America. What does that reflect . It reflects two things. It reflects an unwillingness or an incapability of our Large Technology companies whether its. [inaudible] i would think he would havecriminal problems, id hope so. Good afternoon. Im a reporter at the Washington Post and im joined by john bolton, President Trumps former National Security advisor. Hes the author of the room where it happened a white house memoir. Ambassador bolton welcome. Thank you for having me. Your book has a detailed recounting how you left the Trump Administration. Why did you join the administration in the first place given what you wrote in the book about the president s behavior was largely known beforehand . I had the honor of serving in prior republican administrations as the state department, Justice Department and i felt that it was time to find a great challenge for the United States and i thought that the prior eight years of the Obama Administration had seen a lot of misguided policies that had weakened our National Security posture and i hope i could make a contribution. I was obviously aware of many of the things that had been said and written aboutdonald trump. But i also had had a number of meetings with him where we had discussed my views and his views on foreign defense policy before the election and after he took office. He certainly had watched me on fox news so nobodys ever accuse me of being shy about stating my views so i thought he had a pretty good idea where i stood and i hope that what was in the press and the gossip columns about him would turn out to be overstated and wrong and that we would find a way to make those work in a sustained and coherent fashion and that i could make a contribution. Thats what my motivation was and i recount in the book what actually happened and whether or not that turned out to be true. Speaking of what happened, when was the first moment you came to the conclusion that President Trump was unfit . It didnt pop out like a light bulb turning on. It was an accumulation of many, many meetings, conversations, things that played out over a sustained period of time but there were some successes in the early days, roughly a month after i joined the administration, trump was able to announce the us withdraw from the Iran Nuclear Deal which i felt was badly misguided. It was something he tried to do from the beginning of his term but had not been able to do and i felt that this was something he clearly had signaled during the campaign he wanted to do and it was consistent with my longstanding view of the 2015 deal being contrary to american interests. So despite increasingly troubling signs i think there were also some positive things. Ive tried to be as accurate as i can in describing both sides of the equation so its more an issue of the evidence mounting over time then one immediate moment. Host do you remember any moment you said to yourself this man is unfit toserve as commander in chief early on . Guest i think the most disturbing moment in the early days was at the nato summit in brussels and i describe that at somelength in the book. He really was very close to withdrawing from nato and i thought he really was on the verge of doing that. I thought for all the nato needs substantial reform, fold for all that trump is correct our nato allies have not over the years born their fair share of the cost, the answer is not towithdraw. The oceans do not protect america like they did two or three centuries ago and nato in my judgment is the most successful Political Military Alliance in history so with mike pompeo and jim mattis, john kelly, we all worked in various ways and i recount the stories in the book to help persuade the president not to withdraw and it turned out he didnt withdraw. That whole incident was played out over the stretch of a 48 hour period and it was very unnerving to me and i think as i indicate probably the first point after i joined the white house that i thought i was going to have to resign andit was , but i do think theres a responsibility on people when you go into a position like that. The president makes decisions and nobodys ever on the and any allusions to the contrary that he tried to provide advice and in that case i actually thought maybe this is some confirmation that i can make a contribution and if despite the narrow miss that actually helped encourage me to stay on longer. Your right throughout the book as you just said about your alarm about the president s policy decisions and policy statements both publicly and privately but did you ever speak up and confront the president about the conduct and the behavior that you write about that tested legal bounds . We certainly spoke about it. The president is very good at rejecting information he doesnt want to hear and in some of the areas i thought were legallyquestionable , i did brief the counsel to the president and attorney general, thats really their responsibility and i filled them in on what i knew and counted on them to do what they thought was required. But you know , the service in the white house itself is not like thewest wing. There arent dramatic confrontations with the president , at least any that dont result in 24 hours later the confront her departing from the white house. There are things we tried to do in the ukraine for example to ensure that the Security Assistance thatwas held up was delivered. But its not, its not the kind of environment as in almost any business where you look to confront your boss with something and those are the circumstances we all worked in. Theres a large Alumni Association of people who have left the Trump Administration. They left at different times for different reasons. Its a very personal decision how you address the problem such as the president presented of how long you try and address it and what circumstances youfinally depart under. Host youre a lawyer your entire career and you did go to the white House Counsel and attorney general with some of your concerns but to your point do you have any regret that you did not have as a council of sorts to the president on National Security on legal matters tell him to his face that you had severe concernsabout his conduct and what he was doing . Guest one of the criticisms that i received and im receiving even today in the book is coming out is that i tried to do too many peoples jobs for them and that i should have just done my job. So i tried to respect the fact that im not an investigatori had plenty of other things to do. I did refer this to the lawyers and i told others on the nsc staff to talk to the lawyers. I told other white house advisors of my concerns. But i tried to focus on myjob. Its easy from the outside to say that was wrong and maybe it was a mistake. I can only tell you what i did. It was for the purpose of trying to move the country and the white house in the right direction in terms of policy. Host maybe it was a mistake as you reflect back . Guest it could be. Im certainly aware ive made mistakes and i try to discuss some in the book. It was hardly perfect, there were things i could have done better. Im not sure on this score it would have shifted the president s view on all this in part because he was hearing from so many people from the outside didnt understand how the government was actually run that were influenced. And its not always clear as events go on that something is verging on the illegal. It may simply be unacceptable , unprofessional, unpresident ial so knowing at the time that ukraines good example, exactly what was happening in a wide variety of areas that i or others might not be aware of, you dont have the full picture. Ambassador we received many questions from readers that often an rosenberg of massachusetts and he asked about your lack of testimony and given your dire view of the president , why wasnt it imperative that you testify before thehouse . I addressed this question at length in the book and what let me try and summarize it here. I believe that the advocates of impeachment in the house conducted their impeachment effort in a very misguided way. I think they made a huge mistake. I described them as committing impeachment malpractice. We had history here, we have and wanted to look back to and you can see there even though nixon did not go through the ball in the process, he resigned ofcourse. What happened was that the advocates of impeachment who were all democrats at the beginning build consensus including an increasing number of republicans said nixon conduct constituted by crimes and misdemeanors. If you are urban committeefor example , democrats worked with howard baker, republican to develop the evidence and facts of what had happened at watergate. Thats not what the democrats did here. It acted in a manner that was received and i think rightly was understood to be partisan. They throw House Republicans into a partisan corner. That resulted in highly partisan proceedings in the house and almost arty line Impeachment Vote and therefore pretty much guaranteed the same sort of thing in the senate. If the goal was not just getting a quote to impeach trump in the house but actually removing him from office, they did it just about hundred and 80 degrees the wrong way. I saw that and that jumping off the cliff with them was not only a mistake but that whatever else i had to say and have gotten lost in the shuffle of their mistakes. And i think thats to be regretted but this happened, the democratic strategy was devised by them and implemented by them. Before they talk to anybody else as far as i know. Your decision changed history and i hear your political argument there. Your legal organ, your historical arguments. The same time did you ever grapple both a moral and personal obligation as a citizen . I grapple with it extensively. And asked myself what my duty as a citizen was and what would be effective. You know, Ronald Reagan used to say when i served at the Justice Department and the reagan administration, used to tell enemies sometime im notjumping off a cliff with all flags flying. And i thought what the advocates of impeachment were doing here was pretty much exactly that. I think they were virtue signaling and i think that they made a strategic mistake for the country their arguments was that trump will be forever impeached and that will be a constraint on his behavior. That is exactly the opposite of what happened. He was not just impeached, he was acquitted. So their actions did not form a deterrence against future similar conduct trump. They enabled it. And i thought that was a mistakeand i thought in any event , the time really to discuss these kinds of things couldnt be better than in the middle of a president ial campaign. And with the impeachment effort doomed to failure in my view and i believe as it turned out correctly, i thought the responsible thing to do is make sure that these facts in the book were put on the Public Record for people to consider. People will read the book and they may vote for donald trump anyway, thats their decision but my hope is at least they know what theyre voting for. You recently said you dont have notes, you didnt use notes for writing this book. It is so detailed, i read the whole thing over the course of days as a lawyer who probably often use a dictation device use a dictation device in the process of writing this book and recounting your time in the white house . Im not sure on high tech enough to turn a dictation device on and off. I come back to the nixon administration, i dont want to get into anything else. I did the best job i could. Ill stand by what i said in the book. Its the best job i could do. Some people will disagree with and i understand that and im prepared to talk about facts and who has recollections , this happens as a former trial lawyer. I know people can fit in a meeting and come away with different recollections and im very confident that what i wrote in the book is the best that i could doto put it down accurately. Lets turn to some of the topics inside the book. You raise red flags not just about what you say is the president and confident but great issues of possible corruption. You said on page 458 the president had a penchant for handing out personal papers for dictators elect. You believe ambassador president from or family members such as Jared Kushner have financial conflicts as a graph Foreign Policy for the unitedstates. I dont know the answer to that question. But i wouldsay as i wrote the book , and recounted these various incidents, it wasnt personal financial gain for donald trump that was most on my mind. It was the misuse of legitimate government power. To advance his own political interests. And thats something that he has, he never forgets what his political interest is. People say he has a short attention span, he doesnt read. He doesnt consider facts necessarily. And i lay out a lot of examples of that in the book but when it comes to his own reelection, all of those paid away. Its too bad more wasnt devoted to the National Security rather than his own reelection. But thats what i was primarily concerned about if there are examplesof financial misdeeds , i cant say that i saw any. And so i really wouldnt want to speculate about it but the misuse of government power or any nongovernmental purpose in my view is illegitimate. Every president takes politics into account. It would be nacve and foolish to think otherwise but i do think theres a line one should not cross where governmental power is used essentially exclusively for personalbenefit. Did the president ever talk you about investigations at the Southern District of new york . He spoke yes, he did but he most importantly spoke to president one of turkey. About the whole Bank Investigation and prostitution in new york and i recounting the book the concern i had that mike pompeo had and Steve Mnuchin had about the president and erdogan talking about this investigation and what the president saidabout what he would do influence it. The attorney generals part of this firing of the fdny us attorney. He went to the attorney general voice your concern about other issues like vce and yahweh. Do you believe the attorney general is compromised in any way. I dont know the circumstances involved in the firing of the acting us attorney in the Southern District of new york. I wouldnt want to speculate about it. I dont know if hawk bank is involved at all from the perspective, because ive been out of the government now since i resigned in september, i dont have anything to add other than what ive read in the newspapers. Host if House Democrats pursue an investigation of the attorney general would you be willing to testify. Id rather not get intoa hypothetical about. There pursuing a subpoena right now. Lets see what they do. The way they mishandled the impeachment inquiry gives me pause i have to say. Especially in light of the circumstances of things President Trump has done to prevent the book itself from being published but ill certainly consider it if and when it comes up and consult with my lawyers and try and do the right thing. Host so youre open to it, you would try to do the right thing if they pursue an investigation of barr . Guest right now this is hypothetical. Were all in a Campaign Season and i think we all know what that means. Host you talked about rudy giuliani. Do you viewthe investigation of Vice President biden , hunter biden and burisma as a legitimate investigation . Guest i dont know anything about biden or his son or about what their activities were again other than what ive seen in the newspapers. Now, if there are facts that warranted, then i dont have any objection to it. But i dont see anything here other than a very foolish act by hunter biden to take the money from burisma. The appearance is not good but whether there is substance to it or not i dont see that from the media accounts that ive read. I think it was foolish but i dont see anything beyond that at this point. Host you write in your book about jamaal khashoggi, can you tell us about the president s views on the murder of khashoggi. I recount conversations he had with saudi leaders, he said he wanted an investigation to get to the bottom of it but he also said clearly and made a couple of statements to do exactly the same effect that we were going to stand by the saudis because of theimportance of the relationship to the United States in a very turbulent and troubled region. Vladimir putin said to me later look, the United States doesnt want to sell arms to saudi arabia, thats fine. We will sell arms to saudi arabia so its kind of a hard realpolitik view of the world but thats the view that he took because of the importance of the importance of the bilateral relationship and i think that was the read write course. Host lets stay on the potent front, you write at length about president clinton and President Trump. You believe the russians and putin have manipulated the president s worldview . Guest i dont think the president has a worldview. That to me is the central problem. He doesnt approach National Security with a philosophy in mind. He doesnt have a grand strategy. He doesnt have a policy so theres not much there for the russians or anyone else to manipulate but my fear is that whether its Vladimir Putin or xi jinping or any number of other authoritarian foreign leaders that they do see the president as easy to maneuver around to achieve their objectives i think that is a very real concern. Host you stay also the president sought help from the chinese president for his reelection campaign. Do you have any evidencethat china is now helping the president s campaign . Guest i dont think they are accomplishing the purchases of Agricultural Products that the president was really talking about. Some of his trade advisors say the deal was going to find and the chinese are complying. I think the evidence for that is slight to say the least and i think this points to one of the questions that voters generally but particularly conservative republicans like myself should be asking, whether if trump is reelected in november he will pursue the kinds of rhetoric his administration is using now taking a tough line on china. Whether that will continue or whether it will disappear so the president can get backto the trade negotiations. That point you believe that the president is reelected he will work closer with maduro, workcloser with xi jinping , kim jong un and all theothers . Guest i think part of the trouble in describing what happens in Trump Administration Foreign Policy is that what seems to be decided on day one is sometimes reversed on day two and venezuela example is a good case in point. I described in the book how the venezuelan opposition in january 2019 decided that they had to take a very active antimaduro position. Thought it might be their last chance torescue freedom in venezuela. The supporters of the venezuela in this country uniformly agreed. They had to take that chance. We had broad bipartisan support for supporting the opposition in venezuela and at a timewhen there isnt much in washington that bipartisan , the strong support for that and the president went along with it until he decided that he was nervous that maduro was really a stronger leader. He earlier this year and one juan glide out the leader of the opposition to the state of the Union Message and then not just a few days ago he said hed meet with maduro and he was uncertain about gliders leadership and that caused a firestorm in venezuelan america and cubanamerican communities and the president reversed himself again. After the election what his position will be then. Host we only have a few minutes left just a few more short answers, short questions. Your office in dc, a white house near all these protests about racial injustice, you talk in the book about the president using boulder terms, texas termsand did you ever hear anything inside of this white house was racist. I dont think in terms that are can fairly be described as racist. No i dont. I know there were other statements that were attributed to him. Before i joined the white house. But no, i dont, i dont recall any if i had i would have put them in thebook. You write about the president and his belief in democracy. You believe that the president will follow the peaceful transfer of power in and leave the white house peacefully if he is defeated this year . I certainly hope so. And i think its important for republicans especially to make that clear. This is something that if were not careful, i think carrying the albatross of this administration around our neck any longer than necessary is going to cause great harm to the country for sure but conservatives and republicansas well and outcome your describing would be absolutely the worst. Lets pause there, you said hope so. About thepeaceful transfer of power so youre not certain. I think in the Trump Administration you cant be certain of anything. What does that mean forthe faith of this country . I think the prospects for the president ial election is november are very unhappy, certainly for me as a lifelong conservative who started handing out leaflets for Barry Goldwater as a kid in 15 area i wish we were faced with this choice that i wish there were a real conservative republican. On the ballot and theres not really not what the happy time from myperspective , i hope to send at least a little time working hard to make sure the republican majority in thesenate is preserved. I think whether trump wins or loses that absolutely is critical. But at the president iallevel prospects are not happy. You going to be busy working on your Political Action committee this year. Will you campaign against President Trump . I dont know exactly how it play out i have bought all that. I think frankly the bulk of my efforts, maybe all of my efforts will be at the congressional level area i think under the surface in the Republican Party theres a great desire to get beyond the trump era and i think we will see that particularly if hes defeated in november. I think its too critical that the party as an institution have a discussion about how we perceive growing forward because otherwise i fear that the ramifications of trumps 4 years in office will be very damaging and when it comes to National Security i think its critical to have a strong Republican Party to make the case or a strong american policy. Final question ambassador and i appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation. Based on your point just now , are you considering a 2024 president ial run . Absolutely not. I can say that unequivocally. People are accusing me of nothings trying to get money out of the book and whatnot. If money were my objective i never would have gone intothe government , lets beclear of that. This is not for personal gain. I love this book for the country and for philosophy. And to avoid any misunderstanding on thepoint, im glad you asked that question as i said. So i can unequivocally shaman ask fashion rollout president ial campaign in 2024. I do remember starting to cover you back in 2011 when you were thinking about it in 2012 and 2015 when you are thinking about in 2016 so i have to ask. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for all of you watching, for joining us at Washington Post life. Pleasestay with us later today at 4 30 eastern , my colleague will host a series weve been doing all the race in america, it will be a conversation with lindsay peoples minor. Hurricane raven and i will be back here in the sea on thursday with the house speaker. Nancy pelosi, that will be thursday at 1 00 eastern time. A good conversation hopefully with the speaker of the house , have a good afternoon. Tonight we will repair todays Washington Post interview with formerNational Security advisor john bolton. On his new memoir. And starting 8 pm eastern on cspan2. This we watched houseboats on policing reform dc statehood legislation. Thursday at 10 am eastern wife on cspan, the house will debate and vote on the democrats policing reform bill. George for justice in policing and on friday at 9 am eastern live on cspan house will vote on legislation to designate the District Of Columbia as a state. What this week life thursday and friday on cspan, online at cspan. Org or listen live on the free radio app. Watched tv this summer, saturday evening at 8 pm eastern. Settle in and watch several hours of your favorite authors. Saturday were featuring twotime Pulitzer Prize winning author and historian David Mccullough author of over a dozen books including the Wright Brothers , the american spirit and his most recent the pioneers. And watch saturday, july 11 as we feature commentator author and founder of the National Review william f buckley. What tv all summer on cspan2. In advance of the senate beginning consideration of senator scott Police Reform legislation, several Democratic Senators spoke about Police Reform efforts today on the floor. They all urged the republican leader to allow consideration of ademocratic proposal. Include minority leader schumer, senators cory booker and colin harris. Hereswhat they had to say
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