Poison of american soldiers. Anybody have any questions about the convenient terrorist . I have a question. So where i met in the store by that is they have the wrong person, the wrong abu zubaydah, the wrong one. , correct . There were two of them you mention, theres a parallel but they are holding them, the other speedy recaptured sea power the history and geopolitics of the worlds oceans in march 28, 2002. My coauthor, the cia officer come was a person who actually captured abu zubaydah. Before he was captured there was a bartleby put out by the rand corporation, and it was also put out by them as well as all a bit of information from the cia and fbi. They came up with this biography that he was born in saudi arabia. He was raised in the gaza strip in palestine. He was a young age in his teens he joined the egyptian Islamic Jihad movement, and then from there moved to pakistan and joined alqaeda and was thirdhighest Ranking Member in alqaeda. He ran a Training Camp in afghanistan. Come to find out, none of that are most of that is not true about the abu zubaydah we are holding in guantanamo right now but it fits a abu zubaydah, his cousin that lived in, lived in all those places, palestine and grew up and joined alqaeda but actually didnt florida. He was a pilot. A pilot, he lived about a mile away from the hijackers in florida, the 9 11 hijackers. He moved to montana right before 9 11. He bought a 5000acre ranch with 650,000 worth of travelers checks. That was located by by the dam which he was going to the library continuously studying. I interviewed many people in montana and in florida. He was a very shady character. He was connected with the alqaeda spies here in the u. S. , and he was studying and we believe he wanted to blow up the Fort Peck Dam which wouldve ruined hundreds of thousands of acres. I think the book was actually wrong by saying just thousands of acres. Its hundreds of thousands of farmland, acres of farmland that wouldve been ruined if that wouldve been destroyed. Right before 9 11 on the ninth with the tenth of september his house blew up on his property. He went on the run. Federal agents pick him on the 19th of september, and they put him in custody, and from there he kind of went through the system and they charged him filed on march 28, the same day the captured the abu zubaydah thats in guantanamo, which is coincidence and very suspicious at the same time. And then he disappears. We have looked all over. I credit this could look all 400 he disappears until 2004 when somebody sees him, somebody i interviewed in the middle east named a mood, im only going to give his first name, he saw them in a prison in jordan, this abu zubaydah who was here. But before i get a second interview in, three weeks before, three weeks after i interviewed in the first on he was thrown on the aft danis then pakistani border. Theres a lot of suspicion quicker with an beginning they conflate i believe they conflated these peoples biographies, made him into one and thats where they got confusion on abu zubaydah. Dont get me wrong, the abu zubaydah in guantanamo was not a good guy. Thats the other thing is going to say. He is being held but hes kind of got a shady past as well. He may not be held on the charge of the other one but he is still not a good person. He was not a good guy. He forged documents for people to go to jihadi Training Camps all throughout afghanistan. He was a master forger. He still brags about it to this day. John captured him, and i took him from cia custody and put them in dod custody at guantanamo. So we know more about this guy than anybody and thats why we decided to actually write this book. But he was, and its just so confusing. His life is so complex, and to understand the concepts and the beliefs in the middle east and understand the history of afghanistan is hard. Theres no other word for it. Its really ridiculously hard. Do you think you mentioned they were like the 16 people to account associate with him all ended up dead . Thats what the chapter put in there, the dead pool. Its just, everyone that was captured that night in a safe house is no longer living. His best friend is no longer living. Anybody we go to to get more answers about abu zubaydah and who he really was is now gone. Actually one of them died september 9, 2006 i was on duty that night in guantanamo, and i saw three guys moved out of the cell and taken to a cia black site, which is very top secret but now its been revealed as the cia black site which i revealed my first book. And in all three came back dead that night from the cia site. With isil black site that means a facility that was supposed to be in guantanamo. It was outside of the duty facilities. So all three came back dead that night. One of those was one of the guys was in this safe house with abu zubaydah. So that was another one that bit the dust i guess, that knew him. Im not done yet, so i have i havent finished the book yet. Thanks. Do you have anything . So not to ask you to speculate but just knowing the story that this is not they say it is or he still about get but hes not the guy. Having been, worked in guantanamo and stuff, would you say this is indicative of them saying they have captured certain people and not really having done that . Is this a bigger problem that what we are aware of . It is. Let me first say with some really that people in guantanamo. People that should never see the light of day again. But thats my opinion. We are a nation of laws. We should try these people. Right now theyre being held without charge or due process, which is not american, in my beliefs. It is an argument for that and understand peoples arguments. They say they are prisoners of war, or they are not prisoners of war, their detainees, enemies of combatants actually that is something, that is covered under the geneva convention, its covered under, in the 1940s we covered people who were not in uniform, not any combatants but pows. Specifically the Freedom Fighters from france. The French Resistance against the german army, but for the german army the French Resistance was blowing up the hitters were german soldiers and families would go to watch, movie theaters and wrestle things like this. So to the germans these French Resistance were terrorists. So in a way out a lot of the people, they should be treated, they should be in jail but they should have due process without making them prisoners of war, we take away the due process. They are not charged and they are not tried, and i think thats wrong. If theyre guilty of what they did, put them in court, federal court and charge them, or military commissions even which actually is scaling right now. I just believe we should charge people with crimes and put them in prison if they deserve it. And the problem with some of people we have down there, what i witnessed is in the initial invasion of afghanistan, we were giving bounties to people who were turning in alqaeda or taliban members. So afghanistan is very tribal. We found out that any tribes were turning in other tribal members and were giving them 5000 for an alqaeda operative or a taliban operative. Thats a years salary in afghanistan. So we had tribal people turning in other tribal people, not alqaeda. When i got down there we had a lot of old farmers, a lot of strange, just people that shouldnt have been there. We had some bad people but we had a lot of that off of the bounty. It was george h. W. Bush, sorry, george w. Bush actually freed a lot of them and then obama freed a few more. George w. Freed more once he went through them, but theyre still, there still a couple to this day that i question whether they should be free. Now, on the other hand, when we made the swap with bergdahl, Sergeant Bergdahl and five taliban fighters, those five guys were bad dudes. We should never have released those guys for bergdahl thats like releasing five taliban generals for one of our soldiers. So weve done a lot of wrong, a lot of right. Its really just, its a lawless place and it really needs to be corrected. [inaudible] i think its important if abu zubaydah was an alqaeda, then he was a . Is one of the question to answer in the book. What group did he belong to . He had to belong to somebody. He was running Training Camps over the heat belong to a group that was doing legwork for the cia since 1973. We know that during the afghan russian war we were paying some of these warlords a ton of money and giving them weapons and giving them realtor support. We were giving propaganda support. We spent a lot of money training a lot of these warlords and their armies to fight the russians. And sias was one of the biggest contributors, well, we contributed to his group more than almost all the others. His group was also finally money that a little no group of time called alqaeda, which were also fighting the soviets as well. But they were all backed u. S. Money, and then after the u. S. Pulled out of afghanistan in 1989, or after the russians pulled out of afghanistan, soviets, we stop sinning everything, our money cut just like that. And at that point over 40 of the country was aged 14 years old or younger. Thats how many people were wiped out. We wouldnt even send money to rebuild schools or anything else. Else. We just left them high and dry. The russians were beat, and these people grew up with these warlords, these kids just come in with our false propaganda city over there, were sending propaganda over there making this radical islamic beliefs for giving them the spirit to fight. So these kids grew up thinking the u. S. Just abandoned them. They grew up with a lot of hate, a lot of hate for the u. S. , and it backfired on us quite a bit. A lot of it, i just can imagine a country with that many children with no guidance, and this is what comes out of it. You mentioned the other abu zubaydah in the United States, florida, montana. These days we are a lot about the whole immigrants and things like that. Do you think that we downplayed the possible terrorist threat within the United States, or is it overblown, based on the fact he was at that point and possibly doing, plotting terror things . Its worse than the left wants to admit that is not as bad as the right says it is. Its right in the middle somewhere. I think what President Trump is doing right now with immigration, i think he is your turn to get people to follow the rule of law, which actually all these laws that are put in place is basically from bill clintons era of presidency, and hes that change anything. He should try to get them to follow the laws that bill clinton put into place. Whether that right or wrong thats another debate. I think im going to stay clear what i think on that. But somewhere in between where both of them are. Thats what i believe. I think another big issue in the book is, and a lot of people recently have taken question two is mine and John Kiriakou belief on torture. We all think torture works. We witnessed interrogations. John witnessed interrogations. Torture is, i will talk about torture. Abu zubaydah was water boarded 83 times. He was solitary confinement, he was kept awake for more than ten days. He had some things that i just cant even, cant even say on cspan done to him, but the problem is, is we are a nation of laws. We are americans, and we have to set the example for the rest of the world. Added dont think torture, torturing people is way to do it. Theres a lot of people come up with this ticking time bomb theory where, well, what if theres a bomb going to go off in washington, d. C. , and you find out about it and just to our sysop somebody and you have him in custody . The ticking time bomb scenario is not realistic. Thats something from 24. In the beginning when they were interrogating him and the person came dressed like, was it a saudi soldier . And then actually was happy, like some comfort and thats when he gave up the three phone numbers, right . Unfortunately those people all killed but if they were getting somewhere making that connection is how they think the interrogator is referencing it, you know, did they really believe that he wasnt giving up enough information . Is that why they chose to torturing . He was giving up information at first when using custody of the fbi. The fbi does not do enhanced interrogation techniques. They do report building and it takes time. Its a long process. They befriend him, they gain trust, thats what works. The cia contracted to men who i met who came up with the idea of enhanced interrogation techniques, which is the waterboarding and other horrible things. They were paid 8 80 million to come up with this enhanced interrogation techniques. And these two guys kept telling us, the cia, he knows more, they are lying. They are psychologist and the cia kept paying them. The fbis telling the novant its not working, this is torture, its illegal. There was a huge civil war within our agencies over this issue. So when the sky started interrogating him in a negative manner, or torturing him, that was before they were signed off by the president that they could start this. They started in advance. Did those people have repercussions, the interrogators . I believe it started a couple dates and events but like coauthor please they started right after it was approved. Its really a great area. And how it was approved is totally wrong. I mean, its still illegal on the books in the u. S. To waterboarding someone pick in 1946 we assassinated japanese soldiers for waterboarding our u. S. Soldiers that were captured. It was an offense punishable under death. And its still on the books but yet theres another law that contradicts it. So its, the legality on this especially being a law professor just fascinates me to no end. I cant understand how the law got so jumbled. Its amazing. Is amazing he is still alive. After everything that he has endured. He is too high profile person to kill, but hes definitely has too much information with the group he was associated to being connected with the Central Intelligence agency, never being who he who we study was. They cant charge them with a crime because of that. They cant give him due process because of who he is and who he is affiliated with. So we city in a legal limbo with no human rights whatsoever he is sitting in legal limbo. Kind of nightmarish. You think about how much money are we spending, the United States spending to keep obviously we dont want them out because of that. I mean, i really think we have Khalid Sheikh muhammad down in guantanamo who orchestrated the 9 11 attacks. And hes on trial right now to military commissions but hes been in pretrial for three and half years. Put him in a federal court and try him here in the u. S. We have 100 conviction rate when we try terrorists in the u. S. What are we afraid of . I dont understand. But the problem is Khalid Sheikh muhammad, we water boarded 183 times. So if you put them in a legitimate court and we torture someone, then it becomes a legal issue, can the prosecution when the case . This guy should never be released. How do you deal with it . The torture really clogs a lot of things up, and it just doesnt work. They will tell you whatever you want to hear when you torture someone. Where report building is the only method that is proved to work, and stop terror attacks. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Your coauthor got into some trouble . Yes. My coauthor, John Kiriakou, the man who captured abu zubaydah, he revealed in 2006 that he was the first one to reveal that we waterboarded a prisoner. He gave it information up in his book come his first book the reluctant spy. And he went on abc news and said we were doing this method when it was classified, you want supposed to say that, and he was charged with the espionage act for revealing that information. And ironically, he served two years in prison for that. And ironically he is the only person to serve time for the rendition and torture program that we have for these people. So the torturers got off scott free. He served time for revealing that we actually did that. Do you ever find yourself having to be careful and edit what youre saying because of that type of like now, are you choosing your words carefully . I am, sure. The cia and the fbi, theres a lot of news articles coming up next week in the near times in the daily beast and Time Magazine and newsweek. They are really pushing back hard on this book. The cia and the fbi, ive responded i think pretty well but they really didnt like this book coming out. We actually had parts of this book edited by the city because john had to get it vetted and they won they couldnt get them because i wrote them. I didnt fall under cia authority, even though i have done work with all the agencies. I didnt have to do that. You chose your words on the more carefully early on and you werent being followed . I that people, on my first book when i was traveling, i that people, very strange people stop in the air force and things like that that knew i a lot about me that should never known that much and told me i should be careful. Thank you. Thank you. Im just going to read the office notes for everyone right now. On december 9, 2014 i weighed in front of the computer for the center of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee to raise its report on torture. The report had not yet been made public and i was very anxious to see what it would say. I believe one of people who would be featured in the 419 page report was a highvalue detainee that was being held and cant guantanamo named abu zubaydah. When the report was finally made public, i found that i had been correct. Abu zubaydah was mentioned. However, there was something surprising in the report. Something i had not expected at all. Namely, that was abu zubaydah was mention more than a thousand times. Reading this report was personal for me. In fact, it was probably the most personal thing ive ever read. Eight years earlier i had been in the military assigned to an Intelligence Unit at one time away. In this capacity i persisted in the operation that are transferred abu zubaydah from cia custody into the custody of the department of defense. Years later i was hired as the lead researcher on the abu zubaydah kbs defense team. I worked on that team for two years and in the stairs i threw myself completely into the details of his life. Learning everything there was of his biography analyzing government documents concerning him, anything his family of friends and associates, through this research the one thing became absolute certain about abu zubaydah was he was not the number three guy and alqaeda as you as government had claimed. In fact, it was to the contrary. There was compelling evidence that abu zubaydah was not even a member of alqaeda. In the real world a persons life is complicated. It does not always fit easily in simple categories that explain his life entirely. He was not a blameless follower. And abu zubaydah was not an innocent man either. Abu zubaydah was a real person, not a terrorist monster and not for lack of a better words and innocent land. While the u. S. Government and his attorneys continue to go back and forth, as they do to this day, one thing is for sure. Neither side wants the truth to come out. Myself in John Kiriakou had more knowledge on abu zubaydah than anyone else so we decided to write this book, the convenient terrorist. Thank you. Hillary clintons memoir on the 2016 president ial election was published this past week by simon schuster. What happened details are run up to the election and a reflection on the campaign and its aftermath. Several Media Outlets have posted reviews. From the new york times, daily beast come in and the chicago tribune, to usa today, the Washington Post and the guardian. Secretary clintons media tour for her book includes public talks in cities throughout the country such as chicago, new york, austin, atlanta, philadelphia and seattle. Cspan will be covering her first stop in washington, d. C. , live this monday september 18 at 7 p. M. Eastern. Look for it to we err on booktv the following weekend september 23 and 24th. Exact Schedule Information will be available on our website booktv. Org, or on your channel guides. This morning on booktv live coverage of the brooklyn book festival starting at 10 a. M. Eastern. Has impacted her family in her book cuz the life and times of michael a. Shes interviewed by wes moore, ceo of the Robin Hood Foundation and author of the other wes moore. Host im wes moore and it is a distinct honor to sit here with doctor Danielle Allen to talk about her new book cuz the life and times of michael a. Guest im glad to be here. Host i want to get a bit ofac