Hello. Im cant hate, the library of congress and welcome to our very First Virtual National Book festival presents. As with all collectively face the challenge of the pandemic, the safety of our staff members, our visitors, our scholars is our First Priority at the library of congress. And so were following this cdc recommendations and guidelines in all of our buildings are close to the public until further notice. However, it is the liberia submission to engage and connect with our users. And so we have been rolling out various programs virtually for parents and teachers, scholars, students and everyone who could benefit, we hope, from our resources online. And so please visit our website llc. Gov for more useful information, not only about was going on currently, but also things that you could use during this time. Now to our events. We will be joined by bestselling author john barry who will be discussing his book the great influenza the story of the deadliest pandemic in history. He will be joined in conversation by mr. David rubenstein, cochair of the National Book festival and author of the american story. Conversations with master historian. Please join me in welcoming mr. John barry and david rubenstein. [applause] we are here with the john barry. John, want to thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. I realized at one of the more popular people in the United States because of the book you wrote, the great influenza which i highly recommend. Well talk about this book. But what prompted you to write a book about the great influenza in 2004 that was so long ago, people who then were not focus on these kinds of things . Thats to longer question for for this show actually. But what it was a kid i wanted to do two things. I wanted to be a scientist, doing medical research, and i wanted to be a writer. I actually remember the moment in time. I was 13, 14 years old when i decided i would abandon science and the, writer. So i always had that interest. Just seems like like a good idt the time. I read the book recently as a told you have day. I had not read it before unembarrassed to say but it would recently at a couldnt put it down because its an incredible story about what happened in 1918 1918 and whate to do is take us to that story and then see how that compares to whats going on now. Lets go through the story. Initially its called the great influenza. When did that come about . Its probably the first title that i picked for any book or article that ive ever written in my entire life. Im not very clever and searching for a title. I suggested that one. Nobody had a better. It was not called that at the time. It was referred to as the spanish flu. Talk about that. It was called the spanish flu by many people, but from the point of view of spain, thats not very fair because it didnt start its bank to why was it called the spanish flu . Spain was not at war, so it didnt censor its press, and the war warring countries all did. Did. The u. S. With more self censorship. When the first wave came which is actually quite mild in the spring of 19 18, spain was pretty hard hit and the king himself got sick, which of course generated attention all over the developed world. So they begin writing about it and called it spanish flu. Lets talk about the time you took to write this book. Its very, very thorough in the scientific parts come into epidemiology part of it. How long did it take you to research this and to write this book . Seven years. Seven years. Did you publisher say from time to time its taking too long or he or she didnt say that . My publisher is from new orleans and she liked one of my prior books, so she gave me some she was patient. I did not think the book would take anything like that when i started it. I really believed at most it would take two and a half years. But i got pretty deeply into it and it just kept going and going. As we talk today you in new orleans now . Is that we live . I am in the french quarter. Very deserted. Talking about the great influenza as you called it, known as the spanish flu to some, how many people actually died to the best of our knowledge during that influenza . Best estimates in the first person to come up with was a nobel laureate. Its been confirmed by epidemiologists much more recently, 50100,000,000 people worldwide that if you adjust for population that 225oh hundred 50 Million People today. It was a very lethal outbreak. The United States about 675,000 people died. So when did it first surfaced in the United States . In your book it seemed indicate it came from kansas but is that clear that it originated in kansas . I had a hypothesis when i researched it, the book. I thought i may even have located its site of origin, en recited the journal article on that. It still may have started in kansas, but a lot of research has been done since my book came out and i backed off that hypothesis myself. I think its more likely china but a lot of hypotheses are vietnam and france, new york city is a possibility. We dont know where it started and we probably will never know. Wherever it started it surfaced initially in military barracks, is that correct . It actually first surfaced in a small county, real chances county. Joseph first reported outbreak of lethal influenza anywhere in the world. January 1918. You could attract people who went from that town to what is now fort riley, and people and the femmes had pneumonia. They arrived at fort riley and 48 hours just the incubation period back, influenza 48 hous later, fort riley largely erupted in a pretty serious outbreak. But compared to the fall outbreak, it was still fairly mild. In this outbreak it began to go from soldier to soldier soldiers were ready to go to europe for world war i. Was at how it spread from soldier to soldier who were in close confines . It did, yeah. It wouldve happen anyway. Pandemics have occurred, influential pandemics threat history in the 1600s made it from europe to north america. So i dont think the war was a major factor but as i say it wouldve sprayed anyway. It didnt go from one army camp to another, infected more than half of the army camps in the spring. They carried it to europe, and spread from there. So when the soldiers were going to europe theyre going in hardships, very close confined, though ships. That probably helped spread among the sailors and soldiers and then into europe as well . That begin a really serious problem. The ships on the second lethal weight of abandonment, those troop ships became horrific places, almost floating coffins. Did the military Senior Leadership begin to recognize there were problems that other soldiers were getting an influenza . Some of them were dying from it. What did the Senior Military Leadership do about the . Pretty much nothing. They were in conflict, the Army Surgeon General who was really a terrific physician, scientist, Public Health person come he was almost at war with the Army Leadership over this issue. But they largely ignored him. So did wilson himself, the present. When did he go into the civilian population . What large cities didnt go to . East coast more than a west . There was a spring outbreak in new york city which was actually at the time it wasnt notice. Its been noted since then carefully, Epidemiological Research that actually got in february and possibly late january, even before the occurrences on the troop come in the military camps. Thats why say it wouldve sprayed anyway. But the influenza that broke out, when people got this, in some cases they survived obviously by the many cases they came that with such pains and diseases that they died in ways how to horrific, as you describe in your book. Correct. Leading out of her eyes and ears. Why was that. Was we have to distinguish between the first wave which was generally mild and the second lethal weight which began in september, and most places in the world. And those symptoms were horrific. As you said you could believe that only from your nose and mouth, and military camps some 50 of soldiers were bleeding from the nose but you could also bleed from your eyes and ears. You had the disease misdiagnosed condition as cholera, typhoid dengue because of the symptoms presented with come not normally associate with influenza. People could turn so dark blue from lack of oxygen called cyanosis that i quoted one physician writing a colleague saying he had difficulty distinguishing African American troops from white troops because there called away but so soon d that spread rumors of black death. When this was going on did epidemiologists and other researchers say this is something we should solve with a vaccine . What research was done . Exactly what you said. They knew a lot about bacteriology. They did know whether a virus was just a tiny bacteria or an entirely different kind of organism. It was a hypothesis that it was caused by a particular bacteria, which still has a name influenza associated with it. But, of course, it wasnt. They were able to develop vaccines against, though they did not get widely distributed, against pneumococcus. If you get pneumonia with vaccine shot today its a Straight Line distance of what was developed back then. They basically tried everything that they could think of. Obviously since it was primarily viral disease and the backing, can any bacterial vaccines did not get widely distributed, none of those therapeutics worked. They did try things that were doing right now such as convalescent serum. That probably had some effect. None of the scientific studies were well done. They knew that at the time. They were not well controlled because they were in the same chaotic situation that we are today and they were more concerned saving someones life and the controlled study. In the first wave, it wasnt quite as bad as a second wave but what was that the republic the second wave was so much more lethal . Wasnt just the virus has become stronger and strengthen in that way . That would be my theory. I dont really see another explanation. The two ways were so different. There is a small minority virologists who think they were different viruses but i think the evidence is absolutely overwhelming that they were the same virus and thats the consensus view among virologists. It turns out that the virus from 1918, it seemed to affect younger people more than older people. Why would that be the case . In those cases, oddly enough peoples and new systems were largely responsible for the overreaction. When youre younger you had a stronger immune system. The virus, it was getting into the long, the immune system was throwing every weapon at it, the virus. The battlefield was the lungs. The lungs were being destroyed in that battle. Even on the backfield pneumonia, the virus was stripping the defenses of the body in ways that are unique, not entirely unique actually. As this was going forward, did the press in the United States say this is a terrible thing and we have to worry about this and do something about it, or did the press not cover it that much . Well, because we were at war and because there was this infrastructure for the war effort that it already been created, to give out nothing but good news, the press echoed national Public Health. There was no tony fauci back then. National Public Health leaders were saying this is ordinary influenza by another name. Precautions are taken. Local city officials were routinely echoing that. They were minimizing it. In addition, the press also echoed that. For example, in phoenix they wrote a little bit about it when it was in boston, which was the First American city hit by the lethal second wave. They wrote less about it when it was in new orleans. When it was actually in phoenix he read the phoenix newspapers, theres not a word about it. Hardly any mention. Again, the whole attitude was depressing anybody what are the war effort so lets focus on the war, put a lid on any press on. As the bodies are growing, more and more dead bodies, where are they going . People recognize theres a lot of dead bodies coming around. How did they explain that and where did they get buried . Its finally, its not funny but to give you an example here in philadelphia at a time with her actually taking mass graves and when they finally belatedly closed schools, saloons and so forth, churches, one of the newspapers actually said, this is not the Public Health measure. You have nothing, no cause for alarm. But people knew obviously. They are taking mass graves, closing everything. Their neighbors dine 24 hours after the first symptoms, sometimes with horrific symptoms. They knew perfectly well this was not ordinary influenza and led to a real frame of society. Lets talk about you mentioned earlier president wilson. Did president wilson make any statements about this . What did he say about . Not one word. Never did he make a single Public Statement about this pandemic, as far as he was concerned it was a distraction from the war. The reason he didnt do it was because he wasnt convinced of the problem or he didnt want to detract from the war . He was obsessed with the war. Strange person. He would focus on something and that would be it. Dog with a bone, the war was all he cared about. He went to paris to help resolve the war. He spent roughly six months there. Did he contract the virus when he was a . He did. One of the unusual complications of the 1918 virus was dental disorders. Even to the extent mental disorders. Even the people of oliver sacks wrote about in the wakening prophesies that was a result of the 1918 pandemic. Wilson had a 103 degrees fever. We had influenza. Everybody around them commented about how disoriented he was. Hes held firm to the principles that the u. S. Had gone to war over before he got sick. After he got sick he couldnt remember anything. As i say he was disoriented and ended up caving in. So in other words, the positions that he wanted was more punitive towards germans them what wilson had wanted. Those positions prevailed and how did that work out in the end . You had it exactly right. Thats what clemens want on practically every point. John maynard keynes called wilson the greatest fraud on earth after the peace treaty. The course of the Second World War probably came about because of some of the to do things against germany lets go to the next subject, which is one of the lessons that you took away from the work that you did . What lessons would be applicable to today from what you did in your research and writing . There were two lessons. The first is the best way to handle an outbreak like that is for the leadership to tell the truth. Transparency was absolutely crucial. And the second lesson sort of gross out of the first, kind of impossible to get without the first. And that is, most of the citys in the United States did a lot of what we are doing today, social distancing, closing schools and so forth. But the ones who did it later after the virus was already widespread in the community was too late to any significant effect. The citys that did it earlier before the virus really got widespread hat in much greater circumstance during the pandemic. Certainly the phrase flatten the curve, which we all are too familiar with almost now, it definite slant flat the curve e citys. In some cases the deaths were actually less possibly because of that. Epidemiology is more it is presumed that was in 1918. 1918. Have people gone back to a modern skills and techniques and look at what happened in 1918 and said it wasnt the influenza, it wasnt a virus, it was something else. What have you learned by going back with modern skills and analyzing what happened . Exactly what i said earlier. On the lessons, went about 15 years ago the Bush Administration after bird flu service and many other governments around the world launched a major effort to prepare for a pandemic, and i was asked to participate. And there was a pretty Detailed Analysis of what cities did in 1918, and the conclusions were what i articulated a moment ago. You do it early before the virus is widespread and you can have impact. If you wait until a lot of people start dying, too late. Virus is already so deeply seated in your community, the impact is much less. So that a message the somebody would take away from your book and you would like them to take what is you want wt government faced direct access from and be honest with people. Is that your main point . Yes. Unless you do that, when you finally close down schools and businesses and ask for people to heed your warnings and advice, they are not going to do it if you hadnt been up front with them at the beginning. Back in 1918 and today, still social distancing is probably the most effective thing that somebody could do. Is that fair . Absolutely, without a doubt. You are as we talk about in new orleans right now. What are you doing to socially distance yourself from this problem . Well, we do go for walk outside. Thats quite safe. Other than that, really dont do much of anything. Fortunately with what i do, i work at home, although right now im involved in a couple of groups, one on messaging to try to get people to comply with groups that are not complying. The other is an International Group of scientists, epidemiologist. I spending a lot of time on that. We dont really do anything though. Im over 70 so im at risk. I fortunately have some younger friends who volunteer to even go to the market for me so i dont even have to do that. I dont want to make it sound like your next book might also be indicating a future disaster that might arise, but what is your next book . Should we assume youre going to predict some other great prices that might happen by writing another book . What are you working on next . I was working on a book on the louisiana coast, everything that has gone into making the louisiana coast a disaster. We have lost roughly 25 of louisiana coast, 2000 square miles, about the size of the state of delaware. What has helped create that land loss includes, starts more than 2000 miles of river on the missouri. It is at the banks that are going on right now on site, and, of course, then you have Global Warming and sea level rise. So i sort of see it as a narrative history that also is a narrative of Global Warming. In the great influenza book with a few questions sent to my email but before we conclude that we give you one or two of them if you can answer them here one of them is from rockford, illinois. What individual group provide the biggest positive effect with the 1918 pandemic . Was or some group or individual you would like to site is having done the best job, that tony found jeff estate . There was no tony fauci but the American Red Cross certainly behaved admirably and Health Care System all medical work has missed their lives, many doctors and nurses died as unfortunately may happen today. So another question we have is from florida. What was some of the newspapers saying about the virus that turned out to be sensationalized . What kinds of fears were spreading through the population, and how did the media response . I listen earlier the media really said almost nothing about it. They completely minimized it, which turned out to spread more. The unknown is the scariest thing. You go to a monster movie, much more frightening when your imagination is at work than when the monster appears on the screen. Okay. From arlington, virginia. My greatgrandmother, identified at the time, died in the 1918 pandemic in a very small village in the Adirondack Mountains of new york. What unlikely scenarios of how it had got to the adirondacks . I mean, a virus like this virus is going to get a door in the world. It really basic is no escape from it. Okay. And from oregon a question is i would like to know how Congress Worked during that time, did Congress Work during that pandemic and did members of congress ever do much about it . Again, washington was focused on the war. They did pass an appropriation for Public Health and so forth and so on. That was about all they did. So today if somebody has the time to read your book, which i highly recommend, they will learn a lot more detail about it. But let me just mention, as give up one of the Unsung Heroes or one of the more Unsung Heroes, the epidemiologist at chicago and your book, though some hopkins and the rockefeller institute, not rockefeller university. These people were slavishly to come up with a vaccine but why did not succeed . Why do did not come up with a vaccine . How can we dont have a vaccine yet for the current pandemic . Number one, they did know what causes so you cant develop a vaccine unless you know what the pathogen is. Number two, as weve learned since we still have a great vaccine against influenza, because its one of the most rapidly mutating viruses in existence. It is very difficult to develop vaccine. I think theres been actually a lot of progress in the last ten years or so towards a vaccine that will work against all influenza viruses, or most all of them so you have to get a new vaccination every year. Theres been enough progress, that that goal is likely to be cheap but its still out there. You are, a person of resume he gets a flu shot every season . Yes. And you highly recommend those as well. Was yes, because even though they are not tremendously effective like the measles vaccine or yellow fever, at 100 or close to it, influence is much less than that but even if you still get sick after getting vaccinated it is much more likely to be a much more mild attack than would otherwise be the case. The final question is, dr. Fauci has said it is likely when this receives a bit is likely to come back in the winter perhaps. Do you have any views on whether that is likely to happen and it is likely to be more virulent than today . I see no indication that it be virulent. Im looking for that. In 1918 even though the first wave was generally mild, there were always hence, and you know, you could see in retrospect and even at the time that there was tremendous virulence in that i respect there isnt the slightest hint anywhere in the world that this virus has a capacity, thankfully. In terms of the timing, id say this virus is going to be a forever. It will be a new human disease. It is certainly going to come back. I do think that we have a very good shot at getting a vaccine for it, a good vaccine. Its much more stable than the influenza virus, and therapeutic drugs, then when its gone around a couple of times, peoples and new systems will provide much more natural protection that is the case right now. John, i want to thank you very much for helping us understand better what the Current Situation is and what the situation was in 1918. And again, i really enjoyed your book and a look for to reading your next book. Hopefully it wont predict another problem that arises. Hopefully it will be a lesser problem that arises about the book youre working on that thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. I certainly enjoyed it. Thank you. Sign up today for cspans newsletter word for word providing updates daily to the coronavirus Pandemic Response from state governors, the White House Task force briefings and important updates from congress. Signup today. Its easy, easy. Are cspan. Org and enter your email in the word for word signup box. While the pandemic continues your members of congress are working from their home districts. Many of my folks, 30 , are ones that are at the automotive industry. The other majority of what i would call your frontline workers. Now to consider essential workers. I hope people dont forget, these are the folks that help put food on the table and folks demand 15 minimum wage. Its important to highlight their the ones are now i think keeping us afloat. This a very, very serious issue. What ive been telling people is please listen to the federal authorities, state authorities, the local authorities, experts and you, just they way from people right now. I see this as a law and in in a state is at war with this virus. Stay in touch using the new updated cspan congressional directory. It is all the Contact Information youll need to connect directly with your u. S. Senator or representative. Order your copy online today at cspan store. Org. The u. S. Senate is about to gavel in for a short session meeting every few days while senators work from the home sts due to the covid19 pandemic to the senate is a sketch return legislative work on monday. Live now to the senate floor here on cspan2. The presiding officer the senate will come to order. The clerk will read a communication to the senate. The clerk washington, d. C. , april 30, 2020. To the senate under the provisions of rule 1, paragraph 3, of the standing rules of the senate, i hereby appoint the honorable john cornyn, a senator from the state of texas, to perform the duties of the chair. Signed chuck grassley, president pro tempore. The presiding officer under the previous order, the Senate Stands adjourned until 3 00 p. M. , on monday, may 4, 2020
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