Booktv and free speech tv. So i would ask to everybody to check their cellphones just to make sure that your cellphone is off. And also just so you know its being filmed tonight. We will be taking questions later, and passing around note cards, and then reading the questions from up here so they can also be part of the livestream and the booktv and there will be a booksigning afterwardded. Hay market books has a table and gary will by signing books. So please join is. This weekend i went to d. C. And had a couple of extra hour size went to she the king memorial. How many people have seen it . Its exceedingly depressing. Im sure he monument included alcoves to honor other civil rights martyr its but those were scrapped. King towers over us, the sculpture is flanked with a granite wall, 14 quotes on the wall, not one uses the word racism or segregation or Racial Injustice or apartheid, not one. Theyre earned like crossstretches, in 1963, 1967, 1955, 1963, 1964. Completely out of context of the movements and mobilations in which mobile almightiations in in king spoke. The. The monument was made in china to save money. A man who excoriated the triple evils of materialism, materialism and racism, who risked his life and went to jail 30 times to challenge the scourge of american racism who was quick to point out the race selfof the north as well thats south, who wrote from jail in 1963 the biggest from lem was the the klan but the white moderate. That man of god and courage is now honored with a memorial that refuses to speak the problem of racism. It is into this moment, the midwhen he history of the Civil Rights Movement is regularly invoked and distorted and used to celebrate the greatness of the United States that we turn to our speakers tonight. Both of tonights speakers write eloquently to help us make sense of this paradox. Of these perilous times we live in where the history of one the greatest social movements hoff the 20th century is used to imperil urgency of the task of social justice today. Indeed to cover up at times the continuing scourge of materialism, militarism and racism. And yet of the visions we can gain from a fuller and much richer sense of history to help us see and work for justice in our time. Michael denzel smith is a blogger at the nation. Com and a fellow at the nation institute. Also a free lance writer and social commentator and his work has appeared in places such as the guardian, the huffington post. Gary younge is author, broadcaster and Award Winning columnist at the guardian, a monthly columnist at the nation and a fellly with the nation institute. He has written four books. His fourth book, the speech the story behind the Martin Luther king dream is why we are hire today as gary gives us a bit of the full are history of the march on washington and then reflects on the current politics of this civil rights history and our recent season of memorialization. So im going to turn it over to gary to kind of give us an introductory remarks and then michael and then well have some conversation up here and then well open it up to questions and conversation with you. Thank you. So, thanks very much for coming, for those who have never seen me before, im gary younge, for those who have seen me before, im gary younge in a suit because this is not particularly familiar sight unless youll see me at a wedding or funeral. The book is called the speech about kings famous speech of the march on washington. Its left there as an idea than you have a great man and a great talk. But king could not do that on its own. The speech and the march came from somewhere, and i want to start by giving some context to that text, because in the absence of that there would have been no march and there would have been no speech. So i start with the people whose names perhaps we dont know, but who paid for that speech in a range of ways. I begin with Franklin Mccain, who was a 17yearold in greensboro, North Carolina, who made a stand by taking a seat the woolworth on february 11 960. When i interviewed him, he said that up until that time, as a young man in North Carolina, he felt that his life was worthless and his parents had lied to him. The lie they told million was a Great American lie that you can be anything you want to be. And he said, as he grew through adolescence he new that was true as 17yearold blackmail in North Carolina. He knew that wasnt true. And just as a symbol. Completely different story is wag doing several years later if interviewed a give called buford posey from mississippi. A white guy who became an antiracist who told me quite kind of matter of factly, never knew it was illegal to kill a black man until i joined the army. He said until that time i knew it was wrong but didnt athlete was illegal and true enough in mississippi the people who were as likely as not to be killing black people were the Law Enforcement agencies so it was not an entirely incredible thing for him to think we got back to Franklin Mccain. He nos this as well as byuford posey was and he says he was angry at his parents so him and his friends sat un, talking about how everybody had failed them. Before they talked. Thes into the action they took the following day. Not knowing when theyed so up at woolworth whether nip else would be there. They said the worst thing that could happen was that the klan could kill us but i had no concern for my personal safety. The gay i sat at the counter hat a feeling of elation and celebration and felt in this life nothing elsemeterred. If theres a heap i got there for a knew minutes. Just felt you cant touch. In. Theres no other experience like it. Not even the birth of my first child. A few years later, in birmingham, alabama, a burly white Police Officer attempted to intimidate black School Children to keep them from growing the antisegregation protests. They sure him they knew what they consider doing nord his entreaties and continue their march toward the park where i they were arrested. A reporter asked one of them her aim. Six she said as she climbed too into the paddy wagon. This following month in mississippi, Fanny Lou Hamer heard a man being beaten in jail. Can you say yes, sir, the program demanded in yes, i can, replayed ponder. So said. I dont know you well enough, said ponder and then hamer heard her head his hit the floor again. The polish journalist once wrote all revolutions begin with could chapter at the time talk bed deday ire authority or my his and suffering of people but should begin with a psychological chapter, one that show outside a harris third man break his terror and stops being afraid. This unusual prodelands illume names. Man gets rid of fear and feels free. The period preceding kings speech was one such chapter. Until that point there had been in many fearless in may 67 the New York Times published more stories but civil right inside two weeks than the previous two years. During the ten week period following kennedys address on civil rights in june that year, there were 758 demonstrations in 186 cities, resulting in 14,733 arrests. Such were the conditions of thad me march on washington possible and kings speech so relevant and this context was global. Two day after mccain made hi protest in greensboro the british Prime Minister had an ominous warning. The wind of changing blowing through and whether we like it or not this growth of National Consciousness is a political fact. Some including his immediated aens, Apartheid Parliament didnt like but a the wind became gale. In the next three years the following countries big became independent. Chad, congo, jamaica and others. Internationally nonracial democracy in the blahing enfranchisement that came if was the order of the day. The longer america practiced legal segregation the more it looked like a slum on the wrong side of history, than a shining city on the hill. Now, the story of that year in particular is the story of the base, the masses, the grassroots, continually running ahead of the leadership. King spoke in harlem a few months before the march ands hackled by protested shouting we want malcolm. When the nappin held their conference in chicago, they invited mayor daley to give introductionry remarks and he is heckled from the floor. When their lead her goes to speak to ken but holding the march, kennedy says to them we have legislation that is currently going through congress. We would rather have new laws than have the negroes out on the streets. And randolph, socialist and trade Union Organizer who is primarily responsible for court calling the march telephones kennedy the Anything Grows are already in the street and i doubt if you called them they would come back. That is the mood of the moment. That the patience has worn out. The forebearance, the ability to withstand the clubs and the hoses, hoses that can fire so strong they cannot the bark off a tree at 30 feet, being fired at children, and dogs. And its become too much. And so africanamericans, who are always fighting back, start to resist like with like in birmingham there is eventually a respond to the bomb offerings the klan with violence. Theres a fear, both among the civil rights leadership and among the Kennedy Administration that black people were resist and will meet like with like. That is the mood that creates in the the necessity for the march which is called at the very beginning of the year but very few people wont. The poll shows most more thans dont what ity particularly most white americans. Kennedy doesnt want it. Its insufficiently radical for many of the youth and too radical for many of the more conservative leadership but there is a sense that if they dont do this, what are they going to do to channel this frustration, this mass frustration . And so the march happens. Now the key fear primarily of the state is that there will be violence. This is peculiar because moe on the violence in the south came from. The white creation segregationists. But the fear of violence, it is literally employing as a mail tear operation, called operation steep hill. 82nd airborne ready to flay out from North Carolina and drop 19,000 troops on d. C. A thousand troops in d. C. Deployed. 6,000 police. Working, all leave cancelled, all elective surgery cancelled. Baseball game cancelled. Alcoholic sales are made illegal, and even on the mic, the mic that king speaks from theres a kill switch. We know a lot of these details because the fbi were kind enough to record them for us. One of his daughter says dont do that i have a dream thing. Its a clichc. Youve used it too many times before. And indeed king had used it before. He first recording using of it was and 62. Hed used it in june at a rally in detroit. And even a week earlier at a fundraiser for black insurance investors. This is not the first time hed use the i have a dream refrain. He seeks counsel and has a lot of input. Much more than he would generally. What we know is when he goes to bed at 4 00 in the morning, the morning of the march. I have a dream is not in the text of the speech, that we know. According to jones, his lawyer and speech counsel, it was not in kings mind to do that. The next day. So there is a series of meetings with congress. The gay excommunist conscientious director, thats before you get to the fact that hes black. Hes the organizer of this march and he runs out of congress. Sees the march and says we are supposed to be leaving. They jump into their limousines and try to catch up with the march but are blocked by the traffic. So they jump out of the limousines and they run to catch up with the march. If you look at pictures of the leaders of the march, in a Fred Flintstone version of photoshop it, they cleared people out of the way so it looks as though there in front of the march. Throughout that day, king is worrying away. Is full of doodles and scrolls. It was a hot day. 87 degrees at noon. And king is the 16th on an agenda of 18. The 10th speaker. There have been a number of fingers. Peter paul and mary, bob dylan. And he takes to the podium about 2 30 p. M. According to Clarence Jones who drafted much of the text, king keeps closer to this text that he would regularly keep. Those who wrote speeches said they were always kings speeches but you were a crude architect. Then he would make it his own. And he speaks faithfully to the main text. But then as if you listen to the speech, its the most popular, least wellknown speech ive heard. When i told my brother i was doing this book, he said i love that speech. Such a great speech. That thing about mountaintop and ive seen the promised land. I said great speech but its not that speech. He says the mississippi. Go back to your homes knowing that somehow the situation will be resolved. When king was on the road, he would also often call jackson for what they call gospel therapy. He would ask her to sing to him to soothe his spirit when he was down. So he knew her well. Hes winding down. She shouts, tell them about the dream. She had heard him deliver the segment in june in detroit. King continues. For though the dust let us not wallow in the valley of despair. And then she shouts, tell us about the dream. And then in the words of Clarence Jones, he puts his text to the left of the podium. And then his body language changes from a lecture to a preacher. And says those people dont know him but theyre about to go to church. And king says, though we faced difficulties of today and tomorrow, i still have a dream. At which point, was in the crowd says, oh shit, hes doing the dream. Whats interesting is when you ask people who were there of the time and who knew him well. To a person, they will tell you they did not, of all the speeches he made, this is not particularly one they thought weve been talking about in 50 years time. But, many of them had different speeches they thought were better. Either way they thought great speeches is what king did. I spent a fair amount of time looking at why that is. I want to suggest two things. The first is that, there is something for pretty much everybody. If you are an africanamerican, part of the community that is still you are genetically stupid. That youre poor because youre stupid. That your stability is your responsibility. Stupidity. The failings of your community have nothing to do with history and everything to do with you. Then to know the best speech was delivered by an africanamerican in black vernacular is something to be very proud of. If youre a teacher, theres nothing in the speech that you need worry about. This is deeply rooted in the american dream. Literally and metaphorically delivered in the shadow of lincoln that pays homage to the founding fathers. Its an american speech. If you are progressive, this speech comes on this day. There have been few days like it for american progressives. Only 20 percent of the crowd was white which was less than what they were expecting. Nonetheless, this was the first march of its kind in washington. This mass demonstration, they got 250,000. Had never been done before. It comes, this is the way i describe it. Its the most eloquent articulation of the last great moral act america can claim of which there was any consensus. That was american apartheid. That whatever people say or feel able to say, nobody wants to be taken seriously is calling for those signs to go back up. Nobodys calling for a return to formal segregation. However small it may seem, see the amount of racism that can spew from the mouths of those who are elected or an elected. That is no small thing. The end of apartheid is no small thing. So there is fact. A number of people theres also something else. King, when he delivers that speech, theres an even number of americans with an unfavorable view of him. And then hes dead and 68. Assassinated. By 1999, when americans were polled, king comes second only to mother teresa. Something happens between when hes assassinated as a somewhat marginal and polarized figure in 1999. First of all, why does he become unpopular . Well, when the speeches delivered, the year after become the civil rights act. Legislation begins to kick in and king understands that the end of segregation is not the same as the beginning of the quality. He says i have given people, we have won the right to eat at any restaurant of our choice but we do not have the ability to eat everything thats on the menu because we cant afford it. So he starts talking about what else is necessary. I want to reach you this bit about where do we go from here. You get a sense of why he might become unpopular. He says 14 Million People poor people are here and we must ask the question, why . When you begin to ask that question, your raising questions about the economic system. About a broader distribution of wealth. You question the capitalistic economy. Im saying that more and more, we got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars at the marketplace but one day, we must come to see that which produces beggars needs structuring. It means questions must be raised. When you deal with this, you begin to ask a question, who owns the oil . You begin to ask, who owns the iron . You begin to ask, why is it that people have to pay water bills for a world thats two thirds water. That kind of talk in america will get you killed. Sure enough, a year later, he is killed. He started talking about capitalism. Year after that in 67, he starts at a riverside church, he calls america the greatest purveyor of military violence in the world today and take the stand against vietnam. Now, how is america and then going to remember king . It cant remember him if its going to raise them to iconic status. If its going to put him on the mall, it has to sanitize him for public consumption. It has to make in the kind of person that comes second to mother teresa. You cant do that with amanda in america who questions capitalism. Because to remember king in that way would not raise him above the fray but enter him into it. Thats what the shutdown was all about. You cant remember king is a man who criticized capitalism and still hold him up as an American Icon. It is what it takes to be an American Icon, changes. America cant remember him, the powers that be as the man who called america the greatest purveyor of military violence. The speech took place literally on a split screen. [indiscernible] you cant remember king as that. Having him on the mall and still claim him to be an American Icon when hes speaking about america being the greatest purveyor of violence. But you can remember him as a man who got rid of american apartheid. Not racism because that would involve different conversations about why black men in dc have a lower Life Expectancy rate than men on the gaza strip. But you can have a conversation about why or how he got rid of american apartheid. So thats the way they choose to remember him. So i end with one paragraph where i talk about the process by which king and through him, the speech can be sanitized. They say white america, embraced him the way most south americans came to embrace nelson mandela. Selectively, without grace but with considerable guile. Hed created a world in which was in their own selfinterest. In short, they had no choice. When it comes to king in his speech. One of the central arguments in this book is its not just about what you remember, its also about what you forget. Thank you. [applause] good evening. Before i get started, i want to send a special shout out to the court of appeals for reminding us all that the work aint over. I would like them to know, we will win. I grew up in a malcom x household. My introduction to malcolm x was probably 45 my father perpetrated him in a black History Month special. I still have on my nightstand right now, a copy of the autobiography that my father had. The broken and tired one. I grew up postpublic enemy and spike lee resurrecting welcome acts in his iconography. My father had several x hats and tshirts. I say all that to say, doctor king is not a part of my foundation. I dont have any particular attachment or reverence or didnt have. Because i rejected him. I accepted the binary idea that you either choose malcolm or martin. I just dont have much contact with Martin Luther king jr. We had a picture in our house like most black americans do. You will find malcolm x, Martin Luther king, jesus and now, barack obama. The barber shop i used to go to, there are only three pictures of the world. Martin luther king, malcom x and barack obama. The picture in our household was malcom x in the center, mohammed to his right and then Martin Luther king. I just dont have a whole lot of emotional pull to the legacy of doctor king. But i realize thats not entirely my fault. I didnt even grow up celebrating Martin Luther king jr. Holiday. Because i grew up in virginia. We had Lee Jackson King day. Where we celebrated robert e lee, Stonewall Jackson and Martin Luther king jr. On the same day. Big day. They should make that a week. That lasted until the year 2000. And, this goes to what gary was speaking about. How can you do that . How can you lump Martin Luther king jr. In with robert e lee and Stonewall Jackson . You depoliticize him. You rob him of his actual legacy. The words he spoke and wrote in the fight he fought during his lifetime. You can do whatever you want with him. Martin luther king is not alone. We depoliticize everyone. American history. When your country is arrogant as the United States to claim your the greatest nation on the face of the earth, in history, you need a history a narrative to match that claim. So everything becomes depoliticize and everything becomes a symbol of american exceptionalism. Thats why you can have people the right and the left praising both fdr and Ronald Reagan and not see the inconsistencies of that. Because they are not political figures anymore. They are symbols. They represent the greatness of the United States of america. So thats what king has come to represent even as he was fighting against, pretty much everything america stands for. But we can look at the march on washington itself. That brought us the dream speech. When third as we know the name of the phone. Its the march on washington for jobs and freedom. So you cant you cant commemorate a man who as gary was saying, talked about america as the greatest purveyor of violence internationally and wage perpetual war. You cant do that. You cant talk about Martin Luther king jr. And event the statue in his memory and this man stood against Police Brutality and every 28 hours, a black person is shot and killed by police or security or some vigilante. Cant do it. But you can if you reduce them into a dream. It was that dream come its such a blank slate that you can project on whatever you want to. Thats not kings fault that he was delivering a speech that he needed to deliver at the time. The problem with our understanding of reason racism in america being confined to that one moment and being confined to that one idea of having a dream. That little black boys and white boys would hold hands together. Means we dont do with what racism actually is. We dont deal with the fact that the governing philosophy for the United States of america since its inception that has been White Supremacy. We dont deal with it because all we had was a dream that we would be nice to one another. What i appreciate about garys book and also jean spoke about rosa parks. Is that we are rescuing these figures and their legacies from this narrative of american exceptionalism. [applause] at the one place we could start and both touched on was, what we saw in august around 50th anniversary commemoration. Both of you have written about this. You touched on what became a National Self congratulations that we saw in august. If you can tease that out little bit more. It was a show really. Theres a part of me that thinks okay, its a 50th anniversary. There should be some kind of show. There should be a commemoration. But then that show has to mean something. And what that show cannot do is pasteurize and the meaning of what happened. Bastardize. Leading up to the march, the organizations made a whole lot of concessions. They kept making concessions and the young people in the office would go, sit down. We have this coalition to keep together. A coalition of unions, civil rights leaders and church leaders. So these are important. The one he would not make was that politicians should not speak from the platform. They are there to listen to us. Not to lecture us. What was telling i went to one of them. Hearing nancy pelosi. Eric holder got 20 minutes. Americas chief cop. And gets his mic cut off at two. That is not just symbolic. Thats real. And it tells you something about priorities and about trajectory. So there was that. Everything i found curious, lots of things i found curious. There was a sponsored by mcdonalds stand. Did a lot of stuff on the speech and that was sponsored by bank of america. Kicking black people out of their homes since 1933. [laughter] looking forward to that being on their rider. Was that they kept saying, weve come a long way but we have so far to go. You think well, who should we look to for that . Youre the president. Youre the leaders. There was a sense of, who would have thought . 50 years after the march on washington. The discrepancy between black and white unemployment is the same. There are more people in prison now then were in the soviet at its height. These people are like, what are you going to do . What are you going to do . The degree to which theres this sense of, kind of, powerlessness among the powerful i found quite objectionable. The number of the main [indiscernible]. There was obama in a hoodie. I dont think when George Zimmerman saw trey von martin, he goes, there goes the future president of america. I found that is where people i saw more pictures of trey von martin that i didnt Martin Luther king. We had two commemorations. The one led by the river and out of sharpton. I have introspect it was telling to me that young Ishan Johnson from chicago was taken off the stage. Its telling because as much as we talk about youth and the a as much as we want youth involved, we are taking the mic away from them. That to me, was the theme of al sharptons march essentially. Was that, it was his ascension. It was his coronation as the single most powerful civil rights leader in the United States at the moment. You essentially go through him. It was disheartening to watch. At the very least, philip agnew did get to speak at that commemoration. Which he did not at the official one. He and Sophia Campos were told they would not get there two minutes a piece. This was the real forest in washington. Farce. This was not about movement. This is not about the actual lived experiences of black and brown, o pressed people in this country. This was about america patting itself on the back for how far weve come. How far have we come . I would like to know. Most def said, change the pace and we keep up the tempo. You change the game up completely. It doesnt look any more like whites only signs. Looks like being locked up for a dime bag of weed. This is the new fights. This is the new way theyve chosen to oppress. So what other solutions. We dont get any answers commemoration. I dont have time for that. I want to talk about this image of the split screen. I always like to bring everything back to rosa parks. At the end of february, we got the statue. Its an odd moment of bipartisanship. Its macconnell, nancy pelosi and the president. Come to the capital, first black person in the capital. Barack obama when parks dies says, we need more than lofty words. So here we are, barack obama is the president. We need more than lofty words. Literally across town that day, as their honoring that statute and talking about what a great nation. What a people. What a country. Across town, the Supreme Court is hearing the Voting Rights act challenged. Across town. And then president obama ends the day and he talks about her single act of courage. The president of the United States who could do more than the words said thats what it meant when she died but has that opportunity and again, gives us lofty words. I guess i wanted to talk about the split screen. I think america has this far more total in ability than britain, which is where im from. As to discharge the past. To travel light from its history. Written kind of slips into his past like an old man and a warm bath. It surrounds itself with it and it likes the idea of it. And people are very comfortable with it. People say like, putting the great back into Great Britain. You like, how did the great get into Great Britain . A lot of genocide, whole lot of war. We dont want to talk about that. Look at those lovely castles. Whereas america has disability, even as the march was taking place. America was reinventing itself saying there was a group from whatever the propaganda was. That works with the state department. Using the march on washington, a march for democracy. A march by people who had just been horse whipped was beaten and hosed to say, what a great country this is. There was this uncanny ability, in a way i havent seen in other places. To kind of deny what is on the other screen. To say, you can see from Barack Obamas election africanamericans getting on. And then you can just quote almost any statistic. That shows his assent has coincided with the ascent of larger africanamericans. Isnt this wonderful . You barely ever get to the end of the sentence. Is explicitly stated in the arguments. Either that day or before or after. The person arguing to got the voting act says this is for a problem that has been solved. The problems been solved. And that racism becomes only the systematic, that you need jim crow senior with a pointy hat and a burning cross. Thats racism. Whereas jim crow junior that denied all fraternity but he still there. He doesnt use curse words. He dresses very politely and he works within a system that keeps White Supremacy going by pushing paper around in a certain way and locking people up in a certain way. Saying just, these are the rules. There is this sense that the systematic is a lot easier to understand and see and portray and people are more comfortable with her. Whereas these this systemic, if the polar class, capitalism, the entire way in which america has been structured. And the way in which it operates. Those who own the screens, dont want to show that screen. What gary said. [laughter] [applause] i think were going to take some questions. I guess before we take a question, gary, ive heard you talk about this. I think part of this is what would it mean to remember king through sort of Different Things that were as important to his rhetorical presence. I think growing up in a malcom x household i did grow up with more affinity of what i thought malcom x was then king was. It was in the same way. I grew up with bob marley. When i started seeing white people whose racial politics are distrusted, rocking out to bob marley, a kind of said, i dont really like bob marley anymore. You ruined it for me. Hes good, you cant blame him for that. That does speak to the speech. Because in the speech, theres quite a long moment working talks about america has issued the negro a bad check. And we have come to cash this check that was marked insufficient funds. If you understand it as a check speech that it does bring the issues up today in a way the dream, which is a vision, the utopian vision. Does not. The metaphor is that with the declaration of independence or the constitution, all men were created equal. Thats the check that was written and it keeps bouncing. Once one understands americas racial history that way, it does do Different Things to how that speech can be remembered. There has to be a redistribution of wealth. You have to make good on what you say it means to be american. That is a very different way of understanding that speech. Also, 200 years ago, this is the shadow of which the man we stand point he talks about the legacy of slavery and investigation. When people take judge by the content of their character and not by their skin. Thats the only line know from that whole speech. It ignores the fact that he says racism has a legacy. And it has consequences and we are living with that legacy. What conservatives particularly, but i think quite often america as a country likes to do is to pretend that the past has no legacy. Even to take a different example. When you talking about the bombing of syria and you say what about iraq . People are like, why are you bringing up old stuff . Its still going on. They say, just because the last war didnt work doesnt mean this one cant. In july, that war is not over. Youre havent finished your main course and your very own dessert. Think about what youre doing. There are a range of ways in which that speech is even on its own terms, on its own terms it was not a radical speech. I was going to ask, if we call it the check speech, do i finally get my reparations check . [laughter] using the dave chapelle. [laughter] yeah. My fantasy is it would be called the white moderate speech. My favorite passage is that passage. Where he talks about the greatest stumbling block is not the clan but the white moderate who prefers order to justice. Who feels he can set a timetable for another mans freedom to paternalistic leases to wait. If we have that king, the work is not done. Related to that, there is this interesting i think way of understanding. If you look at how king shifts from being second to mother teresa. Then its a useful way of understanding of, who are we excluding at this moment . What issues, what characters or platforms are we decided are completely unpalatable. Just to remember how unpopular he is. When he gives the speech, the New York Times runs an oped in the next day with the headline, doctor kings error. The Washington Post runs an article, only 25 percent of africanamericans agree with king after that speech. That doesnt even get us to white americans. The degree of unpopular we forget. Like gary said, the need to reflect on who is unpopular and what that message may mean or where we need to go. We can reflect on whos popular. What is going to happen with the way we remember his legacy. We will again congratulate ourselves for electing the first black president and reelecting him. But not in a way that is accurate to what hes actually accomplished. We are talking about healthcare, a republican idea. We are talking the continuation of the wars started during the bush years. And grading again this mindset of perpetual war. And using drones and expanding that warfare. We are talking about mass incarceration. His administration has fought the buddhist continue to fight the war on drugs in much the same way other administrations have fought it. Even though they dont call it the war on drugs. What we can further the narrative of american exceptionalism and not reckon with their actual legacy. Its never too late and never too early to challenge the dominant narrative. And theres a that takes place between the dominant thesis in the range of antitheses. Its just very important to be in that struggle. Its not just the intention of writing this book is not just about understanding a historical moment. Its how we understand history as a direct relation to where we are now. I consider that an open site. And to fight worth waging. There was a funny thing. I was in belfast last week at a festival. I was being interviewed on the radio with a very quick interview. I got my 45 seconds of talking. The woman is wrapping up and she just said, and barack obama lives on what the legacy of Martin Luther king. Thank you for being on the show. I was like its like youre never going to get it all. This person writes, if the dream was an attractive metaphor for the end of apartheid, what would constitute a metaphor for the end of contemporary White Supremacy . A second question, what is todays revolution [indiscernible] wow. Yeah. The question is, can i come up with a metaphor that lasted 50 years. Get to it. I mean, one of the things thats worth questioning is given the way its been misappropriated, was that the greatest metaphor . It wasnt the only metaphor he used. It was one that was remembered. I do think that the state we are in, globalization in all its forms. Systemic as opposed to systematic. More systemic as opposed to systematic form of racism doesnt lend itself easily to metaphors. And thats kind of been one of their challenges. Event that wasnt entirely accurate. I cant match the dream. If i could, i probably wouldnt be sitting here right now. None of us will be around for the end of White Supremacy so idont think we should try to wreck our brains for a metaphor. [laughter] as far as, catchy slogans go, i believe that we will win. And thats it. One of them was victory of certain which was powerful given how unlikely it was. The point you make is its very difficult to imagine what the end of White Supremacy would look like actually. That doesnt mean its not worth trying. What i like about the dream segment is its utopian nature. Within 10 days, for little girls were killed in birmingham at a sunday school. There was a guy that didnt get up and say i have a 10 point plan. We can do better. This is not all we have to be. We havent even reach going on to what the next dream would be. Lets wake up and get to the end of that one first. I think king talks about time and against this idea that things just get better and better in progress. I think we forget this part that says time is neutral. The time, for things to get better, it requires us to act. This idea if you just be patient and be quiet, that america or the world is just getting better. The voices of opposition are better at using time than we are. I was reading and was struck by that. We have a question that says, are there any other historical figures critical of capitalism and has been the politicized . Must be. In america . They dont say but i think maybe thats theimplication. I dont know. I would look from for help from the audience. Can i phone a friend . I do think that theme in the Civil Rights Movement is taken out of how we talk about the movement. Yeah . [inaudible] its for the tv. May be in regards to him not being talked about constantly through the mainstream and other figures and whatnot. Wb the boys who dies on the day of the march w. B. Dubois. He joins a commonest party late in his life and dies on the day of the march. Wilkins, who is the head of the naacp asked him, will you read out commemorate. Wilkins says no. Because dubois is a communist. Its only when randolph says, if you dont do it, i will do it. But then wilkins does agree. I think there are people who are forgotten. Rosa parks is certainly misremembered. I dont know what her position on capitalism is but i do know, when asked about her position in relation to malcolm, shes like, i was always a much more believer in malcolms strategy than kings. At least, she could never quite devote herself to the notion of nonviolence. Really. Yeah, i dont know if there are any other figures critical of capitalism and the politicized. Mohammed ali would be a good example. Also, Gloria Richardson. The one thing we havent mentioned tonight is how much for both women participated and organized for the march and were in many ways shunted aside. One of the person that they was Gloria Richardson who was waging the struggle in cambridge, maryland. It was a struggle very much linking Racial Injustice on the Eastern Shore of maryland with economic justice. Richardson like the other women did not get to speak. Theres an amazing interview now. Sort of where she talks about what they were doing in cambridge. But also literally, sort of being recognized and getting to say hello. The microphone being taken away from her. But i do think richardson is emblematic of i think many, what we might say civil rights leaders who always had a kind of core of economic justice. There was all these other struggles woven through that. But again, Gloria Richardson, would be one i would put out there. Mandela. He had a critique of capitalism. It was also a different world. I would not have liked to have taken up in africa at that moment. Not that anybody asked. The freedom charter was a call for mass nationalization. A whole range of things. While mandela said his favorite form of democracy was british elementary democracy. Economically, he was a socialist. I dont think we will be seeing much of that when he passes. One of the things that kept him in prison was he refused to renounce any association with the communist party. Mandela would be another one who is understood as a nice old man. I agree that malcom x did the critique of capitalism. But they have to want to remember you to you. Weve got a lifestream question. This person asked him is there still a generation who remembers the fight of these leaders . How can we instill a new interest in generations . How do you instill interest in young people to want to learn history . I think you have to relate it to them. It has to be tangible and mean something to your present. I think thats what you find with a lot of youth activism. They are tied to and understand history and thats why theyre out in the streets. Because they understand that for them to have what freedom they have now, someone struggled for it. But they also understand that fight didnt complete the struggle. That they have a responsibility to take up that mantle now. And it simply is because someone along the way expressed that to them. When they put that copy of biography in their hands, they were like, this is your history. This is who you are and how you got here. Every time people are like him how do we do this with the use. Have you ever tried talking to them . They are not aliens that dont understand the way you speak or understand words. They are intelligent beings. You can talk to young people. I implore you. Talk to young people. I fine young people still receptive. Lots of people are still alive. Because it wasnt that long ago. 50 years is not that long. With my sixyearold son, if you want to know about segregation and science. I can just point him to his grandfather and grandmother. His grandfather crew up in atlanta. Both in the south. This is living history. And really, young people are not i think they have a keen interest in history. So theres this sense of history being used as a stick to beat young people with. In a sense, they are not worthy of the history they have been bequeathed. Is a six yearold kid and these are people whose names you dont know. In the history is made by people. In order for king to deliver that speech, there has to be marched in order for there to be a marsh, there has to be all of these groups in ten weeks. A lot of people. You could be part of what makes that speech. It is an ego thing that is a different thing but if you want to be hard understand how that speech actually happened. And happen because people might happen. Your people. It depends on how you tell history. Most revolution social and political revolutions are actually led by the young. So there are very few stories regardless of where it is, russia or cuba or wherever, young people do it. Birmingham changes everything. And it is young people. Making history accessible, not an easy words, but to add something that you can take ownership of. That is very important. It just becomes one more thing you have to learn about people that you are never going to be like. Wants to learn that. It seems so much more regal and unified. Gary starts with Franklin Mccain right. Is one of the young people in greensboro. And therefore young people that started. I think you go back and say i am free three friends, what can i do with three friends. I think thats what they are therefore. They are friends. Gary younge going back to rosa parks. Before her, they pleaded get my guilty and they start to go with. Wrong side of town, and she is pregnant. A 15 yearold girl. The dropper. They just offered. They dont just drop her from that protest, which is a strategical question. It is a moral question obviously. They dropper out of history. Altogether. When you reinsert her back into history, what youre saying is you are singling her out. You your 15 yearold girl, what is going to happen to you in terms of all of the bad things that you could do. She is part of the story. Another woman has been kicked out. In there is another name but i cant remember. When they actually file the federal case, that he segregates on these buses, it is it is called in smith and two other women. Parks is not on the case. Theyre wordy worried that it will muddy the waters to have her if her case is closed inc. They are worried about the case, is filed by four women. Two of which are teenagers. Gary younge if rosa parks is understood as part of the collective action when she makes her protest, and then 13 months, people want to work. Black people from montgomery, want to work. And beyond her test, you are involving large numbers of young people. Lots of saying mothers, lots of people like you the sand. Whereas if you only understand that there was this lady, she got tired, she didnt want to stand out, so she sat down. And thats the story of rosa parks. You get a sense that one individual person, well maybe if the story was told a little differently, it could been a massive collective protest. That involves people like you. What happens when you reimagine the story and not tell it through the male protagonist. Any reset of the women in this fight and you Start Talking about what helped largely this boycott about Sexual Violence in these black women were experiencing on these buses fun. When you have been what happens when you tell the liberals little boys the start. You should be bold narrative. When we are talking about how do you relate history to young people, you tell them the story. Nhl and the actual story. And you dont get them platitude. You talk to them as human beings. And you give them the truth. Gary younge host speech of every school child learned that rosa parks was courageous. But what actually makes it courageous is these people have done it over and over and over again and nothing worked. She made that decision that this is going to work but she doesnt believe it. She talks about it as irritating and annoying. But she doesnt see this is a new chapter. So i think when we tell the story, entirely beats us down and racism. While nobody stands up when an injustice happens. It feels like we are not unified today. We suck today. And we tell it as that she had done this over and over again. People she knew had done this over number. And that is what it requires. It requires long seasons of where it doesnt look like anything is changing. Gary younge and it is not recorded. Youre not doing it for the camera support for the show. You are doing it. That history are the facts of history news as such, are only the facts that we choose to present. Many people cross the rubicon. What made that history. Lots of people make lots of presents. Rosa parks makes lots of practice. What about what happens in that moment and makes that effective history opposed to the range of other facts. The king did the i have a dream speech many times. And all we know about is one. So when we have the standing speech in that way. It does open things up in terms of expectations. Do the expectations, i may buy protest in the world in a change. And, i mean, by individual protest. In the world in a change. But us too, there were many of us, may my protest and things happened. Many didnt work the first time. News betook i think will take one question and then wrap up and then there will be time for signing. So this is do you think that Martin Luther king would still be marching today. Absolutely. Why wouldnt he. Gary younge generally, led to these events, there was oil some desire to get you to talk with him. What would he say about this. Given everything we know, about his trajectory, it would be incredible if he was striking in memphis. It had gone wrong and where there had been violence and he felt the urgent need to go back and make it work. It is unlikely, deeply unlikely the king would return today to look at the jazz in the schools and the mental institutions and the food banks and then appoint allies and think that might work instead. Hallelujah. I think the questions would be when hed be marching today and who would be marching with him or against him or would anybody even know it. Gary younge host so i days after 911, rosa parks danny glover and a number of other leaders, put out a statement basically calling to the United States not to retaliate. The work to find justice in another way. Rosa parks actually lived to the present and we know it she would be doing because she was in fact doing it. But i think harrys point is how many of us knew that. Where was that covered. We can again have rosa parks go to a funeral. For civilian go to estate funeral of the capital. But did that person have four years earlier this with the United States should do and not do and at part of it somehow falls out. Comments. Gary younge history is not an object to process. In order to craft certain kinds of memory, and those memories of our number sentence. Its kind why we are here. So they cant forget you, and god knows they try. It is not like it was a foregone conclusion that we would still be talking about king even. If they cant forget you, then kill you with your kindness of remembering you in a different way. They will kill you twice. They will show you in a way that in a way that made you meaningful. Because it is ongoing thing, it is an ongoing challenge. Its a challenge that i feel is a foregone conclusion. I think these are struggles that we can actually, i dont know if you have ever quite when them but have traction. They have relevance. The relevance they have is not just to pass but to the present. History lives with us. As much as people would like to travel light, when they look around, the baggage is still there. To the point about the stamps. Most of my peers dont heroes dont appear on stamps. And they may put the pictures on there but they still appear. All i have left to say is to alexander. [applause]. Host thank you. Gary will be sending books. Oh yeah, and me. [laughter]. Thank you. [applause]. [background sounds] our programs on Martin Luther king continue now with cornell west. When 2015 appeared on our other show afterwards. To discuss markings politics. Since his death, his political views and diminish and sanitize. Is a real delight to have you here on the show. Im grateful myself are being invited. To have an occasion to interview you about this new edited volume on doctor king. The radical king Martin Luther king junior edited and introduced by cornell west. This is a real treasure of some of the most important speeches and letters and published documents of doctor king. What inspired you to do the project. I just want to begin by saluting you. This is one of
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