Bookstores. Thank you for watching. And some pretty compelling conversations into the fall probably no more life events through 2021 we went to be mail about that and be safe and smart and conversations with authors we have an event coming up in october and all that matthew mcconnaughhay. You can follow all of our events on magic city books. Com. Tonight i am thrilled to have a conversation with michael denzil smith in a conversation that seems it was written for the moment we are living in although they are written before they are published in printed but sometimes to what is going on. And this is one of my favorite books and the book that can understand the pandemic debts americas response. In the world were living in in this very moment thank you for writing the book. That is a mere for us to see who we are what we are doing. s we held a great pleasure of these conversations i am always so proud to hand that off to another wonderful writer to be in conversation and has an awardwinning book will be posting links to sabrina and karina. And it has a list of accomplishments but its a killer book of stories you will not soon forget. Hopefully im not spoiling this but i think theres a novel on the way in 2021. If you have questions and we will get to those throughout the conversation if we have the stakes if you would like more copies and for whatever the reason is. And then you can get a copy of sabrina and karina so now i will turn it over and say thank you for joining us we appreciate you giving us the time. Thank you jeff. Hi michael its great to see you virtually like this. Going for the book seriously reading the way when i was a teenager with a secret treasure trove of information i was printing off quotes from you and i ran out of think one inc. It was so much. So the book is a triumph. And experience with these wide ranging topics as part of the american story. The issues range from poverty and modern policing and then me to movement and the centralized ideas how we as a nation and to see ourselves. So the first question is what is the process to Work Together and what is the story of america who are trying to tell . Thank you first of all to jeff and magic city books and you were participating it everybody watching and tuning in. So the book came together. Is not the book i intended to write after my first one. Lynn was very happy with it and publish the book. And then i turned 30 that you will be for the election of 2016 go two days before it was the existential crisis of turning 30 i wasnt planning on. Its not that big of a deal its just a number. Is just an age. My waist size want to ensure that this is different. [laughter] so suddenly them in this position what do i want my life to look like a relatively young black man in america who doesnt have a life after the age of 30. So i have to think long term instead of the future but then two days after the election maybe theres not a future. But still sitting in between the two feelings that i want now to plan for my own personal future but the world seems to be at this impasse toward our extension in a relatively short time or working on the problems that we have. This book try to find the place in which we could build the next world. The intervention that i was trying to make sure that i was feeling there is a narrative way tell ourselves about being american that prevents us from seeing that in any way. With that collective toward the eradication. I start on a different book and scrapped that. And with 13 different essays and the subject matters and so everything collapsed these broad themes. And there are ways of combining these things and also at the same time thinking about new york city where i lived and coming to this idealism like all the millions of people to find my success not realizing even as a critic in new york city was just a microcosm of a better idea and theres just more potential but new york city it is poverty right here. Those that go for millions of dollars in police sleeping them off the street myth with donald trump and his family could become a rich family by becoming slumlords. The possibility but also defined in so many ways a the structure of the ideology running for American History and then to try to find a way to find my own place in the story. Looking at American History are not just subject to it the idealism of it that the critique is the idea amount of on around american patriotism for the country with that mix devoted to certain symbols that keep us attached to the idea of america in and of itself but we could overcome everything. And then to capture this moment its me wanting for all of us to say that we committed ourselves to reading to our destruction. And teams the q a feature. Its also fascinating and while you are talking you sharing something strange and common that my birthday is november 9 i turned 30 the day after the election and talking about american story and that the country affected trump to the presidency. And then the first woman president that did not happen and why you chose to open the book with this. Its a defining moment of our most recent history and it is inescapable. I was working on something that was completely divorced from the ideas and the Basketball Court in one of the sites is the barbershop and when i started to read the book those in the barbershop on election day and thats what made me to switch over to writing the book and the safety of those people were describing with liberals and progressives and on the right side of history so i want to pretend i was in a position to say of course donald trump will win. And to say no now we have the first black president and first woman president that seems a natural progression. And then thats why try to get the night because i was on democracy now for election coverage and to come to terms with the fact wellbeing on air look at American History every moment of progress how minuscule and benign theres always a backlash and the entrance on the entrenchment inscribed in the founding always find a way and the summary things like to talk to new goes to the president and the critique of the entire time i live through it with a political figure all the limitations for the presidency it did represent something and was the form of progress before a large section of the country for those who believe america to be the hate that they were losing something and losing a hold of their identity of the power not all donald trump is the last gasp j just look at them on the rope i have to try one last thing is to say thats what it was. And they landed the punch. And we all pay the price for it. And if i was going to examine america and who we say we want to be and breakdown that construction of constitutes the, we had to look at the moment. And then it will keep going. And that brings me to the section of the book talk about modern policing. Those are starting to learn the history of modern policing and what does reform work like that i know that you mentioned the wanton police so talk about that. The First Modern Police force that is a cheap alternative they are fighting for their independence and england doesnt want to let go of control and then they adopt the idea the modern police force so when we say modern police force who can look and see different forms policing and Medieval Times then nights are police essentially. And then the collective taxes and those that is publicly funded and one that is armed and patrolling neighborhoods and estimates in london and then copied in the us postindependence and in the 18 hundreds when they are working in the northern cities ways to do what they were doing in england and that those take my wages and pay low wages for the work i am doing and unsafe conditions. I like it and then they will strike and then would you do with those Police Forces to suppress those uprisings . And then those become part of municipalities. And then you have to recognize the way in which policing as a format that arises in the southern cities the plantation is to catch runaway slaves. That is the history of our we establish policing in the us but it hasnt moved to file format. And then to reinforce a secondclass citizenship what is value it is to protect the property of the land owners and some of that property is people that are enslaved and to reinforce the racial hierarchy. Does the same thing now and police is gender identity and Police Determine what counts as a crime responding to Domestic Violence calls. They take the side because they are reinforcing the ideas that this form of violence is legitimate. And so many trans women those on the street those who are doing survive all sex workers have been arrested for doing that and then thrown into jail. They are doing the work it is reinforcing the very ideas at the core of america is as a citizen with those that are legitimate and worthy of rates. And understanding that, if we understand police that way which i dont think we need to , so much how we understand police is shaped by a tv shows and films with the steering her rowing asked to save the day with these terrible bad guys that are hellbent on our destruction. With the american imagination they are preventing us from all our chaos but then they reinforce and reassure those called on those qualities are maintained. If we think of police that way then what purpose word police serve in a just society . If we are in a position if everyones needs were met . If its on the basis of race or gender or Sexual Identity your class . What would happen if there wasnt that much ownership and it was more Public Ownership would happen if everyone had access to education and health care and clean water . It boggles my mind so these are the people that deserve the sandys that dont but in a just society what role does police serve and it scares people to think of the World Without police what they have been socialized to believe danger is always knocking on my door. Danger zone is out there. When he wasnt president yet mexico sending roles and rapist. This is the police in whatever form they take but they will protect you with the authority of the state to kill with impunity will protect you from this imagine and other. But if that is what you are afraid of the solution will never be police because all they can do is arrest people and for them in jail. You have a society always producing those people and you always so those divisions and putting people in situations and desperation to act in ways for their survival. So police are necessary in the system in order to make someone feel safe but if necessary in the system and while it may be necessary that they have the access to things that make them safe . Reimagining of safety, communit safety, community, what it takes to ensure those behaviors you dont want to see in the world and i actually taken but not all of them are harmful to other people but just means of surviving. In the population is skyrocketing so in the book you talk about the decriminalization of poverty. And then if you cant even take care of herself then it becomes a crime. It made me think there has to be people who grow up thinking that the police are meant to protect and serve but when i grew up i did not feel safe. Was told dont trust them make sure you drive somewhere else if you are out over. You to be assaulted any time. These were always on my mind. So what does it look like to allow that information on the other side of the story to get out . And with that Propaganda Machine that they are to uplift us and protect us . Is a way we can shift the narrative . Is happening a little bit now. Five or six years what is internationally known as the black lives Matter Movement is focusing on policing those that are subject to certain forms of policing that do not allow for the freedom of movement that other people enjoy. And for a long time that was the basic critique. Maybe we should stop killing as many people. And in some instances police do the wrong thing. On the killings of Rihanna Taylor and george floyd but especially him because we saw that the weather was a more radical cry have defined the police and abolish the police that is a starting point on the activist side means the conversation has to be different if you engage in one you have to deal with the fact thousands of people industry are saying and to have an impact in terms of completely shifting the narrative and ive been thinking about this a lot and i write about this in the book and the idea of writing and the impact and with the course of writing a book there is a utility like grave violence to say what am i doing . Has to be a record of people for those who come after because we see this all the time anytime the injustice of the past those that say that is a percent of their time they were acting in no way they did during that time. But there is always a record of people leave those actions to be wrong and the idea to be wrong. And because without it and then the insane woman that thes are unjust so that Propaganda Machine persist with the announcement of the historic settlement in the federal case of Rihanna Taylor and her family in the city of louisville, the monetary compensation on compensation is one thing they also asked for a lot of reforms in the package. And that police are going to be encouraged required in that will be encouraged with two hours of volunteer work every two weeks. And thats ridiculous telling the cops to live in the neighborhood but now they just killed the neighbors. But also that part of the campaign that the police are friendly and trustworthy and someone to their faith in they dont solve the problems that we ask them to do. They dont think is happening its just the construction around behaviors that is undesirable by certain people in power and largely white men and then you send the police after the criminals. Thats their job. Thats all they will ever do. It doesnt matter how much volunteer work is that the mission has been from the beginning. So think about that what i wrote about in the book with that shirley and as a new York State Assembly woman presented a bill in response to Police Violence the police going through training must complete a civilrights course and in the history of the people they are placing about injustice. And i like to think she knew that those people cannot become police. [laughter] once you know exactly the history then you know how violent and oppressive it is obey to think any portion of conscience would not cover it. You like to think that. Want to bring up shirley because i was ignorant and had not heard of. And then to mention a statue so what if they were meaningful to our groups. I love to hear more about her. So for fame and the things especially obama 2008 and then hillary 2016 the first black woman to run for president on the democratic ticket. She was not successful obviously but the first one elected to congress and the first is that people get hung up on as the trailblazer but then made it possible for obama later or Hillary Clinton later and then she is popped up again with discussions of aoc. But to take over the political establishments in the run with their ability to be elected to congress. And come to me the key word on democracy and then to have a Campaign Slogan on influential president. Because she ran the explicitly antiracist and antifeminist Campaign Even though she said im not running a campaign for black people were women and americans but that was politics at the time. And she very famously gives the first speech on the house for before anything happens before she is given the vote its an old vietnam war speech and she hasnt been established. So she works for the expansion food stamps all these anti property measures throughout her career. And be sober a list of the ways. And thinking what she actually stood for and what she worked for in her career, that statue will stand there and what i see on the street right now i want to sleep under the statue of this woman who fought to end poverty. So what meaning are we trying to give to the statue of the family legacy is not willing to fight for her but she is used in this way to bolster certain ideas like trailblazer and all of this stuff. It is another way that we use the historical figures in this american exceptionalism and that america always comes out on top the reason that Shirley Chisholm can do what she is able to do that doesnt tell you why but thats the part where are willing to integrate into the story american considerably for being the first black woman elected to congress but never ask why she had to be first in 1968. And then to celebrate Shirley Chisholm to run for president but not ask why she was only able to get 2 percent of the democratic vote where a word you reject the actual politics and into the american story about the idea that everyone has the potential to overcome all the obstacles is to asking why they are there in the first place. Thats what i love about the book i am a fiction writer so to spend time with the like a relatively short amount of time. The master may have american trying to me write more and more. Everything has such resonance and meaning. And when you get your information there still call a paragraph in front of the chapter cracks always in new york rather than the reality and then to invest and the idea of something more. And those that left outer space. Then is keeping track of them in a notebook. And then keep track of them. The mature reading but i was reading a lot. That everything was directly research. It does feel like theres some sort of cosmic intervention that i am supposed to be reading this right now theres something in here that we are supposed to be pulling from that is clear when i read this thing. And thats exactly what i have been trying to say that something what im trying to do with this chapter exactly that. And then to come back to me and that was very early in the process. Went to say there is no escape. And it is in conversation and the introductory chapter so that fits perfectly with that idea. And then i was in the strand one day. And thats what i was missing limbs during the pandemic as soon as they opened up. I was looking through the new york section is a slim book i picked it up and i added that there is so much here theres so much rich about the book the new york this is something that i need it recaptures the idea and then to be improved on. And then using those as the epigraph these other ways you need to be thinking right now im trying to do and just that citation all practice that i am not alone in this. Is like a solo artist we were in conversation with one another all the time. Knowledge is not produced by a Single Person on their own but it is in conversation with each other and in community with each other. Want to show my work user places to explore. But with White Supremacy a lot of thats hiding the work and the power and there is so many references. And then you are laying out the framework. So talk about the title where that came from. Thats the first thing that came to me because i was sitting on a completely different book and with those elements 1996 and this particular lyric and then to say that as you hear it it is dope but it is also depressing so the longevity can be compared of racism. And that is to say that in that election donald trump is determinant with the permanence of capitalism. So they are baked into the very foundation of the american identity and then also something permanent and the idea of blackness being the marker which everyone else measures success in this country. But just the phrase itself. The purchased with the timeline that we have, look at just in the hurricane in the gulf coast while the entire country deals with the airborne illness as a pandemic to say yes we have generations and generations to deal with this problem. No we dont. We just dont. We are late to the game so work is not just angry white men who wanted to get power back but the things they want to do with that power would accelerate all the problems we are facing with their very existence a sustainability on this plane planet, just lost we thought. [laughter] up against that and that tight timeline to do with this so the stakes are high and they dont get any higher than what they are now. Of all the books ive been reading recently yours matches the picture of the energy like were on the edge to rebuild or maybe it is over pretty soon. So to veer off with the idea of an alternate timeline people are doing more and more doing in the early days of the pandemic my calendar has this that is one of the things i just adore a Story Building to say yes i love it. So what is the role of the imagination to provide a pathway all of this oppression and injustice . What do we envision on envision to moving forward . I Say Something to this effect imagine of where we want to go show us how we get there. What do we want . Our political imagination has been so stifled because we are caught in the fouryear election cycles in which we always choose between the lesser of two evils people can debate that to no end. They say there is a possibility. No. You are choosing between the one that is less bad and that is what we are presented with every single time. And if thats the best that we can do that the american president is our savior on whatever side you fall on and that singular person and figure to rescue us but the best we can do is choose from the Democratic Party or Republican Party if this is what we believe a moment to moment. But if we cannot just say out loud what we actually want and this is what frustrates me with the Democratic Party. They say those of the things that they want but then they say its not possible. Miss you say it out loud and get people on board then obviously it is not. If you write it off in the beginning is not going to be possible. So looking at the alternative timeline imagining a world where surely would have one in the world of 1972 but writing that off immediately there is no place where america is a completely different country i want to imagine what that is like and i can do that by myself but again it comes back to an idea that i believe in democracy we should be doing that togethe together. Its a matter of listening to those things and believing they are possible and we are responsible for one another and for the future for other people. But its hard to imagine when there are millions of people who refuse to even put a piece of cloth over their face either from catching the deadliest airborne illness there is a selfishness to this the individualistic ideology running through so many people that believe we only have to look out for themselves that is a place we are going right now. That it will either and right now to figure out a way to be the world exist as it is there is another world that could be. We have time for one more question. I didnt feel pessimistic soar bummed out with your book i just felt this is cool. I can see people feeling dejected and a little pessimistic. What do you want readers to take from the book . Is at the feeling . I want whatever feeling that you have i want people to sit with it if it makes you feel hopeless start asking yourself why . What is lacking that makes you feel theres no hope for them to come to pass thats where you need to act if you believe there is something wrong here or whatever it issue it is or whatever it is if there is a thought to say thats possible thats a place to be i need to talk to other people about this and get in community with other people. Because that is exactly where we end up all the time the issue is too big for me. Obviously is too big for one person i want people to sit with whatever feeling so why do i feel that way . And how can we be in community with one another so we dont feel that way anymore . I love that. Thank you so much. The book is called stakes is high