Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing 20240702

A look in how the Justice Department can counter robo calls and how Artificial Intelligence. Representatives from Tech Companies offer testimony. 6 every month americans receive 1. 5 billion to 3 billion scam calls and illegal tell ell marketing calls. This is an issue that im confident everyone in the room has dealt with. And those of you who have phones on, im sure you will receive robo calls and texts during this hearing and i wouldnt be surprised if we didnt. They interrupt sleep if you dont put your phone in sleep mode or telling them off. And time with friends and family and even during hearings. If they do, hold your phone up and share with the rest of america what is happening while in this room. They have eroded trust in our Communications Networks. Many have become subject to those fibbing attacks which are causing the American People billions of dollars. And is traced. Goes back to 2019. These protect americans from predatory and unsole is ted robocalls. And as they were implemented, the number of unsole is ted has decreased. Do not call complaints has reduced as well. Not entirely but by some numbers and the federal Communications Commission issued 500 million enforcement action over the last 12 months. The s. E. C. Has empowered the trace back group and phone companies to block by default illegal calls and it provided a statement for todays hearing and without objection, i would like to enter it into the record. However, it is important that we recognize that robo calls and texts are not just a nuisance. Scammers use our networks to defort lauderdale americans out of 39 billion. That was just in 2022 alone and enough to provide broadband to households enrolled in the Connectivity Program for eight years. I hope you understand what that means. Scammers and fly by night companies are stealing the dollars to do so and dont face any consequences. The fines go uncollected and the company dissolves and moves elsewhere. Congress must empower our regulators to ensure that when an individual or company breaks the law, they are held to account. Part of the reason these scammers are effective of tricking consumers and evading enforcement is that the technology is evolving. We will hear testimony that the consumer is increasingly falsified. Bots are using public data to consent on behalf of a consumer for calls they never asked for and do not want. Automated are using chat box and Artificial Intelligence to impersonate a real person lulling into a false sense of security by mannerisms. Bad actors are playing on our emotions and impersonating loved ones in distress. In the Senate Human Rights subcommittee, senator osoff and Ranking Member blackburn, heard testimony from one woman from arizona who was the victim of a scam call impersonating her daughter and i would like to enter her testimony in the record. Hearing none, its entered. She testified that a. I. Is unraveling the foundation of our social fabric and creating doubt and fear in what wasnt questioned. The sound of a loved ones voice. Robocallers and unravel how new and evolving technologies are challenging the landscape and what next steps are needed to protect americans from fraudulent and illegal Text Messages and calls. Im very excited that we have the panel with us today. I will introduce you momentarily. I want to recognize a friend and a leader that is with us today and Ranking Member fisher for her opening comments. Good morning and thank you chairman lujan. The persist taint calls has been a concern. Illegal and spoofed robocalls continue to be the number one consumer complaint. I want to ensure that we have the right tools in place to protect consumers from these our phones give us connection to the world around us. Whether its calling friends, family, appointments or summoning emergency services, they are part of our daily lives. They are part of our identities as well, we use them to verify who we are and hold on to them for decades or sometimes lifetimes. This allows scammers to reach directly into our homes and into our pockets. Bad actors are increasingly savvy in the technologies they use to defraud consumers. This can result in devastating financial losses. Criminals are engaging in more targeted calls and impersonating businesses like banks to steal personal data or commit financial fraud. Phone scams are still yielding the highest reported fraud losses per person, despite the rapid growth of scammers on social media platforms. In fact, fraud losses due to phone scams are higher than ever. According to a recent report, over 68 million americans lost approximately 40 billion to phone scams in 2021 alone. In many ways it feels like we have had this conversation so many times over so many years. Crucially, in 2019, Congress Passed the trace act to put wideranging solutions in motion that would reduce Illegal Robocalls. I commend my colleague, senator thune, for leading this legislation. I was glad to be a cosponsor of it. Previously i also led the spoofing prevention act which senator bill nelson which passed into law in 2018. This law was a foundational effort to increase penalties and boost enforcement tools that fight illegal spoofing. Deterrence through fines for illegal robocall activities is a key part of cracking down on nuisance calls that endanger consumers. On this front, federal agencies, particularly the Justice Department, must improve how they Work Together to ensure that unpaid fines are collected. There are no silver bullets to eradicate the scourge of illegal scam calls and techs. Lawmakers have to remain vigilant and monitor how illegal robocall schemes are evolving. We must be able to empower consumers with the knowledge of who is actually calling them and the ability to block illegal callers. We all share the goal of being able to pick up our phones safely, trusting we know who is going to be on the other end of the line. But we are not there just yet. The industry has made commendable efforts to reduce the prevalence of these illegal calls, including including through advancements in call to authorize them and trace back technology. Statistics from the federally designated Traceback Consortium, i. T. C. , indicate that certain common robocall scams have started to decline over the last couple of years. Continuing this trend will take the united cooperation of all Voice Service providers. As lawmakers we need to maintain this momentum and ensure that traceback efforts are fully supported. I urge the f. C. C. To spend its time and resources to prevent genuine criminal activity and create meaningful safe harbors for businesses acting in good faith compliance with the law. I look forward to hearing from tads witnesses about where we are in this effort and where additional assistance may be needed. Thank you for being here and thank you, chairman lujan. Thank you, senator. I want to thank you again for being with us today. But i want to commend you for your leadership in so many ways. Especially in this case when it comes to robocalls and ro bo texts and what youve been doing to bring support to the American People. Thank you so very much for that. As i introduce the panel, after the introduks well hear from ms. Saunders. Ms. Saunders is the senior attorney from the National Consumer law center. Thank you for being with us today. Ms. Megan brown, with the Cyber Security council. Mr. Josh reco rico, like the city. Industry Traceback Group. Thank you so much as well. And mr. Mike rudolph, chief Technology Officer from umill. Ms. Saunders, we look forward to your Opening Statement for five minutes. Ms. Saunders i appreciate the opportunity to testify today on what needs to be done to protect americans from robocalls. I provide my testimony today on behalf of the lowincome clients of the National Consumer law center and Consumer Federation of america. The current regulatory structure allows criminals access to americans wallets, as you cited billions of dollars stolen every year through scams executed over this nations telephones. At the same time, the combination of scam calls, along with the onslaught of illegal and unwanted telemarketing calls, have damaged our trust in our phones and made it more difficult for legitimate wanted messages to reach us. The f. T. C. Has been trying to solve the problem but to date its methods have not succeeded. In my testimony, you can see a graph of the number of robocalls and telemarketing calls and scam calls over the years and it looks like that unfortunately we are about today where we were in 2019. In terms of the combined number of calls. But either the f. T. C. Does not have sufficient legal tools to stop the calls, or it has not yet determined how to deploy those tools effectively. The commission has issued numerous regulations to implement the traceback. Brought multiple Enforcement Actions against scam callers and their complicit Voice Service providers. Yet the numbers of calls and the losses to americans keep are continuing. The problem is that complicit Voice Service providers responsible for these calls are making money for transmitting them. And as f. C. C. Commissioner jeffrey stark said, quote, Illegal Robocalls will continue as long as those initiating and facilitating them can get away with it and profit from it. End quote. To eliminate these calls, there must be incentives for compliance. Which there are not can be requn emphasis by the f. C. C. The primary goal of the f. C. C. s actions should be to protect the nations telephone subscribers from the scam calls that are stealing billions of dollars. To do that requires a change from ensuring that calls can be completed and protecting Voice Service providers access to telephone numbers telephone networks, toward shielding consumers from these illegal calls. If the f. C. C. Were to adopt a system under which it quickly suspends the ability of a Voice Service provider to participate in the network once that provider is determined to be a repeat offender, we think that would be a magic bullet. This is along the lines of the temporary restraining order procedure established in the federal rules of civil procedure. There are procedures that can be used that we think would change the incentive structure and actually cause a reduction in calls. Additionally, the f. C. C. s current regulation proibts telemarketers from calling our phones without express written consent. Telemarketers routinely ignore the specific requirements of these regulations and make about a billion illegal telemarketing calls every month. Then they defend themselves from government and private enforcement by relying on specious consent agreements that were either completely fabricated or based on supposed consent agreements sold and resold and sold again by lead generators. The f. C. C. Could actually eliminate this entire Business Model by simply reiterating its current regulations. Instead, unfortunately, it has proposed new regulations that are less protective of consumers. In a nutshell, we believe that the f. C. C. Could eliminate most of these illegal calls by changing their current emphasis. In a civilization in which we can take pictures of saturns rings, the failure to solve this problem is not a matter of technology. Its a question of whether the people in power actually want to solve it. Thank you very much. Sen. Lujan the floor is yours for five minutes. Good morning chairman lujan, Ranking Member fisher, my name is megan brown, im a partner in the Telecom Media Technology Practice at wily riems. Im here on behalf of the u. S. Chamber of commerce legal reforms. The u. S. Chamber represents the interests of more than three million businesses of all sizes and sectors as well as local chambers and associations. Its institute for legal reform is a division of the chamber that promotes Civil Justice reform at the global, national, state and local levels. Thank you for the opportunity to. The chamber has been involved in robocalling issues for years an offers the perspective of the American Business community which values reliable and trustworthy ways to communicate with customers and the public. That is a highly regulated space with lots of litigation, something the chamber has been vocal about for years because pcpa remains a major source of class action litigation that does little to help consumers. The chamber today would like the committee to consider these points. American businesses support cracking down on illegal and intrusive robocalls. American businesses work hard to comply with these very complex regulations at the federal and state level. They are hurt by caller i. D. Spoofing and fraud against consumers. Because of those harrs companies are fighting back against robocall scams. Marriott did its own investigation into calls misusing its brand. It worked with the Traceback Group and sued malicious robocallers getting an injunction against the Marking Company that placed these calls. U. S. Businesses take law seriously and work hard to comply with it. Second, congress has passed major legislation recently on a bipartisan basis to address Illegal Robocalls. You can ensure your hard work bears fruit by encouraging the department of justice to make robocall scams and illegal spoofing a priority. The federal Communications Commission has taken major steps to implement all of this new congressional direction. I know f. C. C. Staff has been working really hard on these issues. Theyve issued enormous forfeiture orders against bad actors that blatantly break the law and its cease and desist orders have been particularly impact. The federal trade commission has been targeting scams using Illegal Robocalls and texts, and state attorneys general have been tblairng own cases. D. O. J. Is a vital partner here and congress should urge the department to make enforce. A priority by acting on the referrals and by bringing its own cases gregly for violations of laws like this truth in caller i. D. Act but also mail and wire fraud for some of these really egregious scams. Third, unfortunately, the tcpas right of private action continue to fuel a abusive litigation against American Businesses. The institute for legal reform has tracked Lawsuit Abuse for years and the operating environment under the tcpoa continues to hurt businesses and consumers. Class action seeking enormous damages and attorney generals fees and the threat of crushing liability for mistakes creates a challenging environment for American Businesses. An important takeaway here is that the tcpa class actions and large settlements do not address the bad actors that are intentionally violating federal law to send millions of illegal calls. Here i have in mind people like adrian abram vich, john stiller, or the Shell Companies they use to make massive numbers of fraudulent calls. Often pretending to be legitimate American Businesses. Fourth, the chamber knows that some on this committee are considering additional legislation. Congress has been active on robocalling over the past several years and the chamber suggests that if the Committee Goes forward with legislation it should also consider modest but important changes that would limb the abuse of our judicial system for class actions that do not stop bad actors in. Sum the chamber appreciates the committees attention to these issues as well as the hard work to the f. C. C. And other panelists here to go after bad actors that steal corporate good will and harm consumers. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Sen. Lujan thank you for your testimony. The floor is yours. I am the executive director of the industry Traceback Group. I serve at the broadband association. U. S. Telecom established the i. T. C. To i. T. G. To address the robocall problem. We are proud to support the f. C. C. , f. T. C. , d. O. J. , state attorneys general and others to stop Illegal Robocalls. Im pleased to be here today to discuss the collective effort and how congress can bolster it. As i explained in my written testimony, various tech in logical and economic changes have made it cheap and easy for bad oklahoma tors actors to call American Consumers from anywhere in the world. All anyone needs to initiate robocalls is a computer, associated software and a website. In the past, providers had no way to know the true origin of the calls. Industry tracebook addressed that by piecing together the entire path of any given suspicious call regardless of the number of providers involved. We obtain within a day or two the same information that would take enforce. Agencies months to get. And virtually all the data we get makes its way to those enforcement agencies. Thanks to inch t. G. Data, federal and state agencies are bringing more Enforcement Actions than ever before and these efforts are working. For example, on data from my colleagues at umail show robocalls have dropped 50 from their peak in 2019. After state Enforcement Actions based on traceback, the billions of auto warranty robocalls plaguing american last year have dropped to almost zero. Even absent any affirmative action tracebacks disrupt Illegal Robocalls in real time. Nearly 85 result in originating providerrers warning or firing its customer. As the industry fighting Illegal Robocalls, so do their instigators. Scammers are now making more targeted lie calls sometimes combined with communications through other channels. Scammers know precisely who they are calling as they convincingly pretend to be your bank, for example. Also the decline in scam robocalls has been supplanted by a substantial rise in unwanted telemarketing robocalls. These are the ones your constituents are most likely to receive today. A consumer may sign up on a job listing website but misthe fine print linking to a second page with hundreds ors how to of marketing partners. That each now purportedly have the consumers consent for robocalls. Even worse, itg suggests the already flimsy claims of consent can be falsified by bots condition senting on behalf of consumers. While we make it harder to send spoof calls to consumers, now robocallers cycle through numbers. This is meant to evade safeguards. Calls from new numbers are far more likely to be treated as spam as a result. I provide several steps in my written testimony to further empower the industry and government efforts to stop Illegal Robocalls but i want to emphasize a few today. First congress should ensure that d. O. J. Prioritizes prosecuting the criminals mind unlawful robocalls. Second, to address problematic number rotation, congress should formally expand the role of the Traceback Consortium to investigate how they get those numbers. Congress should pass the traceback enhancement act which senators thune and marquis introduced last congress to protect consumers. Thank you again for the opportunity to speak. We look forward to continuing to collaborate with the subcommittee and federal and state partners to solve the illegal robocall problem. Thank you for your testimony today as well. Mr. Rudolph, youre recognized for five minutes. The floor is yours. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today regarding robocalls, ro bo techs robo texts, and phishing and smishino introduce some new terms. Im c. E. O. At youmail. It protects individuals from harmful calls and texts. We publish the robocall index. We provide blocking, analysis, audit and Investigative Services to communication providers, enterprises, investment firms and Government Agencies. Prior to youmail i worked with many fortune 500 Companies Helping mitigate risk through automated controls and policies to comply with things like the Sarbanes Oxley act and implement performing background checks and preemployment screening. I see similar patterns and needs emerging in communication. Robocall mitigation control. The balance the levers of risk and revenue communication providers who control those livers. Im honored to work with talented youmail team on the front lieps of investigation, disruption and enforcement. Our team is small given the demands to monitor tens of thousands of monthly and weekly active messaging and voice campaigns targeting consumers. We prioritize targeted success here is well chronicled, working with states, particularly attorneys general offices, federal agencies and private industries, resulting in 90 to 100 reduction when we target specific Robocall Campaigns. I thank and commend those partners who made the identify case of those campaigns top priority for their fraud, cyber or legal teams. Without their collaboration, its significantly harder to escalate a Robocall Campaign from simply being unwanted and deceptive, up to unlawful and illegal so we can take action. When the f. T. C. Identified specific campaigns as poison pills for industry i observed many providers previously uncertain about how to treat those calls suddenly decide with Decisive Action how to stop them. We can credit 2022 as the year unwanted auto warrant washty calls were stopped. However now we have home warranty, debt reduction, government grants, loan and insurance calls taking their place. Ro bo operators feverishly evolved their tactics in this cat and mouse game. Some embrace new techniques and tactics like generative a. I. , shifting from spoofing of numbers to using real numbers and have adopted strategies that minimize the evidence they leave behind which is necessary for Companies Like ours and the i. T. G. And f. T. C. To ultimately stop these bad actors. Similar to t. S. A. Guardians stop people in our skies, are they checked every time they make a call like every time travelers fly . We have stopped over a quarter trillion robocalls, about 1,000 per american adult. Weve take on a bite out of several of the most prolific robocall operations responsible for these few billion calls. Its not just a sheer volume game as every Robocall Campaign is different. Were now in an era where theres fewer but more advanced calls. Theres no shortage of work to do if were going to continue to make progress. I look forward to your questions. Thank you so much for being with us today. Im going to recognize myself for five minutes for questions. As you all can see on the image behind me there are multiple examples of scammers impersonating companies to trick consumers and steal their information. These are real messages collected by my staff. But the leads were changed, we dont encourage people to go to them as. We this is a problem for so Many Industries from delivery services, to Financial Institutions to Government Agencies. I very much appreciate the groups walking in now. I dont want to detract if the questions that i have. But you all know what robocalls are and ro bo texts are, ive seen a lot of heads nodding yes. Im sure youre tired of them and want them to end. Thats what this hearing is about. So if you raul have ideas as well, we would invite them to be submitted to us. The trip that youre on, we may be leaning out to you to solicit that information with whats happening to each and every one of you. Now ms. Brown, yes or no, does the prevalence of text and calls impersonating u. S. Companies negatively affect thible of your Member Companies to reach and build relationships with consumers . Your microphone. Got it, sorry. I dont know that it lends itself to a clean yes or no. The chamber is concerned about business impersonation fraud and the texts you see but i think i dont know that we have seen a noticeable harm to the overall business relationship with our customers. Like its a part of the package and i think our the Chamber Members do a good job of keeping those relationship but it is a worry. The brandy leution and for instance the marriott case i mentioned earlier, it is a concern that, you know, the brands will be diluted by this kind of fraud. Ill share with you, there are some companies that when they call my phone now, i wont answer because ive been hit by robocalls from them. There are some companies where theyve been 13506ed before but its not time and time again. But im less likely to answer them or very cautious as well. Thats my may haver. I dont know if thats consistent with others across the room. When i was asking i saw a lot of heads nodding yes. We want to make sure there is that trust to be established with form of communication. My followup, i want to talk about the impact on consumers specifically. Can you show how messages and calls defraud customers and limit access to goods and services . We have an example of an elderly woman in virginia who answered a prerecorded call purporting to be from the Social Security administration that it had found drugs in car associated with her and if she didnt pay a certain amount of money to do a certain take a certain number of step she is would lose her Social Security. As a result she actually ended up losing hundreds of thousands of dollars of savings. I have many more examples, i dont know how much time you want me to take with them. But a lot of them are written up in our scam reports on our website. What i may do, if we can get that report, well have that submitted into the record. That is part of the record nor particular hearing. Thank you so very much. One of the recommendations in your report supports clarify kaigs of consent for safe calls. Early this year, senator markey worked on some other issues, but senator markey and i also led a leader to the f. C. C. Chairwoman asking to update guidance along the lines of the f. T. C. Reinstating longheld requirements for unwanted telemarketing calls. You also cited evidence that consumer consent for telemarketing is increasingly falsified. Automated botz and other Artificial Intelligence systems are using public data to condition sent on behalf of consumer for calls they never asked for or do not want. How can industry, f. C. C. And f. T. C. Update guidance and develop standards to limit the use of automated botz to falsify consent for robocalls . Thank you, chair lujan. I think on this issue, i think the courts that guidance out there are clear already. You need an actual consumers consent. If its falsified, its not consent. I think those are clear. If theres any ambiguity im happy to work with you and your staff on removing that ambiguity. I appreciate that very much. Ms. Fisher, the floor is yours for questions. Thank you, chairman lujan. To begin with id like to ask unanimous consent that a statement from senator thune and letter from a. C. A. International and the Credit Union National association be made part of the hearing record. Without objection. Thank you. I agree with the chairman that this committees focus on enforcement today is key. First and foremost, i think we need to ensure that our laws and rules that are on the books are being enforced to the fullest extent. Since 2020, the f. C. C. Has issued 700 million forfeiture orders for pcpa violations. However, hardly any of these have been collected, mostly due to the Justice Departments failure to pursue these cases in court. In its obligations under the trace act, the d. O. J. Also seems to have missed the opportunity to submit a report with meaningful recommendations. Ms. Brown, do you believe that the Justice Department is doing enough to ensure that bad actors carrying out illegal telemarketing and robocall schemes pay the penalties that the f. C. C. Assesses . Thank you for the question. In my written testimony we explain, no, i dont believe the department of justice is doing enough. You can sense that frustration from the f. C. C. Chairwoman. They certainly at the department have a lot of tools that they can use both to enforce f. C. C. Orders, but on their own to bring mail fraud and wire fraud cases to enforce the laws you have passed. We believe the United States department of justice should do more. As a former justice official i believe its a missed funt for opportunity for them. What can we as congress do to ensure they enforce those rules. They have the tools, how do we get them to use them . One challenge is, its hard for congress to direct the department of justice to take specific action. Due to separation of powers. But you have a lot of power to nudge, cajole and shape expectations. In my written testimony we offer a few examples. You imposed robust reporting obligations on the federal Communications Commission. You could impose those kinds of update mandates on d. O. J. To let you all know what theyre doing. We also suggest they can have funds, and you can direct that. We also suggest a robocall enforcement and education office. Right now at the department i think much of their robocall effort is housed under an elder justice initiative. Thats important obviously but they can do more. I think congress can really look into that and impress upon them that this is a priority. To me this focus on enforcement really is twopronged. We wan to make sure that the government is going after the bad actors and we want to avoid opening up legitimate actors to frivolous lawsuits. Abusive litigation does nothing to stop criminals. Would you provide examples of tcpa filings you view as litigation abuse . Certainly, thank you. Unfortunately there are a lot. I commend to anyones attention the work that the Chambers Institute for legal reform has done. Theyve had several reports that give examples. One example that stuck out to me recently, the city of albuquerque was sued after sending Text Messages to local residents during the covid19 pandemic to notify them of the opportunity to participate in socially distanced town halls. Ultimately, senator, i believe the city was able to get out of that lawsuit but not after some litigation. Thats just one example of many that seems to go after beneficial communications or at least not bad actors that i think were here mostly to talk about. We have many members on this committee who represent very rural states. Theres a lot of vastness in our states. And we want to make sure that Rural Americans receive services. Governmental services but also services from private industry and many of Rural America is still connected with copper lines. And they are vulnerable when we look at these fraudulent schemes out there. Mr. Berthew, what are what remains for these copperbased network in stopping Illegal Robocalls and telemarketing schemes and does this lack of fiber that we see in rural areas, does that have an outsized effort on most of our rural constituents that we have . Thank you. I think there are challenges. I know the industry is very committed to moving to i. T. And that work is ongoing. Yes, when information cant be passed to the Legacy Networks but what i would say is the protections in place are helping all consumers. When we trace back calls, those calls are hitting people in new york but in Rural America as well. When we get them off the network, thats helping everyone. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator markey, youre recognized for questions. Thank you, mr. Chairman. In 2019 i was happy to partner with senator thune to pass the telephone robocall abuse act, which direct the federal communications to have new rules to crack down on are bo calls. The trace act helped stop some of the worst practices by robocalls but they remain a plague on our telephone system. My constituents in massachusetts received over 623 million robocalls last year. Nearly 20 per second. This year massachusetts residents are on pace to receive 800 million robocalls. Across the country, americans are on pace to receive 54 billion robocalls this year. Some robocalls are lawful. But of course the numbers of unlawful calls are astonishing. Each of the witnesses, starting with ms. Saunders, do you agree that robocalls remain a serious problem for consumers . Yes or no . Yes. Ms. Brown . Unlawful and Illegal Robocalls certainly do. Yes, Illegal Robocalls remain a problem. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. These fraudulent robocalls cost consumers tens of billions of dollars every year and undermine trust in the telephone system that is a serious problem period. I want to turn to one particular element of the trace act. The law directing the f. C. C. To require the telephone providers adopt a standard to verify that caller i. D. Information was accurate. Senator thune and i drafted this provision to stop bad actors from falsifying caller i. D. Information, a practice known as spoofing. Robocallers often spoof calls to make the caller i. D. Indicate that a call is coming from a local number. Im pleased the f. C. C. Worked expeditiously to implement this provision. Im also equally alarm by the sheer number of fraudulent robocalls and scams. Robocallers seem to be chaining their methods faster than we can adjust. Ms. Saunders do, you agree the trace act has been helpful in reducing the number of spoof calls, but that robocallers have found ways to circumvent these rules . Yes, sir, i do. And mr. Rudolph, do you agree . Absolutely. I know we see less spoof numbers than ever before, we see the threat actors, especially those impersonating banks, getting real phone numbers and jumping when a bank brampleg closes down, grabbing that number and using it to contact people. Its unbelievable. Targeting robocallers like an endless game of whackamole. So far the moles are winning by an astonishing margin in this battle. If the robocallers have evade the caller i. D. System by exploiting how phone numbers are distributed, then we may need to adapt our regulations as well. I want to say one final word. About the f. C. C. s robocall mitt imaition database. Every telephone providers must register with the database at the federal Communications Commission. Companies that have not yet implemented the caller i. D. Verification system must submit a plan for addressing Illegal Robocalls. Last week, the f. C. C. Took an important step to begin removing 20 noncompliant companies from the robocall mitigation database. Some of the companies filings were laughable. Heres one. Heres one of the filings right here. Pretty simple to see. Its a blank piece of paper. Thats what they have submitted. In terms of their compliance. With the law. Another filing was a picture of the companys logo. Another provider submitted a document that said nothing in capital letters on the sheet. On the website. Nothing. Im glad the f. C. C. Has launched enforcement proceedings against these obviously problematic actors. I appreciate the ideas ms. Saunders suggested for further strengthening the robocall mitigation database. I look forward to continuing to work with the commission and my colleagues on this issue. It goes right to the heart of the issue that just drives every american crazy every single day. The unwanted robocalls coming into their lives all day long at the most inconvenient times, almost knowing that your home and youre having din we are your family to be the perfect time to get the whole family angry at these companies. So we thank you, mr. Chairman, for having this hearing and we just have to keep our focus on this issue. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you very much. Especially bringing attention to the filings at the end of your testimony today. Im reminded that some of those filings also include menus from restaurants. Being submitted as official documents as well. Thank you very much. Im bringing more and more on bringing more and more attention to the enforce. Side. Senator budd. Thank you, chairman. I thank you to the witnesses for being here today. You know, when i talked to folks from North Carolina, they asked me about this topic a lot. They talk about robocalls. They express their frustration. They dont want to download the app that helps screen these things or pay a few extra dollars for that. So theyre frustrated. They want solutions. When i was in the u. S. House a year ago i was proud to be an original cosponsor of the trace act which i think is making a difference. According to youmail scam robocall volumes have declined about 55 since the peak in october pof 20 ing on of 2019. Tools like the industry daysback group and deployed authentication technologies like stirshaken, seem to be working. I think we all still agree that theres still a lot of work to do. In your written testimony you knowed that quote, government and brand and posture calls predominantly originate a broad. These are scams where someone claims to be calling from the i. R. S. Regarding back taxes or from the local power company. These scams are particularly dangerous because they pretend to be communication from important institutions like Government Agencies, utilities or from banks. In your working with the industry Traceback Group have you identified gaps in federal efforts to prevent scam robocalls that make going after foreign callers difficult . Thank you. Yes. It is difficult. Because they feel theyre not going to face justice because theyre not based here. They do Shell Companies. They get kicked off the network and find a new one. Absolutely weve been effective in disrupting them. Weve seen some of the impact, especially on the robocall side. If theres a scam volume is way down. But its one of the reasons i agree with my colleague here, megan, that criminal enforcement against these individuals, these groups, organized crime abroad doing them is absolutely critical. Thats the only way theyre going to stop trying to defraud americans is if theyre taken off the board. You mentioned the enforce. Agencies. What could spof them do to improve the stopping these foreign placed robocalls . Again i think criminal enforcement is key. When the few years ago when the department of justice, f. B. I. , worked with the Central Bureau of intelligence in india to raid some of these call cent es, impersonation scams went down almost overnight. That is key. Its working with partners abroad and bringing them to justice i think is key. In your testimony you discussed how the department of justice does not sufficiently were going to leave this as the u. S. House gavels back in. Jt noon tomorrow. Jt the speaker pro tempore without objection. And for what purpose does the gentleman from arkansas rise . Mr. Hill mr. Speaker, i move the house do now adjourn. The speaker pro tempore the question is on the motion to adjourn. Those in favor say aye. Those opposed, no. The ayes have it, the motion is adopted, accordingly, the house the house adjourning for the night after republicans spent most of the day behind closed doors trying to determine a nominee for speaker. The g. O. P. Will meet at 8 00 p. M. Eastern to vote by secret ballot between byron donalds, chuck fleishchmann, mike johnson and Roger Williams of texas. The house set to gavel back in tomorrow at noon eastern with live coverage. Here on cspan. How would these Small Businesses benefit from enforcement of existing laws . I think theyd benefit in the same way consumers would if they are being victimized and they dont have the resources to deploy sophisticated antifraud, then sending that message to take some of these bad actors off the board would be helpful to them in much the same way consumers are being defrauded. Anyone els on helping Small Businesses . Id like to commend your attorney general, North Carolina is one of the top leads for the robocall enforcement at the state level. I would say that Small Businesses, we have data that shows some threat actors understand that theyve got deeper pockets, as opposed, than the targeted victims so were seeing a rise in robocalls and ro bo texts trying to hit Small Business owners and convince them, you know, to engage in their campaigns. Thank you. My time has expired. Thank you, senator. Senator tester, youre up next. Sen. Tester i want to thank you for holding this hearing, i appreciate it very much. I want to thank the folks testifying today. Weve got murders, child molesters, rapists, drug peddlers, people who commit Armed Robbery and then people who and then weve got robocallers. Ok. It distresses me a lot when i hear theres 700 million of fines that have been levied and no collections. Ms. Brown, were you you were with department of justice . I was with main justice at the department of justice. Good enough. I know the u. S. Attorney in montana is very, very busy running down people who are doing horrific crimes. By the way, i could make a claim that this is nearly as horrific as any of the ones i listed before. Why . Ive got a business. I was on top of a combine, i get a call, i am expecting a call from my wife, i get off the combine, i nearly bust my leg. Its a guy calling if ive paid my loan from school. I went to cool decades ago and didnt have a loan them. The point is d. O. J. Levied fines and havent collected them. Theres an effort in this body to defend the department of justice. Do they have enough people . I know at main justice, after the lot of priorities, they have a lot of people. I think they can probably walk and chew gum at the same time and prioritize a few more of these cases. I would love it. We can pass all the laws we want, we can take credit for passing the laws. Unless somebody drops the hammer on these clowns, makes them pay the price, puts them in jail, and id pay more taxes to put these people in jail, i think its going to continue to happen. Its going to happen when i was in the state legislature, 20 years ago, we passed the do not call list. Ive signed up for multiple do not call lists and i get more robocalls today than i did back in 2003, for example. 20 years ago. So the question is, is does Congress Need to do anymore . Or is this all about enforcement . Ms. Saunders, ill let you go. My main point in the testimony i submitted is the incentives need to be changed, whatever way its done. I understand if you hit somebody in the wallet that hurts. Right, right. What weve proposed, is that the f. C. C. Adopt a methodology such as is permitted under the federal rules of civil procedure to get a temporary they have not done that yet . No. So that once a particular Voice Service provider is found to be a repeat offenders, continue to pros process illegal calls, after its been notified previously, the f. C. C. Should b, immediately, its ability to do the rest of the people on the panel agree with that perspective . I havent reviewed closely ms. Saunders proposal but i dont think we need new shorts to authorities to do those suspensions. Do you think the suspensions would be snoak. On the voice side im not sure if there could be unintended consequences but they could do more with cease and desist orders. When were talking about fraud one of the themes is does the fraud actors change their behavior . They move from robocalls to more targeted calls. The tools we built for robocalls dont work as well for live calls. Theres a big difference from i let someone on my network make i very seldom get live calls. I get a call from a computer that sounds like a live person that then if i stay on long enough goes to a live person who i asked why dont they get a real job because theres plenty of jobs out there instead of being crook. Why is there a difference here . That would be a prerecorded call. I still think enforcement against the fraudsters is really the key there. Because theyre going to keep adapting as the rules and the protections change doesnt mean we shouldnt keep adding more protebses. They will always keep working to try to get around them. I got it. Thats what a crook does. They look for the and by the way these are crooks. They look for the weakest link in the fence. So i came to this hearing hoping that i would hear from some of you, and i did hear from ms. Saunders here, what we can do to stop, not slow down, weve been slowing down forever. But to stop these folks. Anybody have anything that congress can do to stop them . Or i havent asked you a question yet, mr. Rudolph. You received a lone robocall. Taxes, loan robocalls. Its the same voice. The same computer. The same call. Sometimes calling from my neighbors phone by the way. So i dont know if thats illegal now or not. I had a neighbor who got a call from his own phone number one time. This is crazy. Crazy stuff that this country doesnt need in their economy. Is your loan robocall i suggest thats domestic originated and thats an area i would call gray area telemarketing. In this case right now we dont have we track thousands of active campaigns for weeks and turn enforce. Efforts are working on the highest volume prioritized campaigns. Your specific robocall, if you can get your state or you can get the f. C. C. To put this on the priority list thats one that weve got the tools and techniques to use but theres not enough manpower to have a priority list that goes more than 10, 15 campaigns deep. Start working 50, 100 campaigns deep on a weektoweek basis the f. C. C. Has showed effectively the highest volume campaigns can be stopped. Just for the record if any of you know how many are done out of state versus in countyout of country, i would love to know that. Thank you all. This is a bunch of crap, ill just tell you. We need to stop this. This is not good for anybody. And for the robocallers out there, go get a damn job. Thank you very much, senator tester. Senator . Thank you, mr. Chairman. I agree with senator tester. My questions are going to take up largely in the same vein. The thing i struggle with reviewing materials that my staff prepared for me for this hearing, just obviously experiencing this particular problem as a human being, my own mom just a couple of weeks ago called me and gai me the quick hint of a particular scam thats been targeted at her. It seems like we keep on tinkering around the edges here a little bit. We do these little things. Maybe they slow it down. Senator testers point. Were fundamentally allowing crooks to prey on some of the most Vulnerable People in our country. People living on fixed incomes and so forth. I guess im just wondering, if we were willing to do something big. One of the few things you could get bipartisan majorities in this house, this chamber, to do. If we were to do something really big here what could stop this . The example that we talked about, i was talking about earlier, just with a friend, is, you know, you ban robocallers from calling a particular number. But then lets say and individual goes and signs up on something online and they dont read the 75 pages of fine fingerprint. Fin print. One of fine print. One of those signs them up to robocalls and that opens up the flood gates that allows criminals to go after them. What can we actually do to stop this thing . I want to pick up where senator tester left off. Thank you, senator, for the question. I think one of the challenges here is the phone system by its nature is a series of interconnected networks. Providers that are providing service to us, all they know is, like your mailman would know, whats the address . Where is this going . They dont know whats inside the content. Thats fundamental challenge. We trace back the illegal call, we hit five, six, seven, eight providers but it mixes with legal traffic as well. Thats where, i think what is big is criminal enforcement. Its the theme im going to keep hitting here. Because if even if we stopped every single robocall, does the criminals who do this, their day job is still defrauding americans. Theyll find a new version. The only way to get them to stop defrauding americans is criminal enforcement. How many of these people are in america versus overseas . In our experience, it varies a little bit basedden the type of call. The pure fraud robocalls, voice phishing calls, etc. Those are predominantly from overseas. The unsolicited telemarketing call mace originate here and be done by people here. But to what megan said before, we one of the reasons its hard to collect fines against them is they pop up a new Shell Company to dissolve the old one and are now doing robocalls awrn new name. I think theres some laws that might apply and make that criminal. Where are they coming from, the ones overseas . Any particular areas . You sort of hear about eastern europe, nigeria, where are they coming from . A lot from india. Some from dominican republic. Some other countries as well. But india is a big portion of the calls. Has there been any effort to diplomatically, legally, to interface with some of the countries where the fraud is most common and use the extrynary leverage the United States has to bring some of these folks to justice . Or is there sort of an attitude like, its small ball things relative to other International Crimes so we dont focus on it, though its not small ball to people affected by it . Theres been collaboration. We work with the bureau of intelligence in india and raid the call centers, we see the impact. Impostor scams dropped immediately after the raids. I think thats a testament to why we should keep prioritizing that because it does work. One final question. Were going to an Artificial Intelligence briefing with some Industry Leaders late they are afternoon. What could we do to help a. I. Platforms and social Media Companies shield their data or tools from being used for more elaborate family emergency scams and things like that . Happy to work with you on that. Im not sure how what exactly we could do on the social media side. One thing ill say the tcpa right now makes Illegal Robocalls to cell phones and robocalls are making the calls with a prerecorded or artificial voice. I think theres just one thing there i do believe applies. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. A lot of questions here. Ill go fast. First of all. We know that after the trade acn 2019. After new f. C. C. Rules were in place they can number of scam robocalls declined by almost half. Now were having all kinds of new issues. You noted in your testimony that we that there is collaboration between your company and the f. C. C. How can we make sure this results in actual enforce action . I think what weve seen the f. C. C. s approach with this the cease and desist, i think has been highly effective. They targeted campaigns and those dropped off the face of the earth. I think were making great progress. I think the more we do, some of the rules the f. C. C. Did about know your providers, i think its a process. Other time thats going to keep going the right direction. I think weve done a lot of great work there. Ms. Saunders, why do you think particularly the telemarketing calls that these volumes are so high . I was just look, weve got so many people, 221 million numbers registered on the do not call list. And still were seeing a number of people call about violations. What solution should we prioritize here . First let me say that i believe the number of scam calls that have appeared to be reduced because theres been a reorganization or recategorization of many of those calls. Many of the calls that had previously been identified as scams, have now been identified as telemarketing calls. Most of the telemarketing calls originate in the United States. We think that what needs to be done is the f. C. C. Should adopt a quick acting temporary restraining order type of methodology and once a Voice Service provider is found to have repeatedly, after notice, processed scam or telemarketing calls, they should be suspended immediately from the robocall mitigation database. Thatll cost them that will be n incentive to be more careful. Senator advance vance and one of his sons and get a call and scraped his voice and asking for money that they delivered to and two other military families told me this in minnesota. This is unbelievable, what are service providers, what are they doing to get ahead of these robocalls. These are targeted ones with the persons voice and all kinds of things could happen and what could we do to mitigate this . The voicers are protecting their customers and looking at the greater tech molg and they have annual littics running on their networks and they will try to find out how to identify those scams and take action. Trace back is an important part of Going Forward as well. Targeted attack and based on the investigations that we have done so far and similar attacks. Those are sh a personal phone number just like anybody going into a store to get a device. They are hard for our communication provider. And customer making the phone call. Im using an example and it could get worst into the voice turns into a robocall. Last thing, robotexts and 12 billion spasm texts to americans. I think i got half of them. And these texts include links that include malware and spyware on a consumers advice and what other measures should they consider to go after these illegal robo texts . We have recommended that it adopt special security rules for robo texts that include u. R. L. s because of the significant damage. Congress could also pass regulations or statutes that provided more protection for consumers once they had money stolen from their bank accounts. That would be a big help as well. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator welch, you are recognized. Thank you very much and hearing the incredible frustration. Senator vance, senator tester driving our constituents. In vermont, a small state, 3. 5 million robocalls just last month. Six calls per vermonter and really unsettling especially to older people they may be getting a call from a grandchild and have to pick it up and figure out whats going on. And i know you are trying to do stuff that is not working the way it needs to. I joined senator lieu han how hahn and senator markey to align its registry guidelines with the f. T. C. And prohibit tell marketers from calling consumers without explicit consent. Do you believe these actions would benefit consumers . And what additional steps in Congress Take to push the f. C. C. And protect consumers from robocalls . We have been pushing the f. C. C. For months now to reiterate that the language in its current regulations means what it says. And instead the f. C. C. Proposed regulations that would reduce protections from the current regulations and we have been very afraid of this. Senator welch why are they doing . Im not sure there is a misunderstanding and the buyers and sellers have gotten to them, frankly. The proposed regulation or anything like it is very dangerous. The f. C. C. Issued regulations 20 years ago are explicitly requiring that every telemarketing call if the consumer has provided a signed written consent allowing that caller to make calls to that consumer. And the proposed regulations would allow more calls per consent and not require a writing. And so i cant tell you why they are issued or proposed. If you can encourage not to proceed in this way, it would be beneficial. Senator welch a question to mr. Rudolph. As generous as a. I. And it could push back on the scammers but its a school that has been abused by scammers and generating a familiar voice. Can you tell me how the evolving landscape for a. I. Impact the efforts to combat and protect consumers. Robocall operations that refuse the call of vermont. And constituents and benefit from your attorney generals work in that regard. On the topic of generative a. I. , threat actors have flocked to it. Allows one person to look at hundreds. And doesnt have ethics about what its doing as far as social engineering. And defending against what is going on. And mitigation plan. Generative a. I. Can rip through the robocall mitigation and synthesize and understand if they are lacking sufficient controls. That is a great place to apply that technology and discard the data base in an afternoon of work. I think the f. C. C. Has done a good job and the problem is not the particular technology, its the fact that there is this whole method of robocalls to use borrowed numbers, rotating numbers, as mr. Rudolph explained for a minute or a particular call and the ability of robo callers to use the numbing resources or misuse them in this way undermines the whole purpose. I think it is time for the f. C. C. To drill down on the number of resources misuse. Senator welch i yield back. Senator hicken blooper. What a fascinating issue and look at the issues around the world and seems relatively small and talk to constituents in our states, this is top of mind and drives people baty and they cant function. They may be browsing a website and signing on to a consent tomorrow receive robocalls. I cant imagine how anyone anyone would intentionally do that. I guess they must. Any way, the f. T. C. Has launched investigations into Companies Behaving this way and my question to you is do you believe that a stronger cybersecurity practice or clearer online disclosures would be sufficient and be successful protections for consumers that dont want to get the call . No, sir. I do not. Disclosures are uniformly ineffective at protecting consumers. I think the problem needs to be that the rules need to be sufficiently clear that the sellers who are using the telemarketers make this calls and benefiting from these calls will be much more careful which callers they employ to make the calls. If they are not careful it will be distincted with a class action. And i understand the with inappropriate class actions and the danger of class actions is also one of the prime ways that incentivizees sellers and callers toll comply with the law. We want the law to be clear and the law to create those incentives to comply with it. I would ask you and this is my staff will chime me later and seems there is a market there and seems so frustrated a low monthly cost, lots of people would buy protection. Generative a. I. Have the potential to protect people from these kinds of scammers . Going back to the question you just asked, i want to reenforce the rowo call operator who could use millions of numbers to contact you. If you think what we can think about a device and easy to block an individual number. That one number and if a bot granted it or you intentionally and you could control caller organization nighted from that number and revoke that consent and change how we change our policies about when you got an entity and how many numbers that try to rotate through to evade these tools you dont need a. I. But a number you pin Global Communications to use a number as they communicate that with you. Great. Ms. Brown, in your testimony, you described how businesses use automated messages to restart customers. When these bad actors flood an individual with robocalls, people lose in answering the phone. The best example i have my phone, if i were to call you, it doesnt give my number because for whatever right or wrong reason sometimes rarely a constituent or journalist want to get a hold of me. So i have caller i. D. Blocked. I have to send someone a text because they think that is always going to be a robocall. Small businesses are victimized by fraud leapt and illegal calls that ms. Saunders is talking about. So i think the steps congress has taken to try and clean up the ecosystem and is real important to try to instill or protect confidence in the calling ecosystem. Small businesses both make calls and receive calls and if there can be trust that who is calling you who it purports to be and not an overseas scammer. Small businesses are irate because they have to take every call and they are distracted. Any way, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. Senator rosen, you are recognized. Senator rosen, we cannot hear you right now. Can you hear me now . Thank you. Technology is great when it works and sometimes technology is not so great when it gets you a million calls all at once. Thank you everybody for being here today and im going to get right into it. According to the f. T. C. In 2022, nevada had the third highest rate of fraud and fifth highest rate of identity theft. Millions of americans and many of my constituents fall victims to these callers. They have elaborate schemes and Government Agencies or other entities and taking advantage of these people and taking their information. And so, for example, mason, one of my constituents from las vegas, veteran of the us air force and shared about a scam call he received from a benefits line and asked him [indiscernible] he was receiving 10 to 15 calls a day. Mason recognized the scam. Many others dont and veterans who serve our country should not be targeted with these kinds of calling. It is unacceptable. We have to do more to protect our constituents. So ms. Saunders, what advice do you give to everyone in more vulnerable communities like seniors and veterans who are targeted and impacted . We have one clear piece of advice to give all americans subscribers until this problem has been solved. If you receive a call from anybody, unless you are absolutely positive you know the person that has called you, do not give access to your bank account or any other money to that caller. If you receive a call from somebody purporting to be from the Veterans Administration and make sure your benefits are protected. Hang up and look up the number for the Veterans Administration and whom ever it is and call them directly. But dont give and we dont do that. Even when we receive solicitation from a charity we believe in, we dont give over the phone payment information. Thats great advice and have to keep putting it out there over and over again soy people continue to hear this message. Can you tell us about how companies are working together to ensure that people are aware of these scams . We have to get it out there and keep reminding people, scams like this. What are you doing your advocacy reaches every state, urban and rural . Thank you for the question. The industry is very active and customers have information out there. But one of the things is all Voice Service providers have protections in place, too. And all the major carriers have blocking and labeling and there is a lot of work to protect their customers as well. And speaking about customers and work force creating all these ways to protect consumers, work force and technology is so important as a former Computer Programmer i understand what the challenges. In this case, it allows for more sophisticated of global texts and on the same side, we have enough resources to combat that. Law enforcement officers need access in training and technology to talk about the more advanced scam and a. I. Starts to play a scam. Based on your experience, what kind of technology and training to bolster these resources that these scams get more and more vicious. And fr identify these scam attempts that my panel iforts were discussing and if you have constituents and may not be getting with that kind of information and support. Rchg is talking about a. I. And using it differently. The chair woman were so proposing and notice of inquiry of how Artificial Intelligence impacts robocalls and texts and this would investigate how the commission might use a. I. Technology to protect consumers. Now, you know, specializes in stopping scam calls and texts. How do you envision using Artificial Intelligence to protect consumers from robocalls and robotexts . Great question. The joke that we are going to enter and each of us will be protected by our own bo tmp that will screen every communication and these bots talking to and having tore run that. But that joke aside. One of the suggestions i had earlier was to use a large model and toss out all the once that are junk. So to synthesize that data and understand the intent and what that filing if even feasible. Discuss the policies or controls as implemented and quickly process that data and come to and we are facing a promise stealing enforcement labor and thats a great place to deploy that technology. I appreciate that response and bringing attention to the line of questioning from senator markey around how so many are thumbing their nose at the requirement that the mitigation plan and submitting documents that are intended or use whatever nonsense. It shows shah it is not working and loophole somewhere that has been created and no attention to the prosecution side, if you will, or the requirements from a mitigation plan and using tools to identify where those are that are important to ensure we are able to enforce the mitigation plan when someone is doing this illegal activity. I appreciate, ms. Soppedders, your response about what could be done in the area of where traffic is being carried. Data that i have seen suggests that not all carriers may be knowingly doing this. But it seems to be there is a smaller number of carriers that carry more of the calls. Thats revenue. If someone is told, you are carrying these calls that are stealing billions of dollars and do it over and over and submitting a document, it is the cost of doing business. I want to equate this toll Financial Institutions in america that are caught laundering money for cartels and the cost of doing business is paying a fine. Smart people created these loopholes, well intentioned but there are loopholes and people have learned to take advantage of them. I would hope that we can agree to the ending of those low pressure holes. I remark on this this Commerce Committee had a hearing on rail derailment. Well intentioned legislation and testimony and people working together but when the rulemaking gets started, there is stuff submitted into the federal registry and they get codified into the rules creating loopholes. It can create problems well intentioned as they may be. I hope we can peel back the curtain on this to stop this. With the transition to telecommunications being digital, not analog, you can trace the stuff back. Mr. Rudolph, you can stop it, because you know where its coming from. Digital. You can follow it. Why is it so hard . If the traffic is in a small area, lets work with them either to create the technical capabilities for the small carriers to have those capabilities or for the whole industry and say you are the problem and you need to stop this because if a small carrier has an agreement with the major career and i look at 12 of the traffic that is coming from the bigger names in the country, stop it and im hoping we can get there. Ill close with this particular question. Now we know there is an urgent need to mitigate risk and establish guardrails around a. I. And seen many examples. Scammers are cloning childrens voices and veterans or active military, voices that are being spoofed all to steal Financial Resources from families. Do current laws and regulations cover these type of a. I. Generated scam calls . The Telephone Consumer Protection Act has been covered to cover telemarketing calls. Would anyone else respond to that . The view is well suited to adapt to that new technology and commend to you a report that the chamber put out. They have an a. I. Commission and there is a lot to learn that the chair woman of the f. C. C. Of how this will play out. But it reaches some of these voice clone concerns. I concur. I think anybody who is doing voicer cloning doesnt care about it and committing criminal acts and they would ignore it. Its effective against telemarketing calls but not against scam calls. The reason to stop the scam calls is the providers who are providing access to the Communications Network for those scammers. And we dont have a law that applies to the Voice Service providers nor are we necessarily recommending there be one. I appreciate that. Im concerned that it does not. It handles one format but concerned in the other space as well. When it was written, this technology did not exist to the extent it exists today. One of the false pieces of legislation, when it spot up and passes, technology has accelerated a generation or two what the proposal was as well. But thats what the rulemaking bodies are supposed to keep with what has happened here. If something is happening, ask for help. How do we stop the nonsense. pt billion stolen in a year. That should bring the prosecutors attention. If the department of justice isnt going to do this, how do you work with the f. C. C. That a fine is put forward and no prosecution, then what . I will also say if theres a small number of entities that are responsible for the majority of traffic and been warped about it and continues, something needs to be done there. Its the cost of business and revenue and make 100 billion and pay a 10 million fine, thats not right. Do you have some thoughts on what congress could be doing to protect americans . Ill ask the rest of the panel and close out the hearing. I think i have articulated already. I think the f. C. C. Is uniquely poised to be the prime policeman on the block regarding service providers. What i explain the terminating providers that these calls should not be processed, the reason they cant block them is because the scam calls are mixed with the legal calls and impossible for the terminating providers to identify them. Im a former public utility commissioner. While the calls may be mixed in, they can tell where the calls are originating and if the investigators are doing their job. You are bearing this traffic from mr. John in whatever location whether it is the United States or other part of the world, why are you carrying all this traffic . Im not sure that the terminating calls can determine where the calls are originating. All they see the calls are coming from the upexteme intermediate provider. The key is to encourage all of the providers in the network to carry legal calls or else it will cost them. And we provided in our testimony the example of how the legal callers can use their place in the marketplace to encourage their providers to only carry their calls and thats isolate the illegal calls and would eliminate the terminating callers to block them. How are you able to follow the calls then how do you know where they are coming from . Thats what our traceback accomplishes and our process does that. We go hop by hop by hop and find out where the call came from. We have a portal that all the we do it in the portal. And if someone they get shamed and get warnings. The provider downstream gets shamed if they continue to take traffic from robocalls and all this information repeat that. What happens if they take calls . The way we designed our system, providers upstream is the originator of the Illegal Robocalls. The downstream provider knows that and put on notice that upstream is giving them back traffic and all this information makes its way to the enforcement community. Whatever the agreement is between one carrier and another, your Technology Allows for those two entities to know there is a problem with these fraudulent calls . We see all them taking action. The challenges because it is intrlg connected. I heard from providers, we have too much bad traffic and fired all of them. It was another hop or two that were added in between. Mr. Rudolph, with that being sad we are traffic can be identified, you know this to stop hitting from a consumer and protect people, are you able to identify where it originates . As calls reach the consumer, we have two very amazing ways to understand which communication providers were the originators for those tracebacks and if it has a packet with it clear as day these are the seven voice providers that are harboring that account and making the call as identifying the v. A. If you ask me right now who are the providers, we can look at that and get a look at that and trace back. What we are missing is the industry, those specific calls are bad knock those off. F. C. C. Have done that twice. And providers have a clear signal dont carry those. This company is committing fraud and knock it off. And goes and finds a new home. Until they are notified, dont take this account on, and someone will think thats revenue and take that new account on and look the other way what that account. What process is required that the ecosystem the one fraudulent calls and the one communication to the company . What would be required to share that information that you may be having with one carrier and say this call is fraudulent and probably kick it off so it goes across the entire ecosystem. We go through the prioritized calls that are on that hot list of investigations and well provide that in those discussions and saying those is the provider. You want me to address a. I. In the space of a. I. And also given the responses associated with being able to narrow where there may be a fraudulent call with a carrier. Is there something that can be done to share it within the ecosystem and the companies can share it and f. C. C. Can do it with assisting authorities that this is going to happen and proven there is a fraudulent call. Im optimistic and the chamber would be that a. I. Will juice up what [indiscernible] that gives me optimism those antifraud efforts is going to get better over time. The f. C. C. Work shop heard about that as well. And that is my response on the a. I. Piece of this or the a. I. Approach. It sounded that the f. C. C. Its involved in getting this information. And its a question of scale to address the issue that you were raising. Again, maybe a a. I. And additional technology. I dont have visibility if it is phone calls or enforcement which makes me sad for the enforcement staff. But there is a reason to be cautiously optimistic and crack the he had code. And f. C. C. Do more in what it did, i think the report the has some remarkable data in it about the decrease in calls after they took those calls. Im optimistic. I dont see the need for new regulatory authorities to be given because it feels that process is working fairly well are even if it is owe pack. Thank you for being here today for attending today. This is important testimony and as you all know immense interest with the american umh people frustration with the American People about what happens and every minute of every day as well. And i want to commend you for helming us to solve this challenge for helping consumers one at a time on for providing support to help the process i understand where and what is happening every day looking at the ability that exist examines and exploring those that may be needed. So thank you very much and remaining challenge and very complex issue. With that, i will close the hearing. Should members have additional questions for the witnesses, submit them to the ky within two weeks. Witnesses will have an additional two weeks to respond. Thank you everybody. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2023] captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org. Wins night at 11 00 eastern, President Biden and first lady host a state dinner to honor australian prime minister. Watch guest arrivals and dinner toasts and more at 11 00 eastern cspan or online at cspan. Org. Krarch span washington journal toll discuss issues in government, politics