The hill, we also have ashley gold of the information and Alexandra Levine of politico. Ms. Levine, first question to you. Facebook has seen a lot of attention in this town the last couple of months. Do we expect what is going on with that case and do we expect further attention . Thank you for having me. Great to be here but 5 million settlement with facebook was a combination of this long privacy probe by the Cambridge Analytic data scandal was in washington so on one hand you have republicans and Industry Groups saying that the 5 billiondollar fine because its the largest go down in history of the agency that it meant facebook was being held accountable. On the other side you have democrats in Consumer Privacy advocates blasting the ftcs track record on enforcement and saying that because of facebooks size and how much money it has it will not deter facebook from bad behavior in the future but right now in washington we are sort of in this wait and see mode with facebook where facebook is still doing damage control to convince skeptics and lawmakers who, by the way, or watching facebooks every move to see if there are any received problems and facebook is trying to prove itself to the skeptics and lawmakers and at the same time only three weeks since the ftc find came down from on high for the party scene more steps from facebook, the most recent being that the most recent being facebook was paying contractors to transcribe user audio without people knowing which bloomberg reported. What remains to be seen in washington is turning the socalled tech slash how much easier to these revelatory measures will catch up to Big Tech Companies like facebook. In other words, if the outcome of your long privacy probe into a problem that affected 87 laypeople what will what is the bar now for future steps from Companies Like facebook and other large Tech Companies. When these privacy issues are bubbling up every few weeks were sometimes every few hours or days where is the bar now and what will merit a fresh investigation with Emily Birnbaum, same question. Almost immediately after we said found out they settle with Facebook Facebook disclosed they were also undergoing an antitrust investigation from the ftc which is ongoing and we dont know very much about how that has played out so far and then shortly after the department of justice there antitrust Division Announced they are probing him of the top Tech Companies that we can discern which companies they are looking into from their discussion of the investigation and find out that form of justice is looking into them for competition issues, and i trust issues. It is still so far unclear what will result in action and if it this is you know how much will this affect these companies but its a big deal to be under federal investigation with it makes me rethink every decision you make and what acquisitions you will be looking at et cete cetera. I want to add about the facebook investigation, facebook is the only company of the Big Tech Companies, google, amazon, apple that said yes, we are under investigation for antitrust. Been told by the ftc we are with the other companies gotten an inkling for reporting that they too will be under antitrust investigation but they are largely in the dark and dont know what theyre under investigation for if there even is an active investigation for any of those companies at the time that facebook is the only one where we know for sure this is happening and the thing to watch is how facebook treats the messaging apps Going Forward. Instagram was a separate company before facebook bought them and they were fairly successful on their own but we had a story out on the information today about how facebook got popular with facebook and facebook said we want to make sure were benefiting from how popular you are and mark centerburg is making the move to get his messaging app together that the company is harder to unwind if that is what regulators oppose and you can see these moves they are making in the background while all this is pending and making all the companies they like instagram and whats app fall under the facebook umbrella that will say you cant tear us apart and fully integrated so you have to keep watching those decisions theyre making. Must go to emily for bonds that this is the big deal could be under antitrust. Is definitely a big deal but even a little bit of Government Action can hurt your bottom line and can scare show holders and affect the way people perceive the company even if its a slight perception that the Company Might not be as accessible or might not make as much money so they have to be on watch with every business decision they make in public pronouncement they make because they know theyre being watched and they dont want an ftc commissioner to come back and say at this conference you said this but then you are misleading customers because what happened was this so they have to be really careful with how they support themselves Going Forward mac of the doj and the states are also looking into this book, is that correct . Is astounding just how much players there are to the antitrust investigation. Give antitrust investigation coming in all sides [inaudible] from the Justice Department for both chambers of congress from a number of state agencies that launch a formal devastation with antitrust month and as soon as next month and then also you could say that president ial candidates are another layer because the 2020 democrats are no doubt amplifying and address concerns your scene in washington on a campaign trail particularly with the rhetoric around big tech in times of corporate consolidation. Emily birnbaum, before we get on to other topics in the other companies how did the policy become a political when it comes to the tech company . Some people have described that there is this fervor among lawmakers in the u. S. Is concerned about the economy that there is too much corporate consolidation that people are not getting there bear shake that has been increasing and you can see that with the rise of Elizabeth Warren and so i think that some people will these are the Largest Companies in the world as a people will see them and in that attitude will be brought against them so thinking about the Bernie Sanders talks about him is on the way Elizabeth Warren talks about amazon and talks about google and facebook and shes trying to use these popular ubiquitys companies to explain why we might have a monopoly problem. I saw you nodding your head. I want to add theres many layers to how its politicized. The biggest and bad layer and then there is the line that conservatives have been quoting that big tech families are biased against conservatives. This is something they been laying around since last summer and it does not seem to be going away anytime soon. There is a perception that Tech Companies are too big because theres too much wealth in the hands of too few but theres also the idea that liberal thai people ending up in Silicon Valley calling the shots on content and they are all liberal democratic supporters and thats not necessarily true that everyone that works with these companies has liberal leanings and let them plead into their work and in fact theres not a lot of true intent to that the companies are biased against conservatives but its a political line that has stuck. I dont see it going away especially in the next election. President trump tweeted about google being biased just this week so its a lot of what was he on the camping trip. I saw you nodding your head. On the topic of monopolies i think its important to point out the Tech Companies are standing by the position that theyre not monopolies and that they do the fierce competition with in their respective sectors. You would have facebook saying that they compete with the snapshot for example a snapshot in apple as a nesting platform and then you will also have apple saying that its smart phone platform is competing with Google Android and his companies are sticking to their minds that they are not in fact engaging in anticompetitive behavior. When it comes to privacy legislation is this something we will see before the 2020 election . I think that most reporters on the they dont want to offer a timeline anymore and there lawmakers so there are a couple efforts in congress right now around privacy legislation so the Senate Commerce working group that has disintegrated and it became a negotiation between the Ranking Member and the chairman and then theres also a separate effort in the house and i think they put on past timelines that they got publicly so for instance, Senate Commerce chairman said that we will have Something Else by labor day and said that before the recess and im not going to promise that at all. There is still this california privacy law which is going to go into effect next year and become enforceable summer and a lot of particularly republicans want to have federal policy legislation before then but negotiations have been built and is a competent issue. Marketmaking issue. Theres appetite bipartisan the way there isnt on other issues but i would dont think i would say and i dont anyone else would say theres definitely going to be something before 2020. If youd asked me in january i wouldve told you for sure this is the top tech game of the year they will be legislation and theres never been so much momentum toward privacy legislation but over the course of spring and summer it really filled out for the factors that emily described and with all this antitrust and monopoly talk going on and so many other issues of tech the table is getting crowded and theres not honing in a privacy like they have been last year when i was the top thing lawmakers were concerned about linking to tech. Another word about privacy but theyre worried about other things too. Distracting the focus from getting a built on and theres something to be said for the public and the democrats being on different pages here. Even if democrats against and senate can agree on the broad outline of the privacy you got democrats in the house you want to go a further then the senate when it comes would become to the west and thats causing that to take place as well. Anything to add to that . Who are the members of congress we should be watching . On privacy legislation . Yes. When i spoke to people at the beginning of the summer they said stakeholders and they are looking closely for negotiations between senator cantwell from washington and roger wicker. That there had been a working group that evolved senator blumenthal and senator moran and senator from hawaii and that senator cantwell made the decision to step back from the group and so bilateral negotiations with wicker but those are still ongoing and mainly thats because of the august recess. In the house you have to Pay Attention to the leaders of the energy and Commerce Committee and from what i understand house judiciary is also going to step into the fight davis has been active from rhode island. Hes been active on privacy but is more active on competition and antitrust. Thats one of his main messages and is not the tech hes concerned about but consolidation across a number of sectors, not Just Technology but the most substantive efforts out of congress in general when it comes to the competition has been his series of hearings on consolidation in the media attack industries and what that does for competing industries. Hes had a series of repeated hearings there. He said expect legislation to come out of the efforts of his one to watch. Does tech policy sometime across party lines . You talk about Maria Cantwell and microsoft is in her state and then you have the representative from Silicon Valley, et cetera so does it cross . On the one hand, yes it does. For example section 230 of the Communications Decency act has been which is the legal lot liability shield that is tech platforms and Internet Companies and in unity and let them off the hook with any content posted by users on that platform. So while many things in washington one thing using across both party lines is our call for lawmakers ranging from House Speaker nancy pelosi to senator josh holly and outspoken tech credit in that section 230 needs to change. Some people are suggesting it should be limited it completely and some lawmakers are suggesting it to be modified or tweaked but it is certainly one thing that is against party lines. I honestly on section 2301 interesting thing here is on the one hand you have fire furcation of the internet where in the conversations on the one hand you have these fringe nonrelated [inaudible] and with this french website that has come to be seen as a briefing ground for mystic terrorism and Online Violence and it was the place where several gunmen on several occasions posted allegedly posted on race manifest with Mass Shootings. On the other side you had mentioned platforms like facebook, google, twitter and for all the talk of the chance being french and not mainstream for the talks on Big Tech Companies saying that using terms or blanket terms like social media or internet when were talking about violence online is unfairly grouping them so the one thing that we have in common is section 230 and that they can stand behind section 230. Section 230 has grown increasingly controversial here and at the center of the growing debate and democrats saying that section 230 is giving Tech Companies cover for not doing enough to fight things like hate speech and disinformation over publicans are using it today that Tech Companies are biased against conservatives. In the figure scheme of things section 230 certainly is something that everyone can agree needs to be looked at more. Tech companies can agree that even if theyre all fighting with each other on other stuff they are together on section 2 230. We have heard that [inaudible] might be coming to washington for a hearing. He is they are hauling him before the House Security Committee which has been increasingly under pressure to do something about these extremist fringe platforms. Jim watkins is the owner of [inaudible] and lives in the philippines and continually defends his website, even as its been implicated in a string of Mass Shootings this year. You know, i think that there are a lot of questions about what utility it would to have that there will be in bringing them before congress will this be an Educational Opportunity . You know, the chairman of the House Committee Bennie Thompson told reporters a couple months ago he learned about [inaudible] so lawmakers themselves are still in process of learning what these platforms are the rest of the public. It could be a learning opportunity for some extremism experts i talk to is that it could be empowering to have him walkins walking through the halls of congress and this man has helped hone and support a friend potentially dangerous Online Community as it stands [inaudible] is still offline so it was offline with a Couple Services dropped the support for the website in light of the el paso shooting which was where a white the premises manifesto was committed to the shooter. It still offline and they say theyre working to get it back online but if it does go back online the mainstream web it will probably not be as strong as it was before. Miss birnbaum, i apologize you used the term hauled in front of congress when it comes to jim watkins. Is this a case of being subpoenaed or not being were not coming willingly . They originally said sent him a letter sent implications and said please, come with like to talk to you about the issue of white extremism on your platfo platform. He responded over email and said im available by phone whenever you want. It appears that they did subpoena him. Under the spotlight and they are going to have a hard day so more often than not it ends up being a learning experience where they get to ask questions, ask anything they want sometimes completely non germane to whats going on and it ends up being a little bit embarrassing for congress and enlightening for the people watching but altogether not as big a deal as it seems. Even when Mark Zuckerberg came, some of them asked Great Questions but they were learning how the Technology Works and despite all the chatter right now about big bad tech and what should we do about it, we are very much of a learning and listening mode and i think that it will be no different. I thindifferent. I think that is kind of how the House Judiciary Committee launched the investigation around big tech and a lot of the things ive heard others its an Educational Opportunity for all these members. Another thing to watch while it makes its way to the hill is how its going to turn up the heat on the mainstream platforms like facebook, google, youtube. As soon as you are talking about going offline and remaining offline within days or hours of going offline, you had prominent voices in the Tech Community blaming these mainstream platforms where for example the chief Security Officer came out to say that mainstream platforms were spreading it amplifying content and hes now calling on them to do more and also to do with congress cant do and saying they may ban all content about the platform so you may have that digital liberty saying that he would or should follow suit. Emily birnbeaum, what i whate status in this country . It is so deeply abhorrent on capitol hill who say theres a varietthere is avariety within e is widespread distrust and skepticism and its equipment to process a National Security threats to the united states. Sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish, you know, what type and what is evidencebased we do know that they have some ties with the government and its saying right now it is in a life or death moment because of all of these efforts to cut off its relationship with the u. S. I think as of right now it is one of the most prominent and consists of Tech Companies people are talking about and concerned right now. It is indicative of plates and talked back and forth like a political football as you were saying just how closely our ties are with Chinese Companies how hard it is to extricate ourselves. This is because we have people in the rural areas that are using huawei equipment if we dont want to cut off their connection but the fact that they want to cut them off and realized they couldnt because they are tethered in this way to show the danger of assuming any technology coming in from china is bad because we use so Much Technology already it would be impossible to completely extricate ourselves from it and the fact china has been so political with the trademark. Alexandra levine, as the fcc been an activist under donald trump . The fcc has been recently criticized for its antitrust particularly in light of the tmobile sprint merger that closed about a month ago which approved the 26 billiondollar merger that left a lot of critics complaining. They ruled the Net Neutrality rules are eagerly in the administration to ensure what the obama officials thought was a level Playing Field for the companies for the lower prices for consumers. The fcc was pretty active and then they sort of slowed down a bit. You havent heard lately. The chairman is sort of trying to ride it out and see how the rest of the administration goes. The Net Neutrality debate was so high estate and now we are waiting to hear the results from the court cases on Net Neutrality and the major things theyve been focusing on like broadband mapping and there is some overlap at least between the commissioners spel cbs and viacom have been wanting to merge for a while to stay competitive with all of these Companies Companies what have we not talked about that we need to talk about thats coming up this fall . Primaries. Elections activities Mitch Mcconnell has been holding that up that serves as a source of contention for many people. He traditionally doesnt like to set any rules that mess with global elections or that would impact. A lot of people were calling him knockdown nature because of that but its more complicated. I think there is a fear for not only hacking in the voting booth but the information of course i dont think that they would sit here and tell you they are ready for 2020. They were completely blindsided and they are still making sense of it there is no way they are ready for 2020. The fact that we solve this emerged earlier in the summer, that is a win we are talking about Election Security and campaigns, that is a precursor to what experts and people who follow this very closely are saying its just going to happen over and over again but in ways we might not even anticipate right now. So, instagram is expected to become a bigger problem. Sometimes it seems satirical but they are actually a way to spread disinformation experts say are going to be more threatening, an and there is alo this question of is the government ready, is the public ready, and if the answer is seems to be none of the three are ready. It takes a lot to teach the public and that is a much bigger problem to tackle than simply putting out alerts to people. It has to do with overhauling the entire Education System in some ways. They are definitely more prepared than they were the last election that they are struggling Speaker Pelosi went online and they were struggling and the government have put forward sort of a hodgepodge of different ways to address this information, but none of these things have really moved and many critics are saying that they do not contain the problem. Unfortunately, we are out of time. Alexandra levine, ashley gold and Emily Birnbaum have been our guests area thank you very much. This communicators and all other communicators are available as podcasts. Discussion on the 2019 Chicago Council survey which gives a detailed look at americans use on Foreign Policy and international relations. Hosted by the Woodrow Wilson center in washington, d. C. , it is one hour
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