Provider. Coming up on the tvs after words former radio host and msnbc contributor Charles Sykes with the conservative movement on america. Hes interviewed by tammy ruth, Fox News Contributor and host of the tammy bruce show. Charlie sykes, how are you . It is a pleasure and especially with the last year. If this kind of opportunity that perhaps you and i would never have and im looking forward to it. This is the book and im sure everyone watching his already seen it but what was interesting and asked to do this i was not on the opposite side of you when it comes to President Trump but the person is in your book this is not a book about donald trump. How the right lost its mind is the title and immediately youre taking a stand with the title but what i like to do is make sure everyone is watching what your background is and what youve done. Youve written a number of other books. The conservative who has supported trump and his super trump would find probably a great deal in common that they have with you on the issue of the academy of freedom of expression et cetera and yet they see you and i tweeted that we were doing this and sometimes give back why are you doing that is and never trump but what i like to the first since everyone watching no doubt would have a different idea of what conservatism is and where we get into the meat of this and will talk about your own background but explain to everyone who is listening politically and otherwise what conservatism means to you. Guest that is an interesting question because it seems to be redefined by regular basis but for me it means conservatism limited government, fiscal response ability, individual freedom, respect the constitution and those things. Its an inclusive aspirational vision that i think was very well captured by Ronald Reagan talked about america being shining city on a hill. I think i come from a brand of conservatism that is reform oriented and that wants to deal with problems as they exist in the real world but very much the kind of conservatives that was defeated in the republican primaries in 2016. Host that is a clear part of your book obviously but with a title like this how the right lost his mind and i think conservatism is a longer word and as it sits on the red trump cap is it really a decision kind of point that is happening . A judiciary point that has been achieved, of people abandoning something or is it possible that were in the midst of the transition if you will it comes to people you want and what theyve seen whether they think it is veiled or what they dont like what has happened up to this point in the gop has not delivered is a possible that, in fact, people havent lost their minds but were in a position of transition at this stage politically . Guest yes, but there was also a clear break. What happened in 2016 was a dramatic moment the conservative movement that i think was a rejection of much of the conservative tradition and i think it was a rejection of the regular legacy. I think that many of the things that happened during this campaign and the title of the book is how the right lost his mind which was the rejection of a lot of the intellectual tradition of maintaining conservatism by donald trump and his supporters in the Republican Party but is also just quite briefly the kind of crazy that invaded the party and the explosion of hoaxes in the extreme positions and the willingness to tolerate bizarre behavior. A lot of that happens and there was a double meaning. In terms of is it done and is it over, no, this is an ongoing debate and will have this debate for a generation. Host myself being here and those watching sporting the president and it wasnt a relationship to develop. I first supported scott walker and was not supportive of the president at first and i grew into the nature of supporting him and i have not been disappointed. However, ive warned my listeners is radio talk show that we will be disappointed at some point like we are with all politicians. A lot of people would argue that this really is about the establishment leadership and we do love reagan and were children of reagan, if you will, that all of what you stated in the beginning we also believe in and yet we have watched government get bigger, 20 trilliondollar debt, obamacare is the current trail that we have experienced is spending in general the largess and either deliberately by george w. Bush that perhaps is because we are children of reagan perhaps because we havent seen that continue some would argue that what happened last year is in fact a reassertion of an assistance that we go back to the conservative ideals speak. Guest donald trump was not the guy who betrayed the assumption. Five minutes ago he was a democrat in to putting money to Hillary Clinton and chuck schumer. When he was first running there was the question of did he support singlepayer health care and hes been a supporter of abortion rights but down from is not and never has been an actual conservative. In part because hes a man utterly lacking in visible who has been less than five minutes thinking about issues. Even many of the supporters understand that with donald trump maybe hes the vehicle to break the status quo but he doesnt represent an idea he doesnt represent a well thought out philosophy of government and we have to play this out. We dont know what his relationship with nancy and chuck is going to be a month from now or two months from now or a year from now after the Midterm Election and for people who are saying we are upset the establishment because we have not given us conservative values there were seven or 16 candidates on that stage in almost every one of them had stronger conservative credentials, actually understood issues and actually understood policy and had principal and yet the republicans rejected all of those other conservatives for donald trump and that wasnt about conservative. Host it could be about and this is for the gop what part of your book is about the conservatives and as we establish our position here and People Like Us go as we move forward is that the rejection of individuals who were seen as the establishment same as when eric cantor was effectively fired we saw that the tribe to this of a wholesale rejection and is many were running at one point we also supported did represent the standard that this was a wholesale rejection of what was seen as a failure of the standard and a message to be sent and this is where the divide is that its less a rejection of conservatism and for a rejection of those who havent moved it properly or who havent say their conservative but where we have seen the next in line, and john mccain, mitt romney, we see the world unfold and the ability also to deal with the world in his new base with electronics, social media, the internet and is that part of the issue and not just media but how you interact on all formats which did very well at in talking to people directly and be able to meet with them which i dont think any of the other standing on the debate stage were able to do with the exception of perhaps carly [inaudible] who was not even able to translate it to the ground. Is it about being communicators in a new age where is president reagan didnt even have to deal with talk radio or anything on social media. Host on transportation during the reagan era you didnt have the conservative media and the echo chamber that you and i are both part of and i wonder whether his success mightve had something to do with that. I think its one of those interesting puzzles and the interesting role they played there. Donald trump represented something he certainly represented the big middle finger for boaters for the establishment but if you really, really wanted to deal with some of these issues you wouldve gone with a ted cruz and they didnt. In terms of medication hes a master of twitter but he was crude, he was rude as a serial liar and he has been skinned and his erratic and broad. Host not that you have an opinion. Guest this is relatively wellknown and conservatives who not that long ago used to argue that character manager and the president was a role model has somehow found a way to rationalize the behavior of someone who insults women, marks the disabled, mocks pows, paid a multimillion dollar fine for defrauding students who just wanted to get an education and even now are sitting in the oval office uses his power to insult the call for people to be fired for engaging in free speech and yet we are supposed to think that this is return to conservative values. Host thats an interesting note because i dont know if that election was that argument. Guest no, it was the argument i was making. Host no one is saying that this is return to conservative values and in the sense that it was in fact an effort to put out the Dumpster Fire that was happening economically and was and still is happening around the world and as i mentioned in cbs had a panel with three women in the about our age asking them about his comments after charleston and if it bothered them. All of them said no, that they were voting for a husband or a boyfriend and that it was about getting things in order and that is the thing that is resonated with the role of the president and the nature of this person as an individual and what was required at the moment and clearly peoples determine that it wasnt going to be Chris Christie or marco rubio or jeb bush. It was a statement at least worthy of taking seriously and the location in your book is that the voter or at least the trend in the Republican Party which i am not republican is the phobia and racism and misogyny. For the average voter who wants or wanted their jobs back wanted healthcare dealt with once money back in their pocket and to see the future is that fair to all of those individuals who acknowledge that on occasion we will be offended but that theres something larger at stake. Is it fair in this kind of viewpoint to the beaters and voters . Guest to what . Host is this a movement or what he represents is xena phobia and misogyny and racism and that by implication that is guest there is no question. His attitude toward women we dont read hashem. We had it in one camera and there were time where someone bragged on camera about sexually assaulting a woman that would be disqualifying and certainly conservative wouldve thought that but the blaming and his attitude on other things and does that mean the voters are racist or sexist but no and that is where a lot of people on the left have made a terrible mistake. They have played the race card so often that it has lost meaning and they spent 30 years crying wolf. They said john mccain was racist and they said mitt romney was racist and Ronald Reagan is racist in every conservative was racist when the real thing came along in the form of the old right which was clearly empowered and encouraged by the Trump Campaign in which he continues to give winks and nods and when the real thing came along the left is out of ammunition. I think both on the right have become numb to it. Here is the moral test. Are they part of our tent . Is the William Buckley junior in the 60s drew a line and said they needed to be explicated from the conservative movement because they were too extreme and they were crackpots and he successfully did. Not because he was anticommunist but if you made place for these conspiracy theorists that Dwight Eisenhower was a communist agent you would discredit your movement but we dont have that anymore. The president ial lies by pushing the Barack Obama Birther conspiracy. The majority of the Republican Voters believe that the reality is there are the extremes that we could roll her eyes the center would hold, but it was a moral failure. I dont think theyre racist i think if we ask whether or not we are way too tolerant of it because we figured they are on our side mmo called them out on it. After charlottesville that was the signal. You bring it up and you look to our president to provide moral leadership. That was a moment where donald trump failed. It should not have come as a surprise. In the aftermath weve had larger discussions about intifada. We know how it can mislead media decides the reach of the outright visit a mistake or something to have the conservative movement is all conservative versus what cnn or msnbc or the New York Times or any other element that has an agenda to elevate and promote what i tell my audience not to let the media determine your reality look to a broader base of information. For those was the media thats our bubble. Is it possible were mistaking the power and influence of that group we recognize has issues has major issues. I would not describe neonazi the ku klux klan is having issues. This would be a difference between conservative and the outright. Paper. Com, some people there, what milo represents versus a guy in the clan suit. I dont know people listening and we would have disagreements about do we have a definition about what the altright is versus white supremacist . Or is this what were going to do but we dont even have agreements on that. A lot of people look to breitbart for information. People there will have a varie variety. But it depends what were going to promote. Steve bannon went on to become top aid to the president of the United States break he turned it into a platform for the all right. The outright is a euphemism for white nationalism. You could be correct that people will disagree with that. This is where the debate or discussion is. Think people listening will have a differing opinion or be conflicted. We know what the nazis and the clan are. Most people would say thats not breitbart that it also might not be what they believe. This is not that hard to deny its the disc extremists here. As part of this with donald trump its easy and automatic and now difficult. It took us 20 or 30 years. I struggled against the stereotype of the left we do not make excuses along comes the outright and many good people there who look at these guys marching with tiki torches and say theyre good people there and i agreed with a lot of a theres a point at which they need to pass a moral test. There are multiple forms of the media. There was a time when people sitting at cbs and then they came along alternative media and it was a wonderful thing. Suddenly we could talk about issues we didnt look down on people but something has happened where the competing voice did become for Many Americans this for silos. We had our own narrative in fact. Where intellectual ghettos. And as a result our political debate has been dumbed down. And you do have fake news propaganda. The breitbart of the world that you distort reality in a way thats Mainstream Media but also we are at a point now whether supposed truth era. We have a tolerance thats dangerous that something we have to be a reality based movement. If artifacts are better we dont need to stay within the alternative reality silo. Identifies a conservative and a feminist. When it comes with that media can do, talking about good people at charlottesville, we know people from the city and be against the nazis and clan as well as they didnt want that to be torn down or were not a white supremacist and it was a mix of people there. This is a problem we hear what we want to hear what shes to promote what we want to be the case. You mention lots of good people there are good people in general in nature that youre not just associated with intifada if you are protesting and you didnt need to be associated with the clatter nazis protesting for the statue to stay. This is where we have our time that one statement can be expanded based on her opinion of the expectation and that becomes the truth of the judgment. The seven like myself little judges mean your computer or racist. How to bridge that gap with two people who generally agree on most issues who are seen things because of the passion of the debate. We need to have these conversations, but i spent time talking about the outright divorce they play and what they believe and how they represent american conservative value. I believe that we should be the shining city on the hill. They reject that idea explicitly. They dont believe america is an idea. They believe its a geographic location. Theres a real dark side there. The reality is throughout the campaign, donald trump had more than one opportunity to repudiate and recheck them. He dodged and delay again and again. Its a pattern, this is a problem, its a cancer at the heart of the conservative movement for not willing to say the left is not right that these moral key moments where liberalism had to expel the communist in the 40s we have to deal with the altright. Unfortunately had donald trump and defeated there wouldve been a reckoning among conservatives. Now, some of these folks they do feel empowered and emboldened by this current political environment. Conservatives who recognize the need to be outspoken this is our test in our time. Even with the changes the president has made, mike pence in his choice for Vice President do you see other individuals out and people coming in as chief of staff versus his initial choices and decisions what you think is happening, are you heartened by some of his changes been made . Do you think is on the right path do you think it settling down. Those are almost two separate issues. A number of appointments have to be encouraging thats been the appointment of a Supreme Court justice. Although some of those grownups may be gone that donald trump has presided over he was unqualified and unfit to be president and prove that almost from the moment he walked in the door and created the chaos around him. This is a shaped by this its a 70yearold man so well see give it a few minutes, general kelly has not been able to control the twitter feed. Keep in mind if we acknowledge that hes a matter of no fixed principles whatsoever whose ignorance may manifest on a regular basis. Its hard to see a dramatic turning point. Is he going to be a conservative leader . If he makes an alliance with chuck and nancy will you argue its a great conservative moment i think many people never viewed him as a conservative in that passion. That this is about a reformati reformation, about getting someone in her to understand business i can make a decision. This is part of the other problem when you look at the Approval Rating today is the highest in duration, congress is between a 10 . Americans still see a destructive dynamic yet americans are not saying that hes the problem, theyre saying the same thing for decades about if things get done in congress, what things move forward is it really about handling the budget properly and americans arent seeing that. No american president has a lower Approval Rating. I think we have 60 or more of americans that dont think he is levelheaded or fifth office. Were talking about the same america is under 50 . Were giving congress eight and 10 . It is that america looking at the spectrum viewing him more positively at least but it could be higher. In the political element of this americans are watching and assessing. For most people we wanted to be successful because we want the country to be. Weve seen markets go up to 4 trillion more the marketplace and people are anticipating an issue with the tax cut. This is all about governing. Bring in a previous and mike pence to get things done with congress. Its also about governing. The test for both congress and the president. The obama care dynamic is key. A microcosm of what people are rejecting. Six years of campaigning on repeal and replace. Then when it came down to it they went do it. Heidi explained that in my people rejected the system . Its an indication they said were going get rid of obama care the conservatives making promises they could not fulfill. Making promises unrealistic i do not realize convincing them they were betrayed and stabbed in the back. I we needed to rise up. We created a dynamic of overpromising, under delivery. Now the republicans they say what he going to do with obama care . They didnt have good answers. A president who couldnt be bothered to learn the details or to sell the policy. So you might remember when they rushed obama care through compared to what the republicans wanted to do without a hearing her debate the president and all that town hall meeting, and yet somehow were surprised have failed. Look, i understand think the worst thing thats happened to conservatives is this desire to enable the dysfunction. To rationalize the fact that you have a president who will not lead. And to find a scapegoat. For many Trump Supporters trump cannot fail he can only be stabbed in the back. Theres a search for someone to shift the blame to. There anything he could do that was soften your rhetoric called him many things and youve condemned him effectively. Is there anything he can do then again, having met the president . I have spoken to them. So your conclusion is made on what you youve seen but is there anything he could do in his efforts to lead and the accomplishments hes had, is there anything you can praise whether the response to hurricane, the stock market, at least his vision and goals of having other people help and implement. I describe my book as a conservative. Doesnt mean im against everything, in fact when he does something you agree with you applaud some of the other executive orders have been pushing the country in the right direction and pushing to do more of the right thing. But also im not in the cold personality. I dont feel that his personal success needs to be defended on every case. I will not rationalize when hes behaving in a clownish way. When hes reckless and dangerous he needs to be called that. When hes betraying conservative values people need to say that. Thats the point of independence. Help conservatives understand. This would be the ultimate victory for you win the battle but at such a cost you lose the war. Unless we stand up were gonna be stuck by all this. I we get a pretend certain things are not happening . Is it worth working that at least for people hearing this program getting a certain impression that all is lost when weve described his successes, its fascinating that certain judgment is there, the praise hes received in houston and florida, his been in puerto rico i think again theres politics everywhere. We know the difference between mayors who are democrats working to make sure what some people say is a narrative which is to denigrate him enough where nothing will get done. Donald trump is not a victim here. This is what fascinates me his supporters believe that hes a leader and a strong, actually hes thinskinned and whiny and place a victim card. He cannot take the punch. When you say we want him to succeed and you cant do that by is that conversation, how does that help us encourage someone to be a leader and engage . A lot of people think it doesnt is not forward thinking when it comes to the president in the governing of the country. My focus, donald trump will be who he will be. Hes living his life. Is a billionaire, president mary to supermodel. What is he doing to us what is he doing to conservatives in the Republican Party to the culture . What is he doing to the level of our discourse. After he leaves office whatever they are, some positive and some negative. I think the damage she is doing to cause as i believe in the care about is going to be longlasting. I also think the damage to the country will be longlasting. The dishonesty and crudeness. You have described him in these terms as well thats an interesting point. Den at one point you said they dont sacrifice her dignity and principles . This is important to recognize and go through a very passionate framework seeing what we are going to respond to as a feminist, as a gay woman and believing there could be certain alternatives, we remember reagan but remain engaged and see what the alternatives are whats being misrepresented and whats not. And then coming to a conclusion that in fact is not necessarily the man were gonna marry. But the nation was at a point to remain so where were looking for leadership someone who will change the trajectory. Those are things were voting, again, what we think the nature what our job has to for talking about the country and damage and with your concern about the president and we talk about what congress has what you write about the people you admire, paul ryan in the history theres a section thats helpful about the nature of the conservative intellectual world has been, what it is now and what matters where this foundation is. What you say when bill kristol is also tweeting his anger on a regular basis. Paul ryan and Mitch Mcconnell you you have the basis separate from trump damage, change and unable to present something, unable to defeat him, doesnt that speak about the party or the lack of leadership . One of the questions i asked this does he represent continuity in the Republican Party. Was a hostile takeover of the party. The dysfunction in the Republican Party was a preexisting condition. Donald trump is in effect youre seeing all these divisions playing out on a national stage. Look where were at. Republicans controlled the presidency, house and senate. And yet what is getting done . Thats a moment we say Republican Party has gotten good understanding what it was against wanting to beat Hillary Clinton and make the liberals cry, we hate the news media, what about policy answers and can we unite around those. That turns to be a big question if we can get there without a single major accomplishment. Theres a view that is deliberate, that congressional leadership is been critical are not interested in helping him succeed, do you agree or not . Almost all of the problem that donald trump is experiencing have been selfinflicted. I know he likes to play the victim card at the comments, the decision to fire the fbi director, these have been done to himself. To the extent that donald trump is like succeeding, the buck stops there. Can you imagine that on Donald Trumps desk. Its who can i blame her tweet storm. But look, a very critical of paul ryan for i consider friend because i think hes made with donald trump. Hes willing to overlook a lot of things the president has done and said. The house did pass and obama care repealed and will likely pass the tax reform ultimately and what point does the buck stop with donald trump. I know the people who feel the need to defend him are they enabling him, get out from behind the twitter account and talk to the American People about taxes and then release your tax return until the other swamp creatures to stop smoking on these rights. Where was the leadership on health care . Where was it on taxes . Many people see when the house to something the senate is [inaudible] another planet, they know whats happening, their leadership together, a lot of people have gone past the idea theres this genuine fight or recognition the republicans will say we did pass this the senate cant figure out what to do. Seems to be convenient where nothing does get done. We cant do anything about obama care taxes until we get the house or the senate. Now we cant tell we get the white house. Someone articulated during the campaign exactly what the focus is going to be. Obama care, taxes, jobs, the economy. But theres this convenient stop in the senate we talk about selfinflicted wounds or not, other choices on the agenda and legislatively the buck stops at congress. Maybe it turned out retrospect that making a reality tv star from someone is no political experience and known to have problems with the truth and no ability to lead, maybe that wasnt a good idea. The people handling legislation getting it through have been in there for decades. To suggest that with all of the experience the republicans have mcconnell and speaker ryan and john mccain, decades of knowing what the processes. To blame it on the president exclusively, its not making so much sense. Where can mcconnell go and what should he be doing . Is the senate obstructing . Is it time for new leadership . Is it time for the gop to have leadership thats interested in legislation and moving things forward. Yes, they tell you about the president. Im talking about congressional leadership. 1981 massive tax cuts were passed on as the reagan tax cuts. Because he was the president. He did not make excuses. Democrats controlled congress. There were relationships. Because he didnt spend time attacking people. Sears amy, listen helping because is not seen enough of donald trump . What im saying is this what conservatism has become . Rationalization carrying water for donald trump as opposed to say thats talk about ideas and small government. We care about the debt, how do we make peoples lives better. The conversation were having is a conversation i have with the left and they say donald trump is conservative. He is the conservative movement wasnt that the point youre making . No. They feel like theyve spent years denigrating and controlling the narrative about what conservative is. Its easy to put him in that box. Ive been discussing nobody expected him to be a conservative which is in fact maybe what the point is, we need a businessman of action. This is about triage, but we find in the emergency room when youre brought in and assess emergency room dr. Lets get this stuff so we can move to get back into a better self. Thats a good analogy. Have a medical crisis and its triage in the emergency room. I bring in a dr. , not a reality tv star. I dont bring in somebody who has never been in the hospital and his life is known for making promises he cant keep. But americans did see him in that way. Some dead. Enough that hes the triage guy. So if we take that and have faith in that decision for a moment and then you have the people who have been there in the house and senate who seem to not be able to move in their area. Lets talk about why obama care repealed will fail. Ive been meaning to get to this as well, we actually both come from a liberal background. And here we are. This is what excites me about politics. Were talking about the politics. Identify as a conservative and you do as well. Were very different. Thats a bridge that hasnt been met. A lot of people say cant be a conservative because im a gay woman. So those conversations, this your faith and what it means to each of us, this is personal. This book of the politics of last year personal about what you stand for and i stand for, we have the same worries with different individuals that we think need to be dealt with. I think people felt comfortable voting for President Trump because of the ideas of who is in congress. No one expected congress to be stalled. Thats what is harming things. Because of the passion that people feel about trump and being against him versus what can we do as conservatives, legislatively, to get things done and move past the vitriol of what the American People dead. I dont know. Its also a matter of what are the priorities and if you ask ten different republicans you make it ten different answers. But were exposing some problems in the conservative movement. Im thinking is the phrase in the book but i use it a lot, a lot of things i believe in you have been saying the same things for many years as if the same solutions applicable in the 80s or 70s still need to be applied now. We as conservatives havent really changed our approach. Some people would say isnt that what donald trump did and i do think he exploited some defenses. This is a moment of maximum success. You needed to win all of these things. Yet here we are its more than just donald trump. Thats i tried to talk about the conservative movement and how its tearing itself apart over decades and years. Not only a personal story and how americans change political politically, but then just like is your father a liberal to like what he saw with the vietnam war, adapted and changed to events happening in your lives. Americans are going to the same thing now. The value of your view, the intellectual element is much more fluid because theyre open to ideas. At the end of your book you discuss with the goal of wanting the country to succeed. What would you say to people as were trying to define ourselves in triage saving the nation with the unique man at the helm, what can conservatives in congress to to bring us through this and to remain that shining city on the hill. We need to go back to the concept of buckley. Its the balance of competing values that they fused. I also think we need to go back to First Principles like lets make sure we do no harm in the constitution was written the way it was. Process matter. The rule of law matters. Respect for the rule of law matters. Be great to hold each other to the same standards as opposed what we live in now we have moral relativism. Everyone switches their standards. I think there is a diagram between liberals and conservatives. Things like truth, the rule of law, the importance of the balance of powers, all of those things to keep our democracy intact. Also to realize that we dont actually need to keep up this cycle of hyperpolarization. Politics is not about ideas or principles. Its about travel loyalty and attitude. Its making us meaner and dumber in a lot of ways. I hope some intelligent voices will find ways to keep the conversation going. For the average water not involved in politics a much, even the democrats who voted for the president , their goal and agenda . They see the difficulties, the tribalism also has a problem. Does it speak to this idea that the constant argument about what the president is or is not as part of the problem. We know hes unique. But isnt this where america delivers . We rise above it. Isnt that what the goal should be as facilitated they were coming a functioning government . Isnt that what it stands for . You should start with the reality on the ground. Only making it easier for kids, do we have an ethical framework of government . The American People are resilient and hopefully we can get through this. I think we will. Its a very exciting time, how the right lost its mind. Lots of great stuff in here. Your background and what we can and should be doing. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. In 1979, cspan was created as a Public Service americas Cable Television companies and is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. Every weekend book tv offers programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. Keep watching for more and cspan2. Watch any of our past programs a booktv. Org. Cspan, where history of full daily. 1979 cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies. Its brought you today by your cable or satellite provider. And now when olson. Author of seven books, many on world war ii including troubles and young men. In her recently published, book