Transcripts For CSPAN2 Michael Wolff Fire And Fury 20180127

Good evening and welcome to our biggest event so far in 2018. I am Bradley Graham the coowner of politics and prose. On behalf of everybody here at six and i think you so much for coming you know january historically is a rather slow month. Relative to the fever pace of sales. Thanks to Michael Worth dash wolf. They have seemed like a second christmas for many book sellers. Given the surge in demand one frequent question i had been asked is whether or not there is any precedent for this kind of frenzy. Weve had bestsellers before and seen people standing in long lines for them. And normally we are able to anticipate at least roughly how many books to order. But the volume of requests for fire in theory seem to take everyone by surprise. Our event team it was at our new smaller store which kind of accommodated only about a fourth of the crowd here this evening. So lets all give a giant round of applause to the terrific staff here [applause]. They made this spacious venue available and enabled many more people to attend and while were at it lets also clap for henry holt and company which faced with the legal threat pressuring them not to publish instead rushed out distribution. Because of all of the attention that michael and his book have received im going to assume that everyone here already knows whats in fire and fury. About that accuracy of some parts and whether they should be taken literally a number of journalists who had covered this white house have said much rings true and can be taken seriously as further evidence calling into question Donald Trumps fitness to be president. President. Michael himself has a long track rest record in journalism. He worked at the New York Times copy boy. Hes has been columnist for new York Magazine the Hollywood Reporter and other publications he has won several magazine awards and written six previous books. His writing style has made him no stranger to controversy as one profile put it. During his years as a slashing calmness. We appreciate him taking time to appear here this evening. He will be in conversation with Jonathan Cape part and a prize winning writer. They host the podcast. And contributes to msnbc. I had watched him moderate before and he comes very prepared so we should be in for a great discussion ladies and gentlemen please welcome jonathan wolf. [applause]. [applause]. This is really terrific. Thank you all for coming. This is great. Before i get to how i wanted to start this i was curious and i mentioned this to michael this is washington dc a book event for a book that has set this town on fire. I was wondering who is here. At least in terms of registration we are in a democratic city but in terms of power the house and the senate and the white house are republican controlled so michael said i would be curious to find out also. How Many Democrats are here. [applause]. How many republicans are here let me put it this way. How do people involved in the political process are here a lot of shy people. On saturday night live last week the call open was the sendup of morning joe and fred are missing played you. Hinder willie gieses character ask this. Now michael they had been several errors pointed out in this book already do take responsibility for those. You read it. Michael wolf says that michael wolf says what is the problem. The stuff thats not true is true. So now i have to deconstruct saturday night live. It is all true. I have the problem with the berman brothers. And someone else berman who i seem to have transposed. Into the site but about donald trump this book is as true as it gets. Its one of the reasons that this book has this remarkable thing that has happened to this book. That we all thought and even i thought this we know donald trump. Weve captured this. And it turns out i think that we have it. The story of donald trump is emotional void we had been circling around looking into but not really been able to to grasp what this thing is. I think that is the accomplishment in the book. A lot of people were saying recordings of these interviews you should release them. You said no. When i interviewed you on ms nbc couple days later you backtracked and said you know im kind of thinking about it. So now that we are weak out where is your head in terms of the question i have always had sometimes you had tapes sometimes you had notes. Sometimes you read to the bathroom to scribble what someone just told you. Ive never in i have never in my career and ask for tapes before what i do is write sentences. But maybe im wrong. In a multimedia world this is what has to happen. Now i have to get a sound engineer. Maybe a lot of people on tape who i have sworn on my life that i would not reveal. You go through this process in which we make a series of deals and sometimes the deals are i will talk to you but if someone asks me if i have to talk you i will tonight and you have to promise me that you will not contradict that. That is a deal that you make. So i guess i cant. But on the other hand i have steve being in on tape. They are riveting. If you havent read the book he opens his mouth and its a kind of poetry. All poetry is of a sort. You cannot stop listening to it. I hope he keeps going. Early in the book you talk about this dinner party. That is thrown. Everyone is waiting for steve bannon to show up. He is hours late. When he gets there he is just going on and on. In the book is not clear the dinner party was thrown by you. You are asked by Meghan Mccain whether the dinner was off the record and you would initially said the dinner is off the record which you could hear the gasp in the audience of the people who meant what that meant. Explain why let me explain a couple of things. Why its not identified. In writing this book i have to make the very precise decision that there would be no i in the book. I did not want this book to be about my impressions i wanted it to be the impressions of the people around him. I went into this project without a preconception without an assumption about whether donald trump would be successful or would be a failure. I thought, i dont know. And i wanted to find out what donald trump is through the people who work with him on a daily and Office Minute by minute basis. So anyway this dinner did occur at my house. It came about with roger ailes for a long time and a man nevertheless been a good friend and incredibly funny person to spend time with and someone through whom you really get a glimpse. You really get to know something about how power has worked over this generation. I was perhaps among the few people that kept speaking to him. And he was moving come for dinner on the spur of the moment i think probably that day i shot steve bannon and note and said rogers coming for dinner. Do you want to come. I dont know what i expected out of that. But when he responded that he would like to come and then i have to go to my wife and say guess is coming to dinner but it was kind of a splendid evening and it was completely off the record. Then roger died and i thought what does that mean in this thing and i decided it probably i could use it. And i spoke to Rogers Rogers white and it was like okay. The confidentiality died with him. That was a decision i made. Then shortly after that first it was Steve Bennett who said that is history. Okay. And he said yeah use it. And then i spoke to rogers wife. Thats how it got on the record. And so that is one of the scene setting moments so now i understand how it is that you are able to get waived in to the white house to basically become a potted plant in the west wing lobby so most of your meetings at the white house were with steve bannon or at least you were scheduled to meet with steve and then what would happen. I was scheduled to meet and steve was one of them. I basically met with everybody and everybody was under the impression that they were supposed to meet with me. That impression come from the president or because you are were talking to steve bannon they figured i was introduced around by various people by hope hicks who was the president s personal pr person kelly and conway, sean spicer it was not a mystery here now, i think on one level nobody quite knew how this came about and everybody looked a little puzzled by things. There was no friction here. Nobody was saying what are you doing here. Everybody was saying okay. They would see you. They would see you in the west wing lobby. And then they would say c bennett and that will be for a while. I became a familiar presence around the white house and i think also very much a non threatening presence. The press corps was over there. Not far away. But always careful not to say i was a member of the press. And not to act like a mess a member of the press. How do you you want anything. I literally i did not want anything. Im just sitting in the west wing lobby hoping to talk to all of you. I just wanted someone to talk to me. And this is actually an important thing you would get a 10 00 appointment. You would go in and then you would sit there. Sometimes for hours sometimes hours and hours and it was kind of humiliating actually like they regarded me as in a pity mill creature. Im not important enough for anyone to keep their appointment with me. Everybody else is there. There are their people come out. Im still just waiting there in the hours and their passing. I did feel humiliated then it became this kind of thing it began to work. Come on. You come back this is an important thing. I didnt ask questions. So all reporters what we do. We ask questions. I dont ask questions. I go in and i sit there and people to start to talk. The key is what you said in the initial part of the answer were you said you mentioned hope hicks who is the president s personal pr person. Now, when you read fire and fury you find out that everybody in this book has his or her own a pr person. It ends up building up his own pr team. The president who has a press secretary and a communication shop of 40 people but he is conducting his own freelance operation. Maybe one of the reasons why people took pity on you as you sat there and say humiliated in the west wing lobby they knew you were talking to bannon is it that they realized zero my gosh hes talking to bannon. That happened a little later on when they realized that he was monopolizing me. In the beginning everybody was talking and confused about confused about why they were talking. It has come on high that nobody actually knew from where it came it seemed but there was a general feeling that you were supposed to talk to me. Did you feel like at their a therapist eventually did. What i saw there is a plot line in a transformation that took place and people in the beginning you got the donald trump line and then that began to degrade. They begin to give you the trump line and it became very clear that they wanted someone else to know that while they have to give this line they did not believe it. And then after moving even further on in than a just developed part entirely. And then they would say this is really a mess here. I think that happened but then the other thing happened and it was the bannon thing. Steve was talking to me so than other people have to talk to me to counter what steve was saying and also because nobody in the white house there were the camps in the white house and they did not speak to each other. So therefore i became in one respect you have these camps and sought an advantage speaking to me because then they can ask me what the other people were saying. I became kind of a messenger that was a welcome to washington. There are many instances in the book where the president picks up the phone and calls around to his new york buddies were just people and just events for a very long time and at the end of one section you write about all of the things that the president said and then at the end you said the call lasted 26 minutes. How many people does the president call like that back in new york. There are probably eight people in new york he calls on a steady basis there maybe more. The people i know about. I think he has that Kitchen Cabinet of basically billionaires were a few people media people who he knows and then the interesting thing is that he calls them and they call each other. And then whoever they call their friends and so on. It all leaks out. So the president throws a fit about the leaks. In many instances they become directly from him. So you were at the event i did with dan rather back in november you know i like to write my books and take notes so if you have your book with you please turn to page 92 and there it says on february 6 he made one of his self pity and phone calls. Confidentiality to a passing new york media acquaintance. It have no discernible point other than to express has bent his bent out of shape community. So course i immediately thought are you the passing acquaintance and i believe i told you in the green room i was back not gonna tell you that. I have to ask. That question gets to something that i wonder if people particularly here in washington fully appreciate and that is the fact that you are a fixture in new york media. You are a fixture in new york society at large that the world that the president and i bought the trump and Jared Kushner the world that they live in and socialize it socializing is the same world that you were in. Because of that im just thinking of it from a journalistic point of view. There are nuggets of information that only a quintessential new yorker only one who swims in that pool would know the chapter on jar banca what you write about who he is and where he comes from and why he bought the new york observer. And how that Jared Kushner and President Trump are very similar thats not something you get from just starting to work on this book. Thats years if not decades of accrued knowledge and intelligence from being a reporter in new york. This is a world i have lived in and reported on essentially in the media world donald trump is a media figure he is not a political figure. He comes out of this world. In fact the president has been saying that he doesnt know me in fact i had known him more than 20 years because i was the media columnist for a new York Magazine so i was one of the people at the magazine that he would regularly call out to complain about what was written about him or more frequently when he have not been written about. I would see him often around town. He like to talk to people he recognized. We have a perfectly fine long acquaintance i interviewed him in june of 2016. We met at the kimmel show in los angeles i was brought in to interview him i thought it was hope hicks you 45 minutes in his face went back his eyes went open. When you come back to the house after i do the show. And we will sit around. As he eats the pines of ice cream. Lets talk more about President Trump and media because i do think we have a president who is a media creation. You writes about the media and you write on page 215 this is a President Trumps even a citizen trumps view if you couldnt get press it directly for yourself you became a leaker. There was no happenstance news. All news was manipulated and designed all news was to some extent fake he understood that very well because he himself have faked at sony times in his career. This is why he have so naturally constituted the fake label i have made up stuff for ever and they always printed here bragged. We have seen it. For 3603 days. His entire media career it was i will say anything that gets me ink. Thats what we used to call ink. It would on the pretense. It would basically fall. How do you want me to play this. In some sense he is not an old fashion publicist. Its not him the immorality of this is a will ingrained accepted immorality and how you get press for yourself. That is that tabloid this and that. You are sitting there in the west west wing lobby for hours on end. And if youve ever sat in the west wing lobby you know that people are walking through back and forth. They are coming in. One of the ways it is an easy pastor. Sitting in the lobby you see and hear an awful lot of things where you are waiting. Did you hear them talk about policy distant general policy and then i will hone in. And where they speaking about policy in any kind of substituting way. I think the most riveting thing is i heard tony blair and Jared Kushner talking about the problems of the middle east and i have heard Jared Kushner say dammit we can solve this problem. And what was the former prime ministers reaction. I think he was acting like a man who was trying to cultivate a new client. Did you hear while sitting there in the west wing lobby waiting for someone to come scoop you up and bring you upstairs did you ever hear people talk about the American People or the president s supporters in ways my impression is mostly they did talk about things without west wing. It was almost wholly focused the being in people were talking about the the lasting impression is there anyone in the white house who have actually been qualified to perform the job for which they were hired. Or the job that they are doing now. Hr mcmaster i think certainly an experienced person may come a lady, there are a lot of professional people there one of the things i think is really worth of focusing on which hasnt got enough attention with all of the initial team leaving. With the former junior passion with the national television. They just had no experience no reason under the sun to be doing the job. The essential focus is steve bannon throughout this book. The smartest person in the west wing. They wanted to push the president to do he is smarter than chewbacca. Smarter than everybody. And bands gone. Are you surprised given the way he comes off here. He really thinks hes smarter than he really is. Are you surprised that he is no longer there and not just no longer there like excommunicated. And again was he qualified to be in the job steve is 64 years old and has never worked in politics or government before and no conventional terms was he qualified for this job. Nevertheless he head at least read a few books. I have lost track of time. Im so afraid that im in a to take time away from you. Im an essay this now before i ask the last question. If you have a question please line up to ask your question one make sure its a question there will be no speeches. If there are speeches i dont mean to be rude but i will be forced to cut you off and i will be rude about it. I want to get in as many people as possible. Michael, in one interview you left some quotes and stories out. Why. I just couldnt nail it. Things that i believed to be true but couldnt nail it. Was there anything so shocking that you nailed it but because it was so shocking you kept it out. There are several things that i thought were shocking. I believed i had nailed it. They were shocking enough that you needed a triple quadruple nailing. That you nailed. Youre giving some contours i will tell you if you read the book and if you read between the lines it is there. So just a little test is it at the beginning the middle of the end. So question im in a let you off the hook for now okay who was it, to see and read. Nobody has yet spotted it thank you for sharing. My question is on the average how many days a week were you able to get into the white house and procedurally how did you get in. You make an appointment whoever you make an appointment with. The you into the system. And then youre basically there for the day. I did not go in with the free run once you did as soon as you got in. I would check into the hay adams and it was right across from the white house. They would come over for a drink or dinner or whatever. We all wish we were that fly. Thank you for coming out. So prior to the campaign. Its pretty clear that the trump family have a pretty extensive relationship. At the start of the book you mentioned that a lot of the ambitions of the trump team fell apart given the relationship prior to the campaign. Did they form the campaign in a way to work through this. My question again but shorter. Donald and hillary had a relationship prior to the campaign. He clearly have another motive aside from being the president. Do you think hillary was knowledgeable of those motives when she was shaping her campaign. In that respect i think the hillary people probably did assume that the trump people have other ambitions besides being president as he rates in writes in the book all of the trump ambitions for the television network. Thank you for your question. That we wish that you had cut out. Years from now you look back at you think at this moment in time and feeling good. You probably want to put that peace and. You need to take lessons on the hittable creature thing. In the west wing lobby. Are you on your phone or working on things or you just making puppy eyes at anybody who walks by you. Are you really going for trying to capture someones attention why you are sitting in the west wing lobby. Or are you doing your own thing. Im trying not to be noticed. In your trying not to be noticed because its embarrassing. The clock goes. And it goes beyond your appointment. And then they try to say can i get you anything. Can you do this. And then there was the issue of going to the bathroom you can wander almost everywhere i have sat in that west wing lobby. Where is the bathroom that you can get to on x corded. When you walk in the door on the left you go through the door again it was the thing. And as you said before you dont have a press pass you have the blue appointment be in her which i guess it gives you some other kind of access to the bathroom. I had been wondering as someone who is in the media yourself who is been your favorite press secretary. I have only really dealt with in this ive only dealt with sean i didnt have any dealings with sarah. Do you mean press secretaries in general. They want to ask bannon about these things that you quote him for in the book. You have met them and their relationship is not very good at the moment. We are not completely sure. What is your impression will be in an excel trump when he talks with Robert Mueller lincoln from what he said. What is your impression what will happen from now on. I would anticipate that steve will tell the truth. But i guess, there is a truth and then there is the truth. Does he really go after the president does steve a bit bannon make the decision to try to break trump i think if i were steve right now that is what i would be thinking. Thats one of my options here. I literally saw steve being in go from the guy who elected trump to the guy who thought trump was idiot of the century. In the guy who came to realize that whatever goals and agendas steve had the nationalist populist whatever that is and i dont mean to be dismissive. That is a very specific idea driven program. He thought trump would be able to lead this new movement and it turns out he is really not capable of that and not interested in that. Is just can go in whatever direction he goes in at any given moment. I think he found that incredibly infuriating and i think he was using the things he said in my book as part of his intention to break with trump. I dont know whats can happen but i think its a very real possibility that steve could sink the president. Has anybody on the team contacted you in connection with the investigation at all given some of the things that you head in here such as bannon and the meeting was treasonous. Im really behind on my emails. He has supported him. Eagerly. And have you considered if you do if you can release them publicly at the same time. I have not considered what i would do if my tapes were subpoenaed. They bring up the other problem. And the whole idea of the tapes and releasing tapes because i think thats just part of what we do as journalists i cant think of anything more fundamental about how you protect your work. Just another aspect of the tape question which seems to me ultimately unclear at and i hear the question either. Do you believe that the p tape is real. I would have no way of knowing. My gut is i dont believe it. Did anyone, it is just imagining it. In any of your conversations would any of the people in the west wing did anyone ever ever bring it up. The elliptical ways. And there were a lot of can you imagine this. No, its not possible. I had had the experience of actually having discussed this with the president of the United States. We are putting some extra time on the clock here. What does the president of the United States say. He brought it up on his own. I did not want to talk about golden showers with the president. And did i think it was true. You know me. Can you see me doing that. I just didnt know what to say. I think it just comes out. And i dont think it really matters who hes talking to. And he certainly doesnt listen to who hes talking to so what does it [laughter] disconcerting experience to speak to donald trump. To say the very least. [laughter] so this particular pp type conversation when did that happen . Ly not did that happen . Not to say. Did that happen when did it happen as republican nominee did it happen as president elect. Did it happen as president of the United States . Although no you said it is disconcerting to have a conversation like the president of the United States. So thats within the last 363 days. [laughter] its your turn. Hi, how do we get donald trump out of office . [applause] patience. I think hell get himself out of office. This is just an unfolding process from the beginning of this trump thing. You know weve all seen this as a train wreck and it just that the wall seems to recede but wall is still there. You think hell get himself out of office. Does that mean you dont buy the the prayers for impeachment you dont buy the really big prayers for invocation of the 25th amendment. You think that he will figure if out a trumpian way to lead the presidency a winner . Dges i think the bannon formula is very reasonable. A 33. 3 chance of being impeached and chance that he will resign in the shadow of the 25th amendment, a 33 and third chance to limp to the end but a zeros percent chance that he will have another term or even run again. [applause] question here. Sort of in the same vain, i was going to ask you when and a how will this end, and you can, we can talk about impeachment but theres also others who could be involved in i know you dont have a crystal ball. But where do you see i think ill fall become on that. I think lirmtly the bannon formula is is the most reasonable way to look at this. We dont know how this is going to end but we can have some confidence. Really something near absolute confidence that it will end. Question here. Hi michael thanks for the discussion. Two questions, first, can you kind of go into more of the beginning of your and bannon relationship how did that come about and second have you received an influx in hate mail or have you talked to the president . Have you received an influx the hate mail or spoken to the president since the release of this book . Have you had had any positive any tin flux of hate mail . Influx of hate mail have you gotten influx and spoken to the president since the book . I have not. And i really havent gotten hate mail. But again, as i say i really am behind on email. [laughter] and in the first question was can you talk about elaborate more on the beginning of your and bannon relationship how that came you mentioned dinner but im sure your relationship with bannon, how does that come about . Okay. In february or march in 2016 i was walking through the and to orlando theres a guy i see this guy who clearly seems to recognize me. He says, you know, oh, youve been doing work job you know you take a fan in any way you get them. [laughter] and i say thank you, thank you. This and that, and hes acting like i like i know like we know each other. And also that my age this happens also and you think okay. And just but then that was it. Thats all if i knew. Then about a month later, i saw an article about breitbart and there was a picture of this guy web and i thought oh, my god the guy who hugged me in orlando is the breitbart guy. And i i still wheres wrestle with with this how have i known steve bannon, i dont know but i didnt think anything beyond that. Except then it comes around it comes august and suddenly steve bannon is appointed the head of the trump campaign. And a i thought okay if he thinks im his friend ill be his friend [laughter] and i write him an email and he says come up any time it and i prochghtly to. I mean this is not far from i my house i go over, i go over there. I go up to trump tower, an we sit down and its its seems like were friends. [laughter] i miss the whole chapter here. But and we have thats the thing so hes there maybe this is his second week hes there and he says were going to win, and you know he outlines were going to win our past is through florida, ohio, tban, and pennsylvania. And this seems so much just like i dont even write this. And then i kind of, you know, so i dont maybe i exchange another couple of emails with him. But then they win. [laughter] and a i get to respond again i say can i come up and he says yes. So i think a week or so after the election, maybe two weeks, i i go up there. We sit down, we have a conversation. And and i say can i write this . And he says, no. And then i said, you know somebody is going to write this. You know, you are about to be the one of the most payments people in the country. And he said, okay. Right [laughter] so i did, and that was actually the first, the first i think that was the first on the record interview that steve gaye and it may actually have been the the only one he gave until just before he we left the white house, and so we i just continued this relationship. Our deep friendship with i dont know where it came from. But [laughter] but before we moved to this next question here. Do you do you feel badly that the book is what helped push bannon out . I feel, i feel that steve knew what he was doing. I feel badly that he seemed clearly at a someplace where he did not expect to be. I feel sure, however, that he has a plan to get to where he wants to be. The three people in that line are are the final three people short questions. Yes. But youve known him as you say over two decades but close to two decades. So hes changed from being a democrat to independent to a very right wing republican. Does the man have any true ide oology or is it just spur of the moment and what gets him bingo. [laughter] thats what fire and fury is all about. One quick question . No sorry maam we are so overtime and i want to give the beard man behind you a chance to a chance to ask his question. Thank you. I read theres serious discussion of developing your book into a television series. And im curious to know about that as much as you can share but specifically im curious about what kind of tone you envision for that. Whether it be a dark comedy or dark drama. [laughter] yeah, i think it can be read either way. You know, i mean ive had enough involvement to with hollywood to know that whatever the writer of the totally irrelevant. If i if i could i would say you play it totally straight. I mean you dont have to do anything here. [laughter] josh it carries itself. [laughter] i cant wait to get it. Its you again. Can i have another question . Really a short a short question. If donald trump gets impeached, then it would be mike pence will he be better for you than donald trump . I cant answer that. I have no idea. I think anything would be better. But [laughter] i mean thats into the category of be careful what you wish for. So michael last last question President Trump tweeted not recently. But when the book kill out michael wolf is a total loser. Who made up stories in order to sell this really boring and untruthful book. Hes used floppy steve bannon who cried when he got fired and begged for his job. Now sloppy steve has been dumped like a dog by almost everyone. Too bad. What the president were here right now or called you, what would you say to him . Just think about donald trump and you never get to say anything to him. But i predict that actually what he will say sooner rather than later is that he is responsible for this book. Its successful because of him. And [laughter] and hes the real writer of this book. And on that note, michael wolf. [applause] thank you both so much. If you could all please remain seated while our guests exit that would be much appreciated. Thank you so much. [silence] heres a look at some of the authored features on booktv afterwards our program womens march cochair linda reflected on the 2017 march, and whats ahead for the movement. Former Clinton Administration official peter argued that uf courts are using fines and fees to exploit the economically imof rished and federal judge john newman reflected on his career first as a prosecutor and now as a federal appellate judge. In the coming weeks on afterwards, former qhows speech writer pane atlantic columnist david will argue that Trump Administration is damaging democracy. Black livings matter cofounder patrice colors will discuss bitter and growthofthe movement and this weekend on afterwards Republican National Committee Spokesperson caylee report on the grassroots on populous movement in the u. S. It is mentioned in the amazon profile for my book because i think outside of my own book that is really the only piece of work that i can point to that describe a moment in the election and people who made that moment happen of course hillbilly profiled that group of voters and west virginia. And he didnt profile them as voters but as people those factory workers those Blue Collar Workers who really swing voters in the election. Well i wanted to take a broad or look. I cant profile whole country, of course. But i sat down at my desk and i wrote down issues that i think determine this election. And among them were terrorism and va wait list and one i think was a part of it and i tried to pair individuals to those issues and then i traveled the country to lakeway texas to mom who lost her son and husband in the nice terrorist attack and to South Carolina to profile a widow who lost her husband on a va wait list and tried to get to the heart of what drove their Decision Making and what made them the people they were. Afterwars airs on booktv every saturday at 10 p. M. Eastern, and suppedz at 9 p. M. Eastern and pacific. Many who went through combat together refer as brothers and today were privileged to have to hearro