Favorite . Im writing you this letter. I saw that you written something and you know youre a a liberal microphone is liberal and we having a terrible problem. We met several months ago. I really love her. Its a great relationship and everything was fine until she happened to see my car was parked next to hers and she saw that i had a decal on the back of my car of trump urinating on hillary. Now, its a joke, its a joke, but she was outraged and shes insisting i take it off. I think its funny. It wouldnt bother me if should something similar. What do i do . I was not expecting this. I thought this is very interesting. Discussed asking questions hes not just saying to hell with you, im leaving. I voted back and i said civility counts and you should take the decal off. And then his girlfriend wrote me and said thank you this is wonderful, and he did take it off and thats why, how i know that i really love him and this is going to work out. We are talking with you back your new book i love you, but i hate your politics. What are your politics . I excited gardenvariety liberal democrat. Im not a progressive. Im middle of the road. Middle of the left road. You are right wing. Middle of the left of center. Primarily on social issues. Im not a fan of identity politics. I am a fan of womens rights in every possible way. If we go to the things rick and i disagree about, i think theres pretty much no important issue at the moment that we dont disagree about, except theres one thing we agree about we believe that people use cell phones a lot and public should be considered for the death penalty. Other than that we have [laughing] but guncontrol, who certainly abortionrights, Global Warming heres what else. Before we get into some of these issues, you referenced your husband a few times, and this of course is richard brookhiser, the historian and National Review editor. How long have you been married . Since 1980. How long have you known about her politics . We met in the summer of 1977, so like immediately. Its important how we met because i think this makes our relationship possible. We met in a group on the street course of new york city. I had been in a group a number of years at the time, after i got my doctorate i wanted to do something other than read psychology books. Then rick joined. He had run a group at yale. He just had a wonderful voice and yet wonderful blue eyes, and he was really smart. I was really interested in the sky and i thought and she had a wonderful voice, too. And i said to them, what do you do . He said, im a writer. I said, this is good. Who do you work for . He said [inaudible] all right, one out of 28 bad. That was the beginning. Our waiting was quite an experience because of course bill buckley was there and the publisher of National Review, and, of course, russia was one of the people who is an a force of four mccarthy. And the man who gave me a way was one of the first people who lost his tenured position to mccarthyite politics in new york state. He was a communist also. I i do, this was her mentor, a y named ted, very smart guy, delightful guy. He was a communist all his life. He speedy if you live in a cultural, discount you would been killed on day two and less been in a position of stalin. Of the most important thing was that everybody behaved and one of our friends said, bedfellows make strange politics. Thats right. So that is how it started. I had an idea, because i was o naive, i could probably convinced rick of my position. I convince people for a living. I convince the decal guy. I could convince anyone. I started a very subtle campaign to enlighten my husband. Did he ever try to enlighten you . Were you already enlighten. Was no. I dont think he thought i was enlightened but he was much wiser and more sophisticated about this than i. And able to make efforts, talk to him and im not embarrassed anymore about it. Part of it, there was built in asymmetry because i was a political journalist and ive been doing it for years. I was used to people encounter people who disagreed with me. I was used to people, you know, debating them in public forums. I knew that politics was a world of disagreement and contention. I already knew this, and i had been to an Ivy League School and am living in the biggest, lewis city in and they grew up a common to. My first girlfriend tried to register as a communist. I had been, just by circumstance, not where i grew up but beginning in college and after. I been any liberal world under knew what that was like an a new how to navigate that. For you it was a new experience both politics and different politics. It was a totally different experience. I grew up in cincinnati, ohio. My father was a conservative city. Yes. My father was an eisenhower republican. My mother was a democrat but he was pretty little social issues. I think hes the only republican i i consciously have ever met. I went to the university of chicago which is not a rightwing institution, and so then suddenly im in the world of, william f. Buckley and people who didnt agree with me about anything. It was really an education at the world was a lot bigger than i thought. One of the reasons i think National Review in my book in the acknowledgments and some other places is it enlighten me to realize and also showed me that the other side with whom i disagree pretty seriously about an awful lot of things were extremely decent people in a lot of circumstances, which we dont tend to think of people that disagree with us so profoundly as being true friends, which i think is a real prejudice. I learned a lot. Over the years what was your relationship with william f. Buckley . He came to dinner here. I figured wed been there several times and bread conference, it was like living in a little kingdom. He loved box. Bok. There were times want to return hospitality so i had pat and bill to dinner. They got very good service from our dorm after that if i made n elegant dinner and pat said let me look at your closets. Let me look around. So she suggested to me, this was the early 80s, she suggested to me how to redo things and then suggested that i shall bill the russia the famous inkblots psychologist whose entente. It had come up in conversation somehow. They had never seen the cards. So i picked the card. Everybody knows rorschach but however how often have you seen the cards . I used to teach psychological testing and graduate schools i had the cards and i thought of the interesting to bill, and he saw a particular thing on it and what was interesting to me is he used the white space. The cards are black and this one had some red in the butt white space is oppositional because youre not using whats obvious to you. He completely avoid the emotional part which was the red part and he saw an and oil str. I said, i think i told him all of it thats what i thought he saw. His father was an oilman. His personality really fit exactly into this model of being different from what you were supposed to be, and also shutting down a motion. Intellectually. That was a neat experience. They were very gracious and it was a lot of fun. You had been married for nearly 40 years . This was 39, this last one. Its hard to imagine dick politics ever threatened that relationship . It never threatened us weve had some bad fights. And have to say i was instigator. Im not the instigating type, but around abortion i am. Something had happened, i think it was the first, this was my first and last real misstep. I said to rick, this is terrible. This is the end. Im going to have to protest in march. Im not a protest march person. And rick said, aimlessly if you march, ill march. On the other side . Yes. This was scary. We didnt want to go there. We had a conversation. We didnt talk, thats time that has happened. We decided that we were goingo table that discussion for the rest of time. We did okay. I didnt do perfectly. It took me about ten years to really learn so as husband and wife, you cant talk about that issue. Or you dont talk about that issue. We dont. Because you disagree 100 . Right. I started out with this fantasy. Like i said i change peoples minds for a living. That i which are rick the truth and, of course, he would understand because he understood everything else. He understood me. Rick is one of the reasons i became a professional writer. He has encouraged me in every way, reads edward i write, and its some of them. Very few. So over the years though it became unimportant for me to have to come every time something came up, Say Something to rick about it. It just didnt matter. I knew what he thought. I knew we were not going anywhere. But then there was a wild change, and this happened recently. Yes. I actually write about in the book. Before we get to that wild change, is that the advice you give to people in your new book, i love you, but i hate your politics . If you disagree speedy if you cant talk about it, dont talk about it. Some people can talk about it. They can find some way philosophically, but this issue was, i was too passionate about. It was too essential to me and we couldnt talk about it. Its the only thing i think in whole world that we cant talk about. You also make the point that there are other people you can talk with about. Thats very important. That it doesnt i i cant talk about this with anybody. It means that in my own home i give up freedom of speech. I can say it speedy thats thar psychotherapeutic advice to people . Yes. Although it has the conscious. It has to be neutral and just to stick to it. I couldnt say with this last thing in georgia, i couldnt then take the article at the brexiteer but the rick, read this, read this. Which i call article thrusting. Its a word i made up. It fits perfectly, doesnt it, what people do . Everybody does this. Read this, or send it to my inbox. I just, i realized this wasnt the way to go. I can to were i want. He contributes where he wants to what the vile thing was that the last you want to tell the story . No, you tell the story. Its one of the most precious things that ever happened in my marriage, and this happened when the book was done. You were editing. I was editing. Final edit. And i said rick, you know, its so hard to edit like this. You have to kill your babies just like Mary Mccarthy said, a famous thing about writers, get to kill your baby. And rick said speedy finally, you are prolife. We are having a laugh not about abortion but were laughing about our differences about this. Right and thats a very important distinction. Its not a lot about the issue. Its a laugh about the contention over the issue. And i thought look where we have come. Do you know what i did . Kissed him. She kisses me of the times. I know but this was very important. Of course. I was astonished that we both thought it was as funny as we did and i thought, weve grown up. Im going to be 72 next week. Its about time. But weve grown up. Are the other topics that you dont bring into your home . Well, that was the one we dont talk about. We disagree about many of the things and you can talk around the pier thats another strategy that she writes about. One way is to do it as a horse race, you know, your side really bungled that issue, or my side really got an on goal on this one. You can do that. You can to the politics of it. You can do the horserace of it. It people, you know, are more intellectual in their heads, they could like maybe talk about the backgrounds of these issues and why people take the positions they take, you know, the sociology, the history it or Something Like that. So there are ways to talk about things that are talking around them without going head to head on the merits of the case. I asked rick about the recent meetings but have to take the most wonderful thing for our marriage has been the election of trump. It may be terrible for the country but its been fibers for us because rick is a Conscientious Objector to trump. Hes a rightwing person who does not believe in trump. Ive been reading the New York Post since 1977. I have followed this mans entire public career. So sue me. But i understand how wonderful it is to actually be able to agree on something political. Hopefully we wont be able to do this all the time. We stood in line at the polling station in 2016, just jammed up. It took an hour to vote site stood in line for one hour in order to not vote for anybody. Who are your political heroes . These days very few. While reagan of course. He won a world war without a stalingrad. Thats pretty good. George h. W. Bush just past turkey had many i think limitations as a politician but he also had some positive qualities. I knew a little bit. I wrote speeches for when he was Vice President for about six months in which meant that i would get notes from them over the years. They spend most of at an address list at least a mile long, and he took that very seriously, fighting all the people that he knew. Even if he knew them just a little bit. Its important to keep the context of. So, Rudy Giuliani was a great mayor of new york. I even thought that he might be a president. I was wrong about that. What is it about donald trump that does not excite you . Let me answer that backwards. He has what he is brilliant at is selfpromotion. Now, thats what made him a success before he even ran for office. Hes not a Good Real Estate guy. I mean, hes terrible. He just ran through a fortune. When was the last time you on the trump shuttle or went to the trump taj mahal or took a course at Trump University . Its just a string of like wrecked airplanes on a runway. But, but he wrote the book, or he signed the book, about art of the deal. He made himself a personality and thats what he did. He made himself a brand. Hes a builder. Thats what he is. Hes a developer rather than a a real estate owner. So he helps build projects that event offers his name to and then return for which he gets a cut of it. That was a very successful strategy and then he got the tv show. So all of that, brilliant. His other brilliant quality is demeaning his enemies. Hes genius at that. He knows how to use media. In beating of the moment. People joke about the tweets storms and all that kind of stuff. No, its brilliant. This is a 70 plusyearold man whos doing what teenagers do but but we all pay attention. He sucks the air out of the room. He makes it all about him. The third thing he does is he demeans his supporters. Im not talked about the people who vote for him. Im not talking about them. But the people who become his advocates have to make themselves small. He requires them to be small. He cant have large allies or large advocates because they might take attention away from him. So if they have elements of importance for greatness themselves, they have to shed them. Giuliani is an example. Great mayor of new york, and now hes like trumps little, you know, its a very sad think that thats the kind of ally, was aaa la donald. Im not talking about nikki haley who is you and ambassador she had a job or members of the cabinet and so on, a lot of them have maintained their independence in the distance. If youre in their close, you have to be small. Hes very good at achieving that. Historically, is the country in good shape . Now, look, this raises a very interesting question. How important, and we dont have an answer to it yet, how important is the president to the presidency . Your author of 13 i know. Well George Washington but nobody is except for lincoln in a different way. How do we judge presidencies . Obviously we judge them based on the president himself, his ideas, his character, but its also circumstance. With James Buchanan had been the worst president in history if he had served at some other time . Maybe not. Maybe he would been sort of okay, mediocre, fine. Say a lincoln had come along at some dollar time. Would you have been the figure that he now is . So you know, you have to balance all that stuff. We are still only three years in this mans first term. Is that all . He may well get reelected. There will be time to make judgments. Jeanne safer, we interviewed you over a year ago part of a a previous interview for this new book. As the temperature abated a little bit when it comes to donald trump . Its gotten much worse. Every day it gets worse. When the kavanaugh confirmation hearings were going on, i got another risk that emails. My brother unfriended me on facebook over kavanaugh. My sisterinlaw broker engagement over kavanaugh broke her engagement over kavanaugh. You dont leave me. No, no. I do believe you. Ive read your book. Its gotten more insane everyday. And it has come from both sides. Absolutely. May be more so from that at that trump side than the protrump side. But i read a statistic that people are truncating their tanks giving to an hour or two less so they will not fight with each other. There was an article in the times, 17 things to talk about at thanksgiving other than politics. We needed someone to write an article so we could know something to talk about at thanksgiving. It has gotten worse and worse and worse. Did you see this as a psychotherapist, did you see this during the george w. Bush administration, during the Ronald Reagan administration . That was the beginning. During the Obama Administration . All of this was true but is under control to certain degree. I dont think youre getting parents saying they would rather their child very summit of a different race or religion than a different political party. This has become two worlds. One of the people that wrote me one of those letters was a guy come lovely guy, sounded really nice, who lived on the west coast. He was a trump supported. He had to take the fact he was a trump supporter off his dating profile because no woman would go out with him. He had been in the military. He was a very intelligent, thoughtful guy, and he met a wonderful woman. He really liked her and they have a lot in common. She went on one date. All her friends said we will kill them, we will strangle him. How can you do this . And she walked out on one date and she said i read some of things you wrote. He said wed talk to her . Would you be my gobetween. Why not . He sounds like a great guy. What is it somebody votes for trump i consider them the antichrist . Surely there are guys i agree with who didnt fit in well. So we had a long, long conversation. I wasnt trying to convince her to go back to but i said really, did you ever in a situation where somebody you agreed with didnt treat you well . And somebody you did didnt agree with treated you well . And i told her my great actually that was rix line, but this is the basis to me about matters in life and its called the chemotherapy test. Chemotherapy test is the fact that when you were lying on a hospital bed with getting chemotherapy in your veins, you did not ask the Party Affiliation of the person who is standing next to you getting you through it. We both came to this understanding by having been in that bed and next to that bed, and thats what matters to me. And who passed the test for you besides your husband . Rick passed the test because basically he was there constantly. My nextdoor neighbor who is here in new york. Yes. Who is a passionate National Review reader. She doesnt like trump either. She came and did my laundry. My closest friend at the time who was a democrat and a psychoanalyst never showed up. And also had a really remarkable story that i tell in the book and have a chapter called what is the core value . What im really argue is core values are not who you vote for. Its who you are. And whether you show up. Anyway, this is a young woman i know very well. I knew her father was somebody important in my life. When he died, he had five brothers and sisters, extreme progressive, serious progressivism. None of them did a thing. Who came . Her uncle, the exmarine converted evangelical trump supporter. He came, helped her with everything. And she did something that almost nobody on the right or left ever does. She apologized to him. They been bickering on facebook. She was saying all the stuff, and she said i misjudged you. You would only one who came through. Ill never forget it. Look, jeannie said, you can be taken aback by some of the results that you got in your book. Yes, i was shocked by how people on my side, not all of them, but how boorish leak, how outrageously of them active. For this one, this woman in california for her friends to say if you bring this guide to dinner im going to get up and smack his face. Who does this . These are adults. I was really shocked by a lot of it. Im not saying the right doesnt do the same stuff, but speedy and you give examples of the right as well. Absolutely. The notion but also the people on the left on the out party now. Thats fine. But i was kind of shocked because also because i had this expense with National Review where ive been treated with Great Respect and consideration. I know they dont agree with me, but nobody says im going to strangle you for bleeding in this or that. But the temperature has gone crazy. Mr. Brooke isa, has a temperature of the historic in this country as high as it is today . Yes. Look, we had a civil war. I hate the phrase cold civil war. You probably see that a lot. I i want to smack of those peop. We had 750,000 men died in the civil war. We just upped the figure. I know the a story who did it. He was a demographic historian and officially recognized figure for the longest time was six or 20 or six and 3000, those of the death reports from the union of csa. He just looked at the census and he said, you know where missing 130,000 men. So okay, 750,000 people, that would be 7. 5 Million People know, were not there. I dont think we are at the level of the founders were. Thats kind of my period. These great men who i revere, they went berserk in politics. I mean, secession plots. There was dueling. Thats a a big difference. They killed each other. Hamilton wasnt the only one. There was another sign of the constitution q and a duel. I just wrote a book about john marshall. One of his colleagues on the supreme court, republican, fit republican jeffersonian appointee, he killed a federalist in a duel. They had a duel. He shot the guy and he blood up in five minutes. It never came up in the senate confirmation. [laughing] because this is what it didnt have now. This is what gentleman did, and that was the poisonous political atmosphere at the beginning of our country. Vietnam, iraq war. In a lifetime. 1968. That was assassinations, bobby kennedy, Martin Luther king. Riots. The war on convention that was worse than now. Dont you think it is permeated at your . It seemed to me partly because meat has changed. Well, thats true. We are looking to media as our example of how to conduct conversations in our bedrooms. This is the worst idea that theres ever been. The worst idea. But its also because there can be meeting in your bedroom. Thats right. I tell them not to have it there but they dont listen. At social media, do your own tv show how every little tweet instagram or whatever is your very own tv show that you can do anywhere. And families, i saw them vicious things going on between parents and children, both sides. And between siblings, let alone couples, friends. I think its a way it permeates everything. Thats whats different. And also social media is a huge thing. There was no unfriending in 1968. You call that ultimate dis. Why . If you do that to somebody, it leaves a scar. I only interviewed one person, who reprinted somebody. I talked to 50 people in 50 different relationships. How did you find the people in your book . First of all the people wrote to me, i started within. Gosh, they offered themselves. How do they know to write to you. Rick and i bring about this a lot. Socoms up unlike google search. It comes up as Huffington Post and places that i read an essay called love him, hate is politics in my last book and that was published in the wall street journal. We arcana known as they go to couple. Some people kind of think of us, we did a show with jon stewart a few years ago about that. We are qaeda note with that, but people, i thought people were desperate. What i did is everybody i knew that i thought would talk and then of course i went to my friends at the National Review. One person gave me i think he gave the eight people that knew. You posted like a call for subjects. Yesterday and or people had and they wanted to talk. I couldve done 50 more interviews. People wanted to talk. They told me stories that i wouldve been embarrassed to tell. For instance, if id said a Powerpoint Presentation to my closest friend at the age of 25 saying that great ship till had done and nothing donald had drawn when you she didnt support you, no, who would do such a thing . Its so crazy. People do it. She thought she was doing them a favor. Of what i mention the article thrusting which is my big thing, people should never do. Are rachel and britney friends again . Yes. Except they dont know whats going to happen the next election. Shes expecting another powerpoint. R allen and george still together . Allen oh, you mean harry and alan. Yes. They are good friends. They are my favorites. They fight constantly, but they fight with graciousness. Original. They did something. Harry harry did something that n take as my model pic if you want to give an article to somebody who disagrees with you, he wrote to his friend, harry is allen is the leftwing guy he said harry, i have an article id like you to look at. Would you read it if i sent it to you . Anthony said of course ill read something that you send me also guesstimate times they did it . One time. Thats my model of how you conduct a conversation. Were we able to all these political conversations 20 years ago that we essentially are not able to today . I think more. I think there was a kind of a bubble of civility. Thats a nice way to put it. Say pearl harbor to vietnam. Of course macarthur was in the middle of that, but, and that was because the National Unity for the most part of world war ii. Pearl harbor and the split of should be given the war or not, you know . Yes, the war has come to us. And then the beginning of the cold war and, of course, the with disagreements about how to proceed, united on the goal. Vietnam broke that. But i think before and after, americans have been pretty incestuous. I still feel the difference. Theres something now that if i tell people im married to a republican who writes for the National Review, even though though im quick to say hes not a trump supporter, my speedy do you feel a need to qualify that . I think i do sometimes. But at this point people operate know it. I feel there is people kind of astonished, like even when they are graciously, how do you do it . Im like, like is this some astonishing feat . How do you go to a dinner for judge bork when he was turned out for the sprinkler . How do you do it . I said simple. I stand up during the standing ovation but i dont clap. You can figure it out. And i tried to find Common Ground. And guess what, there really is Common Ground if you look. Dr. Safer, have you ever brought richard to a hillary rally . Ive never gone want to myself. However, i did bring in to a branch of my psycho analytic colleagues. Very early on. This was early on. Was her a not a lot of analysis going on at that point . There was one person who called rick a crypto nazi. He was saying it jokingly. He thought he was saying it jokingly. He was attacked by me. I went into attack dog mode, which i recommend indie book is one of the things that you spew skits one of euros. Yes one of my rules, defend your spouse. And i said, rick left at all. Rick was very gracious and easygoing. He didnt want to make i said to this man whom i didnt know, i said, i want you to retract that. But this serious, serious accusation to make to a husband or he doesnt deserve it at a dont want you to say. I said it like that. I feel that this is essential to do, because if your spouse is good enough to be your spouse, to be that children with, their opinions deserve respect, even if you disagree with them. If you saw somebody walking down third avenue wearing and make America Great again hat, which have an instant judgment . Probably. And what would it be . But it would walk up to them and say are you an idiot . What you think . This guy is a a jerk that i was okay, you want to make a statement. There are a number of people and National Review who are my friends who think trump is great. I have not a lot but i have some. People will read the surface of the think this is anything. We never discussed like that anyway, but if i had a situation i write about where a patient i had for years, i thought he was a perfect person and he was going to move to canada when trump was elected her i said, what are you doing that . Thats ridiculous. He almost left me. We worked it out that this kinf stuff didnt happen before. It really didnt happen before. Politics has become the center of conversation. Almost universally. This is what people think about. Websites for dating are blue or red, you know . As though, well, my statement is i think political affiliation is a as good a predictor of happiness and connect ability and love as astrology. Its exactly the same that so far you get. Not terribly successful. Yes, thats what i would say. Idiotic i would say. You may get some pushback on that from astrologist, of course. Do you agree . About political affiliation . Well, look who i am married to. [laughing] the things we have in common are not i mean, they are about what matters in life. My first girlfriend tried to register as a communist. This was the year before i met her. We met in college and this is when she was a high school student. She would to register. I want to be communist. The register said i cant let you do that. Now, he was lying turkey was trying to skew this kid later problems. She figured out, she knew something was going on. She was furious, he wont let me register as a communist. When i i met her she was like a little less communist than that. And now shes more conservative than i am. But not when were going out. But shouldnt a married couple or spouses, whatever, be allowed to talk about anything . As a psychotherapist, dont you want to talk about everything . No. In their defense, very, very oldfashioned. You talk about everything just because you agree with so many politically, to talk but everything . Everybody has things that they think are very important, very different from you, even if you they have different history. They have different parents. There are fundamental differences between any two people, even if politics is the same. We had the fantasy now, its whitesburg we dont even think its a fantasy, the politics is our connection to others. I wouldve thought it, too, if not for rick. Rule number two, dont add alcohol to political arguments. Oh, my god, yes. Number one is dont measure voice. Number two is if we cant do this stone cold sober, how do you think we do when we had a couple of drinks . My example is, this lovely gay couple, terrific guys, i like them both, the only people who actually broke things with them because they drank first. They were both protrump . Thats one of my main point of the book is this is not about politics. This is about psychology. When we had these troubles, the service of psychology, the latent content, the important thing is the emotional content. Often the history of things. With these guys, they broke, one broke a marble table other broke a cell phone. Probably the most critical thing. Its that what matters here, is how you feel about things. Its who you are. And you cant change other peoples minds. You never can change other peoples minds. All of our conversations about politics are about trying to do that. Or fight about politics. I want to show you how youre wrong. But when you dont, what do i do . I have to face the facts are different for me. That youre a different person in my power to affect you is limited. And i can no more make you think the way i do. That i can make you fall in love with me if youre not in love with me. I call this the hope. The things that involve closed doors and sleeping in another room. It all comes from believing that you must change another persons mind. Nobody else, as far as i know, has said stop it except that you cant and then have a conversation. If you dont stop it, you will never be able to have a conversation. You will be until tuesday. Is there a medical diagnosis for the politics fights going on . [chuckling] id like to make one. There was a term from something i read that i thought was wonderful about why people pursue relationships with people that try to get to love them and its hopeless. Of course ive never done anything like that. I really thought it was a brilliant way to put it. Its not real hope because you know inside its not going to work. Its the denial of reality. I think this applies to politics now. We are denying to have other peoples right to an opinion. They have reasons for it that we dont know. And its their life. If you ask them about it. You can say what does this mean to you . If i can do this, this is a good model. I dont know if i can but ill try. Why do you feel that an unborn child isnt somewhat more important than the life of the woman carrying the child . If i can say that in a way that i really want to know and hear. One of the things thats very important is that ive come to the point that i can see a certain premises, that thats a valid position. Its not my position. Its a position i think is terrible in many ways. I can see that you could be a moral, decent person and think that. If you cant do that, you cant relate to anybody who doesnt agree with you. That would be the question mr. Brooke heiser that you would ask your wife on that issue . Let me inject a brief note of gloom. Williams soared was apparently a lovely man. The former secretary of state. When he was a senator. Before he got that job. And he loved his colleagues. One of the colleagues he was very close to was senator jefferson davis. Who had a lot of health issues. He had malaria. He also had i trouble. There was a period when set by daviss bedside. Tending to him. Cheering him on. Then the civil war happened. And he became lincolns secretary of state and davis became president of the confederacy. Did they ever speak again . I dont think so after the war. Id have to look that up. Im not sure. I kind of doubt it. Its a radical example. Lets not forget there are such things. But, and lets also hope. And i think with reason, that we are not in a similar situation now because that was over slavery. That was over the worst problems the country has ever had. Except maybe getting independence from england the longrunning effects we were still dealing with. Okay. Everything else, maybe we can manage it as a word and davis were before the guns went off. Another wonderful example, ginsburg and scalia. They were beloved fans. That agreed about nothing politically. Although scalia did send his opinions to ginsburg in advance. They really loved each other. He took her hunting. He took kagan hunting. There is a book about them. If those people can do it sitting on a supreme court, cant us mortals do it . Whats so fascinating is everyone admires them. Its amazing. Then we turn around and yell at each other. Why dont we try to emulate this . If you saw somebody walking down third avenue with the and make America Great hat again but what would be your reaction . I just saw a woman in union square. She was waving a flag that said maga for trump. Lgbt. I thought, this is a brave woman. That you hold to a present idea in your head without s ambassador to germany is a gay man. Hes very out there about it. President trumps acceptance speech at the republican convention. [multiple speakers] okay, but my reaction to this woman given where it is in new york city. Bluest of the blue. I thought, shes a brave woman. What i make a judgment . Again, this is like my professional body is kicking in. No i probably wouldnt because i know all kinds of people and they take positions for all kinds of reasons and also of different degrees. Like the gay couple you mentioned. One of them was a trump supporter because he figured, better than any democrat. Ive got to vote for this guy over hillary or whoever the democrats put up. So there are degrees of support. Different reasons why he would have a maga hat. Or im with her. Theyre are all sorts of differences. You are part of cspans historians where we rate presence. Where would you rank president obama at this point in early history. Low middle. He came in at number eights. In the final. Did you ask immigrants or republicans. 100 or so historians. I think thats present is. He was just around. We all know him. As henry adams said, time lays its chastening hands. On many things. Doctor safer, i have heard and perhaps you have too. If we could just have Ronald Reagan back. If we could just have back. Is there a loss of history there . There is a loss of civility. You think the times were civil . Reagan and tipple neil hated each other. Hated each other. And they worked together. Tip had his irish anime and reagan had it too. When reagan was shot, there was a dj on i think radio that the theres always horrible stuff like that but i think the level of civility was greater, i do. Reagan was more selfcontained than trump. It wasnt i dont know if they had twitter, he would have gone on this way. And trashed everybody. Have you ever applied your psychotherapy to donald trump that you see out . Ive never done it publicly as a therapist but i believe hes a pathological narcissist. I think hes a dangerous, frightening, empty man. And i pray that this would be his first and last term. I think hes doing serious damage to the country. I really do. I feel that more and more as time goes on. Particularly with congress and refusing to allow them to see things. I think his narcissism is taking over more and more and i do feel that way. I do. I feel very frightened by it. I think we will survive. The only thing thats good about it is i have plenty to write about. I have plenty of people writing me. My husbands voting for trump, what do i do . 63 million for President Trump and 66 million for Hillary Clinton. Are those 63 million americans sexist, racist, bigoted people . Its very complicated. Some of them are. Some of them some of my patients did. Whom i love. Theres all sorts of reasons to do things. Some people voted for trump and i think despite that, they are great. Some people voted for President Trump and i think they are jerks. I think its much more fuller than that. Although i do feel heartened by the demagoguery of it. Do you have that reaction as time goes by . America is a great big ship. Well, its is. Even the republican ship. A smaller ship but still a pretty big ship. But storms pass. That keeps me going because i believe ricks understanding of history is so profound. That if he can see that. Then we will survive this too. But i dont like what i am saying. You have a new book coming out, give me liberty. A history of an exceptional american ideal. Im trying to jump to the nationalism today which is a very hot topic. Partly because President Trump but all around the world. So my argument is, the defining characteristic of our nationalism. Is our concern for liberty. I look at 13 instances from the first meeting of the General Assembly of jamestown in 1619. To the last one with reagans tear down this wall speech. Where i show americans, even before the united states, reaching for this. Aspiring for this. Defending it. This is what makes this country unique. This is ricks passionate book. They are all passionate but this is directly passionate. I really wept as he read it to me. With joy. [laughter] what struck me, he talked about the regular people who created liberty. In this country. Particularly people ive never heard of. Which was a bunch of people who allowed quakers to come in. Right here in new york. Some of them got tortured for it. Half of them couldnt write. Peter stuyvesant and was probably the best man new york had mayor new york had until giuliani. [laughter] he was very efficient and also a maniac. Its got to be my way and a control freak. His particular issues were, he was a bigot. If you werent and some other calvinists, the hell with you. He believed lutherans and jews. [indiscernible]. Quakers had no friends back in holland so then he really went after. He tried beating them. Kicking them out. Finally he said all right, no more quakers in New Amsterdam and they cannot come in. No one should harbor them. Some people in the village of flushing, now queens. If President Trump wants to read one chapter of that book, this is where he grew up. This was in flushing. They wrote sort of an objection to his command saying we cannot follow your command because this is against our understanding of our religion. God wants us to do unto others as we would be done by so we will welcome these quakers here if they call. They defied him. And he threw them in jail. He interrogated them to be bullied them. It really leaned hard on them. But this was like a statement and then finally, he had to back off even where quakers were concerned with his employers seeing the fights going on and said cut this out. What jeannie was think about the ones that couldnt write. These men from flushing signed the statement. Prefor them have to put there. They couldnt write their names. If they lay down a marker. The whole book is like that. Its one thing after another that youve never heard of that made this country, aspects of it, the way the speech reagan gave about the berlin wall. The guy who wrote it and how they thought about it absolutely fascinating. My first reader. We read them aloud to each other as we are writing them and sweating them out. When you get to page 200215 in your book, jeanne safer. Talking about abortion. Did you read out loud to your husband . Absolutely. Because it was the trajectory that i was able to follow. It was growing up. It was realizing what a marriage involved. And it doesnt always involve speaking your mind. I know that this is a very unusual statement for a liberal. One of the things you have to learn is not to say. That doesnt mean not to feel, not to think, not to do. But, some things are just provocations and they arent going anywhere. I wish people would notice. Can you help us understand what manifest content is a little bit . A term you use. This is from psychoanalysis. Manifest content is what we say. Content is what underneath. What are the subtle aspects of it, that kind of thing. So you can Say Something and it can have a different meaning. Or a more profound meaning. I look for the latent content. Whats the underneath of things. One of the things that was thrilling in this book, when i interviewed people that i asked questions and they told me. They didnt know what they were saying half the time but they told me what was underneath. Why do you keep mixing it up with your mother was offending you and saying horrible things about you . And this man said, i dont want to be like my father. He didnt stand up to her. I want to stand up to her. I said, couldnt you walk away, isnt that strong . He said, i could stand up to her in a different way than my father couldnt do. So by understanding whats going on underneath, you can change whats going on on the surface. I give many examples of what people think theyre doing and whats really happening. My favorite is a couple who came to me who the woman was quite liberal and the man as he got older, identified with his father who was quite conservative as a result, they started watching fox news. His wife refused to let him do it. In the basement . He wasnt allowed to listen to it. He said i know youre listening down there i said, what are you doing . This is why god invented headphones. What are you doing, and what is it going to do to you if he listens to something you dont agree with. He said i lost my social support system. If he doesnt agree with me, im all alone. It was like he was betraying her. He wasnt betraying her. He was identified with his father and his thoughts and he loved her dearly. Along marriage that was a good one. I said to her, you really have to let him listen to this. Its his business. While youre at it, stop sticking articles on the breakfast table. Can you do that . She said, yeah. I can do that. And she did it. What i did with a lot of couples that i was worried about. Could this marriage be saved . And it was one of the most hopeful things is that people think about these things. Think about them. You can really make a difference. You can make a difference in how you act with other person. Guess what . That makes a difference in how they act. When you woke up on november 9, 2016, how did you feel . I think rick and i pretty much thought the same, how are we going to get through this . How would you have felt if Hillary Clinton was elected. I would have rejoiced but at least it wouldnt have been trump. Although i dont like her personally or her ethics. I didnt want more clintons. So i was, i wasnt a passionate hillary supporter but i did vote for her. Psychoanalyze our country. Thats a simple thing to do. [laughter] you have 30 seconds. How did we end up with Hillary Clinton and donald trump as the finalists . How does that happen . Im asking you both. Ive asked rick this many times. The democrats was like she deserved it. You accept your defeat graciously and i will make you secretary of state. I will back you for your next shot. Trump, i dont know point how did he . One thing he said. He didnt have to say anything else the whole election point it was in his acceptance speech. He said, i am for you. I will be your voice. Remember hillarys slogan. I read an article that they went through 71 slogans before picking one. If you go through 71 slogans, you will never find the right one. Thats too many to choose from. The one they came up with is, im with her. This was the perfect response to that. When he said ill be your voice, it was really something. He didnt have to say anything else. He could have said that and took a vacation. That was a brilliant move. Of course i dont think is anyones voice but his own. I will tell you who had a hard time on election night. To who are in my book. Whats the podcast by the way . I love you but i hate your politics. Its on my website also. You can hear us sing together. But these two, i think her family came over in 1630. Old yankee family and he is firstgeneration american from the dominican republic. Dirt poor. He came here. Hes the republican and shes the democrat. She voted for he voted for trump. And they had a terrible election night. She was crying. He was angry at her because she was crying. He really had to work on this. And they saw they love each other passionately, but they couldnt talk about politics. So she said, we are not going to talk about these things. Because i love my husband more than i love my country. And in this case, i completely agree but i know them both and i know they have a tremendous amount in common in terms of decency and goodness and morality. Just total different politics. They made the decision we made it we dont talk about these things because it will be damaging to our relationship. The book is called, i love you but i hate your politics. Psychotherapist doctor jeanne safer. Richard brookhisers new book is called, give me liberty. Thanks for letting us into your home. Heres a look at books being published this week. In the liberation of paris, historian Jean Edward Smith describes how general Dwight Eisenhower and french leader worked together to prepare us for german occupation. Crisis in the red zone details 2013 evil outbreak and efforts to contain it. Casey pipes recounts the postwhite house years of president richard nixon. And the National Reviews Kevin Williamson criticizes what he calls a mob mentality in todays politics in the smallest minority. Also being published this week, Gretchen Mcculloch argues the Digital World is transforming the english language in because, internet. And cardiologist doctor haider walbridge exposed the history, science and future of cardiac disease and state of the heart. Look for these titles and bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors on book tv on c
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.