Transcripts For CSPAN2 Robert Doubek On Creating The Vietnam Veterans Memorial 20240622

Guests. [applause] Nonfiction Author or what you would like to see featured on booktv . Send us an email at booktv cspan. Org. Tweet us at booktv or post on our wall facebook. Com booktv. Robert doubek, cofounder of the Vietnam Memorial fund provides an inside account of the creation of the Vietnam Veterans memorial which was completed in 1982 after a much debated Design Competition. [inaudible conversations] good afternoon, thank you for coming out this afternoon. I am one of the coowners of politics and prose. I wasnt expecting that. I did not arrange that. Kerri kind. My husband and co owner is not here, he wishes he could be. The rest of the staff we are delighted to have you here for this event and for such a fascinating book and topic. I want to make a couple quick housekeeping announcements, the first of which is if you happen to have a device of any sort that might make noise in the next hour we would be grateful if you could turn it off or silence it or get it to a point where it wont make noise. The second thing is for those who have been to our events we ask you to hold up shares and put them into the side. You do not need to do that because you are the second of three events today so we of leading shares out and we will do a signing at the end for the usual direction and if you have a question for the question and answer session and could please get to this microphone here we videotaped these. You could tell cspan is here. It would be nice to hear the questions you ask some major way to the microphone if possible. The last thing i would like to say, the second of three events today, we have 500 events a year, probably another hundred or so, including three of the six bus boy is, overseeing book operations would be in brooklyn, at tacoma and 14th, a lot to keep track of those events as well as classes and trips and other programming. If your interested in knowing more you can find the Information Online at politicspros. Com. We just got our august calendars. They are easy to put in a purse or briefcase or hang on your refrigerator. They read the information desk, picked one up so you know what is going on in august. To the reason you are actually here which is the book and the arthur. It is a pleasure to host robert doubek. He will be talking about his new book creating the Vietnam Veterans memorial, the inside story. If you didnt live in washington, in the late 1970s or early 1980s or if you happen to live elsewhere but never read a newspaper you might not have realized there was an inside story behind the Vietnam Veterans memorial. Since its completion in 1,984,100 Million People visited the black granite wall with 59,000 names etched into it and i suspect most all of you are among those who have visited it, marvels at its simplicity. I know i have more than a few times and perhaps watched as loved ones has their fingers over the names or leave men untils or stand before the wall and ponder a complicated part of nations history. The Memorial Service has become a permanent powerful part of the landscape of the National Mall but its evolution from a vision of a passionate set of advocates to a controversy over the designer to its completion and permanent place on the mall is an inside story and a fascinating story but rather in take for granted that it simply happened now have the full story by heart and how it came to be. Robert was just the one to provide details, part of conceding and planning the monument, was project director when it was constructed, served in vietnam in 1969 as an Intelligence Officer in the u. S. Air force and today works at the state department. Now he can add another title to his resume, author. His book is a wonderful addition to that history of the city in the nation and a wonderful chronicle of how ideas, politics and people intersect in the creation of a National Monument and in memory of people who sacrificed so much for our country. Of pleasure to have you here. Please join me in welcoming chihuahua 17. [applause] thank you very much, thank you very much, lisa, and i really thank all of my friends, colleagues and compatriots for being here with me. Those of you i dont know personally, very happy to see you here as well. In the three decades of its existence the Vietnam Veterans memorial has become an american cultural icon symbolizing the difficult period in our history when we were at war in viet nam which was the defining experience of the baby boom generation. The wall has become one of the most heavily visited monuments in the country. My book tells the story of how it was created and how it came close to not happening at all. As Washington Post reporter murphy wrote in november of 1982, the sunday before we dedicated the memorial, quote, is in keeping with the character of the vietnam war that the memorial is the center of an emotional debate about esthetics and artistic renditions of war, patriotism and heroics. This is a brief recap. 1979 the group of former Junior Officers and enlisted men came together and found a Nonprofit Corporation to build a memorial to honor the veterans of the dead of the vietnam war. We perceive its purpose as recognizing the service and sacrifice of those who were in fair rather then continuing to use them as pawns in a debate against the war. A hope for by product would be the memorial could help reconcile the country after the war since supporters and opponents could agreed the veterans deserved recognition and that led to the requirement that the memorial itself could not make any political statement about the war itself and it turned out we were naive as others perceived a different role for the memorial. To obtain the design beside a number of alternatives one of which was to design it ourselves which is a recipe for disaster. A second path was to find the best five architecture firms in the country and hold a Competition Among them. This of course led to the question of how you are going to decide who are the best architecture firms . We ultimately decided on an idea to hold an open design contribution open to any u. S. Citizen overrating years of age whether they are amateur or professional. Not long, this arrows not longer after we announced the memorial lecture we began to hear from a variety of sundry architects, designers, landscape architects, veterans all offering to design the memorial for us for free. Of 1 debt get to us before those this obs in the figurative monarchist realistic abstractionist or even neatest camps got to as first and messed up our breens. And open competition appeared to be an Excellent Way to manage this deluge and also appeared to be fair. For all i knew there could be someone starting in wyoming, born to design this. As we all know that is almost the way it happened. We said four basic criteria for the design. First, that it could make no political statement about the war as we felt the rancor over the war had done more than anything divided, deprived veterans of their recognition. Secondly, the memorial would include inscription of 58,000 names of men who died or remained missing. It is the intention was to honor all his served but this would be a special tribute. The third had to do with its location. We have argued very strongly to get congress to designate this site for us in constitution gardenss over the objections of the park service to basically negotiate with the park service we had to design something harmonious with the site and environment. We couldnt do another Lincoln Memorial Washington Monument, we couldnt stick a helicopter on a pole for that matter. The fourth and final criterion was the one that really went to our philosophical base which was that the memorial should reflect the compton to if contemplating character. We were looking for something to make a grand declaration. The most difficult decision was the composition of the jury. Again there were advocates ourselves being the jury and again that was a recipe for disaster because i knew very little about our design and the others knew even less. The second idea was to put together a jury that would represent all the groups affected by the war. There would be so many veterans, so many goldstar parents, so many activists and so on. We ultimately decided to have a jury composed of the most experienced and prestigious artists and designers we could find. This was important because the reputation of the jurors was important to attract the best designers to the competition and was also important to minimize secondguessing by the federal approval agencies because they have already tied up the memorial to Franklin Roosevelt for 25 years as we know. Again as it turned out on may 1st, 1981, the jury having viewed 1421 entries in the competition, start simple design, a 21yearold woman student. Any opposition to the more we expected from the antiwar and liberal elements of society and to our surprise and shock it came mainly from conservatives including powerful and influential individuals like billionaire ross perot, james webb who is now apparently a president ial candidate. Columnist pat buchanan, the novelist tom wolfe. There were some congressmen, senators, members of staff of the heritage foundation, some members of the staff of the secretary of the interior. They in my opinion had a vision of the memorial as a vehicle to justify the war and rebuked the Antiwar Movement and celebrate heroism and glory. Face of the competition winning design as a betrayal. At first glance there negative perception might have been understandable. After all it contrast to the gleaming white tower of the Washington Monument. This thing was black and reseeded into the ground. Secondly it constituted a space for contemplation rather than an object or rebuilding or any other monument to glory. In my view the controversy over the design that almost sank the ship constituted a perfect storm. Is intensified by a teasing and touching a number of unresolved fault lines in American Society which are still present after the war. These included the question of whether the war itself was right or wrong. There was the question of whether it was illconceived from the outset or lost due to the activities of a domestic fifth column that stab dbacks tab. Also the issue was whether the veterans could be honored regardless of whether the war was right or wrong and finally, not finally but among others joy the memorial have to be realistic and didactic stating any equivocal message or could be contemplative, reflective and provocative, basically allowing a visitor to form his or her own interpretation. In another sore point touched my controversy involves race. Was it appropriate for person of asian descent to design a memorial to men and women who fought against asians. As the debate dragged on, these fault lines reveal themselves in statements and rumors. We heard that the memorial had been, quote, designed baia duke, the one of the jurors was a communist, that the majority of the jurors had been antiwar activists and also that the memorials extension of any statement about the war itself amounted to an antiwar statement. The controversy reached such the point that the secretary of the interior was prepared to summarily shoot it down. He was persuaded by the prospect of a compromise and how we achieved that is laid out in my book. Among other things the book deals with are the challenge of conducting a largest Design Competition ever held in the United States and the meticulous task of verifying the accuracy and completeness of 58,000 names that were to be inscribed in stone and many people in the book remained in the National Spotlight over the ensuing three decades including buchanan, chuck hegel, judith martin, miss manners, ross perot, elizabeth taylor, john warner and web. A few passages. This starts off in april of 1979 and i attended the meeting called for the purpose of generating publicity for Vietnam Veteranss needs. Suddenly the lone wolf it hadnt otherwise said a word stood up and threw out his idea. What about a memorial . In view of the discussion he came totally out of left field. What do you mean . Someone said. I mean having a National Memorial for Vietnam Veterans. Vienna on veterans dont need a memorial, they need better benefits, a few others made joy similar remarks and some smirked while the man stood silently. No one spoke in support and i felt sorry for him. The idea didnt deserve contempt. After the man sat down i kept looking at him and thinking about his idea. Some Vietnam Veterans truly needed more benefits, most didnt. What all did need is some recognition and acknowledgment of their service in the war. I hadnt faced combat and hadnt been injured but many had. I met some of the best people in my life in vietnam and the military in general. Many believed in president kennedys exhortation to do for your country and bear any burden in the defense of freedom. I resent hearing this idealism, heroism, sacrifice dismissed with lightly veiled contempt by the yuppie professional class of washington. Especially galls me since my fellow denizens of the Legal Profession had demonstrated no special claim on values like morality, courage and idealism. There are some good lawyers too. The next passage deals with in december of 1979 senator john warner really not far away from here held a breakfast at his house in georgetown to raise the initial money we need to launch the fundraising campaign. As i rang the doorbell i laughed myself about what was on my mind. Soon we would learn the answer to the question would we get to meet Elisabeth Taylor . I was fairly certain, warners estate in middelburg, va. Couldnt imagine how someone so famous cabinet privacy living in washington. Hollywood stars stopped traffic and turned heads. Later on, this kids a few minutes, the rooms and filled up with men in conservative suits. Monaco was the only woman. Was an equal standoff between two generations of veterans. 13 of a served in or during vietnam, after urging corporate wraps by and large were old enough to the our fathers. Many were retired military officers who served in world war ii, corey and vietnam. Ha started the breakfast funds to get mine out of the way. By 8 20 the conversation quiet as. Is sitting around a room focus on balancing plates and coffee cups on their knees. Under the garden windows. Suddenly to my left the kitchen door flew open and warner stepped through decisive the. Gentlemen, the chef, he announced. Behind him, through the door followed table. She wore a pink robe but different from her neck to below her knees. The robust tight around her neck by a white cord with fluffy white balls. On her feet she wore pink slippers which had fluffy white balls matching those on her collar at the toes. Officers rain the order in my mind, the same one i heard when brass engine room. Clear the i wasnt the only one who heard it. The entire room stood at attention. Those of us who formed a fairly straight ranks, looking to my left eye could see each man holding out his plate at belt level as if presenting arms with scrambled egg. Taylor was proceeding down the road greeting each individual personally. I now became nervous picturing her as an agenda reviewing troops and senate would be my turn. Suddenly i was gazing into her purple tinge blue eyes surrounded by a wreath of raven hair. She had gained some weight but her face could still launch a thousand ships. I offered my hand, introduced myself and felt her Firm Handshake in she smiled and for an instant appeared i had passed the test. Then suddenly she said what is that endecott the blues to my lapel did i wore a white metal disk about 1 8 of an inch in diameter which the profile of George Washington was printed in purple to simulate the purple heart medal. It was clamped down with the middle flap that folded over. These were cheap. The red cross had given out this type of button when i was a kid. I didnt like them but for the time being they were all we had. Oh yes, these are veterans Vietnam Veterans pins, may i have an . Of course i said and the my head down and talking in my arms in order to undo the clampett. Finally i held it between thumb and forefinger and face the limo. The only place it could possibly attached to her clothing was the support around her neck. The white fluffy ball flared out resting dangerously close to her breast. It went through my mind that these two of the most renowned women in the world especially after the movie cleopatra. To clamp the disk around a slack cord would take a lot of dexterity which wasnt my strong suit. I could easily slip. I didnt. I held the pen out until she finally realized my dilemma and took it and pinned it, helped herself to pin it on the court. As she moved on i thought to myself no guts no glory. This last passage occurred in a. That was a total of 18 months later. We had gone through the Design Competition and announce the winning design with a press conference on may 2nd or may 6th, 1981, so this talks about the reaction to the design. This was before social me the and email. At brought letters from competitors and veterans, mostly critical of the results. An architect from california expounded the design, quote, has the warmth and charm of an obsidian dagger and fits the setting like a knife wound scar. The American Public has been misled by a coterie of nihilists. The and not veteran called it, quote, a hole in the earth which suggests digging in and hiding, it suggests to me the publics perception of a pitch. Competitor and combat veteran from louisiana thought it was an absolute refusal to acknowledge and honor the surviving veterans. The proposed memorial reflects the true situation of the vietnam veteran, bury the dead and ignore the needs of the living. His own design was a statue of the soldiers sitting slumped over with his rifle across his knees. And architecture from washington d. C. Saw the selection as an extreme disservice to the public, veterans and other competitors as well. It was their monument and its selection should have been their choice. His wife wrote a column of boring and doll monstrosity and give americans something to be proud of even as motherinlaw chimed in your choice was a joke and you want to be ashamed of yourself. And army major said it was neither inspirational like the Washington Monument or thoughtprovoking like the e with the memorial, just a black wall that expresses nothing. Pc justin using it as a backdrop and send the schedule acute piece of broken bamboo sticking up with barbed wire twining around it. I just before i conclude, in writing the book and knowing sometime the public reaction to the memorials i sometimes think that our opponents may be correct and that the memorial is designed really, primarily honors the dead rather than all the veterans. This is i think especially because the design is very strongly overpowered by the description of the names which is one of the most powerful elements, at the same time i would say this is really what the country needed. I think the country needed to mourn on this memorial is about that. I would also think that the memorial would have had the same positive effect on the veterans that it had, had we styled it at the beginning as simply a memorial to those have died in the war. I know some of my colleagues, my good friend john woods, they disagree. Before we go to questions i just want to point out to there are a number of people here who are mentioned in the book, in the front row is patrick who worked, he is primarily a a representative for Public Relations Campaign Leading up to the dedication. To my left is john woods, he is a disabled combat veteran of war, he served with me on the entire conceptualization of the Design Competition and he sat on the panel that excepted the juries, that excepted the juries decision. Is there anyone else here that is coming late that i have miss . Jim, jim great, this is jim he is a marine officer, combat bedroom from vietnam and hes the guy who got up before the Fine Arts Commission in support of the design and he said howell match anybody metal for metal. She won that competition fair and square. Thanks jim. , bill i didnt think youre going to make it. Will this is bill leckie, who we selected to be the architect and this is the man with his partner ken cooper who shepherd this whole design from a concept to a set of plans and actually got it on the construction team. Bill is also the designer of the korean war memorial, can i say that question marks that correct bill. Yes the architect. If you have a question please make a way to the microphone we would be grateful for that. I would like to make a comment rather than a question, when you talk about the impact its had on veterans, when i went out to the memorial three or four days it before it was set to open, to set up tv stands and all of those usual things, the, the memorial was supposedly blocked off yet they were people who had gone through the blocks, they just threw them aside. They were out there just bringing mementos already to the memorial before it even open, i thought at that point that i thought at this point at that point it this is going to be just fine and opponents of it arent going to have to just give up. It was was a terrific day. Thank you. Thank you for the book i very much enjoy reading the rest of the story, i have two short questions. In several instances you mention you are ambivalent toward the design, that youre not an artist, youre a lawyer. Where. Where do you stand about today . And then i would just like to quote here, this is myelin, she reportedly was sick at heart wanting to see the memorial built as the design or not at all, he felt we needed to show respect for the Design Community and let lynn testify against it at the commission on fine arts, as she reconciled herself to the memorial as belts . While the first one was yes, i have to say as they say in the book, or in the entire time it was under construction i would go to work one day and be positive behind it and then the second day i would think we are making a mistake. Again i was not a designer, my background as a lawyer i relied upon experts and we had the best jury in the country but many of the opponents were people i respected for their courage, sacrifice, and heroism. I would say nowadays, i think we did the right thing and again it may be simply because i have heard so many overwhelmingly positive comments from complete strangers about it. Your second question had to do with, you know i really dont know, i dont think i have ever seen the question were seen any comment from her that pins that down. High thank you very much for the book, and all all the hard work you did on the memorial and thank you for inviting me for some of those early meetings, even though the good attorneys there that early group. Anyway, i met you at Georgetown Law School and jim webb was in our class, im curious in terms of some of the players now like jack wheeler and jan scruggs, what are they doing now and you all get together for anniversary meetings of the group, or any upcoming thing, or whats going on. Will paul as you well know as he with your activities in support of the hungarians, all of my nonprofit activities have been in support of the Czech Republic in the last two decades. Basically, tragically, Scott Wheeler was found murdered right after the new years and i think it was in 2001 or 2000. The crime has not been solved. Jen scruggs continued on as the president of the american prince of the Czech Republic and the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Pond and really just up down as the chief executive or chief operating officer earlier this year. You really had a lot of existence. Thats right and the came back and did a lot of other activities and another got underway the idea to build this Education Center on the wall. Excellent. Before i take another question i just recognize terry robinson, harry is also in the book he was the dean of architecture at howard university. I remember when he called me up and said bob, im the only dean of the major Architectural School in this country that has been wounded and decorated in vietnam. He along with jim testified before the Fine Arts Commission and lead a lot of credibility, thank you. As we talked earlier i was i was a reporter with the Washington Times and this was first getting off the ground the challenges you had getting this done, as you cited ross perot and jim webb, i wrote some wrote some of the stories quoting them so i know of the things that you did in the particular criticism that a lot of veterans had and im a vietnam veteran myself was in fact just what you said, too much focus on the people who are killed and they sternly deserve a lot of attention. I was wondering now, we have questions like perot and web and of course webb is still back in the limelight again did you hear anything from him about it or in general from veterans because as i would agree with what youre saying, it kind of created or established a foundation to allow the nation to heal so there was a broader dynamic. And kudos to you for that. Know i have heard nothing, and sort of hoping not to hear from mr. Perrault. I wont mention donald trump a. And i have heard nothing at one point several years ago that i heard a statement from jim webb is saying he didnt have any problem with it as it is now laid out. As far as my impression is that the memorial has been totally embraced by the veterans, the Vietnam Veterans community. Judging by the fact that we have 50000 motorcycles, for Rolling Thunder every memorial day and there continues to be tremendous Public Acceptance of the memorial, i think its served its purpose very well. I would echo that. Okay thank you. Hi bob, do you feel the memorial really achieved its objectives, do we have further to go in terms of healing those wounds from the vietnam war in our Society Today . Well now youre getting into, youre getting into as we say subjects above my pay grade but ill take a stab at it. I think we have done enough, the memorial has done as much as anything, any memorial could do to heal the wounds of the vietnam war. I think one of the Major Healing elements is that the public has embraced the veterans for this service. I dont think anybody who is trying to blame the veterans for the war anymore. On the other hand, i would say say theres always going to be risks in our society, there we have red states, we have blue states and based upon my reading of American History these riffs go back two centuries or more. Hi jim a car. Two points, 11 i want to mention the vertex on the top, not only is it jan scruggs name inscribed also jack wheeler. Yes and most people of course are not even aware that is there. What you are talking about, what hes referring to is that because obviously you build a 10foot drop off, at the beginning of her but he thought how are you going to keep people from falling over so the design solution was 11 feet behind the wall to put a curb which is about 2 feet high. On the back curb where it meets several years after the dedication, a Memorial Fund put like a cornerstone and unfortunately people dont get up there to see it because that areas pretty much blocked off. My name happens to be on it too. Ill look for next time i sneak up there. The other point, the Education Center where you come down on the Education Center, pro or against . Some people are afraid that it will take up space on the wall. Frankly i would prefer not to, i dont have a opinion. Would like to thank all of you who participated, i get get choked up every time i go through their. Contemplating and reflective above my pay grade as a former teacher, i have twos simple true false questions. One, did mylans professor enter the competition, true or false . False. Thank you, contrary to what we often hear from the two are guides and other experts and two, did mylans professor indeed give her a c on the project . False. Thank you. If you turn to the postscripts in my book the time for this, in 2000 to the new yorker route published an article about mylan and had a fullpage picture of her and they said that we had betrayed her by having the statue. My letter to the editor pointed out her defense did the build it intact. He also had to deal with the misconception over the years, regarding the b rate he reportedly prefer the design, it was actually an a. The b was for the course as a whole and he consider that to be a gift, she had been in difference student not completing one of the four simons for the course. They decided the memorial was the last project, her first idea in a preliminary review was a quote piece of heroics culture sort of a figure and he suggested another direction. He listed two architects in manhattan to join him esters in the final class presentation for which lynn submitted a theme consisting of a line falling dominoes with the wall as a backdrop. One of the architects suggest she dropped the dominoes and leave the wall for a nice piece of minimalist art. Then one of the jurors or student suggested the name should start with implying that a continued underground. Thanks for the question. Next question. I have two questions. First question is with all the negativity surrounding the war from the total cost to our nation in both lives and in funding, what is your opinion as to why the wall is so popular . Bob i think its a combination of the fact again the war was an experience of our generation and it touched so many people, i think the wall is popular for two reasons. It speaks to that memory, that is in the consciousness of the nation, but but i believe it also speaks because of its unique and beautiful design, which again is sort of figuring out why is it above my pay grade. My second question is knowing all of the obstacles that you went through and some of them seemed very unsurmountable, i imagine at one time or another, what was the turning point where you felt that this was actually going to happen . Well it happened on monday march 15. It was 1982 and i called up john parsons and the National Capital region and i said john whats the status of the permit . He said its ready. I said okay and i got into a cab and went down to the mall and its this big stack of requirements and john said well dont you think, dont you have to get your board approval and the boards consent before a senate . Senate . I said john i have all the authority i need. I walked away with it i called jan scruggs and i said i got the permit, i got the damn permit. I would call that bill bain and that was on monday, we had had the mall torn up by the end of the week. There is a pitcher in the book, we did did not want to go through another weekend with the threat of an injunction by ross perot over our head. Yes high could you make a comment on two individuals. I know you mentioned sean parsons and could you tell us how quick he was to you and one and could you talk about Michael Davis . In this project we go through my index with my publisher made me create myself, i had almost 1000 heading so when you think almost 2 3 of them are names of people so there were a lot of people in evolved who play various roles, that was davis of buckley who we interviewed to be a professional advisor on the Design Competition and i would also like to point out where we had the designer of the korean war memorial, davis davis is the designer of the Law Enforcement officers memorial in judiciary square. John parsons was the head of landuse planning for the National Capital region and as i write in the book he was the guy who stuck his neck out to help us get this thing going and he was on the cusp of this political thrust coming from the secretary lots office. As i write in the book if there is anybody who could have been hung out to dry, if this thing had gone south, it would have been john parsons but he stuck with it the whole time. I correspond with john, hes retired in South Carolina at this point. General Michael S Davidson as i write in my book, central casting could not have created a better image of a general then general then michael s davison in the flesh. At the age of 27 he had commanded in the infantry regiment in italy during world war ii, he was a fourstar general commander of the army in europe. He also was the commander of the invasion of cambodia. He was out of the service, he was working for an engineering firm, he, he was also the president of the uso, he embraced our cause and for someone, as i say, an officer, a professional warrior to do so much to save a very quiet, complicated piece of art. Many stories i could tell about him but two things, he took on the questionable role of b in our interface with mr. Perrault secondly he is the one who stood up at this heated meeting in january of 1982 and said why dont we keep the wall in tact and add a statute to the site . That was basically what started the process of a cheap in the compromise and scaling down the statue to a realistic size and locating it so was compatible with the wall. Thank you. We have time for one or two more questions. I will be one a. I am phil ackley, i have the privilege of learning and working with bob in a Financial Institution that his knowledge actually solved problems. Maybe in some cases it doesnt, but i know bob knows how to attack problems, secondly i want to commend you on how well and precisely you just bribed Elizabeth Taylors confrontation. Ivan never known you to do it so nicely bob and3i ln third the combat in vietnam was just so disheartening for everybody but for you to bring, to the public, your compact to get this memorial approved i salute you. [applause]. I must point out that i have at home, framed hanging in the powder room, a cartoon that appeared in the Chicago Tribune which is a post memorial to the veterans over the design of the Vietnam Veterans memorial. High i work with phil ackley, you cover, in addition to being a marvelous storyteller, and i couldnt put your book down even though i have known a lot about it and had a few words to say about it over the last couple of years we have been talking about it. You mention and bring to light a lot of personal issues of your own, career paths, being a lawyer, and your satisfaction with things and i think the folks here would probably be interested to know one of the things you also took away, besides the satisfaction of building this phenomenal memorial and that is you have become a builder of memorials. Perhaps the folks here would like to know about your other triumphs in that respect which are maybe not as controversial but very significant and people should look for them when they are in the places that they exist, perhaps you can and lighten them. Thank you bruce. What