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We are really grateful to you and your book purchases keeping us able to bring you this free programming which is especially important always but i think especially important now and a lot of us are feeling kind of confined and stuck we can at least explore all sorts of regions and places and facts with our minds. Thank you all so much for being here. One more thing, if you run into trouble with your screen if for example the video freezes or the sound gets wonky, what we found we recommend to people is just hit your refresh button on your browser i was a viewer and not a participant last night in our crowd cast and all i had to do was hit that refresh button and my video that had frozen came right back up. Fred has a question, do we have signed copies of the book we, do not currently but we will work with professor smith to get some sign books from him so we can get you a signed copy. With that im going to turn things over to our very own john grand, john grant has been with the bookstore many years and he is our nonfiction guru, all the booksellers go to him. Im going to take off the screen and give it over to our guest. Thank you john and carl for being with us this evening. Thank you. Thanks robert. Given evening and welcome to our discussion of chicagos great fire, our author is well known as an expert on American History and particular chicago history. Visa Franklin Snyder professor of english and american studies and professor of history. Emeritus at northwest university. It may come as a surprise to many of you that until now there has been a truly definitive history of the chicago fire, why is that . I think we are about to find out. Please join me in welcoming doctor carl smith, welcome. Glad to be here. Lets jump into this. Its worth noting that the chicago started on this very day october 8, 1871 149 years ago. Sometime between 8 00 p. M. And 9 00 p. M. So keep an eye on the horizon if it turns red its history repeating itself. Through almost that long this has been abhave been blamed for it and i thought we would begin by honoring davey and looking at where and how the fire really started. She was exonerated even as early as december i should say at least cleared by early december more than two months after the fire by the official inquiry by the fire marshal daisy is just to name somebody after the fact to Norman Rockwell given a painting of mrs. Oleary milking daisy. We hope definitively and finally they were absolutely exonerated by the chicago city council. Legends diehard and what we also have forgotten all of this is that the horse and the cattle not the calves were the first victims of the fire. It started in all likelihood in the fall barn close to it around 9 00 p. M. That night but there were dozens of fires just like it and things happen like this for whatever set of reasons a spark from somewhere, anything. But this one was unique in a kind of perfect storm of circumstances that allowed it to get out of hand so quickly and burn the city down. As far as the magnitude of this thing, it seemed that chicago was almost waiting for a fire of this scale. As you point out, there was a confluence of things that made this, as you say, the perfect storm, talk to us a little bit about that, what had happened and a the ambient things and then some immediate things. The ambient things was that it was a very dry summer, virtually no rain since 4th of july. What made this one particularly anxious was a combination of things, first of all, and the biggest one, the night before, about a mile to the north was another like any other comparison a major fire very near where Union Station is now. For four city blocks were burnt out and that kept going well into sunday morning the fire started on a sunday night. By the time it was over, much of the Fire Department equipment was damaged, about a third of the men were incapacitated. And exhausted, had fought for like 15 hours. And then six or seven hours after they were finally done, this fire began. The second thing is that there was a fatal kind of delay in the firearms in chicago had none of those men pumping things. A telegraph alarm system. For what reasons that have never been explained there was about and a half hour delay from the time the first alarm was turned in. The department was aware of the fire mostly by site at that point. There was a strong wind from the southwest of the fire started west of the Downtown South and west of downtown. If anything that landed into the north side it was basically the south whole downtown and hold northside over the greatest front of the fire. By the time the fired apartment got there it was already out of control and the final thing the per department was just much too small. I should say not the final thing. Chicago was built almost entirely out of wood. On top of all that the Fire Department was undermanned and things just got out of hand very quickly and then around 3 00 a. M. The fire started around 9 00 a. M. The roof of the pumping station still the same one they are on Michigan Avenue in chicago and no more water was to be had. Even if there had been, i dont think the fire couldve been stopped at that point. In the book initially the Fire Department was struck in the wrong direction. When someone in the coppola of the courthouse, which is what the city hall was called in those days spotted the fire. He told the telephone operator downstairs where the fire was and he missed it by a mile. This mightve been thrown off in part by the saturday night fire and embers still blowing from that. You mentioned at the time the Fire Department was considered stateoftheart, people have a great deal of confidence in the ability of the Fire Department to manage a fire and the fact a not quite. The city newspapers, many of them like the tribune and the Fire Department itself said we are very good but we need much more equipment, we need more pumps, we need more pressure. Thats right. What i was trying to get at that even had they been the finest Fire Department imaginable, the fire spread so quickly in which such grace and report with temperatures almost unbelievable. 3000 degrees fahrenheit. The half hour head start the wind from the southwest and the abthrough hot air thrust out burning pieces of chicago and through them further north and east. The fire is not a fire but multiple fires joining and gathering as it landed in a particularly juicy spot thats where the fire could leak the Chicago River not once but twice. People would try to hose down their buildings while there was still pressure and even that wasnt enough to stop. In the midst of this you tell an amazing member of stories that range from almost the comedic to truly pays us and very human recording of the way that people were trying to cope with it. Thats what makes this come to live. Obviously the driving narrative that it is it made 90,000 of them overnight homeless i read about 200 personal accounts of what peoples experiences were and as you say, tremendous range of wealthy and poor people, people of all ages, of immigrants, workers and the main thing is that first they thought, they were used to all the fires it would be over and it would stop and then slowly it dawns on them its not, stop. To grab their children, they grabbed their parents. They grab a canary, sometimes just crazy stuff, and they tried to say things also but by doing things that seemed almost impossible except in an account after account things like burying a piano people just carrying a length of hose or things that had great sentimental value like the painting of a dead child or Something Like that. But also strangely darkly comic things a person one man started to bury all his stuff and he got very overheated and took off his clothes and then finish the burying and look for clothes and he had buried them too. Someone seeing someone come out of his own house what the owners clothing on him. For stealing things saying, what the hell, better you take it that it gets burned up. The man leaving his house and leaving his house knowing hes leaving for the last time its good to be burnt up, locking the door. Deeply human stuff but mostly people trying to figure out what really matters to them. Also when people saw the downtown burning and they lived outside of it they were the kind of people would go downtown to get business stuff, the important papers. He basically threw a bunch of things onto a tablecloth and carried it out like out in a. S. A. C. As we were talking a little bit earlier if you look at some of the refugees in modernday also and mattresses the other thing that is so stark in this book starts with the cover of the book of course is the photographs of the damage they reminded me of the photographs you wonder how does this ever get put back together. Indeed as i write in the book, a number of the same illustrators and photographers helped photograph the civil war George Barnard had followed sherman on his march from georgia and took pictures of Charleston Atlanta and took pictures of chicago. Illustrated for harpers weekly previously not very long ago covers the civil war in the battle of ruins. How it came back remarkable story there is how quickly it came back and how robustly it came back and the reason for that is if such a terrible thing had to happen, it couldnt have happened at a better time. This is one chicago is on this major upswing, chicago was built by a lot of local effort of people people who come from all over the country and the world but they were largely funded with outside money from new york banks and east coast banks and european banks and so on. Who saw in this place a place to invest. It was this great inland nexus where the railroad all the railroad came together you cant take a train to chicago you had to switch it there if you wanted to go either way. It was a great place abthe Raw Materials of the Great American bounty of the midwest and the Rocky Mountain west came east and all the manufactured goods came west and people in every which direction, the same forces that built chicago in the first place then rebuilt it quickly right after its main asset was its location. Much of the infrastructure, the telegraph, the railroad, were not harmed. Also the stockyards were largely. The stockyards were four miles from downtown completely out of the way in the fire. The great elevators as well. You have at least some income, some capital gene generated employment. We cannot overestimate how hard of a time this was and how stunning this was and how the experience of other people went through in this period of great difficulty it did get going and it didnt really end and only pause with the Great Depression of the end of 1873, the panic of 1873. But by then the downtown that had been rebuilt was twice as big as the one hand the fire had consumed and people just never stopped coming to chicago it was just the place to go and by the time of 1890 there was a million people, three times the size it was at the time of the fire only less than 20 years later earlier. You call the fire titanic and world altering catastrophe beyond the grasp of imagination. And the number of people homeless, the number of buildings lost the numbers are difficult to accept even today. The numbers are almost miraculously low, maybe the middle hundreds, 300 to 500 one of the great coincidences although because of the dry summer its not such a coincidences that the very same night the lumber counter patch to go wisconsin near green bay went up and that to this day the single largest loss of fire and single fire about 1500 people was powerfully burned to death in the firestorm that happened that evening she chicago fire three square miles of 18,000 buildings unbelievable numbers. The press to go fire obviously get second fiddle to the chicago fire anyways people know more about the chicago fire and then the pressure to go but it was a horrific horrific disaster. It also speaks to what chicago was at the time of the fires. This nexus, this place the telegraph was in the trains all came through, it was as i talk about probably the first viral instantaneous news event so if you pick up the newspaper in new york monday morning while chicago was still burning. You mentioned that the failure of the cook bank in 1873 and then there is a second fire in 1874. July 1874 by most other standards and major fire just south of where the other one had been in the area like the south loop. Chicago only made those changes because right around the time of the fight and certainly right after it the National FireInsurance Association said we are just not going to write anymore insurance free people until you get a better Fire Department, better water supply and that sort of thing. The other thing you talk about as the rebuilding process goes forward its often hindered as much as its helped by politics. Politics or what we call socioeconomics would be abat the time of the fire almost 50 of chicagoans were born in another country most of them germany or ireland. And about 75 to 80 had at least one foreignborn parent and these people represented largely the working people of chicago who had small property but they were the people that had built chicago in the first place and now needed to rebuild it. Meanwhile they were told to keep their wages down because that would be patriotic that would take advantage of this terrible situation but Property Owners were not told on top of that there were other what we call this an attempt to say you cant build with web but a lot of working people said we can afford to build with anything else that would. It attempts to enforce new code which basically didnt exist it led to open melee on a Common Council meeting the city council was called until 1875 and then when there was various kinds of social disorder afterwards, largely wealthy protestant native born population saying this is because of liquor we have two informants temperance laws. They see this rightly as an attack on them as being inferior people. Meanwhile theyve got 60 of the votes. They say they have the best interest of the people and what you might call the people. You have the wooden shack to burn as quickly as the mansions did. Much faster. The problem there is that disaster isnt democratic. You can endure it a lot better, you might have more to lose if youre wealthy but you are almost more likely to have something in reserve somewhere else, youre more likely to have insurance and want to make very clear a lot of very wealthy people were pulverized overnight and it was a very difficult thing. That another thing that happened this elite that i talked about before took over the fire relief because chicago japan, germany, all over, sent the equivalent of now 200 million or more in aid but to the people of chicago but a small elite who have control of this and tried to use that as a way to get working people back to work and rebuild the city largely as the way they wanted it to be. There are some famous names that have come out of this story. In many ways a whos who of the civil war. Partly because the city was, entirely because the city was burdened and it led to a highly illegal military force, in the days after the fire. Sheridan himself didnt think the worries were warranted but was willing to do this to try to calm the public mind. He was not coincidently in chicago because he was at this point the general in charge of the west up to the Rocky Mountains. He commanded the army from there so he was already in the city at that time. He had troops summoned and a volunteer force many of them completely untrained. The face of the city begins to change fairly significantly too. Some of the things most inadvertently to combat fire but this is a slower process. Very slow process. Chicago Property Owners were dragging kicking and screaming the main reason they wanted to do whatever they wanted and they wanted to they didnt want more taxes. They said working people wanted to be able to build their houses as they did. What the fire did is it accelerated things already in progress. It cleared a lot of terrible buildings including some right in the downtown area. Property owners were making a lot of money saying its incentive to get rid of and it cleared a lot of that out and moving where more and more people moved out of the downtown and industry moved out of the downtown and parts of the downtime became more differentiated as wholesale and so on, this enabled by something already in progress at time of the fire the rise of streetcars and commuter trains and the new suburbs in places like evans dead or written side dont like riverside or others or hyde park, which is not part of chicago but now you could get to much more easily than you could. Theres an interesting book on that called chicago the growth of metropolis that looks at the way the rail lines forced a growth of necropolis and extension of people into these other areas. And constricted it too. The other thing i talk about is the way the illinois central tracks ran on a trestle out in the lake which at that point the lakeshore came right up to Michigan Avenue, block to the best view in the city. Fire debris was pushed into this area and thats the beginning of the fill that became later grant park which is basically 20th century creation. Since the beginning its strange there hasnt been a definitive book written about this up until now. Given the Human Interest in this, the overwhelming tragedies of it and then the rebuilding and coming out of it, why has it not been the subject of any number of definitive studies. Its been the subject of any number of studies. Theory these instant histories that appear within weeks 500 pages long things like we are used to do now it ab9 11 or whatever else that were out but there almost all anecdotal no documentation and they stop with the fire basically. There are other things including some stuff not more analytical that talk about what the fire meant but in my study of that kinds of description of the fire takes two paragraphs. Theres been a lot of collections of the firstperson accounts and anecdotal stuff with no documentation. Some shorter things of various content to try to figure out but i honestly cant explain it but what this tries to do is tell the story of both the fire itself and what chicago was like in 1971 and then the rebuilding and then also the last chapter abalso while it tries to be this fluid and lively and engrossing narrative history and doesnt have numbered footnotes but it has a aeverything thats in the book is documented in the back, tells you where and what its from. The writing is a wonderful these stories are wonderful. He could talk for another two hours about it. I do not want to give away the story because i want people to actually buy this book and to read it. And im going to turn you over to the audience now. There are some questions. And lets see if i could bring these up. The first one, i note that fire was the same evening were there other communitys closer to chicago affected by the fire that evening . Speech of theres another serious fire in michigan that evening i would be astonished if theyre not lots and lots of other fires. Within the first few days of october, the days of october at that point were days like today were the temperatures reached 80 degrees and give the strong wind from the southwest there were a few dozen fires they were small they were put out the fact that the Fire Departments weekend, it was delayed in getting there, the wind was blowing. This one just took off in a way it was absolutely remarkable. But those two other fires, and michigan on the other side of the lake and also lumber country which was an amazingly large fire. Subject i dont think he said exactly how and people died in the chicago fire. Estimates varied from the low hundreds to the mid hundreds. In this heat it was much hotter than a crematorium. Bodies just disintegrated. Especially if they were caught in rubble or Something Like tha that. As we said the one good thing is that they saw it coming as it were. There was time and if you the ability to run. Host you mentioned the aid, theres a question here pal the aide was handled in the aftermath. I think the immediate needs of people, food, shelter and that sort of thing and then going forward. Guest a lot of people slept out on the prairie. Remember chicago at that point extended only to the pulaski on the west were pershing road, 39th street to the south. Even at the fringes struggled with open prairie. Another people went there. So much of the cemetery was the southern end of lincoln park is now. In a number went along the lakefront mr out all night and south of the main branch or north of the main branch along the lakefront there. But fairly quickly the supply started coming in. Monday while the city was still burning a temporary headquarters they could find each other and the mayor but by later in the week this elite group a lot of them left were left to burn can be assist dormitories put a lot of churches opened up and gave out food in them. They run after the city up with posters they put on the side of the building where to go for this, where to go for that. But it was a tremendously difficult time. If you had any means you try to make it to a railroad station, either to a friend outside the burn district or to a railroad station and take a train some where, some people did. But it is a very good question. There is no safety net in any way we know it now. Basically contributions from people all over to help these people out. Another thing that was done was people were giving Free Railroad passes to go anywhere. The estimated 30,000 people left chicago. They talk but the trains being so full the men and boys writing on top of the passenger car. Meanwhile cars are going the other with food, supplies, blankets and all kinds of other things. Pretty quickly chicago realized hey we need these people. And stop giving free passage out too. I good number of the people did come back. Civic theres a question about the weather. You mentioned that the temperature and the wind. But this has been going on through the summer. No rain but the fourth of july about a halfinch. And then in early october the Indian Summer of dried as, wind off the prairie off the southwest, 80 degrees by the afternoon. And then the city was made out of wood, wood sidewalks, wood fences, wood streets. And thousands of these basically shacks. Although ironically when the wind is blowing north and east. Thou said not burn the barn and the animals and it did burn. Not their house. Those interesting question. Before the atomic bombing of japan, the u. S. Air force use fosters to destroy part of the 67 cities. They studied the chicago fire with the most effective way to build the cities to the ground. Aware that . No i do not. This a short answer. One of the things done during the fire and theres great dispute over how successful it was when using fire to fight fire. That is setting off exploding gunpowder, dynamite was not yet available to create a break. This disputes over whether this was successful or not. I dont know that i would imagine plenty of unfortunate examples the burning of San Francisco distributed the fires there. I just dont know. You talk about on the ground reports that are coming too, who were the reporters who covered the story . How did they cover it . First of all chicago is again a news nexus. There were correspondents of all kinds of papers there for other places. Again its the inland Business Capital of mercantile and an industrial center. In one of the busiest so far from any ocean in the country at this time. Said the reporters were already there. Also what happens in a case like this as soon as the first, reporters jumped on trains and sketch artists and photographers went there. That is the story. You go or the story is. In st. Louis or wherever else but even in new york the tribute to john hey lincoln secretary during the war the future secretary of state then working for them on a train sentiment to chicago to cover this. And then they were all theres a dozen dailies on all these papers are people trying to write the stories will the buildings are burning down. Theyre still writing them and getting them out. What is possible Western Union , the telegraph center the center of town burned down. The one just outside the burn district state open. They would get the news2 these in southtown than they would go to new york or wherever and then to london, paris, around the world. The question what your main sources of documentation . What i wanted to do is focus as much as i could on contemporary sources the core ones are the eyewitness accounts in which there are many and in various places a lot of them the Chicago History Museum which is a stressor house with a major depository of artifacts. The other, all of these newspapers things published right at the time, the other are things like these broadsides i told you about. The pope in various places. All kinds of other things it is the event of the day of Popular Cultures two latches onto it. What is Popular Culture this time . Popular songs. All of a sudden theyre all of the songs about the fire. The major topic to the fire was on a sunday night. The major topic in every church was a sermon on the fire. What does this mean . It is literally everywhere. Newspaper offices pull up multiple editions in a day. Also in their offices they posted the latest bulletins received by telegraph outside their offices. And its people rushing to the offices of the new york newspapers to read the latest news from chicago. There are, as i said instant history. There are reports of different kinds, there are speeches of different kinds. There are the drawings made on the scene. There are literally thousands, no autographs of the fire but post fire photographs. Many are in the book. The Virtual Reality sensation of the times, stereo graphs these things you put in a special viewer and you can see things in 3d. Including the lighter building before the fire and then they accompany and ruins and things like that. Stuart you mentioned there were not photographs of the actual fire. There is a wellestablished tradition upcoming out of the war of lithographs and engravings that were done pretty much at the time. And they were ordinarily accurate. What appeared in the mid century art and the forerunner things like time now. Harpers weekly and Frank Leslies and they had sketch artists on the scene who would relay stuff. And again they would try to get on a fast train. Is that then a week or so. Took 30 hours in 1871 for train to go from chicago to new york. The life of mother jones changed because of the chicago fire. She had a dressmaking business. Then she becomes one of the most prominent organizers in her era. The life of all kind of people changed in remarkable ways in the fire and because of the fir fire. Currently because of the fire and the depression. Rudy sullivan came to chicago. A number of other architects came in a sense this was a place there would be work. All kinds of people read income so we can find remarkable position for all of these thing things. Screw in the is not really a question but this person writes the Standard Club has an edgar muller merrill that depicts the great chicago fire. Sue back the indo is really interesting pretty Standard Club head had a new, what you want to call, headquarters, clubhouse whatever you want to call it. Like 13th and state not where it was now. That was outside just south of the part of the city that burned. They sort of gave it over the government agency. For some to get going they had to find quarters so they found places that were not burned in the west division. Also southward some and houses the post office set up in a church which is the south. Its worse sunday school was a sorting room. Fuel lighter and Company Bought up at least rented and took over a streetcar railway horse barn. Its open for business fairly soon think that was the end of the questions gave you the opportunities are in the word in sort of summarizing why you got into this. And what you are going to do next. Let me breathe a little bit here. [laughter] that is always the question. And basically its what people like me do. Becomes my hobby and the sources are still there. If i was really interested in the 19th century, i went to college and graduate school in new england. For like a likely up boston at late 1969. To understand chicago you understand organization. Into this thing like fires, both through reveal and change things in important ways. In some ways chicago and i try to talk about this are analogs to each other. Chicago grew like this wildfire out on the prairie. Partly because of the taste was so fire prone. And it just got absorbed into not entire justification the mythology of going to have the biggest fire. And but the fire becomes is not some terrible setback. But it opportunity to prove that nothing can stop us. And the thing is, it was true. And there was a lot more tension, turmoil, conflict, difficulty. Was it difficulty every book said, phoenix like, after the ashes there is a fire. In the fire is celebrated at the columbian exposition in 1893. Completely rebuilt chicago. Now the second biggest city in the united states. Possibly going to pass new york. Its fire is chicago day where they have parades and everything else. And to celebrate the fires what else . Fireworks. And it becomes like a second birth. A rebirth. A star in the flag of the city. When that was made in the early 20th century, an icon of the city is made at this time kind of a classical maiden and a toga with a crown on their head and a phoenix nesting in her hair about the take flight. And it was i will across the bottom. Its a sense that this is a city that nothing can stop. Mrs. Oleary goes from this villain to this kind of folk hero. And in some ways did us a favor. Its just as condescending and misogynist as ever. She is a folk hero. You talk about in these celebrations the winning float in the Rose Bowl Parade of 1960 of which the guest of honor was Richard Nixon then Vice President about to run for president. The winning float was a float of mrs. Olearys cow with smoke coming out. So spout the hundredth anniversary, Richard J Daley oversaw a dinner 4000 people at the Conrad Hilton hotel where they served roast beef. And played fire music. It became part of the story. And part of the border tower that is still there. And the city that could not be defeated. Stronger than fire. It has been a great pleasure to talk with you. This book, i think people we just barely scratch the surface. This is a great read. What could be more appealing story to dig into and bring it to life. As a challenge and im great you think i did. Thank you for being with us this evening for a i cannot thank you enough to talk to me and the bookstore two. Independent bookstores. Thank you. Well turn it back to you. Will john, thank you so much as always for being our fearless questioner through this. Thank you doctor karl smith for joining us and talk but this wonderful new book. Thank you to to her audience was joined us tonight. We hope that you will have a great night. And a flameless, fire last nigh night. No fires in celebration of the fire tonight. We will hope to see you at another event here at the bookstore soon. Thanks so much and have a great evening. So the cutter weekly Author Interview program, after words, reason magazine matt welch interviewed joe pollock about his book on the upcoming president ial election, read november. In this portion of the programs to public makes a case that democrats have moved further to the left. For the left the goal was never to produce a better result. Most importantly bright sentiment sprayed theres people in the party to openly proclaiming these radical sentiments. When a brock obama said he would do fundamentally transform america, he said in late october 2008 produce five days ago before the election. It was unsafe throwaway line. Joe biden is running on that pretty saying that openly was a fundamentally transform america. They talk about systemic racism. Hes condemning the societies running to leave and hes doing so openly. You can see we made the same complaints before. I think saturday the left is only become firmer and its conviction that only radical transformation is appropriate for the country. Its where bill clinton triangulated and is moved back to the center to win elections. He won in 96 by moving to the center. In that Leadership Council that move the party and a more pro market direction. So that democrats were offering americans a better run free markets. A better run system. That was a waiting author. It probably could have continued without the impeachment and the Monica Lewinsky scandal which made her harder for al gore to win after bill clinton. Think the democrats were in control now took the opposite lesson. They were dissatisfied with wealth that a Child Welfare reform for example. They are dissatisfied new thing back to the center. They wanted the opportunity to try out the policies per theyre not going to be denied until they do it democrats headed in the 80s which was consider a series of distant feet. I think democrats could win this november. The pole certainly say that part if they do they will put in place radical policies and not to shift in policy. But the question of the filibuster adding huge states. Puerto Rico Washington d. C. You will have new democratic senators. Theyre not going to have republican centers prince is also impossible to win republicans in the senate. Were looking at a change in system itself even before we get the policy. This is a flight 93 election and a much bigger way. Theres a series of elections until democrats decide theyre not going to leave the country. What works for the countries that worked in the past. There are some democrats who know it. Those in control are not on the same page. To watch the rest of this Program Visit our website booktv. Org and click on the after words tap to find all previous episodes. Again, hello everyone. Welcome. My name is haner im the owner of loyalty bookstores in washington d. C. And silver spring, maryland. I am so excited and honored tonight to be hosting an event reclaiming her time. The power of it maxine waters