or by indians who spoke english fluently. There was a better understanding of what anothers languages than might have been the case. I think the translations, i mean, you can never do justice with a lot of the allegorical oratory of these indians. A number of contemporaneous sources, of whites would say i wish i could do justice to what was said in shawnee or set in whatever other language might be the case. But i think they were pretty reliable. Interestingly, all these tribes formed the alliance, i mentiod in my appendix, i think it each drive in the alliance, i relate their languages to that of tecumseh and the prophet, whether they were mutually intelligible or not. Within these Tribal Councils you had interpreters translating from shawnee or pottawattamie, almost these councils almost like a battle. Right, right. Thank you, brian, for the question. Im going to toss in the question that i wanted to ask. Its a little bit broad so i will go along with what dan said. But do your best to answer it. We didnt quite get to the differences in, where there differences in tecumsehs diplomacy in dealing with the Southern Nations versus the west of the mississippi nations . Can you compare his effectiveness as a diplomat with those two regions . He didnt really do much in the way of negotiations west of the mississippi. Some historians have given him credit going farther west than he did. He spoke to the osage indians who were in missouri and had been enemies of the shawnee. He was very effective in his oratory but they appreciate his oratory but he was unconvincing to them. His oratory, interestingly, he went on his five or six monthlong journey, so adjourn for south, socalled civilized tribes, the shock and awe, the cherokee, the creek and the chickasaw, he actually traveled as his brothers emissary. He spoke not only of the importance of all indians united against this inevitable american encroachment, but also on behalf of his brothers religious and social creed. The problem was, with exception of of one element of the creeks, the tribes south of the mississippi were fairly comfortable. They had not lost that much land yet. They were fairly sedentary. A lot of them were slave owners themselves, and his message didnt really resonate except with an element of the creeks, which then led to the disastrous creekmore of 1812 which happens to be the subject of my next book. But the south was much broader. He would say we need to establish the confederacy that will reign in the americans both north of an south of the ohio river because were all facing the scene potential threat, sooner or later. Right. As if the threat was more exigent north of the high river. Thank you very much, and thats going to be thats my less question but dan, you have no ask questions . Elevator answers because we dont have a lot of time would be best. Quickly. Here is lincoln with some comanche delegation coming in in the 1860s. Why didnt tecumseh with his English Speaking tongue go and meet the president in washington, d. C. . He was invited. He and tenskwatawa were invited to come out and speak with president jefferson. There was an invitation given to them. Initially tecumseh said he would go. But by that point he really didnt see, at that time he didnt see he was fearful of being away from his alliance. He didnt entirely trust the americans and he just didnt see any potential upside from it. And by that. 1 of his principal allies, a pottawattamie leader had been at ease, had visited the president. Im sure told, probably told tecumseh, hey, its just not worth it. Youre not going to gain anything by it. Again quickly, are there any native historians today, is there a literature from the natives today that have their own interpretations perhaps of tecumseh and the prophet . I dont think it varies all that much from the interpretation that i put forward in the book. I think that tenskwatawa, he fell later in his life, and this is a topic in the last chapter of my book. His dogma, he kind of fell into disrepute among the tribe once the migrated west and settle in modernday kansas. So tecumseh is more highly regarded among the shawnee van tenskwatawa, but from what i read of shawnee sources, and that includes written material by tecumsehs greatgrandson, thomas albert, i think you are pretty close to the thought of the two brothers. Theres much more unity among the shawnee in the regard to tecumseh and tenskwatawa then among the western tribes among their own leaders. And lastly, you sent us this just before this program, that theres a new yorker article, nsa, november 2 new yorker, on tecumseh and tenskwatawa and its an interesting essay. Ive not had a chance to read it yet but i recommend this i suppose to our viewership. Do you have anything quickly to say about this essay . I was very flattered by because the new yorker seldom considers history books of any sort your what they new yorker has been doing of late from what i understand is they will take a book, history book, that they considered to be topical today to resonate with societal issues today and use that as a vehicle for an essay. In this case an essay by a distinguished harvard professor in which, this is in place of a book review. My book is mentioned and, therefore, it is a starting point for larger essay of how the treatment of tecumseh, tenskwatawa and indians of the midwest, how that relates to racial issues in the midwest today and elsewhere in the nation. It sort of brains the story of tenskwatawa and tecumseh uptodate in a wayvery compelling, and so i recommend it highly. What is your take then on, they and it i saw the ending of it, with the hanging of 20 20 indians, i think 28 or 32, after the minnesota depredations during the civil war that lincoln pardoned hundreds but let when he did hang. And today that is being talked about in that great terms for lincoln. What is your take . I think it was lincoln, lincoln had to make the decision he made. I think if he had rolled all the indians he might, he potentially couldve lost significant support among minnesotans militarily and politically. It was sort of a balancing act. Tecumsehs warriors seldom committed atrocities and their british commanders noted what atrocities they committed were limited to seizing property, stealing horses, stealing goods. But to their credit never rapede any women, didnt kill civilians. The indians, the sioux indians in minnesota, they had a great deal of provocation, no question about it that they really committed some of the worst atrocities ever committed by native americans against white settlers. The raping, the naming of women to doors and butchering of babies. It just, it was this build rage and just exploded in terms that were absolutely, even by the most drastic of indian standards were pretty extreme. I think the sentiment being what it was, lincoln had very little choice. And interestingly i found during the entire indian war period in the west, only three indians were ever hanged, and they were great deal atrocities committed against settlers in the west by geronimo and others of raping women and children and whatnot. Only three indians were hanged and they were responsible for necessity general can be at peace council. It was a violation of both indian and american terms of wa war. Thank thank you, peter. Appreciate you being with us here at the bookshop, even to resume. Its a great show and pleasure to see you. Even if only virtually. Exactly. Hank you again, peter, for coming here and for writing, producing tecumseh and the prophet the shawnee brothers who defied a nation. Again, if you folks at home wish to order the First Edition copy of it, it will come with a signed bookplate, signed and dated to show that you got your copy of the book from a book event happening on the release date. And no other sign it, release date, except those of my son, my city, my niece and nephew and my wife. Indeed it is limited. So it will be something to collect and be important and the wonderful for you after the event. Okay, just if you thinks wrap this up. Mica said, tecumseh and the prophet cost 35. You can purchase it from our website. If youre watching this on our facebook feed, facebook life for the facebook feed later there is a link to the order form in the comments. If you are watching this on our Youtube Channel after its over, we will put a link there as well. Ill link to the order page, go right on through in order a signed First Edition copy of tecumseh and the prophet. Now, you may be watching this on television, not too long after the event occurs, on cspan. So again if youre watching this on cspan and you wish to acquire a signed First Edition of the book, the web address is a lincoln bookshop. Com and youll find tecumseh and the prophet available for ordering right there. So thank you again to everybody who has participated take you to everybody who is watching, and well see you next time on a house divided. Heres a look at some books being published this week. Find these titles this coming week whatever books are sold and watch for me of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. Who has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Watch booktv on cspan2 today. A discussion of last mission to tokyo which i encourage you all to read. It is page turner whose license speak profoundly to today as our guest will tell y