Covid19 pandemic hosted by the National Low Income housing coalition. Were glad that youre able to join us for this conversation with ceo diane yantell and best selling author dr. Ibrahim kendi. Submit questions by clicking here on the left side of the screen and you have to start have technical difficulties or have a question, click here on that right side of the screen button. The event will be recorded and available on this site within 24 hours. Its now my pleasure to turn the it over to diane. Great. Thanks, dave, and welcome, everyone, to todays conversation with dr. Reeb bram kennedy. Im really looking forward to this conversation, and im so glad that almost 5,000 people have registered for it today. Im so heartened and encouraged by the level of interest in this topic. So im president and ceo of the National Low Income housing coalition. We are a Membership Organization that is dedicated to achieving socially just Public Policies that insure that the lowest income people have decent, accessible and affordable homes. And as participant of that work part of that work, we have worked on disasters, housing response, recovery, rebuilding, for many years through our disaster housing recovery coalition. And weve done this work recognizing that decades of Structural Racism and other structural inequities puts our countrys lowest income and most historically marginalized people people of color, people with disabilities, people experiencing homelessness, lgbtq people, people reentering their communities from jails and prisons and others are at most risk of being harmed by disasters. And without our dedicated and intentional focus and effort, we know theyll be left behind in the housing recovery and rebuilding. So covid19, in our view, is the latest disaster to hit our with with our country with the same pat persons of harm and neglect caused by decades of Structural Racism in our country. This disaster is different in some ways, right in its unprecedented in scale and magnitude and duration. But our urgent need to Center Racial Equity for all historically marginalized people in the response and the recovery as critical as ever. The coronavirus is clearly disproportionately harming people of color, and its illustrating in even historical and systemic racism. I believe that we have an obligation in our housing and homelessness work on covid19 to Center Racial Equity. And at this moment when we are working together to get congress to fund over 100 billion in rental assistance and other critical housing and homelessness dollars, dr. Kendis work if guidance is so important. He urges us in really profound and practical ways to develop policies and programs that are explicitly antirace is cyst. And racist. And he offers us guidance on how to do it. So, you know, this moment that were in right now is unique in so many ways, most very terrible ways. But just as were seeing covid19, in covid19 maybe one of the clearest expect most obvious and the most obvious manifestations of Structural Racism in who is harmed, who is impacted by covid19. We also have this tremendous possibility with hundreds of billions of dollars flowing to statements and cities states and cities in response to up due some of that harm, reverse inequity. So im just thrilled to have dr. Ibram kennedy join me today kendi join me for this conversation, one of the worlds foremost historians. He is a New York Times best selling author and founding director of the Antiracist Research and policy center at American University in washington d. C. A professor of history and international relations, dr. Kendi is the author of starred from the beginning stamped from the beginning, the definitive history of racist ideas in america, which won the National Book award for nonfiction. And his most recent book, how to be an antis racist, reinher eyeses the conversation about Racial Justice in america. So, dr. Kendi, im a big fan of your work. Thank you so much for joining me today. Im glad were able to have this conversation. At long last, yeah. So we have a lot to discuss in an hour, and theres just so much of your wisdom and your work that i really want to glean for our collective housing and homelessness work. But i want to start with some of the really foundational components of your work that can guide the rest of our conversation about Racial Equity in housing during and after covid19. So most, if not all, of your published work really centers around racism being a core tenet, right, of the american way and foundational to our country and around the need for us to overcome the scourge of racism. New the work of antiracism. Through the work of antiracism. You say that its not enough to not be racist, we have to be actively antiracist. Is so so can you describe, define the different terms and talk about what you mean by that. So i, i define a racist as someone who is instructing a racist idea, and racist ideas typically suggest that a particular racial group is better or worse, peer your, inferior than another or this is whats wrong or right about this racial group. And so i define a racist as someone whos expressing a racist idea or supporting a racist policy with their actions or even inaction. And throughout the course of american history, almost every person who i would classify as being racist denied that they were being racist, denied that their ideas were racist, denied that their policies were racist, and so the term not racist, i am not racist, has really always been the sound of that denial. And ive never really been able to figure out what being a not racist truly is other than someone denying their own racist ideas, denying the policies that theyre supporting. But i do have a clear sense of what being antiracist is. But if a racist is expressing an idea of racial hierarchy, then an antiracist is one whos expressing antiracist ideas that theres nothing wrong or right, superior or inferior with any of the racial groups. If a racist is supporting a racist policy that is leading to inequity and injustice, then an antiracist is someone who would be supporting a policy, an antiracist policy thats leading to equity and justice. So theres really no in between, no hierarchy of inequality. In between notions of racial policies that lead to equity and inequity. And so, again, i dont really know where, what it means to be not racist, but i have a very clear sense of what it means to be racist. And antiracist and so im encouraging americans to be antiracist, because if theyre not, chances are theyd be racists. Yeah. Yeah, and part of this definition or idea is that being racist is, its not a fixed identity, right . Its not it can be a temporary state of being and that all of us that are working towards being antiracist have ebbs and flows, right . Certainly including me and including you. And you wrote about in your book you wrote about your own process of being racist to working towards being actively and consistently antiracist. Is so can you talk a little bit about your process and how that applies to others. I think the process for me was largely coming to terms with definition, for having a very clear sense of what it means to be raysest or even antiracist. Can you imagine if you do not have a very clear definition of a racist, its easy the deny [laughter] that racism because we dont even know what that truly is. So i think, first and foremost, it was coming to terms with basic definitions. But then i think one of the problems with classifying someone as a racist is, as you mentioned, we are actually taught that a racist is a fixed category. Its literally who a person is, not what a person is. That its literally in their dna, its in their heart, its in their bones that someone becomes a racist. And thereby a racist is an evil, bad person. And theres really no, no remedy for those racists. They cant be cured. And so with that type of perspective, i can understand why so Many Americans are like, no, im not racist, you know . Im that person, you know . Thats actually not how we should understand racists or even antiracists. And these are descriptive terms. They describe what a persons doing in any given moment. And the reason why this is you had white abolitionists who, when they would emphasize, people like William Lloyd garrett would say things like, call for immediate emancipation, that slavery is horrible, it should not live another day. In the moment they were being antiracist. But William Lloyd garrison and other white abolitionists sometimes in the very next moment would say and the reason it should end is because its so evil, and its is so evil that it has literally made black people [inaudible] theyre human. So we need to not only free them, but civilize them. That very next moment they were being racist. They were potentially like slave holders imagining these enslaved black people as subhuman. And so in talking about how racist isnt an insult per se, right . Its a changeable state of being, and its just a fact. Its not, its not necessarily a judgment. I think its really important because that definition really then compels all of us to name and call out racism when we see it. And i think that a lot of people and maybe especially white people feel uncomfortable calling things racist. Theyd rah rather say, wed rather say Racial Disparities or racial inequities and the outcomes. And thats true, but its not the sole truth, right . And in being unwilling to call something that is racist racist, we can actually do more harm than good. Can you talk why that is . Why its so where it can lead to when we talk only about racial outcomes and not about the racism that created those outcomes . I think, i think with anything when were talking about human beings, when were talking about problems, it is absolutely critical to name problems for what it is. And that, you know, even if its a personality character of one of us. Well, the personality character of america, right, or an institution, the first step in its receiving treatment, in it being remedied, in it changing is identifying the true problem. And i think its the same thing with racism. It is hard, you know, particularly if were selfidentifying our own ideas as racist or selfidentifying our country or our institution or our sector of society. Its a its hard. Which is why so many people and so many institutions and so many societies refuse to grow and refuse to change, because the first step in that growth is recognizing the problem. And so i just dont know how we as a nation can transform ourselves if we dont truly recognize the true source of this pain. And that true source is racism. Its almost like the rword. Its not the rword. Its not a pejorative term, you know . And its not the equivalent of saying i dont indeed, Richard Spencer once said that. He lectured to white people that racist is a pejorative term. Its the equivalent of saying i dont like you. And it just so happens he was a white supremacist. And white supremacist have been spreading those ideas particularly toward white people so that they will continue to deny their own racism, to those white rationalist organizers can recruit them. Uhhuh. And, and also not naming racism as racism and talking only about outcomes, it can lead it gives room for people to blame personal failings, right, on the outcomes rather than the structural inequities of the racism that created those outcomes. And i think in how, when we talk about this, as an example of, you know, we know that people of color are disproportionately low income and are disproportionately rentburdenedded. And we know that black and native people are disproportionately homeless. And then some see those outcomes and say, well, its a result of personal failings. Ben carson, the secretary of hud, today talked about how poverty is state of mind and that the kids should read more like he did. And so he sees poverty as a personal failiing and so then his proposals about fixing character flaws in individual people when that so clearly and probably purposefully is Structural Racism that causes these disproportional outcomes. So aside from ben carson, i think that there is now a broad understanding by many of us in the Housing Field that many past housing policies are racist. Redlining, blockbusting, subprime loans, right . A lot of other housing policies fall more into the racenewt neutral or raceblind, color blind category. And they also do equally if not more harm to people of color. So can you talk a little bit about how raceneutral policies can actually harm people of color, perpetuate racial disparries disparities . So in the 1960s and certainly by the 1970s, that is when a lot of affirmative action were put in place. And the racist reaction to affirmative action policies that were actually leading to reductions in racial inequity from state contracts to the, to admissions and highly selective colleges and universities, their reaction to it was to create this framing of a raceneutral policy versus a raceconscious policy. They created this idea that a policy that has no racial language in it is raceneutral and not racist, and a policy like an affirmative action policy that has racial language in it is reverse racist or racism. But, in fact, when you look at the fact of the history of american racism, the vast majority of policies that americans collectively consider now to be racist did not have any racial language them. So were talking, i mean, you mentioned housing policies. We could go to voting policies from literacy tests to grandfather clauses to poll taxes kid not have any racial did not have any racial language. Even the u. S. Constitution itself which especially made it such that slave people were threefifths of a there was no racial language. And so just because a policy does not have any racial language in it does not mean it is antiracist, right . So again if were thinking about policies as either racist or antiracist, the frame of a raceneutral or a raceconscious policy falls to the wayside, and we can replace that framing with if a policy leading to racial ipg equity inequities, then its racist. If a policy is leading to Racial Equity, its antiracist. The reason why for many people who are supporting racist policies, the reason why they want us to conceive of this idea of a raceneutral policy, it is because they do not want racist and antiracist policies defined based on their outcome. Because if we define all policies as a racist or antiracist based on their outcome, they then will have the burden of proof. Proving that their policy somehow is, quote, not racist as opposed to us, like, as we do now. And as far as im concerned, being antiracist [inaudible] leading to equity and justice. Let me just say very is quickly also when you have a racial inequity, it either is the result of policy that is favoring or disfavoring political racial groups, or its because theres something wrong or even right with [inaudible] and if youre a policymaker like ben carson, you and youre not instituting policies that are leading to inequity i should say equity or justice or you dont want to be blamed for the persisting inequities under the administration, then your going to articulate the only other option. The problem is the people, not my policies. Yes. So how do we create antiracist housing and homelessness policies from the start . Where do we start and how do we create these policies that could achieve Racial Equity. So i would suggest, first and foremost, figuring out the true source of the problem, meaning what, what what are the racial inequities. And so collecting not only the sort of quantitative data, but even the qualitative data. Speaking to the people, you know, to truly seek to, you know, understand the source, you know, of their housing harm. So once you have a clear and consistent and sophisticated and complex understanding, you know, of the problem, then from there, then from the evidence, from the research, from the data, from the story of low income people, you can then those policies based on that research, or i should say create policies based on that research that has the capacity to alleviate the harm that has been more or less expressed new that research. And then through that research. And then they become test cases. In other words, okay, are these policies reducing racial ink bity. And then if they tonight inequity. If they dont, we should go back to the drawing board and innovate new antiracist policies and keep testing policies in different places based on different circumstances until we have a bent of what policies work or we use policies that are working in certain cities in others. Uhhuh. So theres so much to, so much that we can apply that to now especially with covid19 and with new resources going to communities to recover. So certainly were seeing a tremendous amount of Racial Disparity in covid19 and who gets sick, who dies, who loses their job, whos harmed. Youve created very recently, i think, a covid racial data tracker. Can you talk about the project and what you hope to achieve with it, what youre finding so far . Yeah. So we, we started calling for states to release racial Demographic Data on covid patients, you know, in early april. At the time only a handful of states had released breakdowns of who was being infected by race and who was being killed. By the second week of april, more and more states started policing this Demographic Data, and there was no place, particularly the federal government was not collecting and presenting this data. Is so my colleagues at the Antiracist Research and policy center, we partnered with the covid tracking project to begin collecting that day data and, ultimately, with the efforts to present the data. Our site went live this morning [inaudible] but not only did we want to sort of collect and present all of the racial Demographic Data, weve been able to compile the most comprehensive data set available. We also a had to building a network of people concern build a network of people in different states who are calling there for this data and continuing to call for this day eta. Some states are only released infections and not deaths. Were tyge finding that in state after state, particularly in the midwest and certainly in the southeast, black people are disproportionately dying of covid19. Were finding in statements like new mexico in states like new mexico and minute that native and montana that native people are disproportionately affected or dying of covid19. Were finding asianamericans in states like alaska are disproportionately infected. Were finding that native hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders are disproportionately affected in hawaii. Were finding the latinaamericans are in the United States disproportionately affected by covid19. In state after state, people of color are bearing the disproportionate burden of infection and death rate. Yeah. So first, im sorry, i think i said wow just as you were, right over you as you were saying the web site, so can can you repeat the web site again . Sure. Covidtracking. Com race. Great. Okay. Thank you for doing that. What incredibly important work. And so the disease itself, obviously, is not racist, but the outcomes so clearly are doing disproportionate harm to black, latino, native people, and its [inaudible] its like this moment is a crystallization of the harm that Structural Racism can do. It is. So can you talk a little bit more about that and talk about how have racist policies led to black and brown people disproportionately dying from covid19. Sure. So, and i think its critical to also talk about when americans, particularly by the second week of april, began to learn about these Racial Disparities, the first argument to explain it was that people of color were not taking the virus as seriously, or were not social distancing at much as, lets say, white people. Then when predominantly white sort of crowds started protesting to open the states back up, that argument hardly held [inaudible] this began to switch to, well, black people are dying at high rates because they have more preexisting conditions. And then it was never explained why black people, or typically its not explained why. Or if it is explained, its back people are apparently its because we dont take care of our health as well as, lets say, white people. Were not making as many fine health choices. And so alternately for Many Americans, theyre laying the blame for people of color on being infected at higher rates for the people of color. But the studies show otherwise. And, actually, a recent study came out that found employment, access to Health Insurance, access to high quality medical care, poor compare Water Quality were actually more predictive of people of color dying of infections and death from covid19 than preexisting conditions. And so if we break those down, first employment. When we think about the history of racism, youre talking about the history of policies that have historically led to people of color not essentially being as likely to be employed. Before this latest recession, even though the president was touting the lowest black unemployment record in history, black people were still twice as likely to be unemployed as white people. Black people and white people with the same qualifications and when a black person has a different sounding name, theyre less likely to receive callbacks. We can go with all of the sort of studies that show how and why black people are disproportionately unemployed, but its certainly not the result of their infear your inferior behavioral traits. Access to Health Insurance, you know, studies the refusal particularly of Southern States to expand medicare has had a disproportionately negative effect on people of color who are disproportionately poor in those Southern States. That decision was a racial decision. And each black people and latino people are more likely to not have medical insurance in this country than white people. So those who advocate again insuring every Single Person in this country has Health Insurance are essentially advocating a racist position. And, you know, we can go on and on about how black and native and latino communities are more likely polluted, which also is a major predicter, but thats not the results of uhhuh, uhhuh. And so each of these racist policies have a compounding effect, right . Exactly. The racial policies that, the racist housing policies that created segregated communities led to racial housing policies that meant we disinvest in those communities which led to increased poverty in these communities, which leads to these increased underhighing Health Conditions and is so on underlying Health Conditions and is access to health care, and here we are today. So i think when we start to think about the layering of racist policies expect compounding effect it has, it feels daunting to think about how we undo and unwind that. So what, what intentional changes and should we be making now to address these racist legacies . Well, i think it can be daunting, and its certainly, it is daunting. But i also think its important for us to be cleareyed and for us to really particularly in the housing sort of field or in any other field or sector of society, if we understand racism as a structure, its critically important for us to not for us to constantly be thinking about the way in which all of the different elements that a make up that structure, all of the policies or lack thereof that are leading to black people being disproportionately homeless in the society, and so we focus on the policies. We focus on the inequities in the policies that are harming us, and then we focus on the policymakers who are either supporting us, seeking to transform those policies or who are resisting that and even then instilling and supporting racist policies. I think we can very clearly see what the problem and who the problem is. And herbally put our focus essentially, put our focus on that what and on that who. And so, and i think every one of us has a job to do in this sort of larger project or this larger antiracist struggle. And so we dont all every single one of us have to be simultaneously at the same time fighting against every single racist policy. But we can fight against those in our community. We can fight against those in our area of expertise. And i think thats what we should each focus on. Yeah, absolutely. And on that, right, the congress has already passed, well, several trillion dollars, but hundreds of billions that are going to whole communities, communities are now figuring out who to prioritize, how to use those dollars, what programs and policies to implement with those funds. And at the same time, were pushing congress to provide hundreds of billions more for housing if homelessness needs. So a lot of people who are on this call today are people who are advocating directly with or, you know, influencing several policies, or theyre people who are at the state and local level who, you know, with those dollars are working on creating these programs. So what would you advise us . Like, what are the concrete actions that we can take to insure that these hundreds of billions of dollars are reaching the people who need it the most and are being used to correct Structural Racism, to achieve Racial Equity. Sure. So i think, first and foremost, its i have to figure out a way to speak broadly enough that each person, fedding on what theyre depending on what theyre advocating for, can glean something. But i think its critically important for each of us to distinguish between a program that can help an individual or uplift an individual and a program or even a policy change that can uplift a community. And let me give an example. You have some states that are funding informational commercials to try to get people of color to become more aware or to understand the seriousness of the threat of covid19 to their health. That, at the most, going to only is going to only help those individuals who are hearing those commercials who dont hardly know that its a problem. Even though studies show that people of color as a early as mid march were taking this virus more seriously than white people. So that, that is so any time were thinking about [inaudible] or even behavioral change, thats really at the most only going to help individuals. It is not going to help communities. So when you think about helping communities, we really need to be thinking about policy change. And when i say policy change, im not just saying, you know, city council sort of passing a policy that helps the community. Im also talking about it can be within an institution. It can be within a neighborhood. It can be informal. And we need to be constantly thinking about will this money or will this program, will this policy reduce inequity, will it empower people who have historically been disempowered . Are those people [inaudible] for profit . Am i assuming that theres nothing wrong with the people and is anything wrong with their condition, and im striving through this bork, through this funding, through this program or policy to help the people by helping or transforming their condition. If were thinking from that standpoint, then were thinking from an antiracist standpoint. Sure. Taking notes on your [laughter] really good stuff. So i want to talk a little bit more about the purpose of racial policies. You know, i do think that many people who are on the call today understand our countrys history of racism and policies from slavery to jim crow, essentially separating the country. But i think if you ask more people which came first, the racist beliefs or the racist policies, i think many would say the policies follow the belief. But you say, and you show it really convincingly, the opposite. Which i just found to be really powerful insight. So can you talk a little bit more about how and why racial policies are advanced . Who benefits . Sure. So lets take the policy of blockbusting that im sure everyone understands. And i think its first and foremost important for us to understand who benefits from blockbusting. So those of you who may not be familiar with blockbusting, it was in the mid 20th century when you had particularly a block or even a neighborhood that was historically white, a family, a black family or even a latino family moved into the neighborhood, and then typically the developer or the Real Estate Agent or others would tell the other white families on that block, oh, that black family is the first in this sort of avalanche or this invasion of black people, and theyre going to bring your housing values down, and theyre going to bring crime to the neighborhood, and their kids are going to have to go to school with your kids and, you know, so then these white homeowners would be scared into selling. And so the block was thereby so who benefited from that . So reallies agents and Real Estate Agents and spectatelers, those speculators, those Real Estate Agents were able to gain from a transaction of the white family who left. They were able to gain from the transaction of the black family who then were brought to those busted urban neighborhoods, be developers in the suburbs who typically ushered those fleeing white families benefitedment and typically, those white families sold their home below market value because they were so scared. And then they fellowed, of course, to the suburbs. And typically those black homeowners had to buy those homes above market value x. So what was happening marley for those white particularly for those white homeowners who were fleeing black people is they were being told racist ideas. And so then the question becomes who benefited from that and then why werent they telling them those racist ideas . Why were those developers, those Real Estate Agents, those speck spectators telling those white families those racist ideas . Why were statements and cities allowing this to happen through racist policies . So what im arguing is that there was a very clear sense of white peoples racist ideas. And you know what . We can manipulate these white people through racist ideas to flee, sell their process under market value, buy this new property that they dont necessarily e need in the suburbs, and were going to benefit from it. So what im ultimately arguing this is no different than you have the Republican Party recognized that they would benefit if black and latinx voters were [inaudible] so they institutedded policies like voter id laws, like, you know, banning urban voting that then targeted africanamerican voters with surgical precision, to quote a North Carolina count. But with they needed a just they needed to explain particularly to their voters, to their white voters, why they were doing this. And then they created this idea of voter fraud, this longstanding racist idea that people of color are more [inaudible] and then white people typically consume those ideas. And then they supported these policies that were benefiting these political, these politicians who knew that the only way that they can maintain office or even win an election was through voter suppression. Is so ultimately, its just like people were enslaving people to make money. First and foremost, they were supporting racist policies that allowed them to enpeople so they could enslave people so they could make more money. And then they articulated, expressed, produced racist ideas to justify what was making them money, to substantiate ethos racist ideas. And then americans started receiving those ideas. And thats how people became ignorant and hateful, and so thats what i show in my work. Merely the racist policies and the selfinterests behind those policies, and if there was ever a sector that could understand that, its the housing sector. And the racist policies and to the racist ideas with, and the racist ideas give to and are still leading to ignorance and hate. Uhhuh. So powerful, so important. Another really, another really profound finding that you share in stamped from the beginning is how you talk about how racial progress is always followed by new and more sophisticateed right . Like donald trump following barham mall is an barack obama is an obvious current example. And other people have noted that before, but typically, you know, other analysts or writers talk about how this is a backlash, two steps forward, one step back. But you talk about it really, you talk about it in a different and profound way about, as i understand it, theres, like, two simultaneous tracks with equally Progressive Movement and growth. One with racial progress and one with deepening racism. And so, again, i think thinking about it this way can feel like its insurmountable. What do we do . How do we overcome the persistent deepening of racism and the racist outcomes . How do we make sure that the train on the right track wins . Uhhuh. Well, i think we, first, realize that just because we have won a game meaning won a game meaning institute thed an antiracist policy doesnt mean that those who are instituting and pushing for racist policies have stop playing the game. The antiracist policies need to be protected and the work on being antiracist discipline if the constant action that all of us are required to do you talk about in your books about because all of us are conditioned in a world that is racist and in a country thats really rooted in and structured around antiblack racism that all of us can perpetuate these racist ideas even maybe especially when we have the best of intentions so being antiracist is really this discipline that requires work, its constant action its constant self reflection and awareness and willingness to admit mistakes. I think this is such a critically important part of your work for all of us who are on this call who are working on influencing and making public policy. A last broad question for me and i will turn to some of the questions that have come in. What Additional Guidance would you give us in doing this work . Of achieving housing justice especially now during and after this time of covid19 . I think first and foremost especially those who been fighting for some time for housing justice it can be easy to become hopeless, easy to begin to believe that this pandemic of low income people do not have Affordable Housing is essential, theres too many powerful political and economic forces even ideas that we are fighting against and the cynicism can really sort of grow within so what i would say in response to that is that first and foremost we have to recognize that in order to bring about change we have to believe it. Believe in its a this is coming from someone who has studied the history of antiblack racism, has literally seen the most horrific aspects of the countrys history, regularly seeing that and studying that and observing that and being horrified by that today but through all of that i still believe in the possibility of change not because i have some sort of crystal ball because i know i have to believe in change. There is no other alternative. As hard as it is to believe in 1860s when youre one of 4 million enslaved people that in your lifetime you will see the jubilee as hard as this is to believe that when you know your ancestors we dont know whats possible until we bring it up. I want to encourage people to never stop dreaming and never stop conditioning a different type of america a type of america where we dont even need to be fighting for lowincome Affordable Housing because it will be low income people. The idea of Affordable Housing and need for Affordable Housing wont be as widespread as the belief that that water is wet. I want to ask you and the remaining few minutes i want to ask you a few of the questions that have come in from some of our audience. One is how do we build the political will from antiracist political policies from so many people and voters in the u. S. Are either antagonistic or indifferent and when policymakers know that voters voted for their own self interests. Rebuild that by showing people that what they considered to be in their self interest is actually not in their selfinterest. When i encourage people to be antiracist, even middle income white people, not encouraging them to be all touristic. Im encouraging them to do whats in their intelligence of interest. I think its critical for us to recognize how more inegalitarian america will be better for the vast majority of american, except a very very tiny few, the vast majority of us will benefit. Its without question that what say what people benefit more from racist policies obviously then people of color but would benefit too for more inegalitarian. I have a lot of thoughts on the open market share because were here to hear your thoughts. We talk about that with housing and outside of working toward being antiracist. Another question is how do widespread racist stereotypes like the welfare queen influence how we advance antiracist policies. What happens is that racist ideas cause us to be the seaview the people thats the problem and thereby causes us to believe racist policies are the solution so therefore we dont even imagine the need for antiracist policies let alone so racist ideas really cause people to oppose antiracist policies that actually can lead to equity and justice because because they believe inequity is normal. Another question from somebody about your book how to be an antiracist. Says in the end you call for changes in policy to overcome racism and that the reader thought that where you were going, the change that you were going to call for was the need to overcome white norms. Which sometimes go beyond the norms as such as suggested simply being white is enough or acceptable or forgivable behavior. Can you say more about that . I think that one kind of racist idea is what i call assimilation of ideas. These ideas normalize what people and suggest that every other racial group should be striving to become white and the closer they are to being white, the more and better they are. The other side of that is assimilation ideas that to standardize what white people consider to be a civilized society. And then the society is created based on white norms and white standards. Everyone else is asked to assimilate in that civilization. Even when we are thinking about antiracist society, we should not be thinking about it from the standpoint of what is the standard for white people. Particularly in a nation thats as diverse as the United States. We should be really thinking about a society that really brings in the perspectives and the standards of multiple groups of people because if we are not, then were not building an antiracist society. Up couple people are asking your personal experience with surviving and overcoming cancer and the lessons that you learned. How to be an antiracist. In talking about my diagnosis diagnosed in january of 2018 with stage iv colon cancer. As i went to the process of treatment i was actually writing on how to be an antiracist. So just reflecting on how we can understand racism and i began to see all these parallels between how we can understand racism through how Many Americans understand and treat cancer. First and foremost, the most obvious parallel for me as i did not want to believe that me in my mid30s, no risk factors, im a vegan. I dont smoke or drink regularly, had cancer. Thats not me. Thats those other people. Just like americans say im not racist. Im a democrat. Im a liberal, a northerner on this and that. Thats the first thought of obvious connection but i think theres also the connection of treatment so typically metastatic cancer which is what i have is typically treated with systemic and local treatment. We can treat metastatic racism, which are communities and this nation is suffering from with the same systemic and local treatment, the local treatment in which a physician would go in and surgically remove the tumors, the tumors of racial inequities. To get rid of that. To get rid of the racist policies behind those and then be able to stop there we would actually flood the body with antiracist policies that to reduce those inequities. Reduce those tumor cells of inequity that we cant even see. That can prevent a reoccurrence. I think the way we understand cancer or treat cancer should be the way we can understand and treat racism. Going back to the denial, people tell me all the time, you should not identify what she said or what she is doing or her as racist because its going to hurt her. There are americans every day right now who are being diagnosed with covid19, nobody is saying, lets not tell them they have covid19, or they have cancer or they have hypertension because its going to hurt them. Actually, diagnosing a person is going to help them. Thats the first step in them receiving treatment. Even though the treatment is going to be very hard. I think if we have the same mentality about racism and we also did not imagine were experts we could diagnose ourselves with covid or diagnose ourselves as not having hypertension a i wish we could continue this conversation, i have more questions and we have more questions that have come in but we are at a time i want to respect your time. I know you have another appointment right after this. We do need to close the call now but what an amazing conversation and i just want to tell you how grateful i am, how appreciative i am for your work and for your taking the time to share these really powerful and important insights with all of us. Thank you so much for this conversation and thank you so much for joining us here today. Youre welcome, diana, im really excited to have had the opportunity to converse with you im a huge fan of your work and the work of your organization and this is an issue obviously that i really hold dear. There are numbers of forms of justice that we need in this country and certainly housing justice is at the top. Absolutely. Thank you so much again, and thank you to all of you who join today i think nearly 5000 people on todays call. I really appreciate all of your interests and i really encourage and urge you all to continue this conversation in your committees. I hope youll read all abductor candies books and articles and i hope each of us will commit ourselves to the work of antiracism. I also hope that all the people who join the call today will join us at the National Housing coalition in our work to achieve an equitable response and recovery to this and all disasters and in our work to end homelessness and housing poverty once and for all. Please visit our website which is nlihc. Org you can become involved in our work on covid19, housing and homelessness and beyond. Thank you all so much for joining us. Thanks again doctor abtake care, stay healthy, and goodbye for now. You are watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readers. Hi everyone, welcome to this the final Virtual Event for the Online Edition of the paper plant literally for festival. Im here with Marie Mockett author of american harvest will return to the book annemar in
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