Before we get started i need to type that you should silence your cell phones please personal recording is not allowed. After the session each of the authors all will be its a mass in your festival program. We have three terrific books. To the far left. John ward book. The fight that broke the Democratic Party. My former Los Angeles Times colleague. As someone who is about to turn 75 i lived in a great number of the events described in this book. As i was saying to miriam just before the program started the first event i remember is as a High School Freshman in 1958 a great year for the Democratic Party in california was a big democratic sweep. The voters of california were wise enough to reject an anti union right to work law. With that as a start. Tell me a little bit about what makes the brown family distinct. There are so many pieces of that but i will try to focus on a few of them. The democrats who have not held power in california for a very long time to think of california as a very blue state now. Gavin newsom was only the fifth emma craddick governor in modern times. Pat ground their symbol of the party that your was a broom. It is a major change in the politics of their state. For me im a new yorker five birth. Dont hold that against me. I made the wise decision to move down here. It was very clear to me how fascinating california as. And the things that make it very special. There are some new ways in which the family of the browns really speaks to that. In the book is a story that focuses there. On honesty of governor. It really goes back for generations to start with the greatgrandfather august shackman. And speaking of places that people dont know much about. But when i met jerry brown he was in the process of building what would become his retirement home on the land in colusa. In the 1850s. The ark of the family in so many ways parallels the history of the state of california and they are perhaps they are so passionate about california and the exceptionalism and has had such a profound impact on the state. And through them it was a way for me to really sort of talk about the things that made it california exceptional as a land of immigrants. Theres so much that happened in the early history. As a hotbed of innovation. They were immigrants and the women in the browned family and something i read a lot about. They dont get a lot of attention when you think about the browns as a dynasty. But from the generation of jerrys grandmother who was a very smart interesting self educated woman it was a very precocious you get it. But have a life as a wife and a mother. And the first lady. To kathleen brown. She was state treasurer in a very bitter race. The family really speaks to a lot of those core issues about the state. I think one of the most enduring legacies. They have just finished for terms of governor. As the environment. I think one of the things that is striking about when youre seen. That the rebels in california is that pat brown used to go and take the kids to yosemite and other places and he felt his known as this garrulous guy who would stop every truckstop to talk to people but also he have an incredible appreciation of the states Natural Beauty and water and so on. Talk a little bit about jerry and the environment in the family. When he climbed the half dome he mentioned at some point. I said my father did it so i figured i should too. The browns pat and bernice who were not wealthy when they have four children they took their kids every summer and that made a very big impression. He worked for many years in the environmental movement. The environment he may know that. He is very much still a jesuit. And thats an important piece to him. He talks about the environment and the absolutes of it. Being in some ways in the past. Both of his terms was very very dash mike early in car admissions. In the standard for the country in that. As an advocate for Climate Change in the last eight years where he really used the pulpit of california to affect change on not just the state but the international level. When i talk to people from new york and i tried to explain california. The environment and the outdoorsman of the Natural World our something that are so important for people here its not that the weather is a joke it shapes how people live in their lifestyle and also the economy. So the whole familys commitment to the outdoor world and the fondness for were was a way to talk about a lot of those issues. When jerry brown was governor of the first time he could not see the mounts here because of the smog. Its also been a bipartisan issue in california in a lot of ways. As president the anti environmental actions as governor was a very strong environmentalists. And because he claimed of the last demagogue. Theres a lot of ways in which the environment has been over times something that has allowed them where they got the republican votes for one of the cap and trade provisions. And talked about some very good things that he thought he have done. A Strong Alliance between them. In the energy commission. He interviews dash mike intervenes. Just one other quick question about jerry and his father. Climbed the half dome. And definitely in that direction. And that has impact on his first governorship. A lot of it philosophically. There are aligned. But their personality could it be couldnt be more different. They shook hands with their father. It could not be more different in those ways. Some of his campaigning pat was incredibly old cell politician. Every time he ran for election starting when jerry was five years old he would have a photograph with his kids. When he filed his papers. They were paraded out. Jerry talked about that later. Never wanting to put his family through that he would not march in parades. When he was governor the first time refused to send autographed photos to schoolchildren he thought it there are all of his papers from high school on and their hundreds of boxes of his archives that i went through many of them. There are the great legends. He have the exchange with the school child when jerry was governor who had gone 49 governors to send him back. And really wanted that. Somehow appealed to pat brown. I told my son that he should do this. But children frequently dont listen to their father. One of the things that weve learned in recent years in politics and other spheres of life or that women are underrated. Youve written about an underrated woman. Tell me about some of the things that barbara bush did that they only have a different awareness appeared. This is the first time ive been at the la times book festival. What a fantastic event it is. I want to thank the la times for sponsoring it. One of my visions was no one would show up. And will be wed be sitting there talking to one another. I had covered the last ten president ial elections really my only job skill in seven of those ten elections. They played a personal role. I think youd be hard put to find someone in American History who played an intimate role in so many president ial elections and in american politics and yet in covering those elections people almost involved in variably liked barbara bush. They saw her as kind of a motherly figure who could be funny. Thats not untrue but that is really incomplete when you think about barbara bush because she was also sharp and caustic and she could you be kind of mean there was a time when i was covering her husband that she was mean to me she was important advisor to both her husband and her son sometimes when they wanted heard her advice and sometimes when they did it. And she lived a life of real consequence. I think youre quite right. She was underestimated throughout her life. She was born in 1925 thats five years after women got the right to vote. She was underestimated by her teachers. And looking at her high school transcripts. Her iq was 120 which is pretty smart. And yet she was a thoroughly undistinguished student. The only a she ever got high school was in physical education. She was underestimated at her husband who initially did not seek her advice on running for president on moving from the east coast to odessa texas. When he came and said to her i decided were to move to texas she said ive always wanted to live in odessa texas which is something no one has ever set ever. As their marriage went on. As opportunities and expectations were on. Her role changed from being the helpmate to be in a real partner for george hw bush. And you ask about some of the things she took a groundbreaking role in addressing the hiv crisis that was exploding in america and have been largely ignored by the reagan administration. And the actions that they took towards that. And her own actions in for instance visiting grandmas house during the first hundred days and picking up a 6monthold boy who had aids. It was a message across the country that was incredibly powerful. What a powerful statement that was. He did make a speech did not scold anybody. Just brought new photographers with her. And demonstrated that you can hug them and have them and pick them up worked beside them and not be afraid of that. There is another thing that she was conjure versatile about. In the negotiations. To end of the cold war. You may remember that nancy reagan had a very frosty relationship. Publicly basically feuding with each other. I do not blame nancy reagan for this. She lectured everyone on the system. The fact that she and nancy reagan had disappeared was not helpful for the negotiations that were going on between their husbands. Barbara bush told me she looked at that. And thought that was stupid. Not because she didnt understand because it was so unhelpful to her husband into the nation. They wrote a letter to her brother scott the day before she was going to him for the first time. And she said im going to love her no matter what she does. And she cultivated her for years. I remember once i was covering one of the summits that they have and she walked out of the Summit Holding hands. Women from right new york. And she walked out Holding Hands and looking like she was totally delighted to be Holding Hands in i was trying to Research Whether it mattered. The Prime Minister of canada and the foreign leader who was closest to george hw bush. And he said it made a huge difference to head him. The voice he trusted most to have her feel that the american president and first lady were treating them with respect. A conversation between helmet pole that was in the chancellor of chancellor of west germany. And they talked about barbara bush. He was a woman of consequence and importance. Not only by her family and their teachers in some cases by her husband and i think some cases by herself. You are just mentioning the end of the cold war. Theres another one and like you to talk about. The acute political sophistication. In 1991. They made a visit to moscow. It was in the process of disintegrating. And Boris Yeltsin was basically trying to create all of the things he could. It have not yet happened. So they go to this reception and all of the other leaders have arrived and gone into the grand hall where the sinner has been held but not yeltsin. This raises some suspicions on the part of the other leaders on whether he was trying to do something tricky as he often did. So he finally arrives. And says let me escort you into the hall. Walking into the hall on the arm of Boris Yeltsin would send a message to everyone in that dinner and people are watching around the world that yeltsin was in and gorbachev was out. So she turns and says that gorbachev was going together. And she maneuvers it so that three of them work in together. The United States is not taking sides. In the friction in the dispute between yeltsin and gorbachev. This is a split second decision. There was no one to advise her. It was her own sense of the moment and her sophistication that enabled her to handle that in the way that she did. One of the other things i thought was very striking about the book and you bring it out there was an incident perhaps wellknown incident at the time they have invited alice walker a renowned author and writer maybe the most famous color purple. You would really like them to come. I want to have you talk about that a little bit. I remember very distinctly. I remember one saturday it was a sunday morning i met with my motherinlaw at her house in san diego. This is the day after barbara bush had spoken at wild sleep. I just want to read a passage and then had susan talk about the incident. In the context is everything is changing for women in this time. And some women felt like she was not the best role model. That her own ideas and she stood up for her own ideas and she said something i just want to read. At the end of your life you will never regret not having passed one more test, we need one more verdict were not closing one more deal you will regret type not spent with a husband, a child a family or friend. I need to Pay Attention to this woman. Over the objections of the chief of staff. They would not be friendly to her. Some of the graduating seniors. They started a petition drive. Sane and she was not an appropriate role model. Her fame was derivative from the mans she had married. That was not the message that they have earned in four years. This became an international controversy. It was a time they were trying to sort out how do you balance job and family. What are the appropriate roles for women. It became a lightning rod for a debate that was going on in our culture. And i was hugely will need to her. In her and public in her diaries which to my astonishment allowed me to read. She was hurt. It was part of her complicated feelings towards the Womens Movement because in my view she acted like a feminist. She have her own views. She felt strongly about things. She never talked the talk of feminism. In one of the five interviews that i did with her. I tried to get her to say she was a feminist. And we we went around and around. I think that is because she thought the Womens Movement have dismissed and diminish women like her who had chosen to stay home she dropped out of smith after her freshman year. Never held what people would call a traditional job. Some of these weve now sorted out as a culture. At the time she was mocked. The depiction of barbara bush during the 1988 campaign. I had forgotten that they pretrade her. It could not had been a less physically appealing version of barbara bush. The one sketch where a pretty accurate depicted. And then the interview returns to barbara bush and it says and i hear you are making a rug. In fact she was. I said to her. By the way you are sitting on the rug. She gave the speech. She was respectful for people with other opinions. But defended the choices that she have made in her home. They told me that they were to hold this up when she came back even if it was a catastrophe. It was a triumph. And she came back to the white house. And barbara bush who cried less than the other pushes have tears in her eyes. So in 1980. When jerry brown was in the middle of the second term as governor they were contemplating running for president against ronald reagan. In the Democratic Party in it was something that was happening that was very characteristic of the Democratic Party. One would be hardpressed to find an event where in a comment was not since teddy roosevelt. Running against ted kennedy. Our carter presidency was having a lot of problems at the time. He should be running for president for a long time. He would be hardpressed to find two people that were more different. Another one who didnt even have indoor plumbing until he was nine years old. They did not like each other very much. Think you for the introduction. Thank you for all of you who are coming here. And to the la times for holding this. It is a great presentation. I do see that miriam won the sticky note contest. Both johns and susan books are available and audible. That was the way that i consumed their books because i have to do a lot of driving in southern california. All of these books are where you learned something. Thats the reason why she won the sticky note contest. I got the idea to write this book in 2013. I was at a dnc meeting. In washington dc. They have gone on to distinguished careers. In the Democratic Party. And they started reminiscing about the 1980 convention. They have just accepted the nomination chased Teddy Kennedy around the stage and he was essentially drunk on the stage in front of the entire country. And then i ran upstairs. And i ran into anita dunn. In that fight and split us personally and structurally for a decade because they did not win the white house until 1992. That was the beginning of a journey for me. In deciding to write this book. I realize that no one had really told the story. In the victors often went in to sign the fine history. So i was intrigued by this. As i got into writing this book what really came as a surprise was a psychological profiles of each of these men in the way they intersected and interacted and collided with each other. And this is really the thing i enjoyed about the book. There is a lot in it that has clinical import. To me learning about these men in their differences was the most fun. I was fascinated by the fact hit so much weight on the back. He have his family history. His oldest brother was killed in world war ii. All of the expectation of the Democratic Party to revive the dream of their glory days and yet he have gotten into politics in part because his father told him too. When he graduated law school after the 1960 campaign. He did not want to go into politics. In massachusetts. He dutifully obeyed. I began a lifelong career in politics. That was not his choice. So you fastforward to both of his brothers been killed and hes been called on to run for president. Does he really want to run for president. He didnt really have a say in the matter. When you add in the factor of the acquittal. You have this complex portrait of a man who is still expected to run for president cant run and 72. Kennedy is the choice of democrats. That is before the hostage crisis happened. And maybe we will get to that. The door is so wide open for Teddy Kennedy to run in 1980. I dont think theres any way he could have said no he has pushed, pulled, dragged and maybe pushes him into running. For president. I never really understood if he ever wanted to run for president. He died four years before i started writing this. And a few of the kennedys would even talk to me. I tried to talk to his second widow. I went to the opening of the institute in boston on a cold snowy day. There was no mention of the institute. They have a quote from his speech. At the end of the speech where he talks about the dream well never die. There is no mention that it was at the end of the year which he ran for president. And when i approach them to talk about it. She demonstrated that she has no interested and in talking to me for this. I think it was a necessary exorcism to rid himself of these expectations so that he could get on to actually being what he was good at. He was good at being a lawmaker. Taking what he could get in legislation. I couldve never got that. And i get the scent that he did talk about it. He said publicly he feels like his father have a form of ptsd. From the experiences of watching his brothers be shot. But he did not talk about it. I just think jimmy carter is fascinating for all of the ways that he has misunderstood and underestimated in short i think the thing i can tell you in the book that will make you laugh and also raise your eyebrows. The famous gonzo journalist once said that jimmy carter was one of the three meanest people hed ever met. Along with mohammed ali. And i think the experience of understanding some of the psychology of jimmy carter the incredible drive to come from the dirt of southwest georgia. To will himself to the naval academy. He also when he went home after his father died similar to the bushes he did not consult with rosalynn. He basically made the executive decision. To will himself into that. The incredible corruption that he experienced in southwest georgia that he fought to get to the state senate. And then willing himself to the presidency. Never a member of the establishment. I think it is incredibly underestimated this. Speaking of his ex presidency. There is no a second act second act in american politics. An incredible second half. The amazing record. The model of the presidency. What you talk about that for a bit. They have re invented for the post presidency. Poster presidency. And he has mediated conflicts and hot spots around the world. Its a very painful disease that people get through stepping in dirt or water. He has almost through his work there singlehandedly is almost completely eradicated from their work in africa. When he started at the carter center. Nobody had really done anything like that and since he has done that. Other ex president s have a kind of followed the model. You set up a foundation or institute in you set up in library and you do some good. Some have done it more extensive than others. Some have been far less public basing. As jimmy carter did it to the chagrin of bill clinton. But carter has set the template and model and been an inspiration to many people. As i mentioned kennedy went on to a great legislative career. Did tech take him another decade another decade until they were married. It was pretty jawdropping piece the deceased journalists. In 91 i believe and it was called ted kennedy on the rocks. Many a story a very bad misbehavior by kennedy and chris dodd. And fresh french restaurants across dc. He was in the state of not being a good place for yet another decade but in those last few decades has the accumulation of everything accomplished in the senate career. To me he is a model legislator. In a day now where we have some new people who go to Congress Really more to posture than anything and i just actually interviewed Joseph Kennedy the third he is now in congress and it was striking to talk to joe kennedy about his approach to being a member of congress. He is now in a majority for the first time in the house. He was very clear eyed in a way that i think is passed down from knowing ted kennedy and knowing his legacy he was very clear about what the job of the congressman congressman is and is it. And his goals should be in congress. Hes going for Mental Health legislation. He was very clear. He knows republicans controlled the senate. If you have to work on things that have a good chance of getting things. They now see the institution of congress as a platform for selfpromotion rather than an institution which they go to and work through. I think that is ted kennedys legacy. Its so fascinating that the history of that is almost erased with a great embarrassment at his institute. His concession speech lives on and so many ways. The ones that you referred to. When he endorsed barack obama for president he carried it forward. Its the issue of resiliency. And the characters in your books each in different ways have some resilience. Jerry brown when he was defeated for the senate in 1982. That was the end. A lot of people said he went off in the wilderness and not only that but in 1992 when he ran for president for the third time. They would not allow him to speak at the convention unless he he spoke. And used his 20 minutes that he was allotted because he had one a few primaries and have some delicates he was considered to be finished at that point in 1992 and come back and moved to oakland and all of his friends. They still live in San Francisco. Hes very much part of that San Francisco bay area word. What are you thinking. He talks about the jesuit motto. He quotes ladd a lot. But one of the models means do what youre doing. He doesnt worry about what the next thing is. At the same time he plans out. When he moved to oakland. He already have the idea that he would run for mayor. Obviously the second act of governor. And then the oldest governor. I had two quick thoughts based on what you guys were sane. One was about the role of women and how that has changed. And first ladies in particular and i was just thinking how bernice lane brown was born in 19 08. Generation before barbara bush. When she was can be a teacher she tried to hide the fact that they eloped because you were not allowed to be a teacher if you are married. That is that world of 1930. And her eldest daughter. Supersmart. Went to cal as many of them did. It was the 1950s. She is still bitter to the state. About the fact that she was raised in a world where you were to get married and that was the 1950s a 1950s ozzie and harriet world. A really important piece of the political career. She was educated. Pat never went to college. Always felt intellectually deficient because of lack of a College Education did not know how to pronounce words sometimes correctly and bernice was a really important part of his formative education. But always behind the scenes. And as the gracious first lady who entertained then you fastforward to jerry brown 2. 0. The second time where he was married to and gassed was born in 1958. And have a formidable career as a lawyer with the important corporate lawyer in the executive at the gap. And then gave that up and became the campaign manager. And was every bit his partner. He was the person to say that his success much of it was due to a and who kept him organized i dont do details. In she was the chief advisor into the governors office. Youd be hardpressed to find a woman in california who had more influence in the state a lot of ways that she did thinking about the political dynasties. One of the things i think distinguishes the browns is that they made their mark in california not on the national stage. By virtue of the size of california. They were National Figures but california is so big you guys me know this. La county has more People Living in it than 43 states. In many ways california is such an important influence on National Policy that being the governor of california although it is not the number one job that people want they made this very important constitution walk here. They were able to because of the size and nature and complexity of california. In your book. There is resiliency and a couple really important respects. One personal and one political. As a parent of a what the bush family went through with their youngest daughter i think would be worth for you to talk about that for a bit. You have to do the publisher. You did samples. Here are the chapters i would write. I have the first chapter. I think it would be about the 1998 election. The one that put it in the white house. In the moment of great triumph for him. When i wrote the first draft of this book i still have the 1988 campaign as the first chapter and i have a chapter about the daughter robin. And it just was wrong. I wrote a second draft that moved the experience with robin to the first chapter. The 1988 campaign may have been the defining moment for george bush. The illness and death of robin was the defining moment. She was 28 years old when her daughter was three was diagnosed with leukemia near neither of them have ever heard of the disease. The pediatrician said theres nothing you can do. Make her comfortable and tell no one. They called the uncle who was a dr. In the next day they flew to new york and began six months of really brutal treatments ive robin kind of an early form of chemotherapy. Nobody had ever been cured of leukemia. No recorded case of someone surviving the diagnosis. She was the strong one in the family. During robins illness. There was a moment when they were clear that robin was gonna die. They brought them home to midland so that they could visit. And see friends and neighbors in midland. All of these decades later some of the best friends refuse to visit them because they thought leukemia was catching. When barbara bush became such a force in changing attitudes. She was looking at people with aids through the lens of robin with leukemia. There are other ways in which the experience was with robin. It made her harder on the outside. She have a survivors armor. She no longer cared about what people thought about what she how she looked. She survived the worst thing that could have happened to her. It also made her more empathetic and the inside. George and barbara bush had a privileged lives. Full of opportunity they were beginning to think about going into politics. Here was something beyond their control. Their money in their status and their status in their powerful friends could do nothing to save robin. She got to know families who also have children with the key meant who are in much worse circumstance than she was. This was a lesson that she took through the rest of her life. The five times i interviewed her it was at her home in houston. It was in the living room of their house. In the living room there was a chair. Its where she would sit and meet with people or do needle. 2 something she liked. In the corner of the living not in a place of providence where she could see it. She can see in the chair was a portrait of robin. In reading hyundai awaits she would know today note today is robins birthday. How old were robin lee if she were alive today. Its the end of her life she told her nephew this was the most joyous time of her life and this surprised her nephew because she was in her 90s in declining health and he said why is this the most joyous time of your life. Because soon i will see robin again. I would like to now open the program up to questions and i do mean questions not speeches. Here in the front. I worked in the browns campaign. [indiscernible] do you care to share any secrets that you know about his future laugh dash future life for what he might be doing. I tried it never predict what he will do. He will stay very involved in some of the key issues that he has made has precedence in recent years. That would be Climate Change. Nuclear proliferation. His very concerned about the direction that the world is going in and will and will try to do anything that he can to address that. And also criminal justice. He have a profound impact for the last eight years. In the state in many ways. And a move towards a more Restorative Justice and more humanity in the prisons. I think he will continue he also said in a december farewell event for him. He said there were thousands of people there who can view supporters. I 15 million in my campaign account. Be nice to me i can spend the money on anything i want. I think he will get involved in the issues on the 2020 ballot valid coming up including some efforts to roll back some of his initiatives. I think he also views the ranch is a place that there are jokes about camp david west and the institute. He sees it as a place that people can come together to try to work out problems i think they will probably try to formulate that. Think you hear him. Getting your mike. Into the First Campaign at that time the entire country thought he was gonna to be the one instead of the other guy. The interview with barbara did that ever, did she ask any questions on that. He said that his mother said you cannot possibly win. Dont run. Advice which he ignored. George w bush had struggled in the passage to adulthood. He have some areas where he did not seem to be on a very serious course. His younger brother was always the one it was more serious who married me first. Went to work and studied harder. Interested in Public Policy. I think there was an expectation for both of these men when they ran for governor in 1994. Jeb in florida and georgia and texas that jab was the one or more likely to win. And i said what happened. George w bush one. An amazing victim. And it set him on a path to the presidency. Jeb lost that year he ran four years later and one the first of two terms as the governor of florida. It was a surprise i think to the bushes and others that it was george w who prevailed and it was george w. Bush who made it to the white house. Thats one of the things that makes barbara bush for unique figures in American History. There had been two women who have been both wife of the president and a mother of a president. There has only been one who has survived to see her son into the white house. Abigail adams died six years before John Quincy Adams got into the white house. They wait and not just with her husband but also with her son. He ignored her he ignored her again when she raised concern about the course of the war in iraq when he he was president. Her husband have made about not to meddle in his sons presidency and not give advice unless he was asked. He was almost never ask and he didnt offer it. Barbara bush made no such promise. She went to her son and said youre listening to much to dick cheney you need to listen to people like brazil cross. Advice he did not take. In advice i think a lot of people wish he have. Yes her right here. We are going to get you a microphone also. One of the things that impressed me. Can you speak into the microphone. At one time he asked for a big cut. He was continuing the excitement from the start. And he refused to live that way. And he missed to a small apartment. Have just one bed. This is true. Her frugality is almost well not. Thats how he characterized it. I think a lot of it goes back into the seminary in that very formative experience at a young age of living in a cell in the aesthetic image of jerry brown is accurate. It was good politics for him in many ways. It also is simply who he is and has said recently its hard to get him to buy a new suit because hell say i have a suit what i need another one for. His lasting contribution to california after arnold schwarzenegger. It was been written about being ungovernable. And not only restoring financial security. But in many ways through that restoring a sense of Public Confidence in government and that is something is very important to him in his father. We had time for one more question. [indiscernible] can you address the policy differences between them . As susan was talking about barbara bush and the personal experience shaping her Public Policy views ted kennedy also have a lifelong passion for health care. Healthcare. And was pushing for National Healthcare in the late 70s. Ultimately had to have his leg imitated. He spent time in the hospital with other families who are in certain states does. And that is what she described for National Healthcare. He was interested in National Healthcare in the 76 campaign encounter promised kennedy that they would make it a priority. But once he got into office he put it on the back burner. That was the biggest policy separation between them they were in many ways similar to each other on policy but i would say on the problem of inflation in the late 70s which was outofcontrol, carter was more interested in cutting Government Spending, through the money supply. And ultimately put paul at the fed who cut the money supply. Kennedy was much more interested in Government Spending to mitigate the impact on the working class and the poor of inflation. Those will be the two biggest policy differences that come to mind. I would like to thank all the panelists. I would like to thank all of you for coming. I urge you to read and be skeptical. [applause] you will are all part of a cohort of people we have to fight for the free universe. Thank you all. [applause] [inaudible conversations] good afternoon with the Massachusetts Historical Society and so happy that we celebrate historians as they present their book the problem with democracy with
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