Talk about how it compares with connect to the pandemic there were living through right now, right here in april 2020 and so many of us are at home, working at home, living at home and children outplace in science takes on the covid19 virus. Im so fortunate to have a truly skilled and knowledgeable colleague, a scholar who has many histories, archaeology and geography, john hustler is the director of the collection of the library of congress on early america. He is author of a book recently called published by the library of Congress Called collecting for a new world. John is also a distinguished curator in the librarys geography and map division an expert in mapping in general, how does mapping fit in with all of this, he is an advisor to the number of leadingedge institutions in this country as they attempt to track the spread of covid19 and understand how it moves through populations and time. John, welcome. Thank you, great to be here. Thank you for joining me. Lets start with history, the first recorded pandemic in the history of this hemisphere was a small pandemic that came on the ships of the spaniards in the 1500s and tore through the indigenous population of the americas in the early part of the century, what had been your experience with smallpox before that. This is a really complex and interesting question, there had been a number of scholars in recent years that had gone back and looked at the death records from france and italy to actually seem to track the mortality rate and what to expect of smallpox in european populations. This is well before the conquest in the middle ages and into the early modern period. What they found, even though the mortality rate was fairly high, 20 30 for the virus which is the virus will be talking about, there didnt seem to be any largescale epidemics, it seems to be very localized, it seems 20 30 of the people died in the rest made got the disease and recovered you developed immunity to it. The smallpox is an interesting virus, it has a lot in common with covid19 but there is a lot that is very different, has lots of different animal host, its related to cowpox and monkeypox in a whole series of other diseases and viruses. The revolutionary question for the smallpox virus, why is it only is a virus that is only found in humans but as far as the European Experience beforehand, people who died it was an important disease but they dont seem to have any largescale pendant makes. And europeans including the spanish, had they become immune to it when it first arrived. Thats an interesting question, the virus itself has a particular history as far as backup, modern science started to look at the genomics of the smallpox in bacteria. John surviving parts. But what is been found is that smallpox that is in a particular mummy, have very much in common with the modern strain. Things like it change the timing and of kind of stuff. It shows that really this particular strain of smallpox, seems to have actually come between her come into existence in the 16th century. Justintime for impartation to the new world. The 20 percent, or 30 percent mortality rate. Many people, and additionally was immunity by the time they arrived in the america. Some of the europeans died of smallpox. Marie gone, we know from earlier chronicles, how have devastating this particular variety of smallpox was to the native population. Some historians say the 90 percent of all indigenous deaths which were considerable, and those years of the conquest were attributable to the smallpox. Could you tell us a little bit more about that predict. John this is really interesting. Some of the sources that we have, multimedia for example, is a chronicle, spanish chronicle, he arrived in 1524. He wrote basically a diary our memoir which was not actually published until 19 oh three. There were many scrubs until then. He merely talks about the actual mortality rate. He keeps talking about 50 percent. But some of the other sources the end like quarantine products and people like cortez himself, really talk in larger terms. Cortez complained about the bodies piled up in the streets. In the owner being so bad that you can actually stand walking through the streets. So not sure what the mortality rate was but it was certainly very high and much higher than 20 30 percent that we would be talking about in europe. The interesting thing is this is a peculiar timeframe that were dealing with here. From april 15 of 20 until about january 15th until januar january 2021 seems to be when the smallpox was really introduced. This is a very early source. They basically talk about and rights, a letter back to charles and says in august 1520, and this is the pristine mentioned that we have from the small box from a spanish source. It basically says that he was very surprised, there were there few people there and he attributed to them dying from smallpox. In a handsoff and finds there, then immediately upon the arrival, the expedition. That the native people were dying of small acts fairly rapidly. There is a fairly rapid thing but we dont really know what the numbers were exactly but is very high. Marie what fascinates me is how quickly as you say, it moved from that population. In my own research for my book the library of congress, there is clear from the chronicles that we know that there were traits up and down the coast, and latin america only know that the tribes were communicating with each other pretty Industry Trade it for because they were a war or some reason or another but in fact, the epidemic reached the coast of peru what is now peru and ecuador. An affected actually, the inca, they died of smallpox before the men arrived. Was this quick communication. John mother some really interesting actual, sources who visits this earliest manuscript, from the 17th century but the number of epidemics in the first when it talks about seems to describe smallpox and it actually is before the arrival. Just a few months before but i dont really know what is happening just the native population from the island. So one really important thing that he does tell us is he does say that the death that is occurring is exactly the same that he saw on the islands. So he definitely relates the two. And theres a story of the introduction of smallpox, possibly that is done by ethiopian slaves. A slave whod been with one of the expeditions, who actually introduced it. What is interesting is about that is theres only one source. And the rest of that is a copy from the source. An important aspect but the spanish were thinking of this disease if they actually had an idea how it could be translated by people who didnt have immunity. Something was going on here. So they were actually theorizing it. And trying to chronicle this in the earliest period of contract. But they were thinking about it. It. Marie so you work at the library of Congress John and you have and you are the director of this fantastic collection. And it is resident exhibit at the library. It is a collection of all kinds of artifacts the textiles and objects, of jade and also the things. Can you tell us, those artifacts, and wanted this chronicles and things, those objects but in the actually, did the educators and anyway about the pandemic of Health Disease spreads. John obviously theres some very important sources. Some of the actual indigenous persons themselves, extremely important ones that the corning codex which was put together by it has images and engravings that were in did you ands peoples writing like smallpox. In the earliest, image that we see of actual smallpox in the indigenous population. We have other things pretty at the library, the most importantly we have things like codex information which kind of shows that that mechanical information. We have copies of hernandez work who was a physician who was in spain on an expedition in the 1550s. In the 1570s basically chronicling indigenous medicine pretty chronicle over 3000 implants. They also Indigenous People who had died of smallpox it was an amazing source rated salon the sources, a lot of these sources that really kinda gives us insight into the indigenous minds as to what was going on in the world and help they face the world. How did they react to it. We talked about spanish and how they were reacting to it. But how did they react to it. What are they thinking of. I think like all populations like this they had their medicine, and own way of thinking about it and the critics continued lots of that other information. We also have actual sources which tell us about the plants that they are using. There is a certain kind of tomato that was climbing by in which the roots are prepared and used as something to help divert in smallpox. Hernandez basically tells them the name for this and various other uses for it. He also tells us that if it doesnt work, the only way to actually help cure the smallpox is to burn the gallbladder of some hummingbird so theres this mix of indigenous world about how they are reacting to disease from the start of spiritual side and to control their world through rituals but also a very detailed and extremely complex botany and promote kobe sources that they are trying to use. In any collection come the historical collection that are the library and other libraries around the world read here really important to looking at this to actually not only lenient the science and academics but what was the reaction. We see that here today. Even the maps that are being generated. We have all kinds ofs scientific mass of people generating but also in people who are doing drawings that are mock down. Lets perceive that their way and how they are feeling this time. Marie no course, when a novel virus appears, no medicine is equipped to deal with it. But the sophisticated exactly was these tremendously highly developed precolumbian empire, how sophisticated was the medicine. John is very sophisticated. The plans that they use, and other things that the use in order to develop medicine. This is something we dont really understand that well. Theres some really important manuscripts which really get deep into a botany and medicines. And a lot of them today, we see that they have properties for Certain Properties that are anesthesia and there is a movement for many years to look back at some of these traditional treatments for what is going on today. To help cancer treatments and things like that. So is very sophisticated were were not really sure exactly how it developed because the developing, when youre living in a place where they get different plants and you zoom in our two or three, Certain Properties, how you get there is the interesting question. What is empirical like that the Indigenous People dealt with this. But when the spanish arrived, there was quite a very healthy medicinal and way of looking at diseases and treatments. Besides the rituals. Marie so john, the question, medical sophistication actually brings us to the question of how did all of this to the present day. What can history tell us about what is going on right now and what we are going through right now. We really know with any certainty about the patterns of disease in early americas and what does that history really teaches about about the viral spread of covid19 today. John i think one of the interesting things, specifically one can look through the patterns of vital transmission. Obviously we dont have maps from the americas but we do have these ideas of how the virus spread. We had letters, knowledge through which written source, we also look back in the history. The people who look back into the records of the european transmissions. And we can begin to get a sense, eager about science about what is going on. They have something that you see in europe and that is not really causing a large pandemic. Its a really feeling epidemic and people dying. And then we see that the death records are telling us that they had periods of global implications. And then we see this incidental knowledge that is coming through. It is telling us that people are going in the americas. Their these ideas from the early spanish chronicles and some of the of how this disease is being transmitted. We get a sense of how the way it is moving and in the timeframe. We started looking at it from a scientific perspective however especially today. Theres a lot more scientific tools that if you look at itself in the case of smallpox, the archaeological evidence combined with ancient dna in the technology we have today, gives us a real sense of how those historical sources are correct or incorrect. However it may be. But the kind of gives the package of the way that these things actually occurred and how it spread. Other sources, as we get into effect academics that have occurred through expiration of the americas, we see more or regular a sense of how this has spread. But obviously, is not as good of smut we have today. But we are looking at and how we are trying to map in figure out the spread of covid19 and where covid19 came from. Marie so studying and analyzing like the great influenza of 1918 or hivaids or sars. Its actually predict patterns of infection. In just a great part of your career john, in a study of math and mapping. And youre now working with a number of organizations that are mapping covid19. And as originally transmitted from an animal has. Realize this is ongoing work. And theres much to study the distance to be done. Tell us what exactly mapping has told us about covid19 so far. John what is interesting about this, the situation now where because we have a worldwide pandemic, we have laboratories all of the world there keeping secret dna. Were getting really good sense of what the overall genetic structure in the genome of the covid1covid19 covid19 is pres interesting start of a larger group of coronavirus is. Card and mini crown in london, or latin and that really it looks like a crown and it has the spis coming out of it. And its hard larger family of viruses which for the most part, its in the box, like horseshoe bats for the most part. And what we have really found the sequence of the new polio and amino acid sequence of covid19 which is actually sars go into. In the original name of it. 96 percent of that genome is actually found in about. And we actually obtain species pretty people believe it actually came from about. Making the crossover to human beings. And with that mechanism of the customer is does not really well. But what is allowed us to do is to as time goes on and goes around the world, and sequence begins to develop what is called the silent genetic trait. And is made up of a couple of things. Basically it shows where the test was done in fact, a person in new york or seattle or trenton or somewhere in europe has tested. So we have a location. We also had a time so we have a location and time and we have the actual genome and what we are trying to do, what we are actually trying to map the mutation through time and through space. In the case of covid19, when you look at the figures that are on the screen and you see the actual biomes in time. We can look at some of the really important moments here. We can see the rise of it and the purple that you see is the transmission through china. And when we start looking at the trait, you can see that there are red and there really the transmission to north america. And to the united states. Theres two groups, one at the top and one of the bottom. And what is interesting with the map tells us for example is the part that changes in seattle, the initial and in illinois are actually from china. They had a mutation that are very much like the chinese virus but the one that is at the top, is really from europe and it has mutations that come from european strain. So we can sort of see and get an idea, a very detailed idea that you can never before. This is really new technology and really mapping this pandemic in a way that we have never really done before. In the details that we get. These are genetic trees are kinda built by very complex algorithms. Mutations in the virus. But this the sort of historical metaphor because the genetic tree base that you saw before the heart is like i said, based on the mutations and kind of are accumulating in the virus. And they are very much like in the medieval historian would look at the manuscript and the same kind of manuscript as it goes through time and space and you can kinda get a sense of heres the initial manuscript and here is how it changed. And because this era happens to be in a manuscript the came from germany, and also the manuscript that is in england that he would say the cable is a place. They have the same errors of the errors came through and to some extent, thats what we are doing here with a viral map. It is a lot of data being put out. If there is some really amazing organizations like gis, aig, who are basically making this data on the sequence Data Available in real time. And so there are people all over the world who are able to work on this project. Marie so john, the slings are really remarkable. Theres no interesting ballistic at brief moment to talk about the book you have written and at the publishing office. It is called collecting for a new world pretty and it describes colombian artifacts. What role does the library or any library or archive have in the ongoing business of mapping and understanding covid19. Can you make those connections for us pretty. John i think you definitely can. Every archive in the Library Collects for a reason. And while talking with the precolumbian collections at the library of congress, other collections as well. Item a shot of the line between contact. Material and precolumbian material. In the material when you look at it as a whole, is really the beginning of a snapshot of relate to important moments in the history of the world. If what we think about when must a man in our europeans to arrive in the americas. And the Indigenous People to have the americans, the europeans arrived. Like no other historical moment that either group probably faced. So linking that material really gives us insight not only into the sort of broader history and big events but kind of into how the real lives of those people reacted. How artisans looked at it. What might be considered people like hernandez, the sciences of the day. National historians of the day. Then if you do have a picture of a moment in time. And bring the situation now which is really no different. When were talking about the covid19, we obviously have mobilized a huge amount of scientific and geospatial and biological research trying to fight what is the profound historical moment for the world. It is something that is really never seen before. He certainly never in our lifetimes. Over the lifetimes of several generations before us. The closest thing in any recent times is of course the 1918 flu pandemic. But i think in this period, has the same role. We are going to collect the mapping and the data is from about how scientists are trying to actively connect the genome. There actually trying to fight the disease. This is the really obvious things. But also the library, and library of congress, are working are doing this pretty and the cultural moment. The photographs, collect peoples thoughts, collect peoples drawings, collect how it is that they fought through this moment in time. Theres been some great mapping of the web in several news organizations have been picked up the markdown maps pretty people are going the maps of their neighborhoods and how theyre perceiving them now. Theyve also cultural information. My dog likes to walk, this is where i used to get a treat from a dog. But now they are closed. The library of congress, the institution of they have the responsibility in the library as well as great places that take that responsibility seriously. Both from a scientific side and from the cultural side. And a huge hard to play not perhaps at the very moment but certainly as we get through this, we can begin looking at what happened. Marie is really an extraordinary testament to start of the memory bank, that an institution like this can be. A great Cultural Institution that actually can shout out something that has come before. Epidemics will come and go and pandemic to come and go pretty and really this is so relating to see how they can connect for us. We have some questions that came in from some tweets john that i want to say. From around the country. Here is one from cleveland, ohio. My name is caroline, im a historian of the european history have a question is, how will historians be able to write about this pandemic of 2019, 2020 without the political nature and controversy over covid19 revisionism. John thats a tough question. I think we have the same problem with almost any event that there trying to write about that has importance to peoples lives. Obviously, any of those are us who have been informed of what is going on right now, theres an differential and how covid19 is affecting different populations. Geography affects, there is a different effects pretty innocence, no different than any other historical events. Historians will take new perspectives. They will publicly in the end, have more evidence for earth shattering event what they have had for a what anything historians will be get down to the business of doing the work. An object to agree this another question. Other history in itself, matter how it is written, is completely objective. That is an open question but i think historians will get it down to doing the hard work of writing about what happens. And the mistakes that were made. In the things that were done. In any world shaking event, there are going to be the lordheroes and villains. I think people in historians will look at the library of congress. We collect all of the evidence the mechanic turned out to them to interpret. Marie heres a question from california. What is the transmission of diseases look like at the time of the expeditions. In 1770 pretty was that made it pretty to that first group of explorers bring the disease with imported income with later waves of europeans. John thats an interesting question. I think theres a couple of answers to that. I do believe that they did bring that disease with him. Two different groups, one who were really affected by both the measles and smallpox those martin by that Expedition Party there is an amazing diary which give a really sort of day by day almost interpretation of the two years that expedition was pretty think it was two a little bit longer. It was traveling in the region. And in the early part of that is narrated very well. And it really actually even talks about the individual was perspectives them is really great resource. But those two groups were affected nearly immediately on the arrival of the expedition. And one of the things that has not been really well studied obviously smallpox is something that it tracks, historians. And the flu pandemic of 1918 has been very well researched. Theres been some great books written on it. For some of the smaller contacts in the fact that he had on these more mobile indigenous groups as you mentioned marie all the way down into peru. If not really been written about in a really detailed way. Someone of a good moment right now now that were in involving into the covid19. What kind of sources can we be looking at this. Both looking at the sources that we have from the. And using modern research and ancient dna to enlighten us really have this disease has moved through these periods. Marie john, thank you so much for this conversation. There are very few people who can range from history, precolumbian history to covid19 undersigned. Mapping it and chasing it down. And see how its going and where its going. We are very grateful for you and thank you for joining us here at the book festival event. John thank you for having everybody stay safe. Marie thank you and exactly. Television has changed since cspan began 41 years ago our mission continues. To provide an unfiltered view of governments, ready this year we invite you primary election coverage, the president ial impeachment process and now the federal response to the coronavirus. It was on cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online, or listen on a freak radio app. And be part of the National Conversation to cspans daily washington journal program. Work through social media feed pretty cspan, created by private industry predict americas Cable Television company is a Public Service and write you today your television provider. Long time diefenbaker is the coauthor of this new book, it is called hop skip go
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