Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Wes Moore 20240712

In your book the works you write the military saved your life. What you mean by that . I think the military plays an incredibly Important Role in my life with the most important times in my life but wearing uniform of this country and i was first introduced i was 13 years old. I was sent to military school i had on mandatory year. I got some issues and challenges when i was younger every year she said i will send you away and i blew her off. I built handcuffs on my risk for the first time at 11 years old. I was intentionally hurting people that love to me so finally one day she came up to me and said im sending you to military school. Honestly i thought she was kidding or exaggerating then finally i realized she wasnt sent me a mandatory year. I hated every minute of it when i first started. I remember those first days they are. I ran away five times the first four days. Also the longer i stayed i began to fully understand what it was they were trying to teach me and what my mom is trying to teach me and the fact we did live in the interconnected environment and community and how everybody was doing e and it mattered to my unit as a whole so when i finish high school and i got scholarship offers and doing other things, iol decided the thing that i wanted to do to lead soldiers. Thats why made the decision to join the army. So for me the decision to go into the army was a continuation of the fact i had this Public Service and to help pay for college and that was helpful but also the idea that i felt the debt of gratitude because i felt it was the introduction add a really crucial time in my life to make a lot of a difference. Host what was your role in the 82ndnd airborne . A paratrooper with the 82nd airborneoo division and then my role in afghanistan director of Information Operations for the first for grade on brigade. Thats a long way to say everything we had in terms of information of operations we had within our entire area of operations of regional command east the entire Eastern Region of afghanistan along the pakistan border i was director of Information Operations for that. So at the time when i was leaving afghanistan we had 1700 paratroopers underr our command that we were responsible for. It was amazing and on inspiring experience. Host how did you change after the first year of military school as a 12 yearold . Yes. Thirteen years old. The big thing that changed for me was there was an introduction of leadership. What that means, what it meant and the role it played in my life. I felt military school gave me a chance we make a identity that was important to rethink my role and space in society but also there was a very intentional introduction of leadership and thaton matters. People talk about military school they need discipline and do pushups and the reality is you will that is true. But that is not what makes the experience useful for me what made it t for me was introduction of leadership and the idea they will very much introduce you to leadership early in a deliberate way to put you in charge of something. After the initial basic training they will put you in charge of something. Relatively early and relatively small. Its not because of their but they will put you in charge of a hallway or the dumpsters or whatever if its clean we will congratulate you if its dirty we will help you if they notice you do a good job and you are promoted and then you move on to the next thing maybe a couple of cadets or soldiers under your command and then you move up and he was upo so there is a sense of responsibility the way they try to teach leadership that is not only useful and important for me but also gave me abu taste of what was actually important. So i knew going in leading people was important to me. I knew whether in the case of decadets or soldiers or the work that we do now, being able to be the person who can help shape the direction of organizations and execute , that became really important and the framework of how to do that also the introduction of the necessity in my life. Host how did you become a Rhodes Scholar . The truth is i think about that experience quite a bit because the first time i had a real conversation about the Rhodes Scholarship was when i was interviewing with the mayor at the time and kurt was a former Rhodes Scholar in the last day of my internship and called me into his office. It in the picture he is pointing towards a picture on the wall. Hes not the type of guy who has camera people following him around. But on that day on the final day of my internship he called me in and said have a you thought about Rhodes Scholarship . I told him i heard about it but hadnt thought about g it in the picture thats in my office it points to the wall what hess pointing at is his rhodes class. That was a moment he first told me about the Rhodes Scholarship in a should consider it also gave me instructions on people i should talk to about it and i did just that w. I talk to certain people and had certain people help me with my essays and how do i put my life journey into 1000 words for the application. And i love that story because now there is a picture of my rhodes black and im very clear that never would have happened if that picture didnt happen. So it is an experience i will never forget where literally the plane flew off on 9 11 the world the nation had changed immeasurably at the same time my experience was shaped very much by 9 11 especially as a military officer. To Study International relations in a place i was one of only 18 americans studying. To truly Study International relations from brazil and china and nigeria and argentina. Getting a chance to understand and see how all these dynamics take place in these remarkable people. It was a special experience and i give a lot of thinks to kurt and many others who helped me to realize that pathth was real. Host what is your thought about taking money from the Rhodes Foundation and what did you tell the overview board . One of the last questions they asked me for my interview as i spent time in south africa im also an africanamerican in no our fistory in this country really well. One of the last questions i was asked by the chairman of the a board. He said youve been to south africa and your africanamerican. How can you accept the rhodes money knowing the history and how he made it and the lives lost . I thought about it and i paused and i said i know a few things for sure without him creating the scholarship he did not have me in mind to have me sitting here for the scholarship money and is probably turning in his grave repeatedly knowing that i am here. That does show me what progress means. The fact that something that was not all intended forre me that now i have an opportunity that i can stand there and utilize that but also have a real obligation to do something good. The other thing i know is that my ancestors who fought and bled and built and could build in a way to create a pathway for me and able to sacrifice and dream for a world they did not see that you dream and fight for one that hopefully i would see. And for me to have the opportunity to be there and for me to take the privilege of that and fight the worlds fights come i felt it would be disrespectful not to. So understanding that particularly with the history of diesel rhodes in the history not just even south africa but the entire south african region and the damage that heicn. Did to the people ty are for his own personal benefit because at that time the wealthiest man in the m world. Its not lost its also not lost on the obligation i now have for those benefits that were fought long and hard for me to use that to make sure we can create a more just and fair world. Host [inaudible] i spent part of my childhood growing up in maryland and the bronx. One is baltimore which is where i live now i was born closer to the dc area and then new york i spent a lot of my childhood after my dad died. He was a radio personality in the dcdc area. One day he was complaining about his throat it was bothering him he went to the hospital the next day and as he went to the hospital he was wearing an uneven beard and raggedy clothes and a lot of assumptions were made about myy dad when my mom finally made it to the hospital they said is he prone to exaggeration . They gave him instructions to go home and rest and it got worse and then come back. Five hours later he died. Has a mirror living in maryland in my mom had a very difficult time with the transition and finally call that my grandparents living in the bronx. And the house is barely big enough for them but they figured out a a way to make it big enough for all of us and then after moving up there i spent six or seven years of my childhood before i went to military school in pennsylvania. But what i knew that i had a remarkable and loving family. And with what they had they really try to provide for us. Host from your book the other west more my father was dead five hours after being released from the hospital with the simple instructions to get sleep. They were now preparing to send his body to the morgue. Hos had entered the hospital seeking help but his face was unshaven and his close disheveled and his name unfamiliar and his address and not in the affluent area. The hospital looked at him and insulted him with questions and basically told him to fend for himself. Now my mother had to plan his funeral. Why do you think those assumptions were made . Race. Its one of theoo heartbreaking things. From where we are now. And also people say at what point in your life did you understand the impact of race . And as you just listed out and with that system that we have with the Education System with Environmental Justice its impossible to talk about these things withoutg understanding the role of systemic racism because it will never be lost on me. Because there would have been a benefit and have a benefit of the doubt been given we would not have the same type oof result. And its not just anecdotal. But to reinforce the fact that race is one of the most predictable indicators across education and mortality. And the thing that made that real in the case of my father and my Family History is the idea and then to understand or embrace the impact of race at all. Host who is the other west more . Actually at the same time i was getting ready to head off my hometown paper wrote an article about this local kid who just received a Rhodes Scholarship and writing about my background and my childhood and the fact just ten years ago i had handcuffs on my wrist and now ten years later and what that journey lookat like. But at the samee, time also writing about the armed Jewelry Store robbery and then they got everybody on the ground and then they walked into the store. The guns with the one with the guns keeping everybody on the ground the one with the mallet was smashing the jewelry to take the rings and necklaces and watches. They got 400,000 worth of jewelry. One of the people in the store was a officer moonlighting at 13 year veteran of the police force the three term recipient officer of the year, a father five who just had triplets. He was working that day because it was his day off on the police force and he tookn on a second job to make money for his family. When they left the store he got up off the ground and drew his weapon and ran outside he tried to give himself cover but the vehicle he was leaning next he was one of the vehicles the guys were in. The window was rolled down and he was shot three times that point blank range and killed instantly. There was a 12 day National Manhunt and then all four guys were caught. They captured and tried and sentenced them one guys name was also wes moore. The more i learned about this crime in this tragedy so one day i decided to write him a note i said heres how i heard about you and one month later i got a letter back from west more and that was fascinating to me everything he was alluding to that one letter turned into dozens of letters turning into dozens of visits i have known him over 17 years hes in your 20 have a life sentence him and his older brother and two other guys were there. That to he was in that initial letter turned into something the way i thought about the world to serve as an important reminder that his story could have been mine. And with that decisionmaking and then sometimes that we accidentally fall into. Sometimes its the lack of options but we cannot be so quick to congratulate. Unless they are willing to tunderstand the thing that makes our stories rich and how to understand the neighborhoods we were growing up in an far too many have her children were screaming about what we want from them and what we expect from them i remember he said to me we were talking about baltimore and we were living blocks away fromfr each other and he said to me are we a product . And said i think we are products of expectations. And said he is absolutely right not of our environment better expectations and thats a shame of our expectation the real shame and then to structure that societal system. And when you quote to the other west more talking to yo you, from everything youve told me both of us did wrong stuff when we were younger. Both of us had Second Chances. But if the situation or the context we make the decisions dont change, then Second Chances dont mean to much. Thats right. St and to see to get Second Chances and for what. Thats important for me to appreciate that every one of us needs a second chance. And i tell people all the time they are now two steps forward and one step back. That is now so the idea of needing Second Chances its a very humanistic need for what we are not structured to do as a society is to have any form of parity of apportionment and what that means and we still okknow from every single measure from the criminal Justice System that we have massive disparities. And how these are actually allocated. And those that are living in poverty. With the water they are drinking. And then if you are creating this concentrated level and the idea behind Second Chances and then that song after the book. And then respectfully i need anybody to remind me. But he then the decisions dont separate us i also know if youre not willing to learn theseil lessons are even getting speople an opportunity then that is crucial how we think about thebo world. Host what does he think about you telling his story . I have a friend a remarkable writer. Shes a real writer. That would always ask about wes. I knew about him for years before the idea of the book should always ask what he was ndoing and said i thank you should write about this. There is a story to be told. Im not that interested in writing a book i dont want to dig that deeply into his life for my own. I went to go see him and i said ive been approached about your story and immediately he said i thank you should do it. Is that ive wasted every opportunity ive ever had in life. I will die in here. And then to understand the consequences for their decision. With that decision to do it and then that became the entire fire and focus. That i wanted people to understand. Of the consequences people are making in that context in the neighborhood they are making ythem in. And then just received word. And then with the oped and that is a fantastic writer with a progressive and a brilliant guy and then to say i really enjoyed this book because of race and class in society and in three weeks later, great news we just received word michael is to write an oped and as a former speechwriter to president bush and the b Washington Post and he writes an oped where he says i really enjoy the other west more a great examination of individualnd choice. On they are two completely Different Reasons and my wife said who do you think is right but honestly theyre both right you cant r talk about societal responsibilities individuals will be held to account. However we cannot talk about individual choice of the understanding these choices are made and the societal context that does influence the type of choice and people are making so all of those things help to tie in how illuminating to me but also very humbling in the way i feel it is translated. And then to say and understand where we are asking ourselves every single day how much pain are we willing to tolerate . How much pain can we tolerate farm our neighbors . As long as it doesnt cost too much. And then eating away at our collective soul. Host thank you for joining tv this is that monthly in Depth Program to discuss his or her body of work and take the call. This month author, veteran road scholar former investment banker, wes moore. His book the other west more came out 2010. The work, 2015. The most recent book the fiery reckoning of an American City. Also wrote discovering westmore a young adult to take on the other west more. And a novel called this o way home which came out 2016. Here is how you can participate in our o conversation. What is a visitation process like. It is change now with covid19 wes has not been allowed to have visitors. The right now it is pretty restricted its amongst people they are pretty lockedin now 23 hours that prior to that honestly it is an onerous process because is not like there is heavy encouragement snd often times you look at the situation so its not an easy process and then once you do it is an allday process and then to go into your searches and then you can wait for hours and then its a restricted time. To interact so to stay in touch its a simple thing but not an easy process. Even with Telephonic Communications that exist onright now that are actually charging an exorbitant amount of money despite those that are currently incarcerated and despite the fact if the person can keep contact with family and while they are incarcerated with reentry back into society so the vast majority of people with life sentences or long sentences and the fact to make it so complicated and to make that transition back benefits nobody. Host can you pinpoint the point in your life where you can see yourself as the other westmore . One thing that got me is in many ways arbitrary and deliberate for this framework but the first time i had handcuffs on my wrist and no Real Authority or say of the next phase of how my life would go. And then to be picked up. So you can see how incredibly fickle many communities that were below the poverty line and frankly it was something that was very unfair for the officers to control these areas. You can see how that then that line is and i have to credit where i am now. One of the greatest gifts god gave me as my mother always be grateful for that. Also one thing is that luck. Not a real a meritocracy. So this fuels how much i think about our relationship with wes but also with work that ive been asked to do and continue to do on thiss planet. And then around larger conversation in order for us to do just that and only imagine had it not been some of which had nothing to do with. And how that contributed. That is the dynamic and the challenge. Why did you move back to baltimore . If you Different Reasons. And working as a white house fellow. And then i was working and finance and then to be promoted a couple times and then to find a real role and the way my w mind works it is more qualitative i have to work a lot harder. I knew i wanted to spend my time to focus on the things that made my heart beat faster. It wasnt thinking. So actually having a conversation with my oldld boss and a told him i think i want to do something different. He said understand its not hop out and hot back in but to make that decision and they still thought it was the right thing to do and you say i get it and youre ready support of my journeyman movingg back home thats an amazing place filled with amazing people its quirky and complicated thats also being written as we speak. It used to be a city of close to 1 Million People now less than 600,000 with the exception of cleveland and detroit baltimore has last more citizens than any other majorn American City and it is of Thurgood Marshall and home of babe ruth and with that discriminatory policy and transportation policy the country has ever done with its i population. While at the same time we were celebrating the rebirth that they were having at the same time around the same time to learn about the names of anderson and brown. And freddy gray. And still healing from its past and the please from baltimore take that very seriously so the fact im very much trying to raise my family here but people who had roots who are no longer here. And its the place as we speak and the chance to actually be 600,000 and authors of a pretty Great American story is exciting to me. And that m embodied ownership and that became a pretty easy decision. Host where we living saturday april 12, 2015. Baltimore at the time. Host what happened thatay day . That was the day freddy gray made eye contact with police. And that was his crime and its important to understand thats not a crime everywhere but distinctly labeled high crimes and high property areas if you. Make eye contact thats enough to trigger. And then you can be chased and arrested. Had that been done in another neighborhood mile and a half from 2 miles away he would been going for a job. And eventually rested and one hour after he was arrested he was in a, when he finally made it to the Medical Center he had three broken and vertebrae and a crushed larynx and voicebox he never made it out of the coma and never recovered from his injuries. He died one week n later that was the day and then baltimore and then the world that was the day the world would first learn of the name freddy gray. Host from your book five days of reckoning from the American City you right there were reasons freddys death was different that it so quickly turned into a galvanizing moment portions of his final moments were caught on camera with Police Encounters is commonplace now but in 2015 coincided with the emergence of smart phones and social media as a tool of citizen journals. So what made it that even know who he was or his name there wasnt just freddy gray. There was chris brown and a similar situation and where you have the unequal distribution of force and then he loses his life. So what was different about fright on freddy why did he trigger this . Because what we cannot underestimate those like the other ones i have made is the idea particularly when your word. It becomes much morere complicated. But when we watch this live from what actually happened. But the second thing that makes his story different is the context that this group of black lives matter and then to watch this dynamic and was founded by three black women in response to what happened to trey von martin. That we have to be able to aremind this country that its not about black lives matter anymore and that you cannot take out our lives with impunity. So now you saw this that went from a that is now a Global Movement to immobilize quickly in different areas. And then to position these things and having those families than having to fend for themselves what to have a real level of attention and focus and so for freddy gray that now we have camera footage of him and his last moments of him being dragged. Into the back of a police van and also had a movement called black lives matter too make sure that we just dont understand the name walter scott and sean bell and eric gardner. And freddy gray. And just to know j their names for the fact we have to scream and she and their names and those differences with freddy gray in a his situation. Host back to five days freddy gray and so many others like him and that permeates everything. And that probability when he was exactly where he was in aprh , 2015 and then again april 27 and 2015. In fact the odds were stacked against him generations before he was born. When we make arguments about freddy and with the Police Officers new and that is the mostne heartbreaking thing and then to protect him. But freddy was your constituent to. And not just in his death but in his life. Is a part of that conversation of how did freddy die in those are all important conversations that we have to contend with and then to understand what happened on the day that he died. Its important we understand the tragedy and then the tragedy in the first 25 years. That he was born underweight, premature and addicted to heroin. His mother who battled addiction for most of herho life that she cannot read or write. But then when he finally gained enough weight to make to leave the hospital they moved into a Housing Project with his twin sister. This Housing Project has been moved they were actually cited in a civil lawsuit in 2009 because of the endemic levels of lead. We have known it is a neurotoxin for over a a century. Now to have six microbes of lead they will have permanent damage for the remainder of theirr life. Freddy gray had 36 and premature and underway and addicted to heroin and by that time in his life he is two years old. Freddy gray never had a chance. So the last day in school in the tenth grade and only 19 years y old and look at the facts special education classes his entire academic career because of leadbe poisoning and then to make up for things that frankly of the neurological that nobody had anything to do with that at every single interaction not just policing but also the educational system. That could not help him but each in their own individuall way did damage to him. So as a Larger Society and then to contend with. For everyone that touched his life. It was the fact that freddy could have died 100 times before he made eye contact. And it was the fact the most peaceful weekend his life was the week he was in a coma. Because he was surrounded by doctors and w nurses. And surrounded by lawyers and activists. But then the city who cared if he lived or died. And in those 25 years prior that was the case. Ti have to be able to seek and demand justice and thats a justice that cannot be excluded from Environmental Justice and Health Justice and all the other justice mechanisms that completely alluded freddys entire life. Host are color from Fort Lauderdale you are on the air. Caller same i thank you for taking myy call. I am very impressed with the articulation. I was born in getting a good education that was paramount in her Family Living in new jersey. My sister and i to go to Parochial School made a huge difference in our lives. But with classical literature and music on the arts andic jazz and science programs on pbs so what can be done to put experiences like i had into poorer neighborhoods like scholarships the science programs to be brought into the schools . Thank you. So what youre asking is how to make education allencompassing experience not just about the writing and reading and arithmetic but how do we make it a truly holistic experience of life long learning that makes life interesting. So i love the frame you what right now what we are seeing it was before covid19 but also post covid19 where we have watched this and absently exploded if you think what we have spent time on my county make sure they are coming in knowing letters and numbers and that will help them deal with the pathway with elementary in pre k what is it that you need . If i teach too fast i could lose a kid if i teach to slow always those that are. Is a very big deal because and they cant learn. And so we know that gap that exists between june anddtw september they are not able to have those mechanisms so what happens in that situation when students are not in the classroom since february and during this time a virtual education. And then education in a different kind of way how they will introduce these experiences that happens for certain students because certain instructors can introduce it but they dont have to be exceptional. A powerful one because it does force usua to think through how can we use this moment so all the things youve got them all the things i got when i had teachers and instructors that took me and helped me understand how the Constitutional Congress worked andnd to explain that toe or really try to understand the things that made life so interesting and helped, how can we make that a part of our core focus for all of our students particularly atr this time when Everything Else in the educational framework is being upended that becomes our Bigger Mission but its something that has to be done if we are going to address this in a proper fashion. Host the question made me start thinking about the difference between how she discussed her parents and their activism inwe her education and freddie grays mother. Guest we have to understand you are guardians there is an important and crucial role that they are going to play in their childs educational aspirations. I am not at all lost on me the fact that my mother was an active parent in terms of what kids were learning. I know that my grandmother was a schoolteacher said she was active and very clear what type of things that students should and should not do. I also know that for kids that are coming up where the parents dont necessarily have their parents have approached it we cannot punish them for that. We then have to think about the systems and how we build structures to make sure that even if it isnt something that a child is getting its still something that they are getting structurally because i think about it where when we talk about prevention often times there can be a blame game that takess place but its the parens fault. Ive been working with students and families now for a decade and heres one thing i can tell you the vast majority of parents its not that theyor dont care its just for a lot of parents they either dont know or for a lot of parents its hard because it is complicated and challenging when you are trying to work three different jobs picking up 14 hours of your day and still living below the poverty line and you are going to need help. You will need the same kind of help and support. My mother got her first job that gavee her benefits when i was 14yearsold. My mother got her first job that allowed her to work one job and mothballed jobs when i was 14. My mother got her first job that gave reliable hours when i was 14. At the same time she was also living with my grandparents in helping them. But my grandparents gave a real and significant amount of support and my mom will always credit them and say if it were not for them i dont know what i would have done raising my three kids. And so its not that parents dont care, its that for many parents, they dont know or they dont have the resources so with that hellan do we make sure that both nicole got and what i got, how do we institutionalize that to make sure that its not just the greats of their situation that allowed you to have a pathway the fact that you are a member of our society therefore our society should really be thinking about how can we create infrastructures in places that are giving kids a chance, that are creating a platform and opportunity in addition to these co ambition to meet each other because we dont have that now. We still have a framework that is based on luck and having that infrastructure or that support but frankly i know i didnt ask for but i know i would be blessed to receive. But that cant be enough and thats how i think about in this moment we shouldd be thinking about how we are going to reshape all of this. Host if you cant get through on the phone lines and still have a question or comment we will go through the social media site. Windsor will maryland good afternoon you moron with author wes moore. Caller hello, mr. Wes moore. The last chapters is what comes into everything and i dont see how you eliminate luck from the world and humans. Bill clinton was lucky. It comes into everything and when you say conditions, i agree 100 , but you seem to be going with we must have a Perfect World in order for a person to have the object of doing the right thing and i think that is a little far out. Ive got something to say about freddie gray. You are wrong when you say it is probable cause for arresting. There was no crime by him or anybody else. They were doing their thing. Forget about his social problems, all the problems heng had. They had no right to arrest him. One other thing about block, there was here in omaha a good citizen that called the police, he sees a young black man holding what appeared to be an ak47. The clerk isnt there. There are no people around anywhere. She tells the police it looks like weke have a mad gunman randomly firing shots at people and youve got to get over there and check it out. They come to the store. The clerk who is back there giving the boy received, hes ret there and they come in and pull their guns and the gentleman, the young black kid thinks obviously these white cops think im stealing this done. He goes for his wallet and they think hes going to kill them. Ive got a credit card and receive c host we need to bring this to a conclusion. Caller here it is. [inaudible] it was a tragedy but that was bad luck. The cops did nothing on host can you very briefly give a quick glands of your life story . Caller born in south carolina. Sort of rough down there. I graduated high school. I was in the military not in vietnam during vietnam. I went to morgan state. I then went to the university of maryland law school. I passed the bar. I was with the public of baltimore approximately ten years. I went for approximately ten years and went to [inaudible] Baltimore City until 2011. Host we will have to leave it there. Thank you for that information. Guest first, my wife is a fellow [inaudible] and thinking about the work that you did, some of the work i did even prior to theop work now was the actually n launched an initiative working with juvenile centers and it was a huge part so thank you for that and for the lifetime that youve given to the work. You brought up the point about the conditions having to be perfect for people to be able to make it through. The obvious answer is no, but the thing we also know is the conditions cannot be stacked against you either. If you look at what exists right now. It increases lifetime earnings by nearly 1 million. Yet the Research Also shows College Graduates were less likely [inaudible] if you take a look at this idea, like new yorkers are two times likely than their white counterparts, 39 versus 19. 70 of lowwage workers that are called to stand at the front lines during covid19 are people of color. The point is when we are talking about the conditions of our existing for people, we also cannot underestimate the role that race plays in those conditions and the fact that if we do have a framework where we can say listen, if everyone is willing to work hard they should have the opportunity to succeed. All that is right and all that is true but the reality is we are still making the curve, making that curve for many people and almost intentionally so making it unnecessarily high. So thats the thing that we, you, i. , all of us want to battle against him should be battling against. Its this idea about i dont think it needs to be perfect, but it needs to be fair and right now it is not fair. Host Brian Montgomery alabama please go ahead with your question or comment. Caller thank you for taking my call. Host are you with us faqs caller hello . Host please go ahead. Were listening. Caller im enjoying the conversation. I just wanted to make a comment about the context. For instance about freddie gray, but you did is demonstrate black lives matter when you doo that. You [inaudible] how can we actually do better . That is related to the societal context. Host wes moore . Guest great question. Its interesting. It goes back in some ways to michaels question. One of the first things we have to do to add context of sad truth. We as a Large Society have a difficult time dealing with the issue of truth and i think when people say it is one of the trickiest issues in our society, disagree. Its not one of the trickiest, it is the trickiest when you think about the history of this country. The factbo and reality that this country was founded on a racial hierarchy. The fact that this country did have andt was founded on some land with strong labor. The fact that we have had a history of systemic challenges but again did not end with slavery but eventually immediately went into the construction and jim crow and mass incarceration. But now all of these things have provided a context that we have to be able to understand. Thatbut when the founding docus were first put together and as beautiful as they were structured, they did not include everyone. There have to be a collective Movement Towards this idea of doctor king talks about. The bending of the b moral arc. There also has to be an understanding of a couple different things. One is how and who was responsible for so much and also this idea that it doesnt then automatically. It bends because people were pulling it towards justice. People of all types in this countrys history so when we talk about things like context, that means how do we address things like curriculum. Going back to the point of education, that when we talk about the history of things its important that that moves into our curriculum and to understand one of the most important things that happened to me was i began to appreciate the history of this country. I then began to understand when people would say hell did you put your life on the line for this country and served for one of the most easily and say i wouldnt do it again if i had the opportunity to invite you to do it because i love this country, but loving this country doesnt mean lying about it. Loving this country means being able to understand what does make it so powerful inin the fit place and names such as baldwin and hughes and parks and carmichael, these are names that are just as important to the framework and the build of the nations history and any other names and so its important not just africanamerican children understand this but its important all children understand this and all children understand the many people that have toiled to make this country better at everything will turn when we had the chance to make a decision that we move towards that in a very deliberative fashion because there were people whoho looked like every single shade were able to mak ma fight and make progress and that my ancestors should be eliminated or minimized in that conversation. The other thing i know is when we are talking about context and again, really important question about context because it also means understanding ofo the history of the only time we have had major movements that have had a Sustainable Impact is when it wasnt just the impact of the communities fighting for justice for the impacted communities. Whether we are talking about the civil rights movement, whether twe are talking about the antiapartheid movement, part of the reason it was as effective as it was is because it wasnt just the point tha of this black south africans standing up saying this is unjust and theres no way we can allow a system like this to exist. Part of the reason we had the movement for marriage equal to the it didnt just have to be these friends who were demanding and chanting that love is love. Part of the reason we were able to see the movement now is we can add context to the humanity and its just simply about the fact what we are seeing right now sometimes it isnt as simple as people want to lay it out to be. Understanding the full tradition of our history and why we are in the places the we are right nowd the fact the reason that we have this market level of poverty that we see wasnt an intentional act and when people say people in poverty should just work harder for poverty is a choice, my answer to them is this, poverty is a choice but its not a choice of the people impacted by poverty or a choice of the people that are feeling the weight of poverty. People dont wake up in the morning and say i love eating in poverty. Ov its a choice of our society and how much pain we are willing to endure. Your question is a good one in terms of how we think about this because the context matters when we are creatingen policy. Context matters when we are deciding what justice means and elooks like. Context matters if we are going to truly honor and try to protect not just the intent of the countrys founding fathers, but the words they put down, the words they stood by and said it would take pulling on this in order to make them real. Host nancy in los angeles. Caller good morning. Can you hear me . Host go ahead. Caller thank you for all you are doing and peter, you as well. My parents marched with folks that marched with Martin Luther king and i was fortunate i grew up in Corpus Christi texas. I was fortunate to have been raised in an environment where my siblings and i were required to take action if we saw an injustice. I look back at that and i see not everybody was raised in that kind of environment, and im so thankful that that is how it was for me because ive been an whole life. I have a goal to help enlighten my friends and others and want to know what white peoplee can do. People who know that racism is out of control and that theol change absolutely must occur. Peter asked you what the day in april meant to you and i didnt know because thereve been so many. I still havent gotten over trade bartend or emmett till and i didnt know about. Fullstop in 1921 until there was a miniseries that came out this year. No one that i knew had been taught that in school. It wasnt in the history books. So, what ive done this weekend earlier yesterday, ive made something im going to send an email to help enlighten folks. Do you know about the class divide, the blueeyed brown eyes experiment . Guest absolutely. Caller i thought that would be a start. Theres a documentary called the untold story ofar emmett till i think that its by keith boucher. I dont know if you know of that. Host what is your point on that . Caller what im wanting to know is what other documentaries, because i feel education is number one for folks that have context like you said, and i saw a documentary where James Baldwin said nothing can change onto lettuce face. I jotted down what he had said and i was wondering what could they watch, what can they read, what can they do to have a context and beld educated and te action but its volunteering, giving money, becoming more politically active host thank you very much. Lets hear from author wes vmoore. Guest such a beautiful question and also thank you for your own ability and leadership because i get a tremendous amount also to your parents because the fact that they were raised with having social injustice you are raised right. Im grateful for what they were talking about in this kind of challenge of racism because when on think about whats happening right now, we have seen genuine crisis thrown at the doorsteps, first was the introduction of a virus that had Catastrophic Health and Economic Impacts on our society. And togethe the other was in ond reminder unneeded reminder of the communities. But they exposed the same truths, the exact same truths that dealing with covid19 isnt about the discovery of a vaccine and dealing with an equitable policing or elimination of chokehold. Covid19 didnt just exposed the fact that while impacted everybody, it didnt impact everybody and Police Reform is necessary in all communities but what we saw with george floyd as the heartbreakingly mentioned, we saw someone who was handcuffed, facedown on the ground taking his final breaths because a grown man was nonchalantly putting his knee into his neck. So what we saw and what we are seeing in the protests taking place around the country this isnt just simply about policing reform, but its about racism and systemic racism and your point about racism and its impact is exactly right. People dont think racism is an act, like the person that said this or that goes to a rally that that person is racist, i get it, but it isnt just an act. It is a system, and a system that finds its way into movesm like water to all the other systems and changes the shape and changes their focus into their core, so part of the thing i love that you are talking about, its both about how we are dealing with education, how are we making sure that we are reading classics like here i stand by paul robeson, reading things and watching documentaries are able to add a level of exposure to these dynamics that take place but that it also cannot just simply be about how are we going to penetrate with a focus on being able to deal with systems in the understanding between Racial Justice and economic injustice and the fact that this doesnt have to be a binary conversation about this person gains into this person must lose. I think about this issue sometimes people will say i dont want to talk i about it ad therefore they say im getting canceled or whatever the case may be. I am pretty certain that in our time here ive probably said quite a few things that have offended quite ahi few people ad i know that i am not going to stop talking because that becomes a problem when we just stop talking aboustopped talkinr pretend like we can move on without having to do it. Nancy brought up a really important work in the question, is truth. We have had countries that have gone through and stared at their deepest roots but they know we cannot move on to a better place if we are not going to scare up some of the deepest wounds the society has faced like south africa and rwanda and Northern Ireland and chile and colombia and canada, twice. Countries that have gone through the truth and reconciliation process where they have been able to say we have to be able to examine the things that continue to show themselves in our society if we are going to address it once and for all. Its activated the National Guard in the country 12 times. Ten of them have to do with race. Only twice had the president activated the National Guard when was the looting that took place at the postal worker strike in new york and the other was the looting that took place after a hurricane. The fact that youve had other countries that have been able to explore some of their deepest roots and be able to say the only way we can move forward is if it is a measure of truth is something that i believe is crucial that this country also goes through in our own process of federal, local, state and Institution Level to know our history and then think about how we move forward with an understanding of what our history actually is. Host wes moore mentioned paul robeson in his book here i stand. Every time an author is on, we ask him or her their favorite booof their favoritebook and why reading. Here i stand as one of wes moores favorite books along with the fabulous five and into the wild. And he is currently reading blogs when the words by danielle, which is about what . Guest its actually a powerful story when you think of that kinabout kind of the immign story, and i think about it in the context of what it means to define ourselves as american in this moment and members of the human race at the time when people are questioning the importance and the depth of what that means, and one of the reasons i love the story and even some of the other things is because i am a datadriven person, i really like the analysis and statistics. This is something that i kind of learned from my publishers as well where when i was writing the other wes moore i wanted to turn him into [inaudible] this is years ago before we have our beautiful children and i asked him what he thought and he said to me im going to be honest with you that sounds interesting and all that no one wants to read a parenting book by a 30yearold with no children. [laughter] it was a good point. Sometimes statistics can add context of stories promote action and what is it exactly that you are trying to do with your work and for me the honest answer is both. Its both too provide context but also to promote action. Thats why i think that there is a beautiful and masterful job knowing if you can make a person connected with a person you are reading about you then are going to have something to fight for because when you know what you are fighting for and particularly from you are fighting for, you will never stop fighting and thats what these job they could accept on the job ohimthe job of doing. Host subtitle of the book is searching for a lifee that matters. Heres an email up there by baltimore. Im wondering if you and tama hasse know each other or have talked together of all that is baltimore and Structural Racism . Guest for those that dont know, hes another one, very proud. If author still very active in baltimore and a person i know i look to and ind admire deeply in addition to mr. Coates, his son. We have had a chance to speak a lot about the city where the city is and where it is going and why the city is the way that it is. Known for all of his remarkable books i think Tony Morrison was saying before that she thinks hes basically our version of James Baldwin which i dont think you can get a higher compliment to. If you read a beautiful struggle that is another one that i would recommend to you if you want to understand baltimores history of complications and why people are so very proud of the city of baltimore, so im thankful that he continues to drive me into so many others an it is still very firmly committed to the city, very much firmly committed to the state in the way that i am in a way that we know can and should and will be better. Host you mentioned his father paul is a publisher if you go to booktv. Org and go to the video library, we took a tour of his publishing plans and talked about some of the books he publishes. You can go to booktv. Org, type in paul coates and you can watch the tour. Next call comes from marjorie go ahead you are on tv. Caller thank you so much. You are the answer to a prayer. Im telling you, youve got it down pat. I want to thank you so much for having the nerve and the tenacity to say the things you say. Its all about the community and not understanding where we come from, how we got here and how we get out of here. Blacklight is better. John lewis [inaudible] you are al old answer to how we move forward. I want to know do you travel because right now im working with the superintendent of schools in the county and im going to tell them tomorrow they need to bring you here to talk for a couple of days because that is what they are working on. Host before we get an answer, tell us about w yoursel. Caller we need to know the truth, youve got to know the truth so first tommy i know you want me to answer your question this is my question, do you travel, i just need you to get here. Host we will get an answer to that tell us about your self a little bit. Caller i didnt hear a word you said. I am so sorry. Host we will get an answer. What is your answer for marjorie . Guest you have no idea how you have just filled me up more than youl know. I hear it in your voice. Im thankful for the work that they were dointheywere doing fof the community. You have no idea how much youve filled me up this morning. In answer to your question i would love to and one o have one joys that ioy have had is spendg time with students and our teachers and leaders and people who are the ones who are shaping our society for the answer is yes and i would absolutely love to come spend time with you. Your comment to me wasnt just incredibly humbling but it was you know i think one of the most important things that happened toto me was once i got a chanceo know my truth and by history, i didnt know that everywhere i am unfair because it was written. I knew there were people that were willing to fight for me and advocate for me and i include my mother and grandparents, but i also know there were people who woke up every morning and never even know who i was and i will never know their name and they may nevere know my but they woke up every morning with a hope and that drives me the fact i can and should be proud of my history. I sometimes will tell people ten they say things like i dont see color. And i tell people not only do i believe that is not true i believe that also isnt the goal. When people say to me i dont see color, what im hearing is i dont see your blackness. Thats something to be ashamed of as if it is something to be ashamed of and im not. I am so thankful for the people who look just like me and software for hope of me. I stand here knowing every room im in, im there because i belong there. I am not in any room because of a social experiment. I am not in any room because of someones benevolence or someones kindness. Im not inn any room because someone wants to prove a point. Im there because i belong there aand im there because the room would be incomplete if i wasnt. Thats what i want all of our children to understand, that they are walking in their beauty as they are. Walking in their greatness. They are walking in their destiny as they are, they are walking in a sense of hope that there are people and angels surrounding them every single day that might not even know their name, but the another potential and that is what they fight for some this marjorie, you filled me up this morning. Thank you. Host tony is in the bronx. Caller good afternoon. Thank you very t much you are a very educated young man. I want too say also you mentiond about your mother but its also important about your father. Im 58 and ive been in relationships i dont have any children or a wife, but ive been in relationships that i tried to explain to a woman you truly do need a father in your life is not juslives not just tr because that hurts the children also when they dont have a father to guide them. I learned 50 years ago that its a breakdown of the family and thats very sad because you have a lot of young men out here. I lived in new york all my life and you have a lot of young men rt here trying to do the right thing but sometimes they dont have the guidance of a black man so i have been in relationships i have two sisters and mother god bless her. But my experience in my life is when you have a black woman that breaks down the black man, they dont want the black man to be the black man and a family host i think we got a lot there on the table. Table. Lets hear from wes moore. T guest thank you. Its great to hear your voice. Its interesting i think about this in, context of sometimes people say is there anything from the other wes moore that didnt make it that you wish would. The only answer i can really think ofk this one thing and tht is when a visiting iraq something to your father because im going to try to find them. I have two memories of my father and he has three memories of his father. The last one when he was about 13yearsold and saw his father laying on the couch and he asked who he was because his father was a drunk and had no relationship with him. He said can you find me correct a letter to your father. So he sent me a letter about five pages long and it was the most fascinating mix of love and support and empathy and apathy and hatred that youve eve you r read in one letter. And it was fascinating to me because i thought about where, and i should have to show it to my publisher he said did you do with and i said what and he said have you written a letter to your father and i said no. He said you shouldnt ask him to do something you are not going g to do your self so i went down to his gravesite and i sat there with a pad and a pen and i started writing, just delete everything on my mind and i shook my publisher that and he said to me im going to be honest with you [inaudible] the point i think we both struggle with something complicated and we both wrestle with this absence and this whole and avoid. My father was a special man from everything ive heard from family, his friends, that he was a good friend, a good husband, a good man. I think about that in context when he says listen, our fathers couldnt be there for Different Reasons and therefore we mourn their absence in different ways and hes absolutely right, but the reality is your point is the right one, that regardless of wy the void is there, its real and we have to be able to lift up and celebrate not just how powerful in terms of serving as dysfunctional glue in our society but also we have to stop doing damage and continuing to put out a lot of false negatives about things we are seeing among black men and women. The reality is we still have policies in place for keeping people frothat arekeeping peoplg engaged with family members. When we talk about a kick of the mass incarceration, that is just one element. We have multiple books telling people you can reintegrate with your family but remember they are in public housing. You cant come or they will be asked to leave public housing. The fact that they have so many restrictions when it comes to everything from telegrams and who qualifies to Child Support payments and incentives and disincentives. We need to think about what it is we want from our society. We want engagements. We also need to stop making it so complicated and difficult and think about it from a truly holistic process where we are able to bring a lot of voices and perspectives. This is useful or helpful for anybody and i think about it right now in the context of my children who i adore and the fact is they have a wonderful mother and we have a very unified front but also how difficult it was for my mom and how difficult it must have been for so many other moms were single dads out there that have to do that on their own, creating a level of supportt is important and those structures to be able to make those things real. Host don is mentioned also in your book. When we taped an interview with you earlier about your most drecent book five days one of your sons got into the picture but unfortunately we cut that out and i wish that we had left it in because he had come zipping through the office to visit you. Guest he does, too and one thing that i will say one goes back to ms. Marjories point, black kids are allowed everywhere. I can have meetings with anybody and out of nowhere my son or daughter enters into the frame but i always let them know you are welcome everywhere so even if they happen to pop in just know i am okay with it. Host we would love to see them. Steve in gaithersburg maryland, go ahead. Caller guess, good afternoon. Im just wondering, you gave some pretty good i context about freddie gray and his background where probably most peopleha wouldnt have been interested in knowing if you would comment on black lives Matter Organization and people destroying society, families especially in the police in the freddie gray case were acquitted. If you have time and are interested to comment on the governors book dealing with the riots. Guest when black lives matter pulled together especially having known the three women that started the organization into the store to begin not just with an acknowledgment by the fear of what we are seeing about the wee treatment for black lives and the lack of accountability, you bring up an important point where even in the two years prior, there were other names and often times the things people saw something would have been and then it would go away. There is actually a misconception people have that kind of calm everything down and this goes back to the part of governor hogan. With calm everything down is when larry called in the National Guard and thats what brought the temperature down. Thats not true. What brought everything down in baltimore at the time i say this as someone that has worn a uniform sometimes when you dress for conflict, conflict actually happens but here is what i do know what did bring the temperature down is when the attorneys, when she pressed charges against those officers because baltimore was shocked. It was the first time in history that that had been done to. You had charges being filed and it was almost like a celebratory toenvironment. Peopleeo were shocked. Two of the officers were found not guilty. I think that is an important thing to note because that is what changed is when people thought at the moment that there might be accountability for what they were seeing and the department of justice even showed a pattern and practice. That is one of the things that is different about what we are seeing with george floyd. At the bar before but this idea of th indictment but now its rn where the protests have continued because it is about much more than just an indictment. Its also about a conviction. Your point about the governors book, when he did describe freddy Judaica Freddie gray as a drug dealer with a long criminal record sheet, the reality is i studied into this along with a journalist, reporter, not just a good friend a great reporter that collaborated with th the obvious but comfortable there was no evidence that he had any gang connections. Second, for the governor to be able to make a continuation like that, hes gone and he cant defend his own character. The governor had seemed to forgotten in the context, the governor seems to have either forgotten or doesnt recognizee the fact that he was his constituents, too and so it was lost and inevitable result of the accumulation of the societal failure, policy failure, leadership failure and so when people say when the governor says in the book people shouldnt confuse the freddie gray with a singer in a church choir, i dont. I also know he never had a shot and i think that is the distinction that is important to be able to call and push back. Its important to be able to call about what is the take away from those moments and what should we as a society do to be able to rethink that to make sure that these things dont have to keep happening and we dont have to continue adding names of also having frustration to an already complicated situation. Host the heritage reports about a report that 22 trillion had been spent on the war on poverty since lbj founded and the poverty rate is still about the same as it was in 1967 and then i want you to respond to this text that we have received pleasthese address how governmet welfare enslaves people and leads to progress incentives and wifes decisions and dependence on the government check instead of selfreliance. Host guest you are absolutely right we have had this war on poverty that has gone on. The war means you are willing to dispose of a single tool and assets to your ability to win. We have not bee done that with poverty and the reality is that is not an indictment on a political party, its not an indictment on an administration. I can show inconsistent policies that we have had that put people and kept people in poverty and the reality is we do have policies we could and should be thinking about. We have policies we should be re crafting because the policy positions matter in moments like now and one challenge i would make with a comment of what we talked about with the welfare system and desensitizing some of the reality is we have watched over the past 11 weeks, we saw the job growth gone. The reality is that 23 of lost their jobs or people who were living in poverty even before covid19. This was the working poor, people who are working jobs, in many cases multiple jobs and still are not living above the poverty line. The reality is if you just take a look at new york city alone, half of new yorkers lived in poverty for at least a year over the past four years before covid19, half the city. Not half of the borough where the demographic that half of the city was living in poverty for at least a year over the past four years. This Research Done with columbia university. So, when you are talking about these kind of dynamics and you have a situation where half of the cities have been living in poverty but you still have unemployment around 4 , theres a massive disconnect here and so when we are talking about policies and ways to be able to support families, here are some policy recommendations we can do to be able to address some of the things you are speaking about and at the same time know that we are going to benefit the population and particularly the most vulnerable. We talk about things like hell o we continue to expand Unemployment Insurance benefits, because it is necessary now more than its ever been before. How do we make permanent the expansionef of the earned income tax credits to include childless adults and ho how do we think at the basic adjustments to the Child Tax Credit and increase benefits amounts for those with economic downturns . This becomes important because these are things that could actually end of the poverty and almost particularly incredible times it doesnt mean when we are creating support for people that somehow they are handouts creating support for longterm success in the ability to be able to make it through with a downturn that they have nothing to do with. If becomes the most effective way that we can think about the resource is when it comes to how we are going to i come out with Unemployment Insurance for every dollar of Unemployment Insurance that comes in we get about 1. 80 back into the economy. Theres ways to leverage this but we have to be thoughtful and deliberate about that. Host destiny in wisconsin, we have 30 seconds for you in a 32nd answer from wes moore. Go ahead. Caller hello, thank you so much. I am a Firm Believer that when we make peopleou feel heard and feel like they matter, great things happen and we are going to change. With elected officials breaking the law they are supposed to uphold with Voter Suppression if gentrification, my question to you is to what extent does power or the lack thereof affects every i individual . Host only 30 seconds for a big question there. Guest it is a good question. Thank you for that. Itsth everything because even when we are talking about policies in place and the role of what has to be done, its not just about how can we provide support, its about how we actually share in the power and autonomy. But we are not here to save people. People do not need saving. Wewe are removing barriers so te big question, the power, autonomy and freedom have got to be Guiding Principles in the way we are thinking about our policies, philanthropy and work going forward. Host wes moore has been our guest for the last two hours on booktv. We appreciate your time, calls and texts