Of 2017, and so i tide that for 13 months before general sessions resigned. Abruptly on the day after the election of 2018 and the president appointed me that day to be acting attorney general and ultimately bridge the gap between Jeff Sessions and bill barr. Host how did you become Jeff Sessions chief of staff. Were you a friend. Guest yes. Talk about hough i only met Jeff Sessions once before i was selected to be his chief of staff. He was i interviewed with him and talked to him many times but it was mutual friend in the white house and at the federal society that had recommended me to him and his people, and we bonded quickly over College Football and our love for good barbecue. So it was a match made in heaven. Host one thing you say aboutmer sessions are p recusal the russia investigation it was personal and factdriven. Guest yeah. I wasnt there when he did the analysis. He took over in february of 2017 after he was confirmed, and after the new administration came in, but having done sort of my own recusal analysis it took five weeks for me and my staff and the department of justice to complete, it is very factdriven. It is very personal decision. Kind of how its done, methodical and i know that general sessions had been very outspoken that he believes he tide the right thing and all i can too and what i describe in this book is how it affected or work at the department of justice and how created kind of two Power Centers at the department of justice. The Attorney Generals Office and you have deputy Attorney Generals Office who for the purposes of the Mueller Investigation was the acting attorney general. So just very difficult to operate in that environment as you can imagine, but also when i was appointed acting attorney general, return to regular order in a normal chain of command like the department is used to. Host and in your book, you write that every american, regardless of personal politics, should be concerned by what i saw happen to President Donald Trump inside the u. S. Department of justice, between 2017 and 2019. What did you see . Guest well, i saw so many things. What i primarily saw was a attempt of justice that at its best was a force for good and for law and order and doing justice, and at its worst was a department that when it didnt follow regular order was not probably predicating investigation is, was glossing over fundamental practices of investigations. For example when there was no evidence or counterevidence was developed, they continued to go down a path and investigate crimes that ultimately as wi saw in the Mueller Report for example, were never established and never was any evidence that supported those investigations. So, again, think one of the reason its wrote this book was to remind professionals at the department of justice, prosecutors especially but also investigative agents, that we need to do always do the right thing for the right reason and follow the time honored practices that have put the department of justice in its place n society and have been unfortunately kind of hurt by these recent chapters that we saw at the department of justice. By no moans i would suggest in any become doesnt try to make the case that somehow this was all people and every investigation. Quite frankly, one reason i wrote this become was to highlight the important work of the great men and women of the department of justice, 110,000 professionals and almost all of them do things the right way without acclaim, and kind of make our country better because theyre involved in the criminal justice system. Host but one of the recuring themes in your book, above the law, is this, quote what berted me most were those member of the executive branch who put their own interests above those of the president. Can you give some examples of that . Guest yeah. I think one example i think is one were all pretty familiar with and that is how jim comey conducted the fbi and how he and members of his senior staff were often times shaping stories in the media. A theres a lot of evidence on the Public Record now of how leaks were made to correct storied that were inaccurate or representations another person, andy mccabe, who leak the story how he conferenced the Deputy Attorney general in the Obama Administration regarding the an investigation. So all that was all sourced from him through lisa page, and i just think theres those examples and other examples of where i really believe that one of the ways we got off the path at the department of justice and at the fbi was individuals putting themselves in their own reputations ahead of the somes of the executive branch, and the he when insay the interests the executive branch i mean the constitutional interest that make our constitutional sim so balanced and work on an everyday basis. Too you believe that theres a deep state . Guest i would have to save i think there are those individuals within the permanent bureaucracy, theyre career officials, that do not believe that in the president s agenda again, its a lawful and ethical agenda and they resisted, small r resisted the implement indication of that agenda. And the nomenclature whether they quoteunquote deep state is kind of for others to decide how to define it. What i saw is i saw people that were not only working against the president s agenda as the head of the executive branch, but those that were unwilling to advance the president s agenda, and it is my point when i say in the back is those people, if they really believed that they cannot accomplish or support the president s agenda, thats as long is a its lawful and ethical which it is, they should run for president based on the world view and i think the president s priorities that we saw at the department of justice were lawful and ethical and everybody that is in the executive branch because of another thing i talk pull out in the book, the unitary executive theory, everybody should pull in the same direction, and i am surprised at controversial as it is but ultimately the American People through the Electoral College elect the president and those president s are entitled to implement their agenda. Host you describe the attitude of some of those people at doj, they view donald trump as a quoteunquote, taping rouse interloper. Host noaa yes, they viewed self of news that way. View it as outsiders, those that are not of washington and of this, i guess, elite world. But this is the beauty of our system in the United States, is that people with good ideas can come to washington, dc, can win elects and try advance the priorities, and i you can tell from the way i describe it, i believe so much in the system and i believe in america and not just sort of the elites that are in our major cities, like washington, dc and new york and other places, but all of us. Were all a part of it and i think one thing that donald trump did, which surprised a lot of people he gave voice to a lot of people that felt forgotten, people from places like where im from, des moines, iowa, where its flyover country, where you really believe that the coastal elites dont understand why you value your way of life, like having a film your backyard and having sort oft above ground pool and target shooting, those kind of things we celebrity and do in places like iowa where im from. Host mr. Whitaker, were you prepared for the media when you came into the acting ad position . Guest im not sure i could have ever expected the attention and the suddenness with which i was thrust on the National Stage. I was ready for the job. I had dump 13 done 13 months a chief of staff to the attorney general. I knew he the department of justice worked and had relationships in the exec afternoon had been a u. S. Attorney for knife and a half year i knew the department of justice very well and its mission and its people. But the media was even though i had been a contributor on cnn and thought that i knew how the media covered stories i was not ready of the amount of reporters following the stories and their insailor desire for new angles, knew breaking news, and just how bitterly partisan it had become, and i do continue to believe that the mission of the department of justice is not political, it is to do justice in every case, and at the same time i would have to say i was surprised by the media spotlight that was that befell me when i became acting attorney general. Host operationally, when the attorney general recused himself from the russia investigation, how does that work in doj and how were you kept up to date on developments . Guest well, i wasnt. Once i became chief of staff to attorney general sessions, the whole office of attorney general is called, oad was recruised at well. So all i knew put the Russian Investigation is what i saw on tv and every night after work i would be subjected to if i wanted to if i cared to watch the news. So i didnt learn anything pout the actual investigation until after i became acting attorney general. Host and when you bill acting, were you briefed into the full investigation at that point by Rod Rosenstein. I was others but not immediate. This is one thing i think we alled in to appreciate about we all need to appreciate about the moment in time i was smart enough to know that if if wanted to it could dominant any every waking moment and there was so much work we are we doing. Obviously the highest profile work we were doing and so much other work so i fraught a u. S. Straight attorney from california, greg scott, kind of a great individual with a ton of experience, not only an elected county da and twotime u. S. Attorney in the Bush Administration with me and now returned in this administration to do it again because he enindividual it so much and was the perfect person to come and and i put him in as my eyes and ears and made him responsible on my behalf to manage expect interact with the mueller team because i knew i could not for various ropes and special live because i didnt want to put that amount of time and attention with Everything Else we had to do and the priorities we had issue needed help and i brought him in to help. Host whats your impression of and interactions with Rod Rosenstein . Guest well, ive nope known the former Deputy Attorney general since 20042005 time frame when we came in as u. S. Attorneys so over a decade. And he has spent he had spent 30 years in the department of justice, an impressive resume and impressive educational background and a lot of experience in the department of justice, and i described in this back kind of my impressions on him. I think the American People saw him again on a National Stage in the hearings last week, and i think he is i dont think theres any doubt that he would say he was doing the best he could in a difficult circumstance. Obviously i have in the book a lot of questions for him especially the decisions he made along the way before i was ever at the department of justice. Host what is the period on this whole thing . Now, judge sullivan that john gleeson investigating the department of justices view on this. When does it end . Guest thats a great question. I think when it ends is when we really have a full accounting of this period of time, and i as i watch sort of the various pieces and parts, whether its the Mueller Investigation, the Senate Issuing new subpoenas to get to at the bottom of it, i think everywhere i go and travel, the first thing folks ask me is, when will anybody be held accountable for this . There are obviously so much of life depends on whether youre cheer fog red team or the blue team. Thats very unfortunately. One thing i try to do is step back and say, kind of if youre a law and order fairmined supporter of justice, then you want certain answers to these questions. So that we can learn the less union think general barr was talking about thats this week, how to some extent the job of the attorney general is to figure out what happened and to make sure it doesnt happen again. So, i think i dont certainly this will be around through the summer. I think john durhams report will be very important. I think what Lindsey Graham is doing in the senate is going to be very important and everyone i think ultimately has to come to their open own conclusions because fairness and objectivity seems to have left our society sometime around 2016. Host and devin nunes wrote the forward to your book. Guest he did and one thing that when we book came out a couple weeks ago, devin nunes pointed out a very important fact that i knew at the moment i was appointed but not sure i articulate it as well as he did and i found myself in this obstruction of justice trap, that was set because really if you look at every moment in time, whether it was in january of 2017 when before thank you Mueller Investigation happened when it was crossfire hurricane, there was no evidence of the collusion theory. You look at sort of the text between strzok and page, the fbi agent and lawyer, they suggest there was no big there there was the text. You look at the Mueller Investigation itself, did not find any relationship between nip from the campaign and the russian get. What we found ourselveses in including myself was an obstruction of justice trap set looking for anyone to interfere with the sort of conduct of the investigation, what became the Mueller Investigation, and i sensed that. Im not sure i articulated it but i send that was as soon as i got brief the first time. Mr. Whitaker, what are the rules that for independent counsel as opposed to a special counsel . Guest yeah. The the independent counsel statute expired in 1999, and thats what ken starr was appoint under famously and that was a statute, oversight of judges and separate from the department of justice and didnt really have a local for the executive branch. I think people saw what happened to bill clinton in the whitewater investigation and i think it was almost bipartisan agreement that we dont need that to happen again to the way it happened. And so in an attempt to not have the repeat of that, of the ken starr investigation, the department of justice passed a regulation that called the special counsel regulation and that governs what bob mueller was appointed, Pat Fitzgerald in the Scooter Libby prosecution was also appointed under that statute, i believe, and it has been used from time to time where the independence of the department of justice and executive branch, it could be put into question, and its a little its very discretionary but it puts protection in the firing of the special counsel, makes is sort of be for cause instead of just at the will of the discretion of the department of justice and ultimately the president. So it is something that i think is as i outline in the book unconstitutional and i think should be eliminate or dramatically reformed and i set out a couple of ways that could happen weapon have 93 u. S. Attorneys in the United States that all do their job every day with great discretion and great judgment, and i think an times, as you see both general sessions and general barr do is appointing u. S. Attorneys not only to continue to do their own job and to die dissecrete function in the department of justice to make sure that theres insulation and investigations and also to make sure that they continue to report 0 to and be part of the executive branch. Host i should have asked you this before with start but as the acting attorney general, do you get the horrific or the title of general whitaker as well . Guest people give that to me. I dont know if its something yusef but i have been called matt, matthew, hey you and been called general. So it was an honor of a lifetime to serve to this administration and serve as sacketting attorney general. One thing i dont get is a painting in the department of justice so thats that is certainly something that doesnt come with the office. Host okay. Matthew whitaker, was Robert Mueller well utilized . Guest i really think that what happened and one subject i talk about in the book with bob mueller is that we all saw with our own eyes him testify and i think there was a a lot of hopes and dreams put into his testimony, that would be would turn this sort of 400 plus page report into television event, bring to life and make a movie out of the become, and obviously we saw that he did not seem to have command of a lot of his investigation. Ive never i know that when i set s. A. T. To front the Judiciary Committee if i answered request question if i take your can he and then waited to another question responsible saying that statement, i think most people would have been baffled like we were. He is a leader, a marine, a decorated vietnam veteran, who has obviously served more than ten years in the fbi as its director, u. S. Attorney, has been he has done everything use do we attempt of justice with distinction. Said a lot of positive thing weapons he was appointed as special coup and i sill believe that today put i think he was taken advantage of by his staff. That product that is the Mueller Report is not a product that he wrote. Think it was written by people that wanted to score political points and too bat and its something i criticized in my book, and i think could have been done a different way and seem gratuitous. What did you learn but doj oversight of the fbi . Guest well, jude to say when i was the United States attorney before i ever came to washington, dc that the fbi was nominally part of the department of department of justice and i think one thing that Everyone Needs to make sure we do and continue to do is to have the fbi director follow the proper reporting mechanisms because it is not an independent branch of the executive branch or the department of justice and there is a main of command. I think especially jim comey i dont talk but this in the book i do think jim comey really tried to make the fbi independent from the executive branch and the department of justice and i think it was a really tension. You can see that in the anonymous reports and stories that came out during the Obama Administration as to how jim was kind of running his own play and fame newsily manifest in the kind of what he did with Hillary Clintons case, where he did not follow regular order and he announced really kind of a declination we never announce declinations and explain the evidence we found and characterize the evidence but thats what he did in the Hillary Clinton email situation much to the surprise and disappointment of his bosses, both the Deputy Attorney general and the attorney general the n the Obama Administration. That is one kind of very public way that i think his push to make the fbi more independent from the department of justice and the executive branch was a complete and utter disaster. Host one of the things you complete your book is the fact that former attorney general eric holder called him republicans wing man it and is important to have an attorney general you can rely on. Is that correct. Guest yeah. I think theres a lot more to that. I think the interesting thing as i look at the criticism when holder said that there was the media and in addition to the way we have always treated the jfkrfk relationship was of course the president should have an attorney general he had complete confidence in. Seems to be only attorney general that are republican and four republican president s. All attorney generals need to follow the law and do things consistent with the law and the policies of the department of justice i continue to be surprised general holder i think that the president needs to have absolute confidence in the attorney general matthew whitaker, a near book above the law you write i would argue that holders above the law moral grandstanding is largely responsible for the socalled ferguson effect with 72 percent of Police Officers more reluctant to stop and question some people than they were in 2014 according to pew research. I place a lot of the responsibility of what happened in policing in the major cities after ferguson and other situations into the pullback of the police when i think jim comey termed the ferguson effect. We are seeing some of this manifest out in our major cities and i think its an overall conversation that continues to be had at the house to the Police Protect and serve the communities and at the same time have the confidence of those communities. I think some of these voices that im hearing has made me think about my experience at the department of justice. For 5. 5 years of the u. S. Attorney i work closely with state and local police. I think general ashcroft, personal hero of mine said it best that well done policing enhances freedom and liberty. Thats where we need to get to. We need to find a model in a way that policing in any major city in every small town places where im from in ankeny iowa, its done the right way so the community has confidence in that policing. You know what hurts the most is when the police pullback are the minority communities. Thats the conversation we need to continue to have. President trump called for an expedited investigation to what happened in minneapolis to mr. Floyd. What exactly is the attorney generals role on Something Like that happens. The attorney general through the Civil Rights Division at the department of justice obviously has a big role when it comes to excessive use of force its a place the department of justice found itself many times in reviewing Police Conduct seeing that the civil rights of individuals have been violated and doing things like pattern practice review of training and all those types of things. I think not only in addition to what happened to george floyd which is unacceptable, and consistent with everything we all know and should we need to get to the bottom of it and make sure situations like this never happened again but the department of justice can also do funding mechanisms to the office of Justice Programs can also find Police Training and studies in all the kinds of things that the data that we need to address some of these situations but we usually in cases like this we would do a investigation with the state handling this now through their attorney general and share information and make sure everyone has the same set of facts and then have a conversation where to best handle the case. I know its been reported that the main officer who had his knee on the neck of george floyd in the horrific video that is very difficult to watch that he had allegedly had a plea agreement with both the state and the feds. There are dual sovereignty are in this situation. Back to your book the president ial policy closest to my heart was showing support for local Law Enforcement who were suffering major crisis of morale after eight years of being thrown under the bus by the Obama Administration. Could you expound on that. Everywhere we went and it really manifested every time we went outside of washington dc and talk to the local police and sheriffs and their deputies and their officers, we would say, we change the tone from washington dc we are not going to paint with a broad brush. Rebecca blame every Police Department for the failings of a few officers that are not doing their job consistent with the law and consistent with policy brackets. I think the goal always should be and always has to be that every child the mother the neighborhood should be able to go play in the front yard. I think we did have made advances in reducing Violent Crimes in our major cities i think its one of the things that is lost in this whole discussion of what happened to george floyd is that our communities were increasingly safer because of good policing primarily by local Police Department and sheriffs departments. I think we can always get better is what makes i wrote a piece last week i think we can always get better and learn from these horrific situations like george floyd and the police can improve training and prove their practices but i cant find anywhere in any training or any manual where what happened to george floyd was recommended or trained. That seems to me to be a real a athats what i think we need to learn is how do things like this happen . How do we have i think in 2019 we had nine or 10 blocks that died unarmed at the hands of the police. I think we need to get down to the bottom of that. And roll up our sleeves and come up with a solution on how to better train officers, how to better hire officers and how to when you have a problem with an officer how to better make sure they dont have a badge and a gun and the authority under the color of law. One of these incidences, even though we only had a handful i think nine or 10 last year, even one of these incidences is too many. This is where we got to continue to have this discussion to make sure its factbased, that the data supports whatever we are implementing and go from there. I think this is where the federal government has such a powerful voice in the department of justice has such a powerful voice and why bill barr is so important to this discussion, that we are having nationwide. Amid the deformed the Police Movements and critiques and Police Unions advocate was camped in new jersey that basically started its police force of fresh. Is that an approach he would support . There are so many Police Departments, thousands of Police Departments each one is unique. The one in my hometown of ankeny iowa the town of 50,000 people there is no reason to start fresh in ankeny. This is where i think the political leaders are failing their people by throwing their hands up in the air and not being able to come up with solutions to some of these problems. I look at minneapolis which has had obviously oneparty rule and i lived there for five years so i know minneapolis well. Theyve had oneparty rule, the city council and the mayor, theyve had a chance. The reform begins there. I think the only Police Department im aware of that doesnt have sort of political responsibility to the city leaders is in kansas city with the state appoints the police commission. Because they have aand all sorts of political corruption challenges in the 30s that they needed a different kind of reform. I think each city through its Political Leadership needs to come up with the necessary appropriate reforms. Its the Political Leadership and those politicians are responsible to the voters and that somehow has lost in this whole discussion is the people of minneapolis need to demand accountability and change and if the mayor and city council are unwilling to do that need need to find a new mayor and city council. That is to happen in every community in every city and every town. To go back to where we started mr. Whitaker, did you see evidence of russian interference in the 2016 election . And was there concern about the 2020 election as well . Im so glad you asked this question because this is where this format gives me a great opportunity to say two things, to separate collusion and interference. 2016 there is no doubt that the russians of the chinese, the irradiance, North Koreans and others tried to affect and influence our election. Same thing in 2018 will is that at the department of justice. Fully expect the same in 2020. The American People need to be sophisticated as to where they get their information and make sure its well verified and well vetted and we did a good job in making rt which is russia today financed by the russian government make them file a foreign nation of registration act. Did i see the evidence of collusion . I did not. I think the Mueller Report points out that there was no collusion but did the russians and others tried to interfere or affect our election . Absolutely but i did not see where one single vote changed on that. Former acting attorney general matthew whitaker, above the law the inside story on how the Justice Department tried to subvert President Trump is the name of the book and we appreciate you being our guest on booktv. Was my honor, thank you so much. Here are some of the current bestselling nonfiction books according to any bound topping the list even candy argues america must choose to be antiracist and work toward building more Equitable Society in how to be antiracist. Then in the room what happened or medtronic National Security advisor john bolton describes his experiences in his time in administration followed by activist gladwells memoir untamed after that is the splendid and the vile historian eric larson study of Prime Minister Winston Churchills leadership during the london blitz. In wrapping up our look at some of the bestselling nonfiction books according to indy bound is between the world and me National Book abto look at the state of black america. Most of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can watch them online at booktv. Org. The president s from public affairs. Available now in paperback and ebook. Present biographies of every president organized by the ranking by noted historians from best to worst. And features perspectives into the lives of our nations chief executive and leadership style. Visit our website cspan. Org the president to learn more about each president and his historian future and order your copy today wherever books and ebooks are sold. Heres a look at some books being published this week. After magazine cofounder thomas frank provides a history of populism in the people know in red November Breitbart editor at large George Pollock, George Pollock examines the 2020 democratic primaries and get green describes her time in a Nasa Mars Mission simulation in once upon a time i lived on mars. Also being published this week in cheryl houston paul diebel expected his career as nasas longestserving flight director. Biographer Charles Levison explores the life of american outlaw butch cassidy. Former National Editor for usa today Philip Berman and centurion ministries founder Jim Mccloskey examine the work that Centurion Ministry does to overturn wrongful convictions in when truth is all you have. In covid19 science journalist Deborah Mckenzie looks at how the covid19 outbreak in china became global pandemic. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the nearest future on booktv on cspan2 tonight on booktv and primetime author and political commentator aoffers his thoughts on the differences between 20th century socialism and socialism today. And argues it must be stopped. Doctor Ezekiel Emanuel of former special advisor on how policy and the Obama Administration weighs in on which countries have the best healthcare. Economics professor mark light discusses why improvements in our economy are accompanied by increases in stress anxiety and anger. Find more information on your Program Guide or online at booktv. Org. 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