One of them because and in my script but im going to call her out is megan came some of you may not know her but she runs a Science Technology and Innovation Program and is responsible for the schools we have on friday to teach the staff about cyber and Artificial Intelligence and todays genius would be ben buchanan is our go to guy when we teach those and been trying to teach me for a while. I think that ive been a repeater at all times. I am getting i getting is that n analog brain and i thank them for his patience. He is a global fellow and he will discuss his latest books right now called the hacker and the state. Spoiler alert, theyve changed the world. He says of cyber obligation thee now indelibly part of the operations and the gap between the United States and other countries has narrowednd abconsiderably. To hack a Million Dollars worth against the bank to the maligned activities from the disinformation to electric in ukraine. As a former member of congress, that would be me, who tried to ensure our Technical Intelligence collection tools were legal and regularly reviewed by experts to prevent abuses. I salute him for the kind of teaching that he is doing to office staffers. The contribution that he has madeine is colossal. My theory problems are digital and the Wilson Center is trying to change that. Here to moderate a conversation is Courtney Kube of nbc news. A correspondent covering National Security and the military and spend a lot of time reporting on the intelligence into digital issues we are discussing today especially interference. It means a lot that she would come here to talk about the ongoing primary election. Thank you so much. I have one thing that involves the rest of you and that is i got an early copy and im one of the few that have the luxury of being able to read and we are lucky to have him here t to tell us a little bit more about it. Since most people in the room havent had the chance to breed can you give an overview of the thesis of the book . Is from the blue, cyber 9 11 and the thesis is the wrong way to look b at it. It is daily and part of the way in which the nations compete and project power so what i want to do is take the discussion that is very academic and medical theoreticalde and say these are the stories of combination pack one another and this is what it means for the International Intl systems of every chapter is a different way that they protect power in cyberspace from the fiberoptic cables to encryption to hacking banks iner cash and blackouts and beyond and i want to tell the story of what happensha every day. Mass casualties, chaos. You are looking at the space in between. We will get into some of the specific cases but how would you characterize how did that generally with today . If you are waiting with planes crashing into cities burning you missed the activities that matter the most and that actually happened and what we do see between the nations is persistent, pervasive espionage United States, china, russia. We see the blackouts caused and what i call the destabilization being the primary example of the nation saying we are going to use these tools to interfere in the adversaries and these are the three sort of categories of activity espionage, attack and almost everything we see fit into one of those buckets and very little of it involves casualties. Usyou would say they are more pervasive and less restrictive than in the past. Guest they are insidious harm that happens and it is closer to the Climate Change than it is to a forest fire. He also explaineyou also expe book one of the major reasons is sort of an endless struggle to dominate, for domination over other countries and potentially even over the world. Do you still believe that is true and has just become harder to prevent than it was in the past . Venetians are getting more aggressive so this is the study of whats has happened between te nations and let me see if they are Getting Better and if we look at russia you can go back ten or 15 years and they were in contrast russia was the one that would be methodical and slow and hide behind the radar and what we have seen since the then as theyve gotten much more aggressive and capable. Capable. I mentioned the blackout in ukraine andve Everybody Knows about the interference but theres other cases, too. The attack probably the most destructive cyber attack in history Something Like 10 million in damage around the world and that is the lowend estimate also perpetrated by russia is so not only are they Getting Better but they are also more aggressive. You mentioned ukraine in 2015 and 2 2016. What do you believe after this research what do you believe the goal was and was it for the destructive measures . The firstever publicly known caused by the cyber attack is it avpears they did less damage than they could have and this leaves the question what were they trying to do if it wasnt an allout attack what are they trying to do and there are two possibilities. We are finding the capabilities thacapabilitiesfor the usecapabd second is this the kind of signal but this is shown saying to ukraine or to the world we have this capability. R the thing that you have long feared a and what is remarkable rlespecially about the 2016 blackout is it was automated and more scalable and seems it could workan against the american powr systems as well with modifications and that maybe a suggestion this is now a capability in the arsenal we are not afraid to use it. Did not allow the United States or others the ability to put in some sort of a preventative measure so that it couldnt happen in the u. S. . It certainly showed some of how they were going to carry this out, could be different coa different capability certainly. Could the United States learn from it, also certainly possible. One hopes that when you see a hypothetical fear certainly its something that gets a lot of attention in the United States. It isnt perfect but its not all doom and gloom. Another thing that gets a lot of attention, the congresswoman mentioned bank packing. Can you tell us about that case because there are details i neverr heard about. It is a remarkable ambition which is this is a country that is the most isolated sanctioned country on earth and one of the ways is to hack other banks. To initiate the transfer is from the new york fed to those North Koreans controlled and what is a little bit funny about this is that made some typos so some of the transfers are blocked and they got 81 million instead of the almost 1 billion. I thought it might be the most expensive type of industry the North Koreans made. What is significant about the case is that it showed the ambition of north korea and sometimes the discussion stops there. I show in the book as it is a much Broader Campaign often with less success with a great deal of success with other very valuable crypto currency they also hacked atms all over the world and withdrew the money in a decentralized way silly characteristic of these operations as they continue to evolve and nowhere is that more true than in these operations. Host debate could you mean this is something that is a state sanctioned. The priority is one way they do it. This opens up the next question if they are risk tolerant today of a regime that doesnt seem to care about the International Norms and all what do you think they could do next . This is only a question and i dont want to say that its real but one hypotheticals thing that has been raised if they are comfortable deleting the transaction logs into the integrity of theeg Financial System to get cash, would they be comfortable manipulating the transaction and interfering in the integrity of the Financial System to do damage and i think anything is how you these transaction records are at the core of the modern Financial System and at this point it is a hypothetical that one worry is they might come back not for the purpose of funding the regime but for the purpose of trying to punch back against the west in some kind of crisis. You also talk about Cyber Espionage and there was one specific case i foundia fascinating can you tell us a little bit about how it started in evolve over time. Being the codename for this what was striking is there were many targets against the establishment. They were using spearfishing to get access to the computers of american officials and calling the information back and what is striking is that the nsa did. They said we have to stop this into the essentially figured out from which the chinese operatives that were part of the Peoples Liberation army. The hack to those computers and the network and develop network that was carrying out these operations and the Internet Company that was selling the Internet Service to look at the record and confirm who was behind these activities and they got advanced information in the obligations to come. Its the cat and mouse that happens. Its a daily competition. All of this was out of the public view. There was a stretch of how many years between the time the u. S. Was able to sort of count counter. Its worth saying this was much debate co one battle in april a campaign so this is one case in which the United States did very well and appears to have stopped the activity but there are any others that were uninhabited. Getting the plans for the warplane which was a cuttingedge plane being built in the u. S. And the hackers pulled out reams of information aboutt this plane. The information is so extensive they cant transport it even digitally back to china so they make the lists of the names and they go to thousands of pages and they take the names of the file fro from these experts are missing out of all of these files wfiles we could pull backe could read which ones are important and that gives a sense of theiv extensive reach of the espionage efforts. One thing i also found interesting in the example is these planes can you explain how that works and how the nsa was able to intervene . What is fascinating is its old cat and mouse and spy versus spy deception and one way they work to reading ouwere agreeingn is that they would hack the thirdparty countries and in the United States from those computers and what they had to do they had no idea that it was happening. Every nation takes precaution when its carrying out the Cyber Espionage and its allies as well. The russians had a thing that they were doing for a period of time where they would pack the communications and then they moved out of africa because they thought that it might not be looking. Western intelligence agencies were looking so it is a constant game of trying to hide your hand eo you get more freedom of observations. Another thing i found very fascinating not only was this an example of the nsa taking in offensive role and it paid off in the end. It was successful. And if you could indulge me for just a second and is short section when he describes the piecthepieces they were sloppy s demonstrating discipline and operational security. And they sometimes even involved in to check their stock portfolios. There are reasons that some of them are sloppy in this business. First is everyone has a boss and a budget. You can imagine that they want them to get more targets faster and they are going to be sloppy and take shortcuts. Second, they get bored and lazy and they decide the odds are exceptionally low. Why not see how the market is doing or other activities. And that sort of shows the human side of the business that we think of the person with a hoodie behind the keyboard they are alsbutthey are also checkinr facebook profiles. You focus quite a bit on the shadow brokers. Tell us about that and what you learned. Its probably the single biggest mystery in the world of cyber obligations and i thinknk every author has their onestory onestory. The shadow brokers are mine. I got pieces of a stor the stort we dont know all the details. What we do know is that some point in 2016 beginning in august of 2016 these incredibly powerful hacking tools started appearing and one was so powerful that the operator told the Washington Post that was like fishing with dynamite. And we dont know where it came from. It just came from a Mysterious Group and other platforms. It proceeded for about 11 months or so and continually posting into burning these tools and then it stopped and their theories about who did it and why they did it. Many people guessed that it was russian intelligence. It was a way of taking arrows held and handing itf to others. But what is remarkable about the case ithecases that led to devag cyber attacks. When the North Koreans, one by thee russian along with other capabilities and one was the most descriptive insider history withiv 10 billion of damage and it seems to have its roots even now to this day we dont know twho did it. Was this nothing more than a criminal enterprise . If they got paid enough money they would stop. One theory of the case as a former insider or contractor who decided this iss something they would do to try to get money and then disappear, and other theory of the case the masquerading of the criminal element is actually an intelligence operation. It is remarkable that we still dont know. It opens up another interesting idea when it comes to Cyber Espionage. It produced unique leads and it is based off of the ig report to question whether this was an efficient use of money and taxpayer dollars but i think we have quite a few congressional staffers to biscuits to the larger issue of the policy. And oversight of this. Is there enough oversight of u. S. Government Cyber Espionage and hacking . This is an activity that is complex. The world of cyber obligations as a particularly tricky business. Whats significant Cyber Command and military arm carries out american hacking operations also from integrating perspective keeping the adversary from doing whatsp they want to do and the question disc offers raises is that going to lead to escalation, is it going to work. These are hard to answer in publipublic that they are quests congress should be asking in the classified settings where it is more appropriate to ask and answer them. In your experience, and you do provide a lot of guidance to members, do you think that oversight at t this point is adequate and dors you think that theres enough attention and so much going on i always want attention and oversight. I think it is a question not just of the amount of oversight but how it can be complex given how the programs are and how complex some of the jurisdiction is and what makes intelligence activity overseen by the committee versus the armed service. We actually worked that out with withthe one thing that wask. Tht discussion of who oversees what. Does there need to be some sort of a standard rule of ethical practiceds that exists n specifically with hacking that needs to be adhered to . The broad question that is more pessimistic as can we get other nations to agree and have norms that way we have another 2 degrees of warfare and the way we have seen technologies emerge in the past and then we build up in arms tthe norms to try to coe them. I am skeptical of them and i think this is an opportunity where it serves the interests of all nations or the perceived to compete in cyberspace and the norms that have been outlined before by the un have been very high level in a very general. And i dont think they are constraining a part of the behavior. You have some of the nations that do the most destructive attacks on the u. S. And the west from iran to north korea, china, russia they dont seem to adhere oto the practices or norms. I think that is fair, yes. Because of that or they Getting Better and have they surpassed the United States in their capabilities . This is a p phrase you hear a lot the United States has the nicest rocks the place to live in a glossy house, so when it comes to intricate i dont use the word often, beautiful offense american capabilities are truly extraordinary. Talking about extraordinary intricate operations against the Iranian Nuclear program but that doesnt mean we can defend very well and we have a long vulnerability our adversaries havent been shybe in all. No better example than the recent indictment from the department of justice where they could hack the personal information of 140 million americans. This is a casefa in which most dont know the company exists. They are clearly not defending adequately but its reams of information about Many American adults into the chinese are more than happy to say we will just take that and that is the glasshouse element of this. I know this is more of a military side if we are talking of something inre one of the gry area at what point is the beginning of an actual cyber w war . Whatever we thought the point was we kept pushing attacks in 1999 the russian russians carri. And Espionage Campaign called9 moonlight maze Unclassified Networks and the deputy secretary of defense at the time came to congress with a classified briefing and said we are in the middle of a cyber war. This is what a cyber war was at the time and they really spun up the apparatus to figure out how toe respond. They didnt go to war but they got ready to push back. Now that seems almost passe. All along the way we said there must be some red lines whether it is doing a billion dollars in damage or killing someone or turning out the lights. Whether it is election interference. Time and timtime and time againt redefining this to allow more things to say it is closer to the side and one of the biggest questions in the administration the line input costs are we willing to bear. That is as far as they have been willing to say. Is this something they need to get involved and try to provide a kind of guidance . An actual response and then potentially to show the methods how they could determine it. That is on the biggest lessons can you figure out who did it . The conventional wisdom unlike the cold war is that they know where they are coming from and the thinking here is we dont know where the cyberattack comes from. Anyone could do this. But was it is striking is the complexity attribution but we make it seem harder than it actually is so take the sony hack north korea hack sony in 2014 to destroy those competing infrastructure according to one estimate get these juicy emails from Angelina Jolie then the questionie emerges who did this . The Us Government says it is north korea some say it wasnt we dont know but it was not north korea. It emerges with time the way they knew was certainty it was not north korea because United States was in the north korea networks. It is emblematic of how they do retribution is not just forensic evidence but also have one hacking h adversaries and that comes back to the broader theme of cat and mouse every single t day. And. Then to spy on north korea and that is afterthefact thats why like so much else in cyberspace it gets into my messy tangle of competition one more time. And the classification as well. Yes thats why some folks said thats not credible you have not proven the evidence. Do you say the us is Getting Better . For sure. Other nations as well . United states does its best but certainly to have counterintelligence success that was our russian operation that was the extraordinary counterintelligence through some unknown t mechanism through nsa files a great insight. So just talk about Election Security you have a fascinating story i think the audience would be surprised who was interfering in the election . I did not write it until i wrote it k t its the answer is britain and it is striking go back to 1940 it is a tense period in history, world war ii has begun the United States is not yet and u it and britain has a priority to get Franklin Roosevelt reelected he is a pro war democrat and they worry he will not win reelection so they try to r influence at the Republican Convention there are no primary shut they are trying to determine who the nominee will be then suddenly out of the bluee comes up whole sing a former democrat was leading and would be the favored republican choice. This was fabricated by British Intelligence in thehe beginning of an Extensive Campaign of a former democrat pro war republican at thear time with the republican nominee and then to get isolationist republican vote out of congress carrying out the campaign with the president ial election and what it shows is election interference is not new the soviet union has do it done it but what is new is hacking operations can supercharge they have them interfering in elections and hacking operations like the supercharge and that is striking thats i like so much about studying this stuff you can place an Historical Context to have much more appreciation. Talk about the advances what is the biggest threat for 2020 is there anyhe way they can have that disinformation or potential hacking . He they have two purposes one is to one convince a loser they have lost and they can interfere in either one they can try to change votes or change minds or cause chaos to get the winner to think that they want. That would present a lot of complexity on 2020 worry about operations that might happen that could perceive the legitimacy even if it is that interferes with the construct of power. Russia has shown with the cyberelections but what about the other potentials of china what is the biggest threat how they interfere in the election. China is tricky we just dont have the track record. The history tells us that election interference is something they have done for decades going back to the early days of the kgb. China doesntt have that track record there may have that motivation the capability but you know what if anything they will do in 2020 and that should cause policymakers to take a step back what we can find out between now and the fall to getil ready not just from russia but from around the world. Is there anything the us can do to stop . It is cat and mouse once more there are things we can do to improve Election Integrity everybody should vote on a verified paper ballot you need to show the voters intent most have this but not all. Afterthefact we should do the risk limiting audit to ensure the votes were counted properly there is a tremendous variety in the art of procedures statebystate and its important and to say we treat elections as a Critical Infrastructure and if you interfere in the election then we will respond. But that is having few consequences. You will get a chance to ask a question so think of some Great Questions so who do you think nationwide is the best or most effective dangerous hacker . I think it is russia not only the hacking capabilities which is very good h but it is the aggression to turn out the power with those cyberattacks doing millions of dollars of damage interfering in elections and suffering very few consequences. Thats a recipe for a nation that will t continue to use its impressive capabilities in the emboldened way and for someone in the uniteday states. You talk about the one case the most fascinating or surprising i dont want to say hyour favorite . The shadow brokers is remarkable not just because we have things we dont know of the mystery aspect but it shows how the tradecraft evolves from the day of espionage the days of attacks so there is a new terrain not for publicity your Information Purposes but have a tangible effect on the other side and what is striking is we have seen other groups pop up like this theres a group on twitter no one has ever really heard of them nobody has an idea where theyre coming from but they are posting and burning chinese capabilities we have seen were material over the last year and a half and it seems like the shadow brokers are a great mystery on their own could be the vanguard of the new tactic of counterintelligence in the public sphere and that something is extraordinary. Will the shadow brokers reemerge . The emerged in the august 2020 so set your watches. They came out in a time of high tension and it would be striking and deep in the mystery if they came back. Is it considered how do they look at the shadow brokers . Is a white male . What is fascinating is we dont know what they know so little public oversight and contrast to say personal management with the security clearance files of American Government workers it is so rarely discussed but everyone has a favorite chapter thats the one it is just extraordinary. And we dont know what the Intelligence Community knows. As a member of the Wilson Center my impression is the Power Rankings and those are a function of fiscal assets if you were to do a heat map of the world to rank the intellectual capital of that power country by country in terms of current intellectual capital and talent in the pipeline, what do those rankings look like an from a policy perspective should the us be doingor more to get better talent intoet this area . Thank you. United states probably still has the i t edge in termsf the sheer talent available the nsa is the largest employer which is useful for topography and code breaking. China is up there on a per capitain basis china has ingenious incredible hackers how they are carried out so those three are a cut above there rest. But we shouldnt sleep on Russian Operations they have demonstrated a long time they can fight this game is surprisingly to be an incredibly isolated country is done a great job to educate their hackers to patrol above their weight so those are the top five and probably in that order. Thank you for the conversation today its a great discussion of the book i look forward to reading it. Im f interested in what you mention about Election Security and in the vein of Election Security of those resilience measures we can take from the United States government from the perspectivenm to come away from the whack a mole approach from cyberattacks like Digital Literacy and those measures and your thoughts on that . Its a hard question. Cant we just educate people and that is probably part of the problem what can platforms like facebook and twitter do about this and this is great on this issue to say freedom of speech should equal freedom of reach to say you may have the right as an american to Say Something thats not true but in the context in which we have not many months until election season picks up its hard to talk about literacy and seven months but i do wonder if its what those platforms can do to manage the content that goes viral that is a tricky hill to go down that they know they have to do it toom some degree. This is a business with no easy answers. With the Technology Innovation program i just got your book this morning congratulations on the publication i started to read it right away and i noticed in the second footnote where you introduce the shadow brokers you refer to the tools but now they no longer are with the same internet archives which leads to one among many methods we are using to get at some of this information so could you speak a little bit to the variety of methods you have used . Or the great whale as your biggest mystery to rely on unique tools. This is a great thing about coming to Wilson Center you get questions about the footnotes. [laughter] that is impressive this is a broader pitch that i make and a lot of scholars say they treat those as if they are hypothetical or theoretical i want to tell the story of the cases that actually happens of how do you find those cases . First there is an incredibly robust private sector that studies what nations do every single do in cyberspace because they defend many of the targets with great visibility into these programs that would otherwise be you. Etely out of if you read all the footnotes with the private Sector Analysis and now in the private sector to track as they go about their business and the second sources Computer Science literaturee but there are two chapters in the book on encryption and spy versus spy they are very accessible, dont worry that they are fascinating how math becomes a frontier and the Computer Science literature reveals and helps me sort through of what happened in that case and then the third source our government documents that are actively promulgated north korea russian and hackers to show extraordinary light sound documentss are leaked i will not write anything that they dont already know every tnsingle footnote points to something publicly Available Online you can be sure the russians have seen it and that they tell a story about what happens in cyberspace between nations and that is worth telling. Here at the woodrow Wilson Center we just came out of a cold war were there was a period of deterrence on the ground so is there any development or theory of deterrence that should the us become more aggressive to stop attacks on the United States . Beyond some high threshold i am skeptical of deterrence and one of the themes for every chapter is that so many policymakers and scholars conceptualize cyberoperations as for signaling purposes or coercion or deterrence simply changing how the other side place their hand but i argue it is much better for shaping not how they play their other hand but to stack the deck and stealing cards that is the messy cat and mouse business so beyond high threshold on threshold from i think with the real feasibility and we underrate how useful it is as a tool of competition t. You think the us is doing too much signaling . After i started to write the book i was much more aggressive. But we got to the same place so to have that strategy now which is called persistent engagement we will engage every single day we will not only worried about the broader deterrence. So that was your idea. National security archive. News in this field breaks incredibly quickly from the moment you submitted the draft to today what stories have ecoken you wish you could reopen the book . I did write a very good description of the Equifax Breach perpetrated by the Chinese Government in two weeks ago the department of justice comes out with the official version which lines up which is a good thing. [laughter] but i wouldve had more color and there is been a few paragraphs longer they had given me an advance copy of their indictment which they did not do so thats oneth case i was glad i w was correct but i think we could have had more details in the book if the department of justice had earlier. Good morning. Great talk. Im an army officer doing at the thesis on National Political warfare. Is this an evolution or a revolution. I think its our revolution in tactics with russia there is an extraordinary his state one ri history so writing a great book on the influence campaigns and disinformation so with this activity and 2016 with a supercharged it and married the propaganda and a powerful operation and thats the shape of things to come. Does not amount to a revolution . I dont know. Maybe your thesis can answer it but it takes a whole idea to make it much more powerful and dangerous for democracies like ours. And there dont seem to be repercussions is that what needs to happen . No doubt the United States should draw a clear line to say we will take these very seriously. It didnt have much time between the election to kick 35 russian agents out of the country. He tried to impose in the eight weeks that he had but that hasnt continued in that something we should probably go back to. Hello. From the carlyle group. To questions, psychological operations that are being used to impact and influence whether election related themes that push people away from scienc science, from a definition standpoint do you consider that hacking . They use public means developed here in the us accessible to everybody to essentially perpetrate or put forward ideas that are then being shared bme world. So if you can clarify thats we know we are talking about of that is defined attacking. Second to bring this conversation towards huawai as if we are anticipating that will set the Technology Standard for five g moving forward to the next generation. How does that impact the ability of china and others to use the hardware infrastructure 5g moving forward to the next to get to what you have been studying and a assessing and writing about with information . I would not consider what you said in the first question is hacking but cyberoperation. The terms are not quites and ominous. One takes the code and putting it into another computer so cyberoperations could be tapping fiberoptic cables. I would consider what you describeib as cyberoperations certainly disinformation is well within the scope of what i study and write about. As a brief aside it is most effective when you can identify a fissure or crack that already exist and then drive the wedge into the crack thats what we see the russians do for decades to identify thehe points of division and try to widen them to make both sides feel the truth doesnt matter in science doesnt matter and we are divided which serves the interest well so the anti vax nsuspicion we will also see it from others on coronavirus as well getting a lot of attention but maybe not well understood for disinformation but on the second piece on huawai but to talk about the Telecom Companies in intelligence how it is an advantage to work with Telecom Industry to get access. United states does this it seems to me one of the real risks with huawai does that as well so certainly the concerns are founded if we want to let a potential adversary have access to herar networks. You think the easy Solutions Just be on huawai maybe thats part of it but not the entire solution there are much more complex questions about supply chains and who is making the equipment and the parts and that is harder to answer. Maybe we get to a point we just realized everything is compromised and if you go down the rabbit on the rabbit hole everything is our hall of mirrors seems true. That is in and of itself so you probably have a right to be concerned. You do worry about huawai . The government acts like were on an island. Get on board. My sense over the last 20 years with cyberoperations at every nation will use every tool available to can be in cyberspace and this is an opportunity we would expect the chinese to try to use. What you talk about coordination i was surprised how much at tuc has helped the United States couldnt the china make the reverse argument if they could build that then they can make it pervasive theoretically then couldnt they say that provides the capabilities. They cut and thats the cat and mouse game. This is not a business where trust probably you shouldnt trust and definitely should verify. Im with the association of studies in training. You have it much mentioned iran coincidentally. My question really is israelis are great at selling stuff north korea also hires out to other nations do we have that expertise how does that impact . This is a remarkable trend i think iran got on the cyberscene before that was available so they came out of their capability but a lot of nations around the world say we need to compete in cyberspace as well and the groups that they turn to that higher out that hacking expertise even those that have done this to level up the hacking capabilities and to use those which is remarkable so they use them not just to protect against adversaries but to repress that they see hacking capabilities as a tool to maintain over the population coupled with traditional physical policing and that iss something there is a book if you want to add wine chapter of cybersecurity that would be a chapter to add how do the authoritarian regimes use these tools of oppression. We are out of time it is a fascinating discussion thank you for writing this book in a way that peons like me can understand it. Thank you for being here there are books for sale in the library on lobby. [applause] [inaudible conversations] i was really concerned what i felt was that corrosive impact of the false narrative of the that corrosive impact they are having with the people of the fbi and to do their work that if people understood more about the organization who we are and how we work and who is drawn to the fbi and how we make the decisions that we do based on specific legal authorities and not that personal preference. Members of congress testify thursday before the House Small Business Committee on the Paycheck Protection Program and with relief to Small Businesses impacted by the coronavirus pandemic. And hold for ideas and essays and arguments and then to be here with alexis who is the author of the information trade and transforms our world. Can you hear me with the microphone . Alexis is the deputy cto where she basically runs
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