Transcripts For CSPAN Washington 20240704

A. M. Eastern. Catch washington today. The cspan any time. Tell your Smart Speaker play cspan radio. Cspan, powered cable. Powered by cable. Kelly cindy kelly is with us. For the last segments, we will dive deeper into Robert Oppenheimer and the history of the Manhattan Project. We will get to your organization, but for the film, are you surprised a film about Robert Oppenheimer has become this Big Box Office draw in the United States . Guest this was my hope. I saw what happened with World War Ii History when Steven Spielberg came out with saving private ryan. Before that there was a World War Ii Commission trying to raise money for this big monument on the mall and they were getting nowhere. That film came out and galvanize the american audience. It taught them of history in a dramatic way that they had not heard before. They raise that money, not only did they raise all of the money for the monument, but money for keeping it maintained for posterity. It was a game changer. Books came out and so forth. We have needed a book a movie like that for the Manhattan Project. I have been working on this for 25 years. There have been great books, the making of the atomic bomb in 1987 and american prometheus on which the book is based, which, in 2005. Dozens of others, incredible, good books. But nothing that has been a blockbuster. Host you have been working on this for 25 years was gets us to your organization, the atomic heritage foundation, are the founder and what is its mission . Host guest knowing guest i have been in the federal government before i began. It was unrelated, working for the Environmental Protection agency and then cleaning up the weapons complex. While working for doe, the agency for the Manhattan Project, they were going to tear down all the remaining buildings that were put up to work on the Manhattan Project on laboratory property. He said why should we . I was able to get a small federal agency, the Advisory Council for Historic Preservation to get into it. They brought their Advisory Team out and said these are monumental. They were overgrown garages. Small buildings put up as they could be for building these bombs. Host if you see the film, you see these seemingly temporary but huge villages and comp boxes created in world war ii. But what was the Manhattan Project and why was it started . Guest it was started in desperation. The International Community of physicists, most of whom had gone to School Together basically in germany, oppenheimer was a classmate of his german rival, heisenberg. They knew each other. As soon as the discovery of the ability to flip this adam of uranium happened in late 1938. All of the physicists in germany , germany, japan, england, france. The United States. They began racing to make an atomic bomb. They knew potentially since the 1920s that this could happen. It was a race against hitlers germany. Hitlers started world war i 1939. It happened in late 1938 and early 1939. It was a race. Unfortunately, the United States got going slowly. Host wife . Guest one person said it is like swimming in molasses, bureaucracy. They appointed someone who was very senior, which was a good thing except that he was kind of old. This was a young mans game. These people were all in their 20s and 30s. It was not the right appointment. This had to be done quickly and by the right people. They actually in effect from a lot of refugees from hitlers europe who came to work in the laboratories with the british. Host you mentioned it was a race between the u. S. , the allies and the nazis to get the bomb. There is a scene in the film where i believe the actor playing oppenheimer says the nazis will be slow because hitlers and im paraphrasing leaves that physics is a jewish science. Was that true . Host it was absolutely true. And it was much to our benefit. We had at least 100 jewish refugees, top scientists, Nobel Laureates who worked on the Manhattan Project with us. Because they were refugees from hitlers germany, austria, the nazi company. Italy. His prejudices against jewish people, the scientists who were on the forefront of this, was much to the benefit of the allies. Host how does oppenheimer come into this group of scientists and why was he chosen to lead the Manhattan Project echo project . Guest he was an unlikely choice. People were advising the general , whom they should select. None of them had oppenheimer on their list. Unlike many of the other possibilities, he had not won a nobel prize. He also had not managed anything. Some people thought he cant manage a hamburger shop. He had graduate students and he had to run classes, but that was it. Thirdly, he had associations with people who were communist party members, his wife for example had been a member of the comets party. His brother, his girlfriend. So while he was not in self, he had leftist sympathies and there were grounds for suspicion. Host why did the general, portrayed by matt damon in the film, why did he have this confidence in oppenheimer . He seemed to be his choice matter what. Host he absolutely was. No one guest he absolute was. He knew two things, that he was brilliant and he understood what it would take to make a bomb better than the other people he interviewed. Two, he was very ambitious. He had not won a nobel prize. This was his avenue to fame. And like groves, who had been passed over to go into the field, to have action in europe, he wanted desperately to make a name for himself. The two of them sought the means to fulfill their own ambitions in each other. Host our guest is the founder and president of the atomic heritage foundation. We welcome your calls and comments as we talk about the Manhattan Project and Robert Oppenheimer, particularly with the release of the new film. 202 7488000 is the mind to call if you are in eastern and central time zones. 202 7488001 mountain and pacific. The film focuses mostly on the activities at los alamos, new mexico. Why was that chosen . Host it was where it happened. It was where the brain trust was , that had the responsibility for designing and testing the bomb and overseeing the science across the complex. He was 5000 people at the end of the war, some say a little more. They thought they could do it with 100 scientists and their families. It was far more complex than they imagined. The other sites were involved in production of the ingredients of the bomb, usually significant. But it was not the same as designing and testing the bomb. Tennessee, for example, had manufactured the first to produce enriched uranium. And inland, so the japanese could not less than from the shore on the west coast, it was hampered along the Columbia River in Eastern Washington where they reduced plutonium and built the first reactors. Host in the terms of the role of oak ridge in enriching uranium, the creation of those uranium pellets is part of the film. We had a very small capacity like a lot of things at the beginning of the war for doing that. So they had to wrap up that production as well in a short period of time. How was that done . Guest trial and error. Had no idea what method was going to work to produce enriched uranium. The general authorized three separate threads. Three huge factories, produced by electro magic electromagnetic separation, based on something designed by lawrence and berkeley. That was one. The other was diffusion, they built a milelong building called bk 25. The third was developed for the navy that was differential and thermal in heat. It was so inefficient it only enriched things from one to 2 and it tore the factory down maybe after the dust immediately after the war. But they were essential together. They took it from type a and gave it to the second plan, enriched it from 2 to 20 and then they took it to the third electromagnetic separation plan and that put it at the level they needed for the bomb. Host of the three original sites for the Manhattan Project, oak ridge, tennessee, the nuclear site in washington and los alamos. Are any of the three still involved in production of Nuclear Weapons . Guest congress in 2018 provided Something Like 46 billion or some number for los alamos to continue making plutonium pits. Theyre taking pits in storage right now and a company in texas and making sure they still work. It is a funny metal. It changes even within five minutes and within 50 years and may have changed quite a bit and may not be reliable. They are just now building factories, if you can believe it, to create new things they are confident will work. There are smaller and can fit in new warheads. It is important. It is a good think the movie came out. Host there something serendipitous watching the effect that he had, he and his brother had property in new mexico well before los alamos was ever used in the Manhattan Project. He happened to know the land. He lived in new york city, but he and his brother owns this property in very rural new mexico. Host thats right. He fell in love with it as a teenager. He had developed dysentery on a Family Vacation in germany before he was supposed to start his first year in college. He was confined to his department in manhattan and driving his mother crazy, and she said can we find someone in your high school to take you for a few months or a year and you can go out into new mexico . That is what he did. He rode horseback and explore the area and fell in love with the land. He says in the movie, i just need physics and new mexico and i will be happy. Host our lines for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones, 202 7488002 including new mexico. 202 7488000 for eastern and central, lets hear from lewis in new york. Caller thank you, ive enjoyed the discussion. I have seen the film and i read a great deal about the Manhattan Project prior. I had a question relating to the way a particular thing is per trade in the film. In the film, when oppenheimer has a security hearing, the general gives testimony and although he praises oppenheimer at the end, he is asked a question by the attorney for the commission, would you approve oppenheimer for clearance today based on the current standards . And groves gives dust he hedges and that eventually says no, based on todays standards, i would not approve oppenheimer for a clearance. Which seemed a remarkable Statement Given his complete confidence in him during the project. I wondered how realistic that was and what you think he really thought by that point of the security hearings in terms of his view of oppenheimer. Thanks for answering. Host glad you got through. Cynthia kelly. Guest that is a tough one. It calls on trying to figure out what was in his mind as well as what happened between 1945 and 1954. What happened was he was the odd man out. He hoped the army would have control, the military would have control. But oppenheimer had pushed for civilian control. Groves was behind building the Hydrogen Bomb and oppenheimer was on the others. So there mustve been friction between the two. Saying that, he was absolutely sure that no man of that oppenheimer could have done the job he did to run the Manhattan Project. I think he was foolish to have tried to answer that question. It was a question that the organization should ask itself, not veritas came. It was an inappropriate question and a trap. There is no right answer. Host lets hear from esther in laguna hills, california. Caller good morning, thank you for taking my call. I have two questions. I read an article in the wall street journal that einstein was somewhat of a mentor to oppenheimer. Which was interesting to me. I wonder how much how involved was einstein in the Manhattan Project . Because of the mentor ship . The second part of my question is i was surprised to hear that there were so many jewish scientists involved in the Manhattan Project. As a result, i wonder if there was pushback against jews after the manhattan after the bomb was developed. As so frequently there is. Being jewish myself i am sensitive to antisemitism. I wonder if there was pushback against jewish people in general because of this influence of jewish scientists. Host thank you for the call. Guest good questions. I think that Christopher Nolan took liberties with einstein. He had him play a bigger role than he actually did. He had oppenheimer ask him to do the calculations as to whether the air would be ignited by the blast. That was not the case. Einstein was visited in long island in august of 1938 to sign a letter to roosevelt, warning him of the german efforts. So he famously gets credit for getting the ball rolling a getting the United States and the president to start this effort. But after that he did not go to los alamos, he did not play a big role. His equation was the fundamental principle of hind the atomic bomb. So his shadow was everywhere. But he was not. After the war, he was at princeton, at the institute for studies that oppenheimer was director of. So he and oppenheimer spent more time after the war when they were together there. But whether jewish scientists and their role in the Manhattan Project were vilified, that is hard to say. I think not particularly because all of the purchase pence were secret. The American Public was not told who was working on the Manhattan Project. They did not even know about the Manhattan Project. And afterward it was still classified information. People did not talk about i worked on the atomic bomb. Especially after it became clear that there was an arms race and people began to question whether we should be building more weapons. There was a movement so to speak. I have not heard that. Host how long did the information about who was involved in the Manhattan Project stay classified . When we first know that it was the that it was Robert Oppenheimer and these other scientists . Guest it wasnt host he was known publicly. Guest , we knew those who were involved except one, whatever he wrote was evidence. It was not a widespread press about it until after the war. It is still hard to figure out who was on it. They did not keep a list of names at los alamos. They had badge photos, like your drivers license id. And numbers. You did not have a name. So people call all the time asking can you tell me what my grandfather did at such insults such and such place. But there are no records. It may be in somebodys back room. Host no one chosen wearing a letter and number, in a circular badge. The first caller mentioned that the hearing in the film, a big part of the film, is the security clearance hearing for Robert Oppenheimer. He loses his security clearance. What was the ramification of oppenheimers loss of his security clearance at the end of that hearing . Guest that meant he no longer had access to classified information. Host did it affect his career at princeton . Guest absolutely, it was the end of his career. He was on 35 advisory committees. He was the go to man. He had the best understanding and he was a philosopher and a thinker. He was thinking about how does the world cope with this . What is the aftermath and what is going to unfold . He was pushing hard for International Control of this. Which was also anathema to the likes of the adc and the military. The air force thought were going to get a ramp up, were going to get more farmers, ballistic missiles. We are going to have a heyday with this. And with the development of the Hydrogen Bomb. Oppenheimer stands would cut them way back. Host i want to play for the audience, the actual words of Robert Oppenheimer from our American History tv collection on washington journal. But lets hear from anthony in miller place, new york. Caller thank you. Oppenheimer ostensibly was the grandfather, him and i signed, of the space race to death and destruction. This is hitlers paradigm come to the future. We are cursed by the nuclear age whereby the space race for power, it emto me that the mankind has an inability to rise to theccion here. The best and the brightest that developed this technology spoke out against it early on and said no, this is not a course we should be taking because you need three hours for this topic because the military industrial of the Nuclear Power, and they were going to build a mach 2 reactor. But the great many of the reactors that exist on our plan today had refueled so they double the weight, yet not an ounce has been taken into the repository as it was required. They said it would be received by 1996 but now it has been deemed unsafe. I understand they are using tracking and injecting a lot of volatile waste byproducts from the nuclear industry. It is in undoing of the genome of our planet. It is a diabolical you cant see it, but radiation is increasing in our environment at a rapid level because of the industrialization and militarization. Host several topics, glad you got through. If you want to respond to anything. Guest im glad raise that question, what about the uses of Nuclear Power or energy apart from weapons . That is a huge subject. One veteran i interviewed said it is too bad you only have one opportunity to introduce yourself. The bomb was the introduction of nuclear energy. People conflate the bomb and its dangers with everything else. Which is unfortunate. It has brought us untold benefits to mankind, from cancer diagnosis and treatment to as he mentioned outer space exploration. To nuclear energy. Industrialbased, 24 7 power that is unlike any other. It is a kopelman trade mix. But we definitely need to have safe, reliable Nuclear Power in the mix. It was harnessing of this energy is the way richard groves likes to think of this. The Manhattan Project was not just making the bomb. Their biggest contribution was harnessing this power for a myriad of uses. Host i thought we would listen to the actual words of Robert Oppenheimer, speaking in 1945. This is from our American History tv collection and we have covered a number of events about oppenheimer over the last 10 years or more. Here he is from 1945. The speed of the development, the active and essential participation of the developer and have no doubt contributed greatly to our awareness and the crisis that faces us, even to accept the response ability of its resolution. But these are contingencies. What is not contention is that we have made a most terrible weapon that has altered abruptly and profoundly the nature of the world. We have made anything that by all standards of the world we grew up in is an evil thing. By so doing, our participation and making it possible to make these things, we have raised again the question of whether science is good for man, if it is good to learn about the world and try to understand and control it, to help gift the world of men increased insight and increased power. Because we are scientists, we must sing essay yes to these questions. It is our commitment seldom made explicit and seldom challenged the knowledge is good in itself. Knowledge and such powers must come with it. Host raising some real concerns and yet saying and unalterable yes to these questions. What did you hear . Guest it was a little hard for me to hear. But he said we are scientists, we have to know. We have to provide to mankind the knowledge of how the world works and how science works and to hardest it to mankinds benefit. That is kind of in our nature. That is the nature of science. It is to discover and try to fathom how best to take these discoveries and apply them in a way that is most beneficial to mankind. Host some of what is portrayed in the movie, the views of oppenheimer, they try to get behind his thinking particularly after the bomb was dropped. Were those reflective of his actual views . Was he torn about the fact that we had to use this weapon . He called it a terrible thing. Guest he did say it was a terrible thing. But he never opposed the use of the bomb. At the time he was on a committee to advise the secretary and the like. He said this is not our expertise. We dont know what is going on in the negotiations between the japanese and the soviets. We dont know what is going on in the mind of them, or truman. We dont know the conversations that happen. We are not in a position to judge. Whether we need this aponn the were not, we should leave that to the military. Our job was to produce it, we are scientists. After the war, many scientists said we need to be more involved in political decisions and how our discoveries are made and used. Host the movie shows a scene between the Group Meeting and the general, the secretary of war is there and they choose not a military target but the finalization is on civilian targets. Nagasaki and hiroshima. Is that truthful . Guest that is not a fair statement. The bomb could not be micro targeted to these facilities. There were Industrial Facilities that were manufacturing military equipment and missions in both cities. There were stations for army and other military personnel. It just happens that the plants were surrounded by civilian residences and homes. And that the bomb created a huge blast and thousands of degrees of temperature created a firestorm. Most of the people were killed by fire. The buildings were knocked down by blasts. Host we are trying to get to as many calls as we can, beth, you own with cindy kelly. You are on the air. Caller thank you. Im calling, i am from a very large family and i had a lot of people in world war ii. My future husband who are married in 1962, his uncle was dr. David lyons, who graduated from the university of missouri. He was part of the Manhattan Project. And he lived in los alamos