Its gripping. I had to keep reminding myself that its happened just in the last year i think a lot of us 2020 feels like its been a decadelong. Two months from now we will be facing an election which will be the First Time Ever that an impeached president appears on the ballot. Could you talk a little bit about the dynamic that were set into motion by this investigation by the subsequent impeachment and the acquittal that are still playing out today as we head into this final stretch before the election . Thanks karen, i think i will start there. Two big things, one its emboldened donald trump. He hates this. Hes angry. He doesnt like disdain and he wants to win. The very night the house voted to impeach he got a big crowd in michigan and promised four more years. Same time, its jeopardize the republican majority in the senate. In key swing states people were upset that they like to think the senate are independent thinkers, checks on the presidency and sarah gideon is using what Susan Collins said and did in that voting not to acquit. You will see that both its been kind of a boom for trump and his supporters saying we are going to win it back but in the senate theres problems especially in these divided states. Could you remind people what was that Susan Collins said in deciding to acquit the president , she said he will be chastened by this, he will essentially clean up his act. Any evidence hes done that . Absolutely not. Im from maine so ive been watching this race closely up there and sarah gideon and a lot of political aare making the case that Susan Collins always concerned, shes always worried about something. She seems like shes getting a very thoughtful consideration to whatever the issue is, kavanaugh, the trump impeachment, she always ends up coming down on the side of trump. Thats a big part of sarah gideons campaign is a Susan Collins, she may say shes a moderate but hes actually very much in the trump camp. We document that in the book and we show how she went through this whole process and ultimately came down on all trump side. Another thing that i think has implications that go beyond the Trump Presidency is that over and over again in this book what you see is the career of Public Servants are being vilified over and over again as some sort of hostile deep state, in the case of Lieutenant Colonel benjamin, somebody who literally has bled for his country. What you think the longterm implications of that are for the morale of Public Servants and also the willingness of people to take on these careers in the future . Its massive, absolutely massive. ahad a long tradition in the country of having Civil Service career professionals who are experts in Foreign Policy and health and taxation and whatever else it is, they dont make policies, the president makes policies the administration makes policy but you have to be able to rely on wellinformed experience Civil Service to carry out whatever the president ial directives are. We saw that over and over in the impeachment of ain ukraine and Alexander Vindman in the white house. So many of these people who have such experience. There was one day there was a hearing in the two people testifying were bill taylor, the acting ambassador to ukraine and george kemps, Top State Department official. Between the two they have almost 80 years of service to this country in the military and in diplomacy and the state department and when they sat down the democrats thought, look at these two incredible witnesses we have these are unimpeachable witnesses and the republicans many of them look at them and saw something to be suspicious of. These are people who work deep state people out to get the president , without any evidence that was ever true, as we document in the book, these people were doing nothing but trying to serve their country. We use both the republican and democratic testimony documents to show how the experts, these are experts in the state department, in the intelligence service, people served for decades both parties just felt undermined and. I think that is a huge factor. Donald trump junior tweeted at some point, we need less of these jokers and these positions and its hard, so many have been run out of the jobs they been retired and forced out its gonna have a longterm effect on morale. Before we delve more into some of the things you uncovered in your reporting, id like to talk a little bit about your collaboration. I dont know if everyone whos watching realizes you two have been married for 27 years, that for over half of your marriage you have shared overseas afor the Washington Post and i believe you two are sitting in the very room you wrote that book. Can you talk a little bit about what its like to take on a big project like this with yourself . People ask us all the time, i tell them and at the honest to god truth, when i write with mary it feels like im writing with one hand on the keyboard. I cant tell you how many times mary has saved me from humiliating myself. I think its one plus one equals seven, it just kinda works. Kevin used to say abthere is something about the mix. In this case we had to do it very quickly and we had a powerhouse of collaboration with the national staff, the National Security staff, the white house staff and Washington Post overseas staff and. We should also say Steve Luxenberg was involved with this process every step of the way. Everything gets set into motion with a telephone call between the president and the new president of ukraine on july 25 2019. I think we all thought we knew everything there was to know about that call, the white house put out there whats described as a transcript, loose notes but one thing that you guys managed to get a hold of was what was happening on the other end of that call. Could you talk a little bit about that . What were the motivations in washington and what were the motivations in ukraine and even having this conversation. One of the key things we were trying to do is create vivid scenes and we realize that while we knew that was in the situation room listening to donald trump when he was on the phone and private residence in the white house, we needed the other side. With reporting we actually were able to piece together half an hour before that call in a small room on the fourth floor the president ial mansion that overlooks this gorgeous cathedral, thousands of miles away, the aides of the president ukraine were passing him notes and funny enough, they were saying things like, the guy has this big ego, this trump guy, make sure you boost him up. Somebody actually said you think we should say we might have a trump tower here, they said, maybe better not that. For sure talk about the swamp, he loves that word. Of course brandnew president dependent on aid Critical Military aid wants to get along with the new u. S. President it was really illuminating scene and then an important thing to add to the picture of what was going on. And motivation for the coliseum, ukrainians desperately wanted donald trump to meet with the laskey at the white house. They wanted that grip and grin at the white house mainly so they could show it to Vladimir Putin and say, this shows the relationship between the United States and ukraine is solid, they are our allies and allied against our military aggression in ukraine except thats what the ukrainians wanted. Donald trump had been giving talking points from his people saying we should talk about russian aggression standing tall with ukraine, talk about fighting corruption in that country and vindman and some of the other people were literally holding their breaths because trump ad libs and we all know that, thats his right. But he very quickly went off the rails and started talking about joe biden and crowd strike and some of these other things that were so jarring to the ukrainians when we did reporting on the ukrainian side it was really funny because ukrainians were googling crowd strike, what is crowd strike, they had no idea what he was talking about. Crowd strike is eating at a company that supposedly had access to the dnc server and according to conspiracy theories had hidden it somewhere in ukraine, correct . Its a long naughty Conspiracy Theory. That rudy giuliani, talking about undermining the experts, he was going around flying to europe and elsewhere saying things like, its not really russia that interfered, its ukraine, then he would throw in crowd strike. This call was going off the rails and they have been used to that because sometimes donald trump when you hear the word ukraine he would say, miss America Pageant or Miss Universe pageant. Even while used to that, they were still surprised. They still regarded it as a friendly call, they didnt get what they wanted but regarded as a step forward. Afterward someone brought in bowls of chocolate and vanilla ice cream, it was a very hot afternoon, they were eating it and celebrating and then it occurred to them, wait, we got absolutely nothing out of that call all we got was talk about joe biden and crowd strike. So their enthusiasm cool very quickly with the ice cream. [laughter] zelinski and trump had something in common because so lenski before he was elected was known primarily as a Television Celebrity just like donald trump was. You get the sense that these two guys kind of get each other on some level, dont you . They do and during the call zelinski was very quick to say, mr. President we learned so many lessons from what you did in your election, we are trying to drain the swamp too. I think he meant it. I think he also understood this was the way to get into Donald Trumps good graces was about him up. But he did mean it. And a lot has been made about the fact that zelinski never stood up and said i was pressured by the president of the United States. He would be insane to say that and he knows because he is a performer. He needs this relationship with trump, he needs this relationship of the United States. Document all kinds of people right around and in ukraine who say absolutely that he felt pressure. Absolutely. Another one of the really interesting characters in the book was nancy pelosi, who at the outset of this says she is absolutely against impeachment, she actually uses the phrase with our colleague joe heim that trump is not worth it he stop this is essentially something that should be decided by the election but the forces kind of build and in some ways almost take this decision out of her hands, could you talk a little bit about that . A lot of the book is that because she is after all the leader of this whole unruly group, some far left, some more centrist and she was kind of taking the temperature all along. There is one sparing moment i think because life is so fastpaced theres so much going on its worth revisiting, pelosi always looked to john lewis who was then alive and at one point stood in the house in one of his last times we heard from him before he died and a lot of people listen to john lewis, he was such a archon and civil rights movement, nancy pelosi was listening as she was trying to figure out what to do he said, people are coming up to me and they say that under this president i feel we are descending into darkness and he said, when i go to sleep at night, i worry when i wake up, our democracy wont be here. I think at the time it didnt really get as much attention because so much is going on but she was listening to lewis and she was listening to other people and eventually felt she had to go. We document very vividly in the book the republican view of this whole thing too. From the beginning the republicans were saying, this is nothing but a democratic effort to undo the 2016 election we been trying to do this since the day donald trump was elected as the witchhunts and a scam and scheme and all the other words weve heard. Nancy pelosi heard that too and she kept saying to her awe have to make sure this isnt a onesided impeachment that this has to be bipartisan. We need something we need a crime basically that is everyone can understand its easy for the public to understand and then leaves public and abearly on some of the things that were happening she didnt think they rose to that level then the phone call happened and we had a whistleblower complaint that laid out what was said on that call we document in the book her evolution, she heard that more and more people in her caucus were starting to call for impeachment and she finally september 24 just decided she had a responsibility she had a duty to go forth. A lot of the republicans we spoke with said, i dont like what Donald Trumps book, let the Voters Decide, thats again why people are saying its important to look at this the whole point was, okay, be informed, know everything thats happened as we head to the polls because there were republicans who at least privately were upset but what he was doing but just didnt feel that they should throw him out of office, especially when we were this close to an election. Thats why we feel this book is so relevant to the election, its not a history book about impeachment, its about the factors going into this election now and the case for and against trump are laid out and borders can read it and decide for themselves, people were saying all along lets let the Voters Decide and heres our chance in november. At the beginning they think they might be able to pull a couple republicans off here and there but it becomes clear to them that that just isnt going to happen, i think it probably becomes clear at that wonderful moment you write about where will gets up and announces this does not rise to impeachment. Was at the moment the die was cast and the Republican Party decides with the exception of mitt romney and the senate decides theyre all on board with the president . We have great reporting from him who i think was getting annoyed that everyone understood he was not just a kneejerk supporter of donald trump he had written an oped in the New York Times criticizing trumps policy toward russia so he was somebody in the middle. The more he looked up the impeachment the more he decided that it didnt rise to the level but every day he would show up on these media lists of republicans who might slip. I think he was getting more and more frustrated with the fact that he was being called that so forget the date and one of the hearings he rather than used is time to ask questions of the witness he used his five minutes to make a really stirring speech where he said this doesnt rise, this fumbles Foreign Policy this is ridiculous this is inapt handling of our Foreign Policy but i dont see a crime here that the president should be impeached for. That was a pretty key moment because i think there was a lot of democrats deflated that if they couldnt flip wellhim who they going to flip. Sandra stevenson from maryland wants to know what was your Biggest Surprise when you are writing and reporting this book . I think, we lay out exactly how trump uses pro trump media, for instance, fiveyearold network that most people hadnt heard of, one americans network. He puts giuliani, encourages giuliani to go on, he gets a clip that talks about some Conspiracy Theory about ukraine and there it goes, don junior tweets it and then he tweets it and then all the sudden its all over the news. With 85 million twitter followers, donald trump is famous for boasting that he is bigger than any media company. How its seated i think we were surprised at how uniform and walk stop it often is and how quickly, trump has said, going to do this, lets see how long it takes to get on all the network news. It was pretty eyeopening to us. We lay out in great detail one example, on march 20, hill tv which has a few thousand dollars but upper report that was basically sourced from prosecutor in ukraine who was rudely discredited, someone who United States regarded as may be involved in corruption, certainly not reliable to stop he said that the u. S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch was corrupt. There wasnt then and still is zero evidence that she is in any way corrupt. But that goes up at 11 00, at 3 00 p. M. Sean hannity has it on his radio show, which has 14 million listeners a week, by that evening hannity has on his television show, which is one the most powerful Media Outlets in the planet and right after that Donald Trump Tweets the headline from this relatively obscure hill tv and the next morning trump himself tells a to fire jovanovich who had done nothing wrong. From a spark of basically nothing to the president order desk was less than 24 hours and it was remarkable to watch. In many ways this book is an xray of the president s playbook and how he operates. By using documenting testimony and documents again both republican and democrats that were used in impeachment, here is a way to show because the methods and things going on here, dismissing the experts, having rogue characters like giuliani, using pro trump media, this is not a one time off thing for donald trump. We think theres great value we kind of use it to really up close analyze the trump playbook. Thats the other thing about this hill tv report, ultimately hill tv doesnt quite write a retraction of this but they acknowledge that there reporting methods were improper that they should have identified the journalist who did it as an opinion journalist, not somebody who was just a straightforward news guy. By then, its not that the horse is out of the barn, its like a herd of horses is out of the barn. They already achieved with this journalistically suspect report, what they wanted to achieve, isnt that correct . Yes, and the messaging, one of the things that donald trump, and we document how the democrats were really kind of, to match the amazing messaging machine out of the white house, they are simple, its a hoax, its a witchhunt, get out early, call it collusion, but the story, even if its not correct, just set the tone, make it simple and the democrats time and time again have proven to make it a little bit more complicated, a little harder to understand and a lot less unified because you have the left of the party the centrist and its more of a noisy group and they were trying, like there were meetings that we document about saying, okay, the white house is given unified simple, how are we going to counter that . In a few minutes we have left, i think i would like to go to a point you raise in the final few pages of the book. I found in some ways the most haunting of all. Impeachment, as you write, Alexander Hamilton envisioned it as something that would happen very very rarely but we have seen it happen now twice in just a little over 20 years and in both cases it played out exactly the same. A house that is controlled by the president s officeition and beaches him and his neck get saved by his own partisans in the senate. You may raise the question of how we almost cheapening what should be a very rare occurrence in our system stop has impeachment become too easy and is it essentially going to be what the future looks like . Thats a great question. The impeachment is one of the major systems in the and are systems of checks and balances, one of the major mechanisms to hold the president accountable for it now appears that its really more of a protest howl than any way to actually remove the president from office because anytime you have a president who has majority in the house, and opposition majority in the house, they risk impeachment but if they know that they have a friendly majority in the senate, remember, Neither Party has had a two thirds majority in the senate, which is what is required to impeach to remove someone from office, nobodies have that for 80 years. Its not, change anytime soon. Donald trump was impeached in the house, which you could see that coming, then he was acquitted in the senate and we think what appears it appears that trump has learned that this is embolden him, this has allowed him to say, i can do pretty much anything i want, Senate Republicans are obviously would argue with that if he committed a crime that they presumably would impeach him but it does seem like we have set this up to weaken the balance of powers between the branches of government impeachment is in exactly the tool that the founders envisioned it would be. Its one of the key reasons you will hear democrats say that donald trump is reelected hell do anything because were not to have even if they retake the senate two thirds what you need in the senate in these part ofartisan times. Other people say in these partisan times that incredible downline partisan vote with republicans in the house just second with trump that because of our times are so divided and so partisan, what long ago the founders may have envisioned people would bump their conscious if they thought the president stepped over the line. Its sad to see that happening in our System People should be able to vote their conscious to john lewis as worry about democracy a check on all powerful presidency is what america is about, we dont want a dictator. This impeachment was a check and like what you are saying is people are really worried we dont have that check in these days and so thats why you hear so many people saying, whats happened to our democracy as we know it. What do you think trumps legacy is going to be that he was impeached or that he was acquitted . As the democrats kept saying, impeach for life, its in asterisks. Trump will always be a key candidate impeached. Is that his legacy or is his legacy that he then came back and won an incredible reelection despite all this . Its too soon to know i think. I do think that november will know what the legacy is. Thank you so much, unfortunately thats all the time we have today but thank you kevin, thank you mary, and congratulation on this absolutely terrific book. Please be sure to check out their new book trump on trial the investigation impeachment acquittal and aftermath. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks karen. Heres a look at books being published this week in rage the Washington Post bob woodward reports on president Trumps National and Foreign Policy decisions. Historian joe lepore explores the origins of sima maddox exploration a company that participated in data mining and consumer manipulation during the cold war in her book if then he stopped in a cry for the farmab political commentator Candace Owens argues the democratic policies are harmful to black americans and suggests they vote republican in blackout. And new map Pulitzer Prize winning author Daniel Yergin looks at how Climate Change and new sources of energy are changing Global Politics and Michael Denzel smith suggests the American Dream is not attainable for most and suggests how the u. S. Can redefine itself and sticks as high. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold and watched for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. Sarah Huckabee Sanders reflected on her life and time serving as the White House Press secretary for the trump administration, shes interviewed by Bloomberg News senior White House Reporter jennifer jacobs. Afterwards is a weekly Interview Program with relevant guest hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work all afterwards programs are available as podcasts
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.