Become known as the 8 10 check who likes to dance. Thanks for having me on. I went from being a motion sick little girl to being our first woman in us history to fly a fighter jet in combat and when obama was finally made, it was against the law, it was against policy i broke through that barrier putting women and girls behind me and it was not an easy journey and you know, i was trying to show i could fly the jet. Doesnt matter if youre a boy or a girl, it just cares whether you can fly and shoot straight but it was a challenging time so i decided to beat them at their own game. One of those things was turning the back over a little while i shared how somebody said that to me and i thought if i died tomorrow is is the last day that i have on this planet after all the effort i tried to make a difference in others lives, if thats how im going to be remembered so i quit. When you talk about giving, youre talking about chewing tobacco. I know thats gross to people but you got to read the book to understand the context of that whole journey. What is an a10 . Is called a war on and it was made to go after soviet tanks on the frontline and it was designed for what we call Close Air Support total folklore is a dont mistake 30 millimeter gun and went to the engineers and said figure out how to fly this done. Im not sure if its true but its single, theres no qc model and there were no simulators and i went for training so your first flight is so low and went i bring you the con pocket of the a10 in i share that first day and how i had to overcome my own fears and then i take you into the canyons in afghanistan for one of my most complex missions where i had to fly in but everything went wrong so the job has really changed. Its still the same mission but its adapted to the current bike that weve been in where if youre an american on the ground and youre in a firefight is often very complex , very close proximity, good guys and bad guys. We take off in order to provide that firepower overhead and its very important that you can deliver that firepower again from three dimensions, looking from above. Youre coming in to be able to ensure that we save american lives and we deliver that firepower on the bad guys and we avoid friendly fire and get them home to their families and lives to fight anotherday. Its so survivable i can talk about it all day as you could tell. We have a titanium around the cockpit to protect us from taking direct hits because its built to be on the front line. We can lose one engine, all our hydraulics are electric and i have holes in the plane and still flyback safely. You quote a fellow pilot as saying flight is like wrestling while doing long division. What does thatmean . I thought it was a great example of career day when one of my friends said in the middle of the resume match if they physically and mentally demanding at thesame time. When we were in afghanistan we would take off on perhaps a routine combat mission, theres nothing routine about it but we would take off with end of every area in afghanistan and we would often be diapered custards were under fire somewhere and we would be given a callsign, a radiofrequency and told go help those guys so youre doing a lot of calculation, a lot of trying to figure out how to insure your weapons your targets. Coordination with your wingmen and you can have one or three people on your way with the guys on the ground in some circumstances you may be conflicting with artillery and theres a lot of timing involved and a lot of physics involved. While the bad guys are trying to take you out and sorting that out mentally and physically is a part of the mission but you come back sometimes from these long flights you would be drenched as if you had entered and im an athlete,. Work out mentally andphysically. Senator, this is a question i have never asked a us senator before but its apropos to you. How tall are you . When i went through trying to get my pilot clearance i was about five foot 3 and a half on a good day. I think you get shorter over time when you get older but i was a littletoo short. But my sitting life, sorry my sitting life, that was short so my leg length was the issue. I couldnt quite meet the standards read like kids you got to be this tall to ride this ride what they did is they put us through sittings in the cockpit because everybodys a littlebit different. Can you see over the dashboard to put it in civilian terms,can you reach the brakes and the runners , can you wish hard old runner because thats what you do to get out of thespin. You have to be able to do that can you function in the cockpit and i pass all those tests so i was cleared to fly by the flight surgeon, by the Instructor Pilot that i kept having bureaucrats that i couldnt fly because of some arbitrary number that they came up with so we pushed hard, we did some creative routes and i share in dare to fly not many people will go through that but they can relate to being frustrated with people trying to take their dream away or having obstacles come up in your own life. So many people are experiencing that right now or having your friends he derailed. People can relate to that a lot in 20 20 so i shared a lesson of persevering and being creative and dont have a chip on your shoulder but find two ways to make your dreams and thatwas eventually cleared to fly. Pockets basically are designed for average height men , is that correct . They were. Just recently the air force announced finally this year that they are doing away with the arbitrary height restrictions and now theyre just treating people as individuals to make sure that their fit to fly. The same thing is an issue if youre too tall. You cant sit in the cockpit you cant close the canopy, youve got to be able to keep your side straight because when you call the injection handles youve got massive key forcesthat could break your back. If your legs are too long you could lose your legs as you go to check out of the airplane so the limitations are there for a reason a lot of , some men and a lot of women miss out on opportunities and arbitrary numbers and theyre finally saying that all these years later. You grow up wanting togo to the air force academy . Not at all. I grew up in a middleclass family and my dad served in the navy before i was born so i grew up with the values of service and hard work and getting a good education but my dad came from humble circumstances but people helped him out. He started working at the age of eight and people believed in him and through using his g. I. Bill he was able to get a good education and he was driven to make a better life for us kids and i really benefited from that but i lost him when i was 12. I should have show this in dare to fly and its destructive as you can imagine, its a girl affected a girls life in a profound way and among other things in between attacks when i was blessed to visit with him he told me to make him proud and he passed away the next day and the day before we were hanging out together as a family this is a sudden shock in my life. My mom, i have was a single mom with five kids and i was back to school as a Public School teacher and i knew education was the key to my future. Those were hard years, very difficult for me as an adolescent but i also wanted to carry on his legacy do something meaningful with my life as i look for opportunities in education i didnt want to battle my mama and i settled into going into the air force academy and you make these decisions when youre 17 so most parents can relate to teenagers being a little flaky trying to find their way and i endup applying to the air force academy and off i went. Applied originally to be a doctor, corrects . I went to the academy i wasnt five to fly because of the height thing but i didnt want to fly. I didnt know what i was talking about i was also a little motion sick as a kid and i thought getting a degree and becoming a doctor was a good path for me. So i went off to the academy and i thought for the first time in my life that just because i was a girl i could do something. I never knew there were restrictions on me and i found that it was against the law the law for women to be Fighter Pilots and im a little pricey, you might be able to tell that so i channeled my feistiness into something positive. I said thats what i want to do just because you said i couldnt and im going to prove you wrong though i had this desire in my heart simply because i said women and girls could not do that. And that charted my very long path to eventually being cleared for takeoff, almost 10 years later. I realize in those formative years that being a doctor was mortified with losing my dad and tied with my grief and trying to save other kids so it was my grief not my calling and i had to let that go. What you remember about your first solo flight . First flight . The low light, i was at the air force academy and we go, we fly in like a little chestnut like what you do get your private pilot license and when the Instructor Pilot saysyoure ready to go you usually do a practice on that day. And then they get out of the airplane and say youre good to go. We use the term often, i was an Instructor Pilot later in other planes, dont do anything dumb, different or dangerous is what they say. When you go for that solo. I remember my heart beating, mouth dry, i cant believe im about to go fly this airplane by myself. And i share again in there to fly how you can overcome your fear and choose to do things afraid read how you can take off afraid like it that day. I wasnt sure i really could do it but my instructor believed in me and other others that had gone before me i took off and i had my first amazing flexible and i continue to push past my fear to be able to fly in combat and lead in combat later in life and everyone can relate to having fear almost paralyzed you and i want to encourage the reader to do things afraid in their own life. The matter if its taking off in a plane, whatever it is thats holding you back. You are one of the top graduates in your class. Did that open up all opportunities for you . It did. I work hard to read theres a lot of highcaliber people go to our military academy and i wanted to be a pilot and i was dealing with this height thing that was holding me back and i was refocused on Pilot Training and as i was getting delayed and derailed i was offered a scholarship to go to harvard so that was an amazing opportunity, between 1988 and 1990 i went to the Kennedy School of government, to get a masters in Public Policy and those are the years the soviet union collapsed and studying International Security was just an amazing opportunity for me. At the time of course i was just trying to buy time to get my pilot clearance but what an amazing educational experience i had to include number internships. And an internship in the pentagon, my second year once a month. Then later on it was given the opportunityto get another masters degree. What an incredible chance i had as this middleclass whippersnapper, just trying to make a difference in the world and do something meaningful with my life but the military gave me these opportunities to get a good education and to command women in combat so those doors were open because i was working hard and excelling at where i was even though there were restrictions on me, i said dont have a chip on your shoulder, keep the dream in your heart you never know when thatopportunity might,. One of the rights of your life you describe as the key 37 to del rio. What does that mean mark. What i shared was many of us can have dreams like i did and many can relate tothis right now and 2020. Many peoples plans have been the rail because of this pandemic i took a route to cause this still didnt change the law. It wasnt there, it was against the law even though i graduated higher than others who performed less than me i still be a Fighter Pilot because i was a girl though i took an assignment to be an Instructor Pilot flying the t 37, wasnt a glamorous job it gave me the opportunity. Youre turning pedestrians and pilots, are often putting you in dangerous tuitions and puking all over you but its important work. But people usually didnt take it but i thought it was a chance for me to keep building my airman ship, excelling, keep growing in my experience as a pilot and keep the door open that if they changed the law and the policy, the law would change at that point the policy wasnt what i felt like it was going to happen soon and i would be ready and i would be leaning forward and building my experience and its exactly what happened. The door open and i was in the right place at the right time with the right experience the reader what your key 37 . I look back and had i not been derailed initially i would not have been in the position to actually have broken the barriers and then the first woman to fly in combat so sometimes you cant see the tour is actually taking you on your path to your destiny and that was my experience. What is the key 37. 1337 is a low wing trainer plane and its no longer flying. It was built i think in the 60s and its sidebyside. Student and Instructor Pilot, very maneuverable and in the six months of piloting every pilot learn how to fly in the t 37. How many women were in your graduating class at the air force academy . A graduated about 1000 cadets and i was in the ninth class with women i think we were about 10 percent at that time so right around 100. From your book dare to fly. Like many young women in a maledominated environment i learned to succeed by being one of the guys. I think a lot of women can relate to this area and it wasnt necessarily a conscious choice and i have three older brothers and one older sister i jumped that i had to fight for my food as a kid but i had to learn how to even though there was an environment everybody was looking at us, how we were going to perform, there was still a lot of naysayers about women being at the military academy. We had to prove ourselves and we had to change peoples minds one at a time. So often times you would think that women often would Work Together but many women can relate to this in maledominated fields. At the time you felt like you were on your own and you just wanted to show you were different patriots as men and women. You wanted to serve just like them so just be one of the guys, blend in. Dont be sticking out in any way, just do your job and do it well and prove you can be a patriot. Was that a good path . Well, it was the path i took when i was young and you cant look back on wisdom in your 50s the decisions you make as a teenager. I feel like at the time in that environment allowed me to succeed and allow me to change a lot of peoples minds, to prove that women did belong sidebyside serving and we are america and we pick the best one for the job even if its a woman, where a meritbased society, thats what were about so it provided the opportunity to open up peoples eyes while focusing on performance. How well are you excelling in those things that are objective . Thats the most important thing in ensuring that people see that we belong serving alongside you. Senator mcsally therewere several times when youpushed back strongly as you described in dare to fly including in saudi arabia , what was that . This was right after we transitioned into fighters and it was the first deployment any woman have been on in fighters and i walked by the beauty and saw a picture of a young woman in saudi arabia with full muslim black gown and head start and at first i thought it was a local woman and then i thought this was the appropriate way to wear a headscarf and i said what is that and it just gripped me that it was law. On so many levels. How we were were we having our usservicewomen where muslim garb when they were deployed . I didnt understand. I was a young captain but i felt this deep conviction that it was wrong i started looking into where did this policy come from and why were they doingit . Did i know i could have walked by bravo and thats one lesson i have in the book. Dont walk by a problem. I saw that even though it didnt apply to me. I looked into it to see where it is coming from, who decided this, what are they doing it and the standup and say that its wrong and needs tochange. Itll did i know it would be an eight year journey and that journey with years later, and then ordering me over to saudi arabia, telling me to sit in the backseat of the car and slipped the bird on myself, telling me we should lie and have a servicewomen claim me as their wife instead of their boss or their fellow servicemen if we were offbase and we raise these questions and i can believe it so i went up and down the chain of command for many years trying to get this changed. I shared this and its two chapters because it is a long story of one person standing up to make a difference and i shared the secretary of defense and ended up working for thelegislation. Never would have asked for this battle but i would do it again because it was against our values and i believe its against our constitution that we even use taxpayer money to buy this religious star and forth it on women serving in their official capacity area it didnt make any sense and in and i won this battle but it wasnt an easy one. You dont wake up and say im going to see the secretary of defense today. But it shared a little bit of my lessons of dont walk by a problem and if you think something is wrong do something about. Persevere, there arecreative ways to change it. And your ground, continue to look for ways to make a difference and even if it comes at personal cost to you. I was in saudi arabia last year driving a car and wearing regular clothes and it was ultimate closure for me of that very long battle. That battle began with a pair of sweatpants and ended with you asking a public question to secretary william perry. It did. From my base in kuwait they were making us wear long baggies sweatpants all the time on base. Whatever the temperature was outside. When youre trying to exercise which you need to do to stay safe as Fighter Pilots it was another ridiculous policy of a little Cultural Senate sensitivity run, where americans were doing this to our own people so i was being irritated by that double standard in kuwait and ultimately i have to make a decision whether i was going to seek out, that was my first cup decision when secretary perry came to visit or whether i was going to be silent and do what was bestfor me this was not an easy decision. I share calling back to a mentor and asking for advice, i didnt want to do it. I was trying to keep my head down and show women belong and the last thing i wanted to do was raise a womens issue. We were still transitioning into fighter but my mentor told me to read the book of esther and i share this story in dare to fly and the line hit me , can it be that you were put in this position for such a time as this and i think thats a message for everybody whos listening. Wherever you are when you feel strongly about making a difference and not walking by a problem can it be that you were put in this position for such a time that you are the one to speak out, youre the one thats going to take that risk and make that difference and that was my journey over those eight years. One of the continual themes in your book dare to fly estate. I grew up in a family of faith and went to church each week. It wasnt personal for me as a young kid. And in that kind of connection but my parentswere people of faith. I later got letters from friends of my dad when he was in college, he was just on his knees every night praying to god but when my dad died when i was 12 i was angry at god which is understandable. I was asking a lot of questions that i didnt ask a 12yearold in a stable middleclass family and i just shared my raw journey. Its not a pat journey but all raw journey of going through that brief and going through some other very difficult experiences in my life. But finding in the abyss and darkness, finding my own faith and reaching out for the hand of god in my life to help me through that journey and its not a path way that i described it, its a raw way like most people in my relationship with god and then how ive grown in that space over time now he is with me in combat and in victory and on mountain tops and in the depths of despair and grief as we can all relate to as well. Another continual themein your book is marathon. Im an endurance athlete though i shared, ive run many marathon and a couple ironman triathlons. So perseverance is certainly a theme in my life and i think those experiences have helped as ive had toendure other things where i needed to persevere. I share coaching a group of my squadron mates when i was a commander as they all finished their first marathon some of which will build to get through the mile and a half test and i just shared if you come up with a plan and you put your mind to it and you do the training and you do the hard work, you can cross the finish line. A lot of it is mental. A lot of those challenges are mental thats an analogy, and metaphor for many things in life that you got to keep putting one foot in front of the other area i talk about getting to the first water station. You dont stand in a marathon and think about how youre going to feel at mile 25. Youll never get going if you think about that if you think about going to get to the first water station at mile one, thatsdoable. Get going, run a good pace and stop for water at mile one and for many things these goals seem unreachable and if you break them down you come up with a plan and you do the training and then you get to the first water station. I get this practical step about how to get through difficult, long arduous things in life are there actual athletic endeavors or other amazing is that you may have but youjust dont know where to start. Center, after your father died you relate how a coach abused you and you also write in there to fly while at the air force academy, i was raped, yes, rate. Those are not easy words to say or to write. And after i lost my dad i was a nacve, very vulnerable kid. Who was very trusting and looking for other father figures in my life and that trust was deeply trade as a teenager in high school. And it almost crushed me. I share this in my book and many women and men can relate to this. The sexual abuse of young people is something that is has impacted so many peoples lives. Its happening in ways that you may not even know so i wanted to share that iq have been through this and as i went off to the air force academy one reason honestly was to getaway from the perpetrator. One of my decisions points was get away. I realized that you cant get away from the pain and i realized that later and the impact and had other Sexual Assault experiences in the military. These things almost crushed me. I want to be really honest about that. There were some despairing moments in the valley of betrayal, of a crime that was committedagainst me. And i was able to buy the grace of god find my way out of those valleys. I was able to one foot in front of the other, find my own healing over time. Find my own path and i share these stories so that others who maybe this happened yesterday or a decade ago and realized they need to find their healing to read that you already been robbed so much, dont let your perpetrator rob you of your future. Dont let your perpetrator rob you of your potential and your destiny and theyre not thinking of you right now so dont let them you back anymore. Find your own path to healing and i share that because i wanted to be a sign of hope and light for others who have been through this is so many. Finally senator your path to the u. S. Senate isprobably one of the most unique ever taken, correct . It is and is continued in the theme of these books which talks about politics. But the journey i had was similar of persevering and derailment and ups and downs but also purpose. And then i decided to run again so talk about perseverance and we ran again in 2014 and this time it was 43 date recount and they won by a whopping 167 votes. My callsign landslide is my new nickname but, i am the same person who flew in the [inaudible] and overcame the adversity. Through ups and downs and challenges in adversity i am now in a place where this is the last year of my life and i think about having lost my dad what will i do to make a difference and that is what i view all of this as a continuation of my service. If the same exact oath of office that i took for the military. Host dare to fly is the title of the book and the author is martha mcsally. We appreciate you joining us on what tv. Guest absolutely. Share your stories with me and you can be inspired and i have been inspired by sony peoples who shared their story so far. We are all overcoming adversity and overcoming so go to dare to fly. Us and share those stories. This afternoon President Trump will deliver remarks in yuma, arizona on immigration, Border Security and watch live coverage beginning at 5 15 p. M. Eastern here on cspan2 also online on cspan. Org or you can listen with the free radio app. Week ninth this month or featuring booktv programs as a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan2. Tonight, starting at 8 00 p. M. Eastern university of california berkeley law professor and former Deputy Assistant attorney general from the george w. Bush administration weighs in on physical powers for the u. S. Constitution. Then Princeton University history professor explores the political ascendancy of former speaker of the house, Newt Gingrich and argues that congressional leadership is the beginning of americas hyper partisan divide in later Newt Gingrich offers his thoughts on why President Trump should be reelected in 2020. Enjoy booktv on cspan2. Our live coverage of the Democratic National Convention Continues tonight with congresswoman alexandria ocasiocortez, former president bill clinton and former second lady doctor jill biden. Live coverage of the Democratic National convention tonight and 9 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. Live streaming and ondemand on cspan. Org dnc or listen with the free cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. Monday, the postmaster general testifies on Postal Service operations and the upcoming president ial election. Watch live at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan2, online at cspan. Org or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Pramila, thank you for the conversation and for writing your book. I have to tell you it was a real pleasure reading your book. We Work Together when we were in washington 18 hours a day and there is almost no opportunity for us to get to know each other as people. Every once in a while you make a few friends but what a remarkable story here. You arrive in the United States at the age of 17, born in india, educated in india, granddaughter of an indian British Police officer, remarkable mother and
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