Transcripts For CSPAN Former 20240703

100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach thos who need it most. Charter communications supports cspan as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. Next, a forum on the middle east where participants discussed irans government, the tactics and ideology of the iranian regime, islamic radicalism and the need for u. S. And western allies to take the threat of iran seriously. This is 30 minutes. Of iran seriously. This is 30 minutes. Hello, and good evening. Welcome to the latest of the middle east forum. My name is jonathan and i am director of research at the forum. This evening we are very lucky to have catherine perezshakdam to speak to us. She is the cofounder and director of Forward Strategy and research at the american for event studies. She is an expert in the middle east and played an Important Role in shaping policy decisions regarding yemens war. And she is best known for infiltrating the Islamic Republic of iran in reaching the regimes highest with a finance ma in finance. Im going to ask her to speak to us for 15 minutes, and then we will have time and she has agreed to take questions and anthers answers. The floor is yours. Catherine im very glad to speak at the middle east forum, it is the privilege. I would like to discuss iran and what i believe has been, so far, a failure on the part of the western capital when it comes to handling the threat out of the republic of iran. As you mentioned, infiltrated a few years back, the regime. It took me about 10 years, and throughout these 10 years i have come to know quite closely the regime, the way of its narrative and its desire to not only infiltrate countries and expand its ideologies because the one thing i want is something that all politicians have missed, is that the Islamic Republic ideology is not limited to iran. Their aim, however foolish it may sound to people, is actually towards intimidation. I know how it sounds, very difficult for rational people to comprehend that some ideologues in iran have these ambitions to force the rest of the world their way of thinking, there worldview and the leadership of iran and leave under the model that is somewhat similar to the Islamic Republic. If you look at the history, since 1917 on, iran has managed to infiltrate and break several things. Obviously beirut, lebanon, damascus, syria, yemen and iraq and baghdad. We know that to be true and there are acts of resistance. Where i think we missed the mark is that every time iran had infiltrated countries, they have operated in the same fashion. So you have a different iteration of how they go about doing things because obviously every country has its own idiosyncrasies. They have their own demographic when it comes to religious minorities and where they sit on the political spectrum, but every single time iran has participated in the boarding of the fraud. The fault lines within those particular countries and they exploited those faultlines, understanding the political and social makeup, playing to try to infiltrate themselves, to try to create crisis that they would then find a solution for. A lot of the time, positioning themselves against western powers by blaming a lot of the problems that those sigler problems were on western capital to formulate this notion that islam is at war with the west. That the west is the enemy. When i say the west, obviously one of the main enemy is israel. Weiss is important is that today, we felt, and i think it is still true today, and i think its on all part, and the danger that we are under is that all western capitals are next in line for it for infiltration. You can see this quite clearly in all the past four years, all the many ways that iran has committed acts of terror through proxy or directly. You can see this with the iraq of the iranian lemat, which was accused and convicted of an act of terror, and who is now following the law of by the state of iran, a lot of threats have not been freed and allowed to return to iran to continue to test continue his prison sentence but was actually made free. So the way that it was was to simply apply immense pressure on belgium and to force belgium to concede to its wishes. This is insane to think that it could happen, but it has happened systematically time and time again. You see this with you see it with the burning of the koran. Iran its very likely that iran orchestrated the burning of the iran of the koran for acting against its northern communities and islam in general. And iran is actually forcing suite m to violate its free speech and freedom of religion by forcing it to ban the burning of the koran. This is not mean making an apology for what i believe is an act of violence and stupidity, but its forcing us to reinvent and reframe all democratic principles. And those are against our National Sovereignty, i believe, and this has been done every time to the point that we feel like there is a threat, we understand that there is a problem, but we dont have the moral standing to draw a line and decide that standing. But iran knows exactly who we are, what we do, how we operate in our desire to not military intervene against iran. They know we all have a stomach for war anymore after afghanistan and iraq and that it can push the envelope further and further away without our western capital being able to draw a line in the sand and make a stand on this line and say, we will not concede any more. We will act against you and hold you accountable for the crimes you have committed. Not only against our people, National Sovereignty and democracy principles, but of the people. We have to understand something that is very important. Everything that iran is saying, when i say a ron, i talk the regime. Acting as a protector of the palestinians and acting in the benefit, and acting in savior for religious minority is not true. In the best way to see this is the way that iran is actually conducting itself against its own minority within its borders. When you see that iran was happy to slaughter palestinians in iraq when it could. When you can see how many jews and christians have been oppressed by virtue of their religious differences within the borders of iran. When you see the way the kurds have been systematically discouraged against. Beirut bordering iran. And yet we continue to believe that we can somewhat appease and contain the ambitions of the Islamic Republic and when i say we, im talking about the western capital. We have been sold the idea and the notion that we could come against the promise of a return to the International Community that iran could be welcome back in again against the nuclear program. And we have seen that it has failed. In every single time iran represents itself as a victim saying that israel was the enemy, america was the enemy, and the regime has conducted a dual language where it is being very belligerent, very aggressive and rhetorical on the public scene, also social media, on television, in the news, in the media, attacking us, threatening us with war, saying we will always attack. We can attack tel aviv in the western capital. In all officials in response to that threat, very serious threat, have continued to believe and sell the idea that we can contain, iran is not a threat, the acts of the war that its talking about, that this is just for show and for the media, it is not for the media. If you look at the way lebanon has been turned into a void, its a failed state. Has bella is running the show. People have suffered, institutions are not viable. You should see the way iraq is suffering and not able to have its own laws thats imposed on government officials, and they do not apply with tyrone that could be put to death. When you see that yemen is undergoing the biggest humanitarian crisis in its history and potentially in all modern history in terms of the famine, diseases and deaths, that they continue to perpetuate, something needs to change. In my mind, where would we miss the mark is that we have failed to understand and study the ideology of the regime. The many outposts that they have flaunted in the u. K. , in france, in germany, in sweden, in the u. S. , and it goes on and on. I will finish with this. The fact that we know today that they have more and more capacity. Its capacity has become a threat. You know is i do that the second iran can control the world we will have a crisis. If you look at the way that russia has conducted itself with ukraine in the western capitals into compliance to the point where it felt bored enough to invade ukraine, we went through a crisis. So using this same stress that we havent learned anything at all. Iran today could attack the strait of hormuz. A few days ago and said it wanted iran wanted to control the panama canal. We know today that they will try to bring around several capitals in latin america to each ideology. The notion that america was a problem. So this is not just a regional problem that is limited to the region. This is a problem that has been exported south of americas border. Thats potentially in a couple of years going to become a problem for america, but america has fooled itself thinking it could contain and it failed to appreciate the real threat that they represented, not just for the region, but it on itself. I dont like to be dramatic, but ive seen i have spoken to them and explain what is it that they wanted. Everything that they have said was going to happen has happened. And its quite a lot. Specifically in regards to the threat of the jewish diaspora in the mapping out that we know today is true. For a long time. We know this to be true. So experts are coming forward and warning of the dangers, i think it would be fair for state officials in the u. S. And across the eu at the u. K. To actually Pay Attention and understand that unless they formulate a Clear Strategy and draw a line in the sand and stand by it, we are at war. We have not brought anything to defend ourselves, our people and democracy. Churchill said it better than i could. Democracy is a very fine balance. Unless we do something today, im afraid in a couple of years we will remember and wont recognize who we are anymore. Quex a number of questions have come in, the first one i will read out to you is from leonard, and he says its very good, so how do we push back short of military conflict or is military conflict inevitable . Catherine its a very good question. Im not an advocate of war because several things need to happen before. But the one thing i would say is we need to do two things. Number one, we must understand we have Regional Policy in the middle east that could help. Saudi arabia, israel, georgia, iraq. Many countries understand today, syria, understand the Islamic Republic has become a problem. When i talk about syria, im not talking about the regime of syria. People in countries want to get from under the Islamic Republic. They have lived under the shadow for decades. They have lived it, they have seen their country being transformed into failed states, and they dont want it anymore. The problem i feel is that we have failed to stand by the allowances that we have in the region and we have abandoned a lot. This is a failure on our part because you can see how saudi arabia is shifting towards china and russia for the reason that its not that russia and china were friendlier, its that we have failed to stand by the Security Threat of solidarity. Faced with isolation, saudi arabia decided to do what was best for saudi arabia, which was to find elsewhere, the promise of a friendship that would be committed to its defense because america failed, because the u. K. Field, because the eu failed to fill that gap. We could also sanction im talking about real sanctions, im not talking about the sanction of leaving the window open so that iran could continue and find ways and means to bypass sanctions. Im talking about hardcore sanctions that would be applied all the time and people held accountable should have them. Im talking about mapping this out so that we would understand exactly how far these infiltration, that we know is happening right now in the western capital, has gone on. Who is responsible, exactly what area, was at ngos ora media. How far it goes. We need to have an investment, we need to identify to be able to devise strategy. I dont have one answer, but what i would say is this. To stand by the democratic principles, stand in solidarity with iranians at home when they are telling us they want to get rid of the regime. To find ways within the region to apply a solution that would enable people in iran to free themselves in a regime and find a solution that would work for them. Im not talking about military interventionism. Im not talking about exporting our version of democracy, im talking about empowering a people to decide what the future would look like for them and accompany them in this journey. Now tell them what to do. When we do this, when we listen to people who are living under the threat of the Islamic Republic, then we will be able to protect ourselves. And i think thats the best way forward. First we have to recognize that iran is an enemy, and we have to have stronger sanctions and make sure they apply all the time systematically. Jonathan another question, the regime is rooted in islamic ideology. This seems to be the natural place to start, naming to debunk islamism, which he suggested no one could possibly know whether god talk to mohammed. And thats exactly what we in the west are avoiding. This is a rational and he asks why do we avoid debunking islamism as such . Catherine i really glad this person assess. Iran has been clever at playing with principals. The idea that we want to exercise in a free religion and give people free speech. We want to make sure that they want an individual within their community thats respected. And we know that for the past 22, 30 years, the word islamophobia has become a thing that has been utilized as a weapon against people who have criticism. What other people wanted to discuss the issue of islamism and that is a reality. Not in communities in the west. Those people have been add the dialogue ends there. People are being attacked and labeled. They have to retreat. The attack on people, they are quite quick to judge. They are for they preferred to appease because in a Society Today where offending someone is a crime. People have every right to defund this. I dont think we should stop criticizing and debating such an idea on the basis that we mightve found someone. I think it is quite healthy and people need to learn how to get over it. In the case of islamism, because his lummis ideologues have been quite violent when they disagree with certain criticism or when they are accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity, there is a lot of cowardice that has taken place in taken root. People have been sorry to lose their Political Base should they actually stand and say that there is an issue within islam, not as a religion, but that it has been infiltrated by agents who are utilizing islam and turning it into weapon. That has nothing to do with islamic principles. The problem is, people tend to say you cannot talk about it because you are labeling them. No. We are talking about a very small minority. The problem is, this minority is getting so much ground that they are defining the weight people see themselves as muslim. The way they practice it and operate within the world. They feel that they exist in a position to western society. You can see this in france, you can see this in germany and we dont know what to do because we have failed to identify i would say, create the right words in the right narrative in terms of making clear islam is not the same as islamism. Thus the one thing to advocate for free speech. Its another to actually advocate for genocide. Its another to advocate for the oppression of women on the basis of that if all laws, if people come into the country and all laws do not stand in alignment within the belief system, its and i know this is hard for people to agree to, but you cant expect all western democracy to reinvent themselves on the basis that a few people at our minority wishes to change everything in their tradition, who we are, where we come from, our history on the basis of agreeing what they run away with to come here to the west and shadow reinvented. That is something that is wrong and maybe those people have an agenda. Again, im not teaching immigrants, have suffered tremendously from islamic radicalism, and i would say that our duty in the way we exercise and demonstrate freedom of reason is actually standing on behalf of those people, those communities who want to be freely and who have suffered the most by the hands of radicals. And this is something that we need to call on our fed officials to stand for and talk about and stop running away. I would say a bit of our fortitude would be welcomed and we need to stop being scared of everything. We need to say things the way they are and of people have an issue with that or get offended, thats the risk that we take. Jonathan this next question is a good way to followup, talking about the need for courage. There are your own personal story and experiences from andrew and hes an International Lawyer and we asked of what you say is true, why hasnt iran assassinated you . Catherine im not iranian. Again, there is a very clear way of operating. Iranians are in the line of fire more than anyone else. That doesnt mean im not on the list somewhere. It doesnt mean that if i was to travel to other countries i wouldnt begin now. It happens all the time. It happened with the caller from princeton, university. He was kidnapped conducting a study. She was subjected by a topsecret working for iran on the basis of jewish and israeli. It is very possible. Also, i dont mean to be offensive, but its a little bit silly that just assumed that because im still breathing and standing that everything that i say might not be true. You need people to actually go there on the fields and witnessed certain things. Millions of people not millions of people but millions of people have done what i done. Maybe not in the same way but when you have iranians speaking up and speaking out against the regime and putting everything on the line, some of them are left alive and thankfully so. If the regime was killing everyone, that would be a problem. Im not saying they are trying to but what im saying is some people might break through and for whatever reason they decide to not target everyone, even the u. K. I believe that we have a very happy and Intelligent Services and our authority are capable of protecting its citizens. Several people in the u. K. , also on the list somewhere, they are still breathing and they continue to be on the Islamic Republic. We need to nurture. We need to give the platform, in my case, its not a question of kurds. Its more a matter of witnessing the people of the Islamic Republic. I want to emphasize on the word evil, and the people grasp just how nefarious the ideology that it projects is. I cannot just witness it and do nothing about it, so i did what i could, which wasnt much. Thank you thankfully im still breathing. Last question jonathan last question, hes also in a rainy and. The past 44 years all the fed has consistently reverberated less intensity by many quarters that there has been no will to pay the price for standing up to iran. Do you believe that western leaders dont understand the problem or do they simply not wish to commit . Catherine there are several things to this, and this is just my understanding of the situation and people may disagree. I do believe that, number one, there has been a misunderstanding at i think it stems from the fact that we had a very particular strategy when it cames came to dealing with they argue with this, but more or less in terms of avoiding nuclear confrontation. So we try to replicate this with the Islamic Republic, not understanding that the Islamic Republic is a very different beast altogether. Its ideology is getting exports in the way of russian weapons so that russia understood it had limitations. The Islamic Republic doesnt, but it wants to invade everybody and everything. You have the position to acquiesce and stand against it. Also, i do believe that, more over the past decade, normalization with the state of israel has become a reality. Even though the u. S. Has pushed for it. I know what im saying might be counterintuitive, but i think there is a realization that things should only happen on a mobile scale with the middle east. The middle east might not need america. If you look at the resources in the way that the region has fallen and whats been engaged on, regardless of the Islamic Republic, its pretty positive. I do believe that the desire to somewhat maintain a certain threat over the region so that america would still be the go to in terms of protection. The region would not emancipate further and then become more of a challenger to americas authority with its domination of the world market. I think there is a little bit of this it became a powerhouse. Its putting israel into the mix of this and suddenly become an ally and work together. The region would be unstoppable, in a very positive way. I hope it happens. I think the region needs to emancipate, quite simply. Jonathan we are coming towards the end. I do want to leave one more question, which is quite a specific one. Why should western navies cover the flow of experts in the persian exports in the gulf . He has given conversation about the fleet in the northern coast. Catherine he would have to do it in accordance with the other countries who do govern the region. Of course is international waters, but you can make an argument for that. But you would have to have a discussion with kuwait, the uae, iraq, saudi arabia and make sure they are all in agreement. This is the thing about respecting the countrys National Sovereignty, you have to speak to them, you cant just date. I think we have lost a lot of credibility in terms of our desire to standby. It is one thing to want to own trust. Its another to say to saudi arabia, let is use your water and police that stretch of water. We wont you wont really lift a finger. Again, you have to treat People Fairly and on equal footing, not as subjects. I think if you were to change the way we talk to people and engage with them, whatever we sk you for that. It has been a very fascinating discussion, rather short unfortunately. If it were up to me, i would carry on for another half an hour. Thank you very much for a ring to take part. Obviously an issue of huge importance here in the middle east. We try to deal week after week issues and discussions on a similar level. We hope to hear much more from you in the future and next to everyone for tuning in today. Here is a look at what is coming up on cspan. Next, President Biden awarding the medal of honor to a vietnam war veteran who flew a helicopter under fire to rescue fellow soldiers. Then, a discussion of press freedom in the United States and around the world. 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