Transcripts For CSPAN2 Layla Saad Me And White Supremacy 20240713

Supremacy and people who live the legacy of liberation for others to follow, writer speak fer podcast author, earned a lives in qatar and her husband, sam and two children. So, we are very excited to be able to talk with her tonight. And we also are very excited to announce that this very new book has already released as number eight on the New York Times bestseller list. [cheering] and number 88 on usa today. So with that, laically, wok. Thank you so much. Very happy to be here. Are you on . There it goes. Can you hear me . Can you hear me . No. Will how grab the third mic. Sorry. Sudden technical never happened before. Its because the tv is here. So you can hear me, right . So im going to ask a question and hand this mic over to layla so she can hear you. Ill stated with this fascinating workbook and a really great exploration of a topic that weall interested to talk about more tonight, but in this book youre asking white people, particularly white enemy in the United States like me to confront the racism. You said jowling right youll know is can be uncomfortable process. Can you talk about what motivated you specifically to tackle this as a writer. Yes. So, its so interesting because ive been asked the question so many times now on the tour and if i had known before embark on the journey of doing this kind of work if i had known what this juniory would be ahead of time i might not necessarily have chosen it. The work is was doing before i was a life coach and business coachwasnt do anything controversial or anything that would make people uncomfortable. If anything i was like, come, ill take care of you and help you grow your business. But in 2017, when the charlottesville the unite the right rally happened in chicago it was a turning moment for me. It i remember seeing the images of the men marching in the streets which we can all remember, the torches, racial slurs, everything, and it was like a light just clicked over for me, and i had things that had been browing up inside of me for many months about thing is was observing in he Life Coaching space, the spiritual wellness, personal growth space, that i could see was White Supremacy. People who looked like me, minority, people who looked like the majority of people in this room were the majority, and i wanted to know why. Why was that the case . Because people like me didnt do this kind of work or where we being excluded from being seen as the experts, the leaders, credible people. If wrote a letter, an open letter called i need to talk to spiritual white women but White Supremacy addressing things brought up within me and asking people in that space to look at, you say you want to change the world, heal the world you say youre all about love and life you say you dont see color. But racism is running rampant in this space. We need to have a conversation but it. And so i got started on that journey through the letter that went very viral, very, very viral, and so fast forward a year later, one night im just thinking about what have they learn since we started having this public conversation, and i grabbed my phone and start writing what have you learned but you and White Supremacy and i thought what is White Supremacy and what had i observed and experiences of it and tsaed listing out dozens of these things, why violence, tongue policings cultural appropriation, white fragility, dozenses of prompts realized wasnt a single post i would share to my community but was a journey and so i created this 28cajun, hosted on instagram that night, said we begin tomorrow, 28day journey to explore your complicity in White Supremacy. Sounds fun. Sounds fun, right . And i really thought not many people will want to good on this journey because it sounds uncomfortable and hard and i woke up the next day and so many people said im scared but im in. And we started that challenge and i had 19,000 instagram followers by the end thereof he 28 days that number had more than doubled. We had people coming in every single day to do this work. And so its been an incredible journey because all it came from a place of the anger and grief from charlottesville and what i was seeing, and then the curiosity of, what had they learned . Amazing. So, the you started this on social media as you described. Which is feel like a very millenial way of starting a book. So what made you then want to try to convert that social media experience into a book . Is anybody is there anybody in this room who did the original instagram challenge . No. Okay. It was an incredible experience because it was for the first time people having very public conversations around their own unconscious racist thoughts and beliefs, and it had never seen it done before in that way. Wasnt behind a pay wall or in a private setting, anybody could come on my page and read what was being said. And i knew from day one that this was a very special thing that was happening, and i had to pay attention, and i knew by the end it had to become a book because there were people who were watching the challenge, who were too scared to join in and wanted to do the work but were afraid and because of the transformation is had seen i new it had to go beyond a challenge i newell i would ill knew i would never run again. But it was so incredible that it had to go beyond that live experience, and so i decided to turn it into a workbook and the great thing about doing that was i would no longer constrain to the instagram caption size. I could write and i had learned some things. Didnt realize how hard it would be for me and for the people i was asking to go on this journey and what i did with the book is let me prepare you for what youre going to experience and equip you for a journey that is glowing be veryunder of uncomfortable so we lewd includings in the pd fwordbook. This intro pages help get you to the notion that this is not light work, this isnt something you can do without real heavy amount of effort because its going to ask you some really hard questions. Yes. Now, the exercises that come in the workbook, obviously when you did them online you did them in a particular order. You had to think heres day one, day two, and youre asking different more challenging questions. Its like somebody starts and says im good. Im good. And then they start seeing themselves, start seeing their complicity, issues. How did you decide when you were doing it the first time what was the right order and did that change when you put it into a print book . Or did it modify . What were the decision points. So the night i received the download of what the challenge would be, i actually received dozens i wrote dozens of these things down, and then when we started day one, which was just the next day, and i woke up and thought, oh, no, i said im going to do this thing and now i actually have to do it. From day one when i i was like, let me just woulds the east e yeast one easiest one which is i you have to make it make sense. The thing that comes next has to build on what just happened. Because at first it was like i said the night before ask then the next day and my plan had been to just share them in the order i had received them in, but it didnt make sense to do that if i was going to be a sequential journey and so i was very intentional each day about what was going to come next. And that same order and those same prompts have remained the same from the challenge, to the pdf workbook to the hard cover book. Its the same. But can you you were composing that order as it was happening. Absolutely. The responses that you were getting. One of the main things was important to me is not to do the week two, the day eight to 15. Thats hard week. Thats the week we look at racist stereotypesantiblackness, cultural appropriation, the things that most people, most welsh meaning people who do not want to be associate with racism, dont want to admit to. So if i had started that in week one, most people would have shut down. Because consciously, the way that many people see themselves is, im not racist. Because i know who raysies there and are they the bad people. Marched in charlottesville. Im not one of those people so i cant even hear this. And so when week one we start if what i call the basics, and what those do is allow you to understand that White Supremacy is not a fringe thing that only some people do. Its actually this whole system and this whole belief and this consciousness that all of us have been conditioned by in different ways. When you get to week two youre more open to the idea that maybe die have antiblack thoughts, maybe, since i had all these other things that seemed to resonate with thing is know ive done and said and thought. Okay. And then on that same line you were talking about how the people were speaking and that was helping you guide which challenge you were putting to them next and starting to order things. The other thing you mention in the book is obviously the difference between the book and the challenge was that it wasnt just your voice out there. As you were posting things, people were responding online, and then some people who might have been working through the issues as a white person trying to adjust or confront or deal with this, there were other people chiming in, women of color other, voices that were adding to the conversation. How did that influence you then when you went to create the workbook. The Biggest Surprise to me was that out of nowhere, black women i now and didnt know, showed up to help facilitate the work. Voluntarily and didnt have to do that. And my instinct was to try to protect them. Dont look at this. Dont want to read this. Its not nice but they showed up and helped me facilitate the work and have been so integral to me a. Two of my closest friends here who are sitting up front who are black women, and they its that sisterhood and that working together that is so integral. When i went from the challenge to the workbook i was alone it and was just me, but the support they gave and the challenge helped me to push more as well. Okay. Because some voices that were like, no, cut the b. S. Go deeper. And it helped a lot. So, this is to some extent a book that has definitely your writing and a communal support behind it. So very different thats so important. Nobody does anything alone. Nobody does anything alone. Were sitting in he American Museum and we get to see the legacy, the body of work 0 so many incredible writers some who are just everything to me i stand on the shoulders because the work they did has so informed the work i do. Thats awesome. So, big part of the book is this notion of journaling. Youre asking people to write, youre asking them to engage with these questions and write their responses. Writers museum so my question becomes why is it more important to write the responses than justifies have a conversation with someone around the questions or think boat it. Why do you want journaling to happen. I have two answers to that question. The first one is that when i first started having conversations about race and i wrote that open letter, i was it was like a trying to convince white women, this is real. Thisyou do do this, and it was exhausting. It was really exhausting. What i found instead of telling, asked, it flipped things. It made it easier on me and made them more open to having the conversation, and so that is one part of it. The other part is, when we just if we are just thinking about it, just read the book and think about it you keep things at an intellectual level and youre processing it here but not processing it inside, and so when were talking about racism, racism is not an intellectual study. Its peoples lived lives. Its their lived experiences. And so that has to be matched with a lived, embodied experience of trying to understand your own unconscious thoughts and beliefs because they dont theoretically harm peoples color. They actually harm people of scholar so it is important to use your whole body to put pen to paper to write out and bring to the surface things that when you just consciously think about them are not there immediately. I agree fully in the power of writing so make things happen and change. In the introduction of the book you talk but the need be a good ancestor. What does that mean, that phrase . So, good answers saved my life, and helped me to be able to sit here and have this conversation with you now, n a way im able to have it. When i talked about when i first started doing this work and how hard it was, i went from being somebody who i guess that was life coach. I was very optimistic, very hopeful, very positive, and when i wrote that letter and began to experience the very nice women who were in my community suddenly have this reaction of what Robin Deangelo calls white fragility which is that many white people are not used to having nuanced and complex conversations around race and when the conversation is brought up they have a very sometimes violent reaction to it. Defensiveness. Its getting angry. Its getting up and walking away. Its saying things they would have never said. They couldnt imagine that thing would come out of their mouth, or crying, and so i went from being that hopeful, positive person, to very negative, very pessimistic, very hopeless because i couldnt see if something that if this work has been done for the amount of time we know its been done, which is fighting nor liberation and the equality for people of color, its been going on for so long and i could read things that had been written by writer like audrey lord and read it the and can the should have written this today. The exact same experience i had today and i needed something bigger than what i was seeing to allow know continue on the journey. I couldnt do it from a place of resentment and hopelessness. And so this idea of being a good ancestor went beyond me. Became about my children and descendents and people who will come after im gone, and so it i used that, i have it on the cover, i host a podcast called good ancestor podcast because i need it. Whats been really interested is so many people have resonated with it for. Thes and i think for people who have White Privilege in particular, the what i inspires or what it activates within is this idea that i didnt create White Supremacy but i absolutely benefit fromment and the white people who came before us didnt fix it, didnt dismantle it, didnt change it, perhaps i can do what i can do right now in this lifetime to create a different future for those who come after im gone. And so its been the thing as i said, selfishly for me but it has helped so many people. Thats great. Can you tell me or us some of the people you feel left the kind of legacy you want to leave, who you would consider good ancestors. So easy. I will say actually before i say the people that we all know, i would actually the first people are my parents and theyre living ancestors today, and when i got the news of New York Times just as we were arriving here, i called my husband first and then i called my mom, and theyre in qatar and its 2 00 a. M. , but i woke them up and told them because they are the everything they poured into me make me who i am today. Everything. The spirituality, the ability to write and speak. Everything i get from them. So theyre first. After mom and dad are writers. We sat over there waiting and theres an image of active Octavia Butler on the world and i open and close the book with her words. A huge influence for me, audrey lord as well. Black feminist women who did this liberation work in different ways. Octavia butler was not essayist. She was a Science Fiction writer, but i spent i think it was 1820, 19, reading through her entire collection, and if you have read the parable of the talons and parable of the sewer, the character inspired know be a good ancestor, and she documented everything. This character, and it remind me how important words are. The power of words because they live beyond us. They live beyond us. Thats great. So, you mentioned theres a months worth of content in the book and its more than a months worth of content because you discuss the idea of people being able to walk through it in a 28day cycle but you want them to step through it in in the order its put the first time. Yes. So, we cant go over all of these concepts tonight and we want you all to buy the book, and to do it yourself and to do the work as you mentioned. Its really important for people do the work if they want to engage in this content. I want to ask you about three that i think as i read through it, hit me, and so i want you did you see yourself in them . Yes. And so i want to know how you define them and how do you want someone like myself to respond to these concepts . So, the first one is, white silence. Okay. So, the first just to sort of zoom out a little bit, the aim of this book is to for people to understand that White Supremacy conditions and has infiltrated all of us, and what racism is, isnt just what we can all point to and say, that person is being racist, but is these unconscious thoughts and beliefs and behaviors which you take as normal or its not that bad, and then understand that, no, those things actually perpetuate White Supremacy and or maintain it in place by their nonaction. And so white silence is one of those of things. Being silent when you see something racist happening again im not just talking about seeing somebody call someone a racial slur but seeing somebody being mistreated, being racially agreesed, in normal situations and just thinking, is it worth it to say anything . Is it my place to say anything . Does anyone even notice if i say anything . And then just choosing to stay silent. That actively keeps this place. Its not other neutral behavior to be silent in the face of racism. And so i was saying earlier, you didnt create it, you didnt create White Supremacy. Nobody here alive create it but you maintain it and white si lens is one way you maintain it. And that thing of even just the scroll through facebook and you see something from someone you knew in high school or see something from Family Member and you ask the question, am i going to constantfront this here and now on social media . Theres different ways to talk yourself into silence. Talk yourself into not saying anything. And making a case for why its is it worth it . And moving on. Did anybody actually get harmed and moving on. What is that bade . Just having a bad day. Maybe they didnt mean it that way. Different ways to talk yourself into white silence. So i thought that was one. You also talked about the concept of white centering. Talk about that a little bit. Yes. I mean, White Supremacy lea define it. White supremacy comes from the root seed belief that people who are white are superior to people of other races, and therefore deserve to dominate over those people. And that has looked if we just look back an history we have seen that looks like colonization, land theft, enslavement. Shown up in violent ways and people can say that happened before but doesnt happen anymore. White centering is very subtle. When i talked at the beginning out by why was it in the spails i was in Life Coaching, that industry, there were so few people who look like me, white centering played a huge part in that, and this is idea that if a im remembering a conversation i had opposite once. Ive beencasting for a while and i make an intentional effort to mainly interview people of color, especially black women, and a question i got once from a white woman was, is this podcast for me . To listen to . Because it was mainly people of color being interviewed. And i said thats so interesting. Does that mean i have to ask when i see the majority of podcasts which have majority white geiss who i have to ask, is this podcast for me . White centering is this idea that if something is presented by white people through white people, it applies universally. But if its through people of color its only for those people. And another example i was giving recently in a book event was, when you watch movies i watch through two lenses. Im watching the story and also watching what is going on racially, and im not just looking for, do they have a certain number of people of color, a body count, but how close are those people of color to the role of protagonist and something ive notice that is interesting is if in a story doesnt mary if its romantic or not put theres a romance line, enough a story one of romantic partners is a person of color the other person will not be a person of color unless its seen as a black movie. Right . Unless its seen as a black movie and then the audience is black people. But if what happens most of the time is both romantic partners are white and that is supposed to be a universal story of love we can relate to. So, that is what white centering can look like in very subtle ways, that doesnt allow people of color to be the center of the story. Theyre always a side character. Our story are always marginalized. Right. And then the other one that i thought was rather powerful was your conversation but White Saviorism. Its really interesting. Was on a plane recently and the man sitting next to me, we were cheering because nobody had come to sit in the middle. So we were like, yes. Best thing ever. Two people, awesome. And so it was what does he do . He we were flying here and she said this is my short night. Im actually going on a long are flight to africa after this and i was like my mind im like africa is a continent, knopp a country. Where in africa are you going to . He said kenya, and i said, cool, my dad is kenyan, you going he said nairobi and he said im the coo of this food program, nonprofit and we provide meals and we do it in the u. S. And we have five programs here and one in nairobi. And so im like, my spidey senses are out because i want to know whats going on and im asking and investigating and it was the basis of the company was also very much faith based so it was sort of like a christian program. Christian in kenya. But i was like im not going to i dont want to we just met. It was funny after that he asked what do you do and i was like, let me show you my book and he took a picture of it and everything. But it is this idea, this story is this idea that white people can save black and brown people from our inherent state of retchedness and lower worth and that can look like missionary projects to black and brown countries but it can also look like trying to speak for black woman when she can speak for herself. It can be very, very subtle. And so if we root it back to where this comes from, its that same belief that white people are superior to people of other colors. And so what White Saviorism does is this belief i know better for them what is best for them. Because im white and colonization and the whole idea behind that was to go and save black and brown people. Those are all in the book we go through these different things, each of these a different amount of principles. I picked three. Is there anything that you think people need to know about, another part that i didnt touch on . I think a big one many people who sought a big one that often feels like a slap in the face when they get to it is white exceptionalism. And what white exceptionalism is is that idea that i read all the books done all the programs, watched all the documentaries, reposted all the articles and posts on social media. Im one of the little ones. I already know this. I dont really need to go that deeply because lets be real, if i wasnt one of the good ones i wouldnt have picked up this book in the first place. So its this conversation the selfcongratulatory conversation of, im already, i dont need to go that and white exceptionalism comes up and to call out. Its a call out but its you too. Be careful of getting into a space of thinking you are one of the good ones because that leads to a sense of you become more harmful to people of color when somebody is out right with the racism i just know to stay away from them. But if somebody is like im one of the good ones you can be safe with me. They have examined whats actually going on under the surface and cause harm in a way they didnt realize caused harm. Thats actually more painful to experience. Its more painful because you werent expecting it because they created the sense that they are safe to be around. And you went and told them something that you experience that was racist and they Say Something back to you like, but ive experienced that as well so maybe it isnt racism maybe its something else. You realize they didnt see you, they dont understand. Theyre not listening. Im going to mention i have a couple more questions im going to ask. If you have a question you want to write down and pass it over to the side after i asked couple more we will jump into those questions. Your heritage personally, east african, arab, jewish, black, muslim come you live in the middle east now so what kind of perspective these identities and experience bring to your writing . Its so interesting. This process of doing this work externally has helped me so much in owning all of who i am. I grew up in wales. I was born in wales and had a welsh accent in the beginning of my life. Thankfully its gone now. [laughter] grew up as a black muslim girl going to predominantly Roman Catholic school. I was always aware, from the very beginning my mom has a recording of me when it was about three years old i was listening to it recently and im in the background singing welcome baby jesus welcome baby jesus. [laughter] ive always been aware of my difference because i would go to school and we would pray how we pray at school, our father who art in heaven, i would come home and we would pray an entirely different way. It was hard because i had no other person to share that experience with. The stories that i made up in my mind about all of that was that i dont fit in and who i am isnt accessible. And who i am is something i should be ashamed of. Because it isnt the mainstream. Doing this work helping others to do this work is meant i have to do my work in owning all of who i am and learning to love all of who i am. What i think i bring to this conversation is unable to toggle between two big perspectives. The western consciousness and a nonwestern consciousness. I can zoom in and i grew up i understand how you think and i can zoom out and say, but that isnt the whole picture. I think why that is important is although we are here in the United States the american a museum is important to remember White Supremacy isnt just an american thing, its a global phenomenon. Whats promisee has touched so much of the world through different ways it shows up differently in Different Countries and different spaces and places that its all White Supremacy. I think having those different perspectives of growing up being born and growing up in the uk. I lived in tanzania for a portion of my life thats where my mom is from my fathers from kenya. There were countries that were touched by the colonization of great britain. Its the reason they moved to the uk because they spoke english because they were colonized by the british. Living in the middle east and saying, even when white people come here they are treated as superior to people of other races. What im trying to do with this work is not take a political stance, not take a country specific stance that actually help people to understand this is a thing that many of us are conditioned into and its about changing from the inside out. Raising the consciousness and changing from the inside out. Thats good. The last question i will ask you is, who are some abwho are writers who have influenced you . Octavia butler, audrey lord, the Chicago Public library yesterday when i was in the green room there they were images of other writers who influence me. Alice walker, bella hooks. I want to shut up my friend lisa renee holmes. She does antiracism and unconscious bias work and she also uses process of reflective journaling to help people get into the core. Their amazing brilliant people who had passed transitioned and people exist today as living ancestors who are doing incredible work. All of the imprints on you. He mentioned bella hooks, you mentioned Octavia Butler and the differences they are obviously already essay and the scholar in the Science Fiction writer. Which do you think has more impact on making people think . Ive had abi cant talk for people but i can talk for me. For me i need all of it. I need the Tony Morrison and the Octavia Butler and i need the audrey lloyd and the bell hooks. I need the poet, lucille ai need them all. Because im a human being, processes things in many different kinds of ways and i need knowledge but i also need heart and fiction and nonfiction and poetry impacts us in different ways where it builds up this abit fills this very nuanced textured way of understanding what White Supremacy is which is not just, no pun intended, blackandwhite. Its not just racist or not racist. Its how does racism and White Supremacy impact us in different ways from the feeling to that thinking to the feeling, everything. Is it surprising that there are very few men in this room . [laughter] whats interesting in the sort of personal growth, personal Development Space tends to be majority women too. I think women tend to lean toward introspection and self reflection in a different way than men do. [laughter] i think everybody is agreeing. Thats not meant as an insult. But reflected in what we see inhis. There is a secondary question here which is you see more resistance to acknowledging complicity from white mercer promisee from white men versus white women. Within White Supremacy the world is made for a very specific type of person. That person is white, male, ab thats who its supposed to ultimately benefit. The more you deviate from that box, the more oppression, discrimination and marginalization experience. I think when you benefit so much from something, why do the work when you have to lose those benefits. I think thats where the resistance comes from. I dont think its a malevolent hanging onto but i think nobody likes being uncomfortable nobody likes losing something they like having so thats where the resistance i think comes from. This is a question for someone in the room who as a white teacher teaching in a school i think they are saying primarily latin African American students is there a way to avoid the pitfalls of white savior is him. I think the very first place to start is to do work like this. Regardless of whether its my book my work or somebody elses but really examining what am i bringing into that space. What am i bringing into that space that im not even aware of . How my viewing these children in ways that is harmful to them that im not aware of . Consciously we all like to think that we are good people and we keep that definition of good real simple. We dont want to look at the other parts of ourselves that is a human tendency. When you go into spaces like that and youre coming in with White Privilege and unexamined unconscious racist thoughts and belief you dont even know the ways you could be doing harm. I cant remember what city its been now. [i was in a certain city and the security person with me was a black man and when we finished the talk we were driving back to the hotel i said did you enjoy the talk . He said i did when you were talking and remembered so many things that happened and i remember being in school and constantly being told, you are disadvantaged, you are disadvantaged, you are disadvantaged. I couldnt take it anymore so i dropped out of school. I dropped out of school. I dont know what the intention of those people who kept telling him that was but the impact was that it caused his wife to go into an entirely different direction than he might have consciously wanted. Its important to examine what you bring into that space . With increased white supremacist ideologues present in classrooms or ideologies present in classrooms by people who use language and antiracist work. How do we change the strategies for confronting this . I dont understand the question. Im gonna try that again. With increased White Supremacy ideologies present in the classrooms sorry if i misunderstood your question. My eyesight isnt what it should be. What if anything did you learn or were most surprised and discover about White Supremacy during the initial instagram challenge . I would say how sneaky it can be. And what it can really look like in practice that people just by being prompted to examine were able to uncover within themselves. One particular that stand out to me was the day we did what have you learned about you and black women which for me was the hardest day for obvious reasons. It was the one day of the challenge where i did cry because it was that hard. One of the things written was a white woman said i went to the doctors and was surprised when the doctor came out and they were a black woman because they just werent expecting it because in their mind black women dont are not that smart i guess. Do not are not able to occupy that kind of a space and it was only because we been doing the work for a number of days now that she was able to recall that memory because she said, that was my first thought and then i immediately knew that was wrong. And replaced it with a Second Thought which was i dont see color. So it was interesting in observing what people were writing was how sneaky it is that theres always a first thought and that you recognize thats not right cant do that cant be one of the racist let me replace it with a Second Thought that matches up with the person i think i am. With the thoughts i think i have. That sneakiness was a then the second question is how have you scaled the program to meet the intersection of race and misogyny. Black women. [laughter] is the day that we look at that in the intersection of experience doing sexism and experiencing antiburqas at the same time. Women of color especially black women especially black women who are not just gendered and heterosexual always face the most oppression. Encourage people in the work when theyre looking at these dont just when youre thinking about a woman dont just think of women straight and just gendered. Think about these other intersections as well and how does that modify how you treat them. This question which i actually know the answer to from going to the book but i would ask. You can answer it. [laughter] is the book meant to be a solitary journey . If so, how can a group use it to add more depth to the conversation. You want to talk about that . When i initially did the instagram challenge it was just a solitary journey about individual self reflection. When we finished the challenge and i announced i was going to read a book i kept getting requests and request about and want to do this work with my family i want to take this into work i want to do it in a group can you include instruction on how to do that. So i did that in both the workbook and the hardcover book there was an appendix in it that tells you how to do and me and White Supremacy books are cool using a process called the circa way the circle way is a book by Christina Baldwin and emma linnea they gave me permission to include exit from the work from the book. What the circle way does is their tagline is a leader in every chair. One of the most important things for me in choosing the process of how to do this in the group was not to recreate right supremacist paradigms, hierarchies and that can happen when there is a leader who is more woke who knows more and can tell the other white people what to do. I didnt want to do that i wanted people to understand this is what work you will be uncovering more and more as you go on this journey so have a circle process where everyone is responsible for doing the work. Nobody is more ahead than another and everybody is responsible for making sure we are all on the journey. So i include extensive appendix for how to do this in a group. I want to say, sorry, theres a lot of value of doing it in a group as well. Doing it individually is also great some people in the process think better about themselves but the value of doing it in a group as you stay accountable to the process camino clock out at day three and realize what the journey actually is. You get to see that you are not the only one who has these unconscious thoughts and beliefs. Other people do too. People you respect people you like so it doesnt stay at this personal thing that you feel shame about or you feel like its only me and im such a bad person for believing this. You start seeing the people in your life also feel that way so it goes from a personal thing to elected abto a collective thing. Another thing i know you address in the book. Something that how the work may change with a nonwhite audience who have a White Privilege. For example, abyou talked about that. Early on in the book before you get to this, i define who the work is for and i dont say its for white people. I say its for people who have White Privilege which is very worthy. Its easier if i couldve written throughout the book white people, white people but i keep saying people with White Privilege. Because you can be a person of color or biracial abbiracial passes as white or seen as white or can be mistaken for white if they dont know more about you. But i include in asterix to that is if you fit in there because the process for those people is very different to those who are just white. Its complicated. I did an event in washington dc, i remembered, washington dc and i talked about this. After the talk a Palestinian Woman came to talk to me afterwards and she said, im really glad you said that because myself and my family have been pretty much doing that, passing as white. Where we can get away with it we will do it. Because its easier than having to deal with being seen as palestinian. But what it has meant as weve had to sacrifice parts of ourselves, weve had to subdue parts of our culture and our heritage in order to fit into this box of witness. For people who fit into that who have White Privilege but are not white its complex and its not because you have to look at how have i had unconscious racist thoughts and belief and harm to other people of color and how have i been a ahow have i been on the receiving end of racism and not addressed it . Allowed it to happen in order to continue to receive what privilege . We had an author here yesterday, i think i mentioned, a young adult author and he told the story of being young man in acting which he did early in his career before becoming a writer. Being told by a casting agent you should change your name you should pass away because he could. And just how painful that was. It is something that is definitely out there and a choice that people sometimes make. And feel that they have to make. Because it will be easier for them if they are told they should sacrifice who they are. Another question is your thoughts on navigating a line between white favoritism and using privilege for good. I always get half asked this question. How do i know if im using my privilege absorry to break it to you there is no checklist. There is no perfect way to do anything. Especially in this work. Sometimes you will get it wrong. You will absolutely get it wrong. Whats important is to keep developing the skill which this work teaches you which is critical selfexamination. The more aware you are of your unconscious racist thoughts and beliefs, the less harm you will do. The more aware, the less harm you will do. If you or someone whos going to this work and you get to the white favoritism and start to realize a long history and pattern of trying to save people of color, its probably a tendency for me so i should probably question when i do that. The other part is, instead of swooping in to save the day, ask questions. Ask questions. Ask if you are needed. If you are needed, how . Ask the people of color for whom you are trying to be an ally ship with or two, ask them what they need. We know what we need. I dont need somebody to speak for me i know how to speak but i might need you to when im being racially aggressive i might say, can you talk to them . If i ask you, you are not saving me because i asked you. But if you assume and you just step in, then you are saving me. Maybe i was fine. How would this conversation be different if you were being interviewed by a black woman . [laughter] i was speaking to somebody yesterday and i said this is going to be my first interview with a white man. Nearly every interview ive done has been with the black woman. It absolutely changes things. But it doesnt change me. It might change the dynamic but doesnt change me. It is my personal antiracism work has been to learn how to not bend and fold myself with the white gaze. I stay true and myself as a black woman and i trust you can handle it. [laughter] im doing my best. [laughter] i was just handed this one. Then i have one more im going to ask you. Great questions by the way. These are really good. As a recovering wellmeaning white woman. [laughter] as recognized past harms, what are your thoughts on reaching out on a letter to make amends to block people you may have harmed. I believe in the power of taking responsibility or accountability. Unless youre my best friend who harmed me and i write in the book of the best friend who was white and did do this and chose to end the friendship because she just couldnt show up for me, unless you are that person in my life, i dont need a letter from you. We had a personal relationship, id appreciate if you reach out to me but if you realize one day and im laughing because i get dms all the time about, your work is help me to realize this thing that i did was racist. Do you think i should abthey dont remember. And they dont care. You coming back to them now is just going to annoy them. They had to get over in the moment when it happened and who are you doing it for . I will leave that there. Am going to ask you one more, which i thought was a good one to end on. With this question asks is basically throughout this very uncomfortable process of engagement and what youve done with this and what you work through on this, what still gives you hope . My children, it was so cheesy i know. But my children. Thats why do this work. I do it for layla the little girl who always grow up feeling alone and other and my children who deserve to live in a world where they are treated with their full humanity and dignity no matter where in the world they set foot. They are the ones who give me hope because they are beautiful, they are amazing, they are everything. And they are the ones to give me hope. Thats great. I want to thank you. Thank you. Id like to ask you all to think layla for coming out. [applause] i hope you all had a wonderful time. As i mentioned, there are books for sale in the back if you havent got it already, please make sure you get a copy tonight they are already signed. Thank you all for coming. Thank you very much, thank you. [applause] [inaudible background conversations] on a recent episode of booktv monthly call in program in depth we were joined by author and wall street journal columnist jason riley. In this portion of the program he offers his thoughts on race in the criminal Justice System. I think the criminal Justice System is certainly an improvement today over what it used to be over what my father or grandfather experience. But its still not perfect. I would caution against taking these examples and saying they are typical. Versus exceptions or aberrations. Or saying that the reason ab is because its a racist system per se. I dont see a lot of evidence for that. I think often times we have discussions about the racial makeup of prisons and jails but we dont talk about the racial makeup of people who perpetrate crimes in this country and i dont think you can really have one discussion without the other. As imperfect as the criminal Justice System is, has been, continues to be, i still think that there are behavioral differences among groups that lead to some being overrepresented in that system and others being underrepresented. To watch the rest of this interview and find more episodes of indepth visit our website booktv. Org and click on the indepth tab at the top of the page. Om we are joined by frank buckley, back at our desk George Mason University law professor author of his latest book american secession the looming threat of national breakup. You argue in this book that secession is a lot closer than we think in todays america, woodybased argument on . Partly its my experience. I moved here from canada and i went to all of this before and i remember at one point this was something nobody talked about and a few years later we are having referendum and it nearly passes. When a very divided country. In many ways it resembles the country i left. He began to wonder whether or not we might not just be better