Relations and the trump administration. This is 45 minutes. I think our rush to get back to normalcy has caused us to be unproductive in bringing about longterm systemic changes that are actionable, satisfying and causes america to live up to its ideals. Read and we have got the right ideas. We just do not promote them. Hi, i am sally quinn, a third journalist and contributor to the washington post. Today we will discuss the evangelical christians in their vote. We have two great guests. Jakes from dallas, texas. Welcome bishop jakes. Thank you for having me. I want to remind you the last time i interviewed you we were on a tight budget and we did not have a make a person so i had to make you up before the interview. I remember that. I still have the little eup and which is in a box is in a box with my prized possessions. I could have used some today. I want to start out by asking you about three issues that are forefront in all of our minds, racism, coronavirus, and Police Brutality, and all of those are affecting the black community more than anywhere else in this country. I just want you to point out whether you think the White Christians are speaking up enough about this issue. I do not know about enough. I do not know that anybody is speaking up enough about it, but i am pleased to see there is more unification around some of these issues then there has been historically. We have a long ways to go. We are not united on the issues as we should be. People in our country and people of faith in particular avenue a tendency to be no spline. They are not afflicted by where there are what they are accustomed to. More violent now than there has been historically and that is encouraging. Buyinyou talking about among white evangelical christians . Yes, i am. If you look at the people who were protesting there were as many white people out there as blacks and they were all concerned. We did not see that diversity and the 1960s we are seeing today, and that is encouraging. I think white evangelicals are trying to find their voice about this issue. They are uncomfortable. They are afraid of being criticized when you Say Something wrong. No matter what you say it will be criticized by one side or the other, and ministers are trying to figure out how do they engage the conversation and not lose their own constituency. Do you think of some black christians i up on white have given up on White Christians . I think the divide between black christians and White Christians is broader than it has ever been. Whenever faith becomes too politicized, it is to the detriment of both parties. Both sides have been politicized. It created a further goal than dr. King described. That is exacerbated in this current climate. [indiscernible] said and have said you cannot be a good christian and be silent, and yet there are so many, particularly white evangelical christians who have been silent. As you say, a lot of white evangelical christian ministers, and i know this about talking to other people about this issue, they are afraid to speak up. Is that the bottom line for you, that you cannot be a good christian and stay silent . The bible says jesus said the spirit of the lord of god is upon men to preach to the broken hearted, to bind the wounds of the broken hearted. I do not think you can see somebody bleeding and walk across on the other side of the street and state you are christlike. Having said that, i do sympathize or empathize with White Christians who are trying to Say Something and ended up sticking their foot in their mouth. It encourages us to keep talking. There is going to be criticism. You will not get it right the first time. We are having a difficult conversation that is several hundred years old. I would rather you break the silence and Say Something wrong the not say anything at all and act like you do not see the innocent killings of our people, that you do not see we cannot go jogging, you cannot see we are not safe in our own homes or that you do not see george floyd screaming for his dead mother while he dies on the sidewalk. To act oblivious to that is the antithesis that everything that christ stood for. You may struggle to do it, but i think it ought to be done. When you have these conversations, what do they say to you . A lot of it is fear and not knowing how and never addressing it before. A lot of it is the privilege that black people have not enjoyed. Can get a ged without understanding how the White Community works but you can get a phd and not understand how the black community works. That is a luxury that is forcing people to study during the george floyd crisis. People were having to bone up on something they did not know anything about. They do not know anything about juneteenth, anything about rosewood and those of the things that have not been taught in our schools or talked about in nonblack circles. They are finally starting to be talked about today. Division,ke about the 11 00 is therly most segregated hour on sunday. What do you think the difference is between the role of a black pastor and a white pastor today . Huge. Hink it is quite we are expected to do things that why pastors are not expected to do because of the Civil Rights Movement was born out of the church. Our churches have to be more than spiritual institutions. They have to be the hub of the community, engaged in the Public Square being a voice for the voiceless. They have to be so many more things that what why pastors are accustomed to having to do. To be therapists and counselors and other things. Most of our figures throughout history have come out of the pulpit, whereas the White Community has a wide array of heroic figures. Up until president obama the reverend Jesse Jackson or rev. Al sharpton or Frederick Douglass all the way back to those days. They were always clergy. Clergyinition of what it it means to us is somewhat different. I want to quickly interjected this too. Most of us vote around the issues we have been taught are important to our community. We share fidelity with the white evangelicals on conservative ideas and principles, but we do not have the luxury to vote in a myopic way about that, because what we do not share is the concern about the digital divide, lack of housing, lack of pay opportunities, the criminal justice system, black on black crime, the blue on black crime, Police Brutality are not things on the white clergys radar. Finally they are starting to get on that radar. They have not been historically. We cannot vote with a myopic view. We have to look at the totality of the human experience. A lot of what you focus on is Economic Issues with your congregation. Economic, not really. Economic, education, housing opportunity, digital divide, lifestyle issues. Bread and butter issues, issues that affect the went bowling wellbeing of our communities and single mothers fighting for rights who are paid less because they are black and women, and they have become the breadwinners for our families. We have a lot of problems in our community we have to deal with, and it is not all economic. It is social. I do not care how what you are. If blue lights go on find you, your heart races because you were not sure amongst the many Wonderful Police officers we have. The chief of police for the city of dallas, lots of Police Officers go to my church. Few thatiticize the are not doing well and you draw attention to that, then you do not support the blue. Side. Ody has to choose a in reality, you can support a great Police Officers and hold other officers accountable, like we do doctors, pilots, anything else. In this climate we are in right now, we have lost our ability to reason together and to come to compromise and to understand saying one thing does not negate the other. How do you feel about the slogans all lives matter and Blue Lives Matter . [laughter] [laughter] let me respond to it like this. When we have Breast Cancer month, you do not say you did not say anything about alzheimers. Black and brown houses are on fire, and the statement black lives matter does not mean that white lives do not matter, absolutely does not mean that. It does mean that these are the lives disproportionately on fire not only by criminal justice, Police Brutality, but also by the cobit advisors covid virus. It is about education, opportunities, health issues. It covers a whole gamut of things where we have been demoralized. It is about the high rate of deaths of their women when they have children. Here are so many areas in almost every area, it is reinforced that we do not get the same medical care, health care, education. It does make you ask the question do we matter . There anything that the black lives Matter Movement is doing that you think is unwise . Are they getting it wrong or right most of the time . First of all, i think this thee far beyond organization has turned into a movement. The organization is one thing. The movement is something completely different. The slogan has taken on all over the world until u. S. People in europe and africa carrying black lives matter signs. That is not all connected to the organization. I think what has taken place is that many people have bought into the reality that they want to be a part of history that says black lives do matter. I appreciate that. I support that. I endorse the overall concept. I think it has taken on a life of its own. However, i do not think we can win this battle just by protest. At some point, protests have to convert to a change of policies, and i think we are at that point right now. We have to move away and disavow all violence. I think it is a distraction from the overall message we are trying to make, and we need to take our violence and turn it into votes and on every level of government vote for people who get and understand that we are not willing to live with these abnormalities and these ourrepancies in our care, safety, our wellbeing. Anytime you were not safe in your own home, Breonna Taylor lying in her own bed, anytime you cannot go jogging, that is too much to be quiet about. We cannot be quiet about that. What has donald trump done right on the black lives matter issue . What do you think the role is of a president during a time like this . He has not know what done right about the black lives matter issue. I will give credit to the criminal justice strides that have been made. I think they are a step in the right direction. I hope it states follow the federal example because the vast majority of africanamericans are not in federal prison. I think the Opportunity Zone was well intended. We have to work harder to make sure it does what it was intended to do. Avoideds i know, he has supporting black lives matter in any way and i wish that was different. I am no longer looking to the white house to fix this issue. The people on the streets of america, we the people have to rise up and reshape our country and our World Without waiting for this messiah like figure to come in and fix all of the problems that ale america today. You have a foundation and you have a plan. Can you tell us about that . Irted thet jamesd the td foundation. E gave them flowers we did all sorts of things that are wonderful to do. When they cannot afford to live in our cities, that is a problem. He foundation is tackling that we are also tackling the digital by programs for underserved communities. With 5000 students enrolling into our program trying to close the digital divide. Why do black children have been exposed to, they have done well, whether it is basketball, music, preaching. Those things they have been exposed to they have become. They have not been exposed to wall street, silicon valley, the possibilities that people like them could have a place at the table, and the foundation is committed to working that out. Jobs, homes, and housing, and closing the digital divide. This should not be in the hands of the white house anymore. Have you reached out to President Trump at all . Do you have a relationship with President Trump . I have never met him. Let me be clear, i am not absolving him of his responsibility, and there is a lot she could do and there was a lot he has said and done to make it difficult to move ahead in the areas of healing disparities that exist in our community. I am not absolving him from that at all. Even if we do not get the response that we would like to get it from the white house at the level we would like to get it, that does not mean that we can move forward amongst ourselves. Is a recent comment a rightwing by evangelical. He tweeted that jesus was white. Eddie caused a big stir and a bigwere it caused stir and there were all of these portraits of people drawing brown jesus is antiblack jesus is. It is quite clear jesus was not a blueeyed blonde and there has been a lot of columns about that. I am sure you have heard this. What do you think about do you think about his color . I dont think about jesus in terms of color. I think its a juvenile statement to make one way or the other. As a christian, the fact that he died for us and shed his blood for us, it was not about his skin. It was about his blood. Secondly, the bible is very clear about his background and judeahnicity and his stick background is quite clear according to scriptures. This american argument where we see everything in black and white and argue back and forth do it at thes we disregard of what the scriptures are very clear about. When you pray, you dont think of color when you pray to jesus . I dont think color matters. I dont think it matters if you have a car wreck who the emt is. I dont think it matters if you are being operated on, the ethnicity of your doctor. I think its a juvenile conversation but i understand that it comes from a place where complicitas been centere in slavery, jim crow, white supremacy, and i think the pushback from the black community where they want to see a black jesus is not about jesus. Its defiance against the fact that god only cares about white people. To ask you one last question about the coronavirus. Your church,fected people in your congregation, and you said its easier to wear our mask than a ventilator, yet the president , who mocks people who of manyks, large group white evangelical christians who dont believe in Wearing Masks, what is your view on that . Let me tell you about an epic pastor regardless of my color, we are the people who bury the people that you report about, there is numbers to you but bodies to us, we are the ones to answer the phone when their families are screaming, this virus is real, it is serious and dangerous and i dont think that we have handled it appropriately and i dont think we take it seriously enough. I had a week or 13 days where i didnt have a day go by that somebody did not die. One day, i had three people in the same day, so when you deal with those families firsthand and those people who cannot hold the hands of their mothers or their husbands or their loved ones, and sometimes three or four of their family disproportionally affected , black and brown people as well , as white people, its an atrocity for us. Its been very, very painful. It is an atrocity how we handled it. Its been very painful to watch the needless deaths of people when you consider how much attention we paid to 9 11 and , rightfully so with 3000 people , and yet, with 200,000 people dead, we tend to want to ignore it or not discuss it or not bring it to the forefront as if were not a national disaster. Weve had more people to die in this country than any other progressive country in the world. Thats reprehensible. Its embarrassing and its a , disregard for human life. You cannot say that youre an advocate for life in the womb if you dont fight for life after the womb. Unfortunately, that is all the time we have. I wish we could go on but i am so happy to have you join us today. I hope you will come back. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. I did, too. Stay tuned. For all of you who are going to stay with us, i will be back in just a moment with faith and Freedom Coalition founder ralph reed, so stick around. Hi, and welcome back. Our next guest is ralph reed, who is the founder and chairman of the faith and Freedom Coalition and also a bestselling author. Ralph, im so glad to see you again, a fellow georgian. Thank you, sally. Thank you so much for having me. I am from savannah. I had grits for breakfast this morning. Did you . I did not, but i did not know you were from savannah. I did not know how i did not know that, but its nice to have a fellow georgian on the call today. Always. I have read part of your book. And i read a lot god andr book called country, but first, i wanted to ask you one question which is something that many evangelical christians have said that they do believe when god has sent trump to save america. Do you believe that . I dont know. You know, i talked about in the book that there have been some who have said that donald trump is a modern day cyrus or darius, Old Testament figures who delivered and acted as saviors of a sort, certainly in a political sense, and arguably in a spiritual sense for the jewish after the babylonian captivity. As i said in the book, i have not said that. I dont think we really know until the unfolding of history what the real role of a figure is. We did not know, for example, that Ronald Reagan played the kind of historic role that he did in vanquishing the former soviet union and in a victory in the cold war over communism until after he left the president. Issues thats to the give meaning to the soul, of tens of millions of voters, whether its the protection of innocent human life, religious amendment,e first the sanctity of the traditional family, and the defense and support of the state of israel and the jewish people, that donald trump has been a champion, and for that reason, i think he is going to get at least the 81 of the evangelical vote that he got four years ago and probably higher. , its called god and country, but i read that the original title was render to trump. To does that mean they are the same . No, not at all. It was a play on the very historic conversation that jesus had with the pharisees where they brought him a coin and asked him whether or not it was lawful for jews to pay taxes to caesar. Of course, they were under the brutal occupation and the subjugation of the roman empire. And jesus very famously replied, render to god the things that and render to caesar the things that are caesars. And i argue, not just in the book but i argued throughout my career, as i have worked within the Christian Community to encourage people to be effective citizens, that effectively, sally, we carry two passports. One passport is for the kingdom of heaven, which is both here today and yet to come fully, and with that citizenship comes certain responsibilities and obligations and duties, including caring for the poor, worshiping with other believers, tithing and giving to ministry in reading the bible and praying regularly, and then we also have , an earthly citizenship, and i think in the american context, that passport and that citizenship requires that we be educated and informed, register to vote, vote in large numbers, and contact our elected officials on the issues and values that we care about. Thathat was really what working title was meant to convey. Do you see trump as a defender of the faith . Well i see jesus christ as the lord, savior, and defender today. I see donald trump as the president of the united states. Hes a friend and somebody i had the privilege and honor to getting to know personally long before he became president and i think he is somebody who made certain commitments, not just to the Faith Community but to the American People, that he has kept with regard to being a champion for life, being a defender of religious freedom and our rights under the First Amendment to share our faith and to practice our faith, free from persecution and harassment , especially by the government. And he promised to be a friend of the state of israel, and he has been so. So, he has kept his word, not just to us but for the American People on what we consider to be moral issues. And in that sense, i think hes a champion of those issues, but i dont see him beyond that Public Policy and political context. That, as i said is something i , leave to the good lord and to the verdict of history. I thinkain issues that there are a lot of people who really dont understand why christian evangelicals are so engaged and so favorable toward trump when often he does not necessarily embody what one can think of as christian values, and you talk about the issues that really matter which are the courts, abortion, israel, religious freedom, you mentioned twice. Obviously freedom of religion is in the First Amendment but also freedom and of speech and hes referred many times to journalists as enemies of the people, which is hard to imagine if he were a defender of the First Amendment i wonder if you can explain that and also to explain why the evangelical christians are so vehement in their support of israel. Well, theres a lot there. Ill tackle the second one first. I think that christians believe that jews have suffered historical and invidious persecution, really throughout history, but in the last hundred years, weve witnessed various witnessed the pogroms of czarist russia and we witnessed , the holocaust under nazi we witnessed the antisemitic regime of the soviet union. I think evangelicals believe as a matter of their faith and reading of scripture that god gave the land that is roughly analogous to the modern state of israel to the jews, both as with historic homeland jerusalem as its capital and also as a refuge, given the fact that they have actually not been saved in most of the rest of the world. They needed to have a place where they could be, where they could be safe, and where they could raise their families and practice their faith free from fear of death and persecution and harassment. And so, the Christian Community has always been a strong supporter of israel. I can remember as a child , awing up in a church churchgoing family. I can still remember us going to , a movieiding place produced by the billy graham evangelistic association, telling the story of the family of holland who protected and hid jews during the holocaust, and ultimately, they were sent to concentration camps, and members of the family died in nazi concentration camps because they defended the jews and i can remember my mother and a methodist bible study, reading the letters from prison, so from a very early age, for me, i associated my own christian andh with the defense of later the state of israel. By moving themp, u. S. Embassy from tel aviv to jerusalem, by recognizing israeli sovereignty over the golan heights, and making clear that jewish neighborhoods in do dance and area, what we refer to in diplomatic language as the west bank, is not does not violate international law, and the most recent peace treaties he has helped usher in with bahrain and uae and others, all helps to protect israel. With regards to the First Amendment, the other part of your question, i dont think theres anything new about a rhetorically adversarial relationship between president and the press, and in fact, under his predecessor, reporters were surveilled, and there have been cases where reporters were jailed for refusing to disclose their sources under prior administrations. And i think that while donald trump has a back and forth with the media that can be rhetorically very adversarial, i do not believe for one minute that he does not value the role that the press plays under our constitutional system. I think hes just calling them to be referees that calls calls and strikes rather than wearing the uniform of the other team. You know, when we talk about those four issues, theres also two issues that you do not mention. Theof them recent, coronavirus, which is recent, race relations, which is not recent, but has become a major issue in the last several months. How do the evangelical christian how does the Christian Community respond to the president s reaction to both the relations . And race race relations, in terms of race relations, speaking just for my organization, we believe that black lives do matter. We believe that all black lives matter. So first of all, we do not favor anyone being discriminated against or being treated as a secondclass citizen because of the color of their skin or their ethnic background. Second of all, we believe that the current regime of abortion is a form of africanamerican genocide because even though blacks represent roughly one out of every 10 americans, they represent one out of every two abortions, and we point to the eugenic and racist philosophy that margaret sanger, the founder of planned parenthood, we havet the time, and called on planned parenthood to repudiate that racist heritage. We dont think there is any way around the fact that in looking at a racially just society, if you have half a million or more africanamericans losing their lives before they are even born, that is an issue of justice. On the issue of education reform, charters and choice, we believe that far too many minority americans are living in schools that could have been designed by the ku klux klan, where they cannot learn, where they are not safe, and where they are not going to have the requisite basic skills to survive, and finally, i will mention one other issue related to this, criminal Justice Reform. Workingization has been on criminal Justice Reform since roughly 2013. We have advocated putting an end to what we believe is an institutionally discriminatory system of criminal justice that disproportionately affects minorities, and it was under donald trump that we were able to pass that. We tried as hard as we could under obama, and this is not the format today to discuss why it went awry, but we believe the Obama Administration prevented criminal Justice Reform from happening because of his insistence on certain provisions on which there was not bipartisan consensus, so we support all those things with regard to covid. I believe that whether its on mass production of ventilators for the most sophisticated and expansive testing system that the world knows what we hope under operation warp speed will soon be a vaccine for covid and on making the very difficult decision first to impose the travel ban on china and then later to actually shut the economy down for a period of roughly four weeks, that donald trump took extraordinary and historic steps to save what may well have been hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of lives and i think, you know, t the criticism of him he has sort of mock people Wearing Masks and he does not wear himself. Hes giving these huge rallies where theres thousands of people close together and not Wearing Masks. Somehow, that does not seem christian to bring people together when, as he told bob woodward, he knew how dangerous this virus was. Seems like he not protecting people . Do you wear our mask would you go to a rally where everybody is wearing no masks . I was at a conference this week where we were Wearing Masks , and im currently doing evangelical for trunk campaign abiding by we are the Public Health protocols of whatever state in which we are having the event and encouraging people to wear masks and Wearing Masks ourselves. I dont wear one when i speak at the podium or on the stage, but sure, we believe in protecting lives. I think where donald trump gets high marks from people of faith is he has called on a number of these governors in states to allow churches to reopen and we have far too many states today where it is ok to go to a liquor or a or a massage parlor casino but you cannot go to church if there are more than 10 or 50 people even though some of these churches can hold as many as 1000 people socially distanced, so you know, we believe in protecting life and in abiding by Public Health protocols, but what we dont like is when we think the Faith Community has been targeted in an unfair and even unconstitutional manner, and on that issue, donald trump has been an ally and a champion. The last thing i will say is with regards to the allegations that he allegedly downplayed the seriousness of the virus, dr. Anthony fauci has said he does not believe that that is the case, that he believes both the president and his Coronavirus Task force made it abundantly clear in multiple briefings, multiple Public Health statements, that this was dangerous, and you do not take the unprecedented step of banning travel from china on january 31, later europe, and then shutting down the economy for something that was not dangerous and lethal. It was very clear that it was. When i would like to ask is this. Is there any anything about donald trump that White Christians whatever speak out against, anything that you would . He had the famous line, which we all know, that he could walk down 5th avenue and shoot somebody and they would not care. Do you think that is true . Do you think its ok . Is there anything he could do that would turn off his base of voters . Look, i have said many times before that there are things donald trump says and does that i wish he would not say or do. Thats not unique to him. You know, i have worked on multiple president ial campaigns. I have worked with many president s. There are certainly issues, sally, where we come from or have come from a different viewpoint, and we have communicated that to him in no uncertain terms. We do it in private. We do it respectfully, because we think that is the most efficacious way to proceed. Mentioned one of those before criminal Justice Reform. He was not, as a candidate in 2016, or in his first year as president , where he is today on criminal Justice Reform. We have done the same thing on immigration. We favor comprehensive Immigration Reform that includes a solution for the dreamers, and we have seen him move on that issue, so no, we are not 100 in agreement on every issue. But i will say this. On the issues that i have mentioned, as well as many other issues that we care deeply about, he has been receptive, he has been open. He has listened. I have seen it. Pastors of multiracial and predominantly hispanic churches in his presence speak from their hearts about the importance of welcoming the alien and the stranger, and i have seen him receptive to that, so i have just seen a different side of him. Sure, there are things on which we occasionally disagree, including some things that he says or tweets, but in terms of the issues, that as i said, we believe our issues of right and wrong, and involve issues of advancing the moral good or liketing grave moral evils terrorism, hostility to the jewish people and to israel, the sanctity of human life. On these, he has been one of the greatest friends, and one of the greatest champions that we have ever had. So we are going to have to stop now but i just want to ask you, would you say that donald trump is a great moral leader . What i would say is on these issues that i have talked about, he has advanced moral goods and the common good, and he has resisted grave moral evils like terrorism and abortion on demand. Ralph, i wish we had more time to talk. I have 1000 more questions. Maybe we can do it again sometime. Thank you so much for your help and for your goodwill. And we will see you soon. I would love to do it anytime, sally. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Well, that is about all we have today. I think we have had two really interesting guests and gotten two different perceptions of issues of the day. Now, if you would like to watch highlights from this or watch the full interview, head over to washingtonpostedlive. And youonpostlive. Com can also see our calendar of events for this week. I hope to see you all again. I am sally and thank you for watching. Cspans washington journal. We are taking your calls on the news of the day and discussing policy issues that impact you. Coming up thursday morning, New Hampshire democratic congresswoman and mclean cluster anne mccain cluster on and then pat roberts talks about thursdays opening of the dwight d. Eisenhower memorial in washington, d. C. Arkansas republican congressman bruce westerman, member of the house Natural Resources committee, talks about the western wildfires and climate change. Watch cspans washington journal at 7 00 eastern thursday morning and be sure to join the discussion with your phone calls , facebook comments, Text Messages and tweets. Thursday on the cspan networks, the house returns at 9 00 a. M. To take up legislation against antiasian sentiment related to the coronavirus pandemic, and the pregnant workers fairness act. That is on cspan. Later at 8 00 p. M. , President Trump holds a Campaign Rally in wisconsin. Senate convenes at 9 45 to continue work on two nominations to District Courts in illinois. Later at 7 00 p. M. , coverage of the formal dedication of the dwight d. Eisenhower memorial in washington, d. C. 9 00 a. M. , acting Homeland Security secretary chad wolf and fbi director Christopher Wray testify at a house hearing on National Security threats. President donald trump and joe biden are set to debate tuesday, september 29. Pres. Trump biden supports Cutting Police funding and he has pledged to end cash bail. Thepy joe accepted endorsement of the procriminal, antipolice portland district attorney, towards a policy of releasing writers, vandals, criminals, and violent extremists without charge. He lied to the American People. He knowingly and willingly lied about the threatened posed to the country for months. He had the information. He knew how dangerous it was. Deadly disease rips through our nation, he failed to do his job on purpose. Betrayallifeanddeath of the American People. Theatch live coverage of first president ial debate on cspan at 9 00 p. M. Eastern, and watch all of cspans debate coverage, either live or ondemand, at cspan. Org debates. Quickly find all past president ial and Vice President ial debates from cspans video library, and theres also a link to our campaign 2020 website with campaign videos, candidate information, and election results. Go to cspan. Org debates or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. Vice president mike pence was in ohio on wednesday, where he delivered remarks to a crowd of supporters in zanesville
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