It is wonderful to be with you again, our 27th program in this america at a crossroads serious. Im honored to present not one but two extraordinary american heroes, Lieutenant Colonel alexander vindman, historian and journalist, max. Our conversation about the price paid by a military man in the era of trump. Our program tonight is recorded by cspan, who we welcome to our zoom room. This was created as a tuesday night for democracy and justice and community kids. Started after President Trumps first muslim man we found to be a. In violation of our understanding of american democracy to our jewish values. Established by david for decades ago, a vehicle to fight for civil discord and protection of our democratic ideals. Its a Great Partnership thats been able to bring 27 outstanding programs. We are all volunteering our time and appreciate our audience support in expressing of appreciation. Kelly, rabbi and david, the Leadership Team of united for democracy thank you to our many wonderful cosponsors, israel of hollywood, center for justice and Holocaust Museum l. A. A reminder next week, obama advisor, i standing david at her later time wednesday 5 00 p. M. November 2, 5 00 p. M. To 7 00 p. M. , an Amazing Program six brilliant panelists. We will have three separate days to understand whats happening in the election. Want to conclude my welcoming remarks for the comments from our guest tonight. We no doubt, many others in this town hall tonight spend our early lives fighting for the soviet union. Throughout the 1960s and 70 70s, is a National Leader in the latter half of the 70s, i led las efforts. In addition to our political advocacy we traveled to the soviet union and bring back the stories in the movement. It gives us these incredible man born in the soviet union and families will able to emigrate in this movement. We are so grateful to have you here tonight. Please welcome, community advocates, david, a great leader and great partner and a great friend. Thank you. Behalf of the unit, id like to welcome you all once again to the virtual town hall, nearly 5500 registered. Our audience is not bridging from last night the program to chandler, arizona, and mexico vancouver to hawaii. Really, theres a desire for an analysis honest discussion and it is worldwide. Tonight, your offering world class analyst and then some. Special guests stanza todays americans hero. Hes one of the few individuals in the National Exhibiting courage and wrongdoing. They hit when confronted by trumps bullying in his though they had little to lose. They bravely spoke up when witnessing wrongdoing, knowing full well his career was jeopardized. He took a stand when others did nothing though they knew. The consequences of their in action for our nation. Youre about to hear from a man who did the right thing at the right time and for all the right reasons. He made his third appearance in our series, a respected historian, bestselling author and Foreign Policy analyst. Hes one of the worlds leading authorities. The senior fellow relations, calmness for Washington Post and analyst for cnn. Fred and guest speaker, alex vindman to discuss the era of trump. Thank you i echo everything you said about him being a hero. Alex was born in 1975 in ukrai ukraine, he and his family came here in 1979 and grew up in new york city. He subsequently served in a variety of ways. He was deployed to iraq and in 2004 he earned a purple heart. Then in 2008, he moved from infantry to become an officer specializing in former soviet union and eastern europe. He spent time there and got a ma from harvard and he was an assistant army in moscow in 201. Then i was a political military advisor on the chairman of the joint chiefs and in 2018, he was assigned to the National Security council Eastern EuropeanRussian Affairs but of course, this is where he achieved worldwide fame. It was almost a year ago on november 19 last year alex testified before the senate, before the House Intelligence Committee about what transpired a phone call between President Trump and president zelensky of ukraine. As alex testified when he first heard that, is listening and that it was deeply troubling what was happening. He reported to his chain of command and when he came to testify, he testified truthfully and honestly but a great personal risk to himself and my first question to you, did you have any idea what would happen when you first referred your concerns about this up the chain of command . Did you hesitate . You must have realized we were going against the most powerful men in the country, commanderinchief. He be the unhappy about your testimony, theres a lot of military officers who would choose to stay out of the line of fire but you advanced to the end of the gun. Was it a hard decision for you . Thank you for being part of this discussion and i am privileged to have you as my interviewer thank you for hosting me, a unique opportunity to join this group, its an opportunity to share a little bit about what transpired. The answer, id say i have little to no concern in my initial report to the proper authorities in the National Security council, you have to understand from my perspective, ive been watching this slow moving car crash for several months. It became clear there was oddities as early as march when the former mayor of new york city started to advance a narrative about ukrainian interference and corruption on the part of the exceptional ambassador and that continued to devolve over the subsequent months all the way through president zelensky and his election the jury, inauguration i attended in that timeframe, all the way through and started to come to a head early june, two weeks before when the National Security advisor came through and offered this quid pro quo transaction and a lot of people dont necessarily number, it was obviously troubling in this case, i tried to dissociate may be because of my military training in high regard to the presidency, trying to dissociate the fact that the president is personally involved but it was apparent in the july 25 so nobody is above the law in the u. S. I shared my concerns in the hope that the proper authorities could write the ship and get us back on course and ultimately, with regards to their testimonies, i would say i obviously knew the consequences, helping i wouldnt be a victim of retaliation but its going to be highly problematic, potentially ending my career but what were my options, really . Could have, i guess reversed course somehow and basically went back on my initial concer concerns, that was not a viable option for me. As a military officer, i could have not appeared before a branch of government, none of these are really Viable Options and i never really considered, unless the president gave me a direct order in which it would have to play on the court, i never considered not testifying. That is not the country i live in as far as im concerned. The most memorable part of your Opening Statement is where you address your father and his concerns about what you are doing, talking to elective professionals, it is proof you made the right decision to come here, the United States of america in search of a better life for our family, do not worry, i will be fine for telling the truth. You still feel that way . You have suffered real retaliation, hed been fired, he had to retire early from the army as Lieutenant Colonel, you want promoted to colonel as you deserved to be, your brother was fired along with you, your life talked about, do you still feel you are fine and the experience was a vindication of the american system . In a lot of ways, the failure of congress as a whole to enforce accountability and pursue justice, that wasnt my role. My role was relatively straightforward, i was called to testify based on what i observed. Going in to the closed door in public testimony, there is little doubt i would face retaliation. At that time, i hadnt face retaliation were ostracized by the Political Leadership and excluded from certain activities having proven myself as either disloyal or politically unreliable to the president , which in the military, we dont swear an oath to the president , is where goes to the constitution. I knew what i was getting into and every word in my statement was very carefully reviewed, i wish i had rehearsed it, i meant to say not collected professional, i meant to say elected official but i couldnt get it out right but i knew what i was saying the wrong word but go ahead. Is alluding to the fact that we live in a very different country and where we came from. The soviet union, the stakes were much higher. Ultimately, in the long run, i would be fine. I had sections for the future, i ultimately left due to campaign retaliation intimidation but i was referring to the fact that i would be okay long term, my dad came here at the age of 47 with 750, three young sons and a motherinlaw and she managed to be fine with a much harder road ahead. How does it feel to have been rocketed so quickly to so much fame and notoriety . To be watching for testimony, which was so truthful, to see the way you are vilified by so many republicans from having republican members of Congress Questioning your loyalty to america which is sickening for somebody like you whos armed a purple heart for our country, having kayleigh mcenany, the White House Press secretary calling you junior employee, having trump himself, the president of the u. S. Attack y you. But also, when he fired you, sending out this tweet about how you are supposed to give around his report from your superior, wouldnt adhere the chain of command, all of these lies which the kind of self we are used to being from internet trolls but this is the president of the United States the person who at that time, was still your commander in chief, it must have been a surreal experience, i cant imagine what that was like. Did you feel personally did you feel your life and your familys life was at stake . I just cant imagine what that was like. I will tell you, i have been through tougher situations, ive deployed to combat in the three years in moscow, more highstakes there. Geopolitical gains are played and you have an entire apparatus and my wife and i had been through our own challenges, she spoke about this recently in regards to a bigger family so in the big scheme of things, i tend to not focus on the bad things. The president of the United States, i separate the office from the person i hate referring to him as President Trump, he does not deserve that title in my mind. Yes, he won an election but hes proven, you have to earn respect and hes done the exact opposite so i have little regard for him or the officials he put in high office because they are unqualified and often times incompetent. In a lot of ways, i take it as a badge of honor when i get this by these folks with their claims about me and my character because i have little regard for them. The people i do hold high regard for, chairman dunker, in his last day in uniform, he basically put out, he put some information out for cnn, attesting to my qualities. That means so much more to me and what comes out of the president s mouth his tweet for his proxies. Take today, we see that he and his team are spreading disinformation, lying and undermining almost everything in the election, undermining the foundation of our democracy so it doesnt really bother me. With regards to the threats, maybe ill say my daughter says my wife is in charge of safety, i am in charge of the soapy she pays attention more closely to these things than i do. Like i said, ive lived in challenging places that can generally hold my own but it is quite disconcerting to have hate mail and threats coming to the house, so that was a problem. Prepared at various times, to move on, basic Due Diligence for safety but we try to live our life as much as we could normally in a stressful situation. A disgrace you have to endure because you testified truthfully, what to think about people like john bolton who refused to testify but could have added to the case . What you think about the republican members of congress who have the evidence and then choose to disregard it even though the evidence was overwhelming that trump was guilty of the high crimes and misdemeanors of which he was accused . What i find interesting and a little i guess, i take solace in the fact that these people have to live with their decision. I can speak about myself and why i chose to do my duty, i knew what the right thing to do was, i knew i would have to live my myself if i didnt do the right thing. Id have to look my daughter in her eyes when shes older and understands what is going on and i could have made a difference now is not going to his honor our family. These folks who failed to do that will have to live with the consequences of their actions. Some might not even feel bad about it. Some of these folks are very selfserving looking to profit and i guess they will be fine, even if they are vilified by the public but there will probably be enough people who will suffer consequences as a result of their response about this. Well see that in the upcoming election in a couple weeks, a number of people will lose their office and the rest of them shared responsibility, basically they will have that around there will be a sign around them the rest of their careers. I would just that. You mentioned the report use receipt, but i make curious in general, how much support did you receive from the army, from secretary defense, did you feel the building, as people call the pentagon, the building behind you that youve been vilified and ostracized by the president of the United States . What did they leave a man on the battlefield. There is some nuance in this question, bottom line is no. I never felt like i had any support for backing but the question is, who is to blame . Officials and the public defen defense, chairman of the joint chiefs, as leaders, they have responsibly but it goes back to the president and government for the past four years or so. Our institutions that have kept us as strong as we have been, have been under attack, it probably started with the department of justice, intel community, state department and frankly, because of me that they were drawn in and these officials have to make a choice between catering to their fears, succumbing to concerns over what the president might do in support of me or kept quiet and ultimately, they decided to preserve their own divisions, whether its an office, which is probably what they have in mind, they will be in a position to stamp the most egregious activities of the president but i think theres equal part at least, that is individuals looking to secure their own petition and did not want to risk the vindictive backlash from President Trump and therefore, i was part of the sacrifice in their mind that think it is worth mentioning that it is a slippery slope with this president and if you dont stand your ground, the president is likely to pursue the agenda more aggressively and when secretary esper chairman to back him as he pushed Peaceful Protesters for what amounted to a political at if they stood their ground, maybe that may not have happened. Traditionally, the military is a very Republican Group and im guessing probably are republican as well . I would say you know, i would describe it as the military tend to run more conservative. There is large continuing coming in, the representative of where they originate from. In that regard, it tends to run more conservative. Politics dont end up playing a significant role, i have no idea what the political affiliation of my peers, subordinates seniors, what the political affiliation was and im guessing it didnt know of my own. I grew up in new york city semia democrat at the age of 18. I was not an active participant in politics, i took the concept of military very, very seriously and if the president had me not politicized, i would have stayed but the president did attack me and gave me a voice and i had seen behind the curtain and i see this as part of my duty, basically speaking up and attesting to the Foreign Policy failures, personal failures of the president and if i have any role if i could have any impact on the upcoming elections, i will do that and that is way outside my comfort zone, i am not interested in a lot of engagements but ive had to comfortable starting in december, my family telling the stories, the American Public can see what the costs are for People Public servants and in the indication that the next four years would be better is misplaced, if anything, it will be significantly worse because there is not the guardrail of another election and i think people should know that when they go vote. What is your view of people for folks like mattis or john kelly or mcmaster and others who clearly, by President Trumps misconduct, they are not out here speaking up or campaigning against trump are trying to alert the American People to the danger. These are folks with a lot less to lose than you do. Nothing can possibly happen to them, they dont have careers pursue anymore and yet, they are choosing to stay silent. What is your view of that . Maybe i dont have particularly kind of i frankly see this as selfpreservation, militia officers especially senior military officers, their entire career, they think about preserving options. You want as many options as possible for whatever area you engage in. I think they are basically sticking to that notion that they dont want to burn any bridges will come down as democrat or publican monkey dont want to limit their financial opportunities, theyve worked 30 or 40 years in government, this is a time they can improve their family and basically, maybe they have lost sight that they have an opportunity in private versus public. I see my role in Public Service containing. I dont understand why they are not speaking up. They lived these values for decades, they know whats right and wrong is the only things that seems to be justified is again, selfpreservation, self enrichment, frankly, that is the way i see it. Idea of a political military once you hang up your uniform, youre still a leader have an ability to make an impact, you shouldnt take down the responsibly. I want to turn to what could be the 64 billiondollar question, which people have been asking for a long time and i still have not heard a straight answer. What is it trump in russia particularly trump and putin dan coats was quoted saying he thinks he has something on trump. How do you explain the fact that trump attacks pretty much everybody except Vladimir Putin . That is the 64 billion question. I certainly have heard people speculate about the compromising material that Vladimir Putin might have on him but i take an analytical approach and have determined he doesnt need compromise. He has a willing participant in the form of trump is a fan boy. He admires him and has admired him for a long time. Admires him because of who putin is the power he wields without kind of check. In a lot of ways, trump would like to be the same kind of bigger, is just not as confident doesnt have the wherewithal to do that. What putin has, hes a useful idiot and a fellow traveler as i have described in an article, the useful idiot is frankly, he doesnt know putin interests, he is know that basically in carrying putins water, hes undermining the credibility and the trust and effectiveness of the intelligence committee, he took the word of putin over the consensus view of his Intelligence Community and frankly, is a useful idiot and taking divisive issues and using them to drive larger wedges and a fellow traveler, i guess only in the, he wants to be an authoritarian leader and hell do everything he can in the next four years. That is his view how power should be healed. It is not necessarily useful. Also with somebody like trump who is so erratic and impulsive, it doesnt make a lot of sense for russians to try to use leverage in that way because who knows what he can say, it can pull up in that space if the president were to say yes, accidentally say that. It doesnt make sense for them to use information like that. What you make about this pseudo scandal that trump and Rudy Giuliani are trying to generate Hunter Bidens emails . To me, it looks like a continuation of the scam you blew the whistle on that they were trying to run last year, trying to get the Ukrainian Government under threat of using u. S. Aid to come up with a compromise on hunter biden and joe biden. Trump got impeached but now he seems to be trying the same thing so you have the New York Post these emails that will not be verified claiming to be the biden. Even if its true, im not sure i see the scandal because fundamentally, theres no evidence that joe biden did anything to help hunter biden in the actions he took against ukraine, thats what the u. S. Government should be done. Nevertheless, you have trump and rudy and the whole gang trying to make this the greatest political scandal in history and of course, the whole time rudy is working with people like the ukrainian lawmaker is been designated the lawmaker so theres so much coming out and they are desperate with so few days left until the election. What is your analysis of his attempt to create a scandal . I think falls on the shoulders of congress failure, especially the senate because if the president was centered for this, he probably wouldnt have said the same thing now, basically fabricating some sort of false narrative of corruption with Vice President biden. I looked at this matter closely, i looked at it starting probably march, april timeframe of 2019, things started to unfold and relatively quickly dismissed it. I kept asking questions to the people, the true subject matter within the Intelligence Community, state department of the country and embassy and theres no real substance. It was pretty clear when burisma and the government reported the servers were hacked and the information was stolen, this was many months, you be the beginning of this year, and of last year, is pretty clear with how the information would be used. All the experts were like clearly is something that will be rolled out in the campaign but the sad thing is, if this was the october surprise, to help get President Trumps past the goal line, i dont think anybody cares. Nobodys paying attention to that. [laughter] the average american. The average american who doesnt watch fox news. When people go, theres a hardcores constituency who will be there matter what that will be the electric its going to get him at second term. The vast majority is going to bring in a new administration is the one is going to understand, realize that 20000 americans have died because of the president s mismanagement of the pandemic and his mismanagement, the consequences of the pandemic and economic catastrophe and people feel it. I went to visit rachels grandmother, 94yearold in Middle America and even there, people are Wearing Masks and feeling the effects of the coronavirus. It did not magically go away like the president resorted to. The distractions of this fish is fabricated narrative of this computer, which theres no clear connection to hunter biden, i think its already been said that it looks like its likely connected and you have radcliffe who experienced it firsthand, a political figure acting not as protecting the u. S. But caring the president s water, basical basically, propagating, perpetuating this narrative. Fundamentally, the people who are going to Pay Attention to the people this will be meaningful to, would not be swayed off voting for President Trump so they lockedin that 35 of the population for Trump Supporters but it wont be enough. I want to reiterate one more time, this is not anything credible, these are intimate accusations against hunter bid biden, who i think major laughs and error and judgment, basically profiting off his fathers condition and enriching himself. Cannot realize the potential harm it could do to the Vice President it is a terrible lapse in judgment but i guess from Vice President biden and hunter biden to work out, it seems like a wonderful, loving father and im sure they will get past that but that is really all there is to that. One more questions and then the audience. My question is, what you think is the rushing game plan for the selection . We just had a report in the New York Times today, page nine, sources on the u. S. Intelligence community seeing the russians are hacking into election infrastructure at the state and local level. Of course yesterday we had radcliffe who is a political hack will basically pointing the finger to iran for particular information operation, trying to suggest iran and china are the real threats and they are supposedly backing biden but clearly the Intelligence Community is screaming as loud as i can, russia is the real threat and they will be like trump but how far do you think they will go . His time running out with the election so close . I think russia will find itself in a difficult situation and i think they are all in on the strategy. Two primary objective care, the first primary objective is help President Trump reelected because hes had so much russian interests. Undermining u. S. Alliances, nato and undermining the credibility of liberal democratic era, it is kind of this alternative authoritarian vision of how the rules should look at other russian and chinese kind of shared so that is the first thing. A lot of the russians want them but the chinese do not. They probably not be helping trump who they think is not that hes been hard but hes been very unstable and unpredictable and its hard to go in a particular direction. They believe hes been instrumental in american decline. There probably on opposite sides of the issue here because predictability is catastrophic is calculation and they will need that. Back to russia, the second thing they are looking for is just cast out on Credible Elections and the president has done far more damage than the russians, the russians are kind of some side of increment notion, some sort of supporting this notion that u. S. Elections have been interfered with and undermining a different outcome especially if it is a blowout against trump, it will be hard to do that. It might give the president enough room to challenge the courts so there is nothing to create that kind of space. I also think in general, the russians are keen on interviewing in u. S. Elections and undermining the credibility in our democracy and how our democracy functions. It is kind of a part b to the objective. There are probably other things they are keen on doing, i can tell you from a technical standpoint, it is not easy, they have to be the u. S. Government has invested pretty heavily in terms of hardening elections in spite of the fact that the president has denied the fact that there is election interference. Theyve been hardening elections and ensuring that they are executed as intended by u. S. Officials. So what you potentially have is enough data to cast out, not of to create real harm, 56, 50 different ways of running elections and they have to be really precise, targeting districts that might be particular meaningful but i dont know about give too much credit in that regard. You have macro objectives they are operating on. s question flows naturally about what youre talking about, what should be the policy in your motion for next administration . I think a lot of people have spent a lot of time considering this, certainly the has to be a reckoning in regards to election interference the reckoning to take many different forms, this administration has been relatively consistent at least early on, not so much recently but the first couple of years consistent for many functions but russia influence and aggression in l. A. Interest. I think some of those things will continue but theyve proven to not be an elected not enough, the russians have been more aggressive than u. S. Soldiers unprecedented attacks against u. S. Directly. Things they would not have considered in the past. You think the intelligent is . I think it is enough, actually, i think it is probably pretty solid. The reason i can say that is even before this, its been wide reporting on this, the russians have been rendered significant on that. The big leap is the fact that they are willing to attack u. S. Interest and not only the high risk associated with the major response, that they can do that but to answer the question, i think we will have to look at other tools and if the russians are so keen and interested in internal interference in Domestic Affairs in the u. S. And europe, they should be prepared for a similar response, there are claims promoted by the u. S. West, they are completely false, we dont really do that. We dont do that. We might need to be prepared if they want to that. Marvin s couple of more personal questions that i find interesting, did you encounter antisemitism during your career in the military . It seems trump has considerable support in the u. S. , who who dont support trump. Why is that . Really while the second question. I think the russians have theres a natural propensity i think for older communities to be very conservative anything that is remotely socialism or can be claimed as such going to get a Strong Negative response but doesnt explain the entirety of why russian immigrants did. Bottom line, russians again, many people may not know in the public space the russians have been saudi leveraging movement communities, not just with israel or anyplace you can find and bombarding them with this disinformation but its an easy and natural purpose for a community that believes in the hazard of flipping into socialism or communism. Just like your family, my family, at least for a while before i became a target, they were supportive of President Trump. That is no longer the case and i think it is something that maybe it requires some leadership, maybe for folks like you and me and others have to do that kind of work and reach out to these communities and have those types of conversations those are conversations that might need to be had to shed light on this issue. Its interesting despite the fact that this community is really well first the art of propaganda, living in, they still kind of take spoonfuls of it. Parts of the country where there is shows population those two types are pretty much the only way they can understand judaism i think i have been the target of racism or bias not that i am aware of only the general sense that representative of the country you have a pretty conservative pedestal folks maybe they will look more favorably on folks that looks similar to that explicit bias board but implicit the army and the military with that kind of stuff. Your time i encountered anti semitism is the most anti somatic tweets to come out of the woodwork so what do you think trump and putin talked about when there were no no takers what you think they were saying to each other . I know the translator pretty well i think she would have tolerated anything that wasnt blatant but it is a problem in the fact that more than likely when he feels like he is suffering from the media or a victim. So putin is salivating to be attacked. So from the trump side. Looking for every opportunity to advance the agenda and then beginning in helsinki and that experience and then not to read too far into that. And the president not acting like the adult older man or leader to be substantive because with some of these things they were relatively normal issues. But what i havent addressed i operate in a formal existing peer credit channel that is in the channel record and people come to understand they can work around them to achieve basically what they want. That 20 for july phone call and then to be chief of staff even though john bolton and said i think this is a good idea but you have these alternative the way things are supposed to work. With all of the doubledealing word is out there because through the normal process and it will get worse. We have a number of that one questions we personally so what is your brother doing now are you weathering your retirement . Are you okay . Joe biden lance could he bring you back to provide to the nsc or a civilian your own personal future. For all of the support frankly this discussion implies because that enormous amount of support and i am grateful the people who jean is doing okay for the time being with the army or department of defense potentially facing significant headwinds. And then to expect those results from i have a feeling the department of defense is holding off on submitting this list until after the election at which point were to lash out for these issues to deal with. Has been the target of retaliation with the National Security council to reach out to harm his career. Just to be malicious to cover up some wrongdoing in the house is looking into whistleblower retaliation and ethical violations and with regard to my future plans i am okay. I am pursuing a doctorate at john hopkins and the same things i was basically working on it now for public consumption and the questions that are most meaningful, how do we deal with the pressure that is aggressive or china that is aggressive . Of the highly competitive 21st century geopolitical environment. I made a commitment to the this program and that would be a couple years. But if called to serve, i will have to consider that because i continue to think my future service. We have a couple of minutes left. If you want to say anything in closing before we sign off. I think we covered a lot of train. David and janice thank you for providing this opportunity to take care of some news and maybe again to encourage them to grow and vote in with that. Future and President Trump is reelected and has four more years as vocal as i am not comfortable. If anybody so my wife speech she is a amazing, phenomenal. I am not but i will not to but i feel that i have no choice it would be hard to live with and to protect the country. I think i speak for everybody on this program and an admiration for your courage and heroism to speaking out with the outrage to serve this country from foreign enemies and the president and his henchmen in the white house that is a disgrace you have to go through but then to continue to serve the country even though you are no longer in uniform thank you for that fascinating for those for