To remain in power until 2036. This is just under one hour. Good afternoon on the east coast, good morning on the west coast and good evening to those of you who are joining us in europe and russia and across eurasia. Thank you for joining the atlantic council. Im the executive Vice President at the council we are delighted to be having you with us to talk about our event today. The aftermath of Vladimir Putins constitutional referendum and im joined by three outstanding voices to address this critical moment. Ambassador,. S. These three remarkable individuals are remarkable thinkers, incredible actors and some of the most important strategists on the issues facing russias future. Its with utmost respect that we welcome them here to the conversation today and we are proud to count them among our friends who and have so much respect for their courage and the principles with which they bring their positions to this heated debate. Aadimir putin has been fixture of Global Politics for two decades now. After the symbolic july one vote, many expected him to remain a fixture until 2036. Is that the only possible outcome or even the most likely . Its one of the hardest hit countries by the covid19 pandemic. Its embroiled in multiple foreign conflicts. The russian people have increasingly found ways to voice their displeasure. What does the future hold for russia and what is in the aftermath of this latest shakeup . How can we imagine a future, a future democratic russia perhaps . Im thankful weve got this Remarkable Group and we will turn to them. Thank you for being with us today. And we are joined from moscows liberal mission foundation. Its a pleasure to welcome you back to the atlantic council. I will turn you over to ambassador john hurt to manage the conversation. Thank you,. We will start right in. Putin up to with his constitutional reforms and how does that fit into his overall policies . You first of all for starters. Its such a great opportunity to be part of this panel. Im almostdmit that blinded by the moment. This time, i would agree with damon, russia is under complete construction. The constitutional changes on the boat last week and the not because putin gets the right to extend his rule until 2036. He could have done it without any kind of vote, without any kind of pull and without can stick constitutional amendments. This is a watershed moment for russia because the changes of the constitution, the overall constitution and vote together inh other events this year 2020. Its a 2020 gambit. They have been a kind of final touch, the final act in putins building of his own castle, of his own putins estate system. It has been his personal project and his legacy and the construction is right away. I am personally livid with this construction and the system has consequences. Newsew ideology, bad borrowed from the soviet and presoviet past and most importantly, the personal rule is not constrained anymore by anything. Definedconstitutionally omnipotence. Era and closing the old closing the modernization efforts and what is interesting is the fact that he does not necessarily want to extend his rule forever. He wants to prepare the system to transfer to another of families and he wants to create the fear that the dismantling of his own rule will unravel this. Time, drama as always in russia per putin and russia itself. Wants to write in history to control the past. He faces essential challenges for himself, russia and the ruling group. Firstly, vote last week was crazy. Himself angry that consists of political liberals but of nationalists, leftwingers. Secondly, putin has failed to resolve the conflict which will be inherent, genetic to this kind of system, the conflict between the omnipotent regime. The other hand, legitimacy thatse the only mechanism can recognize this kind of system. The end, it looks like putin has failed to stabilize the to create stability and has instead been practicing suicidal estate crisis. The more estate, the more brutal system becomes. Has kind of system constitutional rigidity will be more difficult to transform without any kind of pain. I believe mike will find a good definition for this kind of putin castle surrounded by walls and insulated from the world. I am a big fan of alliteration and suicide statecraft is a wonderful phrase. There were reports of ballot stuffing, employers forcing their employees to vote, exit polls by the Opposition Organization said that despite sufficient tallies, the majority voted against. Even the eu has questioned the results. You say putin has achieved his objectives with the vote. Thank you for having all of us. Being ableard to us to finally meet in person in the same room. Mentioned the word referendum. Its important to correct the terminology. This was not a referendum. A referendum is something that is codified in russian law and governed by the International Framework as part of our countrys membership and organization like the council of europe. A referendum would come with a certain set of rules. Maybe the opportunity to campaign on both sides. It would come with a certain establish a set of criteria and procedures for voting. It would come importantly with the opportunity for international and domestic independent observation and i can tell you that none of this happened last week. In fact, the russian authorities themselves did not call this exercise a referendum. The they called it a plebiscite. The wording is important. A plebiscite was favored by european dictatorships, mostly fascist dictatorships in the early 20th century. Hitlers and franco and mussolini had them. This illdefined plebiscite that happened in russia had officially no campaign whatsoever. That means the entire government was mobilized in the form of coercion of Public Employees all over the country. There were dozens of reports from all over russia the Public Employees were forced to go and participate in it didnt matter how they voted. Voting continued for one week which is unprecedented. That week,ight of ballots were being stored in the offices of local Election Commission with no kind of oversight or control. There was ample opportunity for swapping those ballots. There were no independent observers. That is a crucial difference. Any oft really news to our listeners today that russian elections have not been free or fair or democratic for a long time. In many previous instances, it was possible to tell the difference at least between officially announced tallies in the actual public sentiment. In parliamentary election 2003 which i remember well because i was a candidate myself, there was a parallel vote count organized by the communist party using their observers of the polling stations all over the country which showed, ironically, that t much of a vote from the communist themselves but it was significant from the liberals. Of parties were kicked out the russian parliament. Largescaleremember ballot stuffing was uncovered and documented and publicized by s and caused street protests. Nothing of the kind was forcible this time. The only observers allowed to the polling places where those approved by public chambers which are these kind of because i government bodies, statecontrolled bodies in the regions and the national one. There was no International Observation so observers from the council of europe is not invited. They handpick their faithful allies among the far right politicians in the European Union countries like a member of the german bundestag for the farright for the Germany Party was an open nazi sympathizer who was sending out pictures of adolf hitler and justifying nazi asian policies. He was an International Observer who was paraded daily saying how great and democratic this whole procedure is. I wantof this is to go back to what you said a few minutes ago she mentioned the word legitimacy. We know that Vladimir Putin has been illegitimate defective for regime ise when his not been based on any kind of election democracy since at least 2003. That was the first a collection first election observed by International Observers. Even as he violated the spirit of the law, putin has been careful to keep up the appearances and pretend to follow the letter of the law. Hes been in power for 20 years now but he has implemented tricks like a prearranged job swap. President Dmitry Medvedev was officially president for four years but he put in a puppet president to keep his seat warm and then he came back. He followed the letter of the law, he didnt violate the term limit. Or the way he won the election 2018 when his main surviving opponent was artificially disqualified. Officially, there was still an election. Here in thisal exercise is that just by simply subverting the constitutional term limit and not even abolishing it but waving it vladimiry for himself, putin is becoming a legitimate, not just effective, but in the and league of regimes dictators that used this trick of breaking constitutional term limits before. From this day and certainly from the end of his current mandate in 2034, Vladimir Putin has prescribed himself to that rogue league of dictators. For us toch changes mystically in russia. Its been known for a long time that the system that putin has created, the political fate of russia will be decided from the streets, not from the ballot box. It wont be this week where this month or next year but it will than 2036. Er the International Consequences is more important. With previous attempts by western leaders including by american president s of all appeaseto placate and Vladimir Putin and his regime were just hateful and morally dubious and fundamentally wrong. Now, they actually become illegitimate as well and become akin to dealing with a usurper. Thati think is important this position be publicly voiced and publicly made clear by the leaders of western democracy. I put together some of the initial reaction that came from western democracies to this actual exercise. The strong words from chairman of the u. S. Senate Foreign Relations committee who said, this sham vote has swept away all remnants of putins legitimacy. Another very strong bipartisan statement from the leaders of , a democrategation said the outcome of this boat was decided long before the ballots were tallied. Statesponsored fraud, an obvious geisha and and obfuscation makes it impossible to discover their intent. Its important the statements about the nature of the plebiscite be reflected in policy and public position of western states and governments in coming days and weeks. Thank you. You are right that this was not a referendum as russian law defines it. Michael, you are never short of opinions and i give the opportunity to respond for if or i may have a question for you. Thanks for having me. This is a real honor to be with these folks in the atlantic council. I have learned so much from lillian and vladimir over the decades about russia. Because i am banned from traveling from russia, more so that a get a chance to interact this way. The pandemic has been good for me because i get to interact with more russians than normal as a result of zoom and to the atlantic council, i want to say that those who dont follow their work, they have a fantastic website, producing some of the best material on everything related to russia, ukraine and european security. I learned a tremendous amount from the work you all do. Thank you all. I would say two things. Understand why did putin do this. Thinky i perceive it i about other democratic transition and transitions from democracy. Moste been studying this of my life. When leaders have to resort to these kinds of methods, plebiscites, that is a sign of weakness, not strength. If putin were strong, he wouldnt have to do this. He didnt have to do this back in 20072008. He had a different strategy. This time around, he feels so weak that he needs to put this ability to stay in power until 2036 so thats a sign of weakness. I think it underscores how little he has built in terms of an effective state. There is no political party, there is no new generation of leaders. I dare my colleagues to name me prominent upandcoming charismatic leaders that could lead russia after putin. Im sure they have names but i bet 99. 99 of the rest of us have no idea who those people are. Thats a sign of weakness, not strength. Third, there is an argument in the west that comes up a lot putin is not so great for us for the russian people respect him and like him and this is part of historicaltural and history argument that may from time to time including in policy circles in washington. I would just underscore that if you are popular and strong, you wouldnt have to do this. Putin does not have the capability to do anything different. When you dig into the opinion polls which is always dangerous. I think we need to caffe i caveat that. This is a police state, there is no incentive if you are sitting in vladivostok and a complete stranger from moscow tell me what says you think of putin. There is no incentive to tell that complete stranger the truth. Remember that all the time when we read these numbers. There is something very curious about a couple of them. The numbers are falling as far as approval but you dont support putin online is that Everybody Knows or listens to which is a dangerous thing to do. When you are asked to open a question that means you have to proactively say that you support putin. That number has dropped dramatically. This is the numbers right here. Back in 2017, 60 9 of russian respondents proactively said that he is the leader they trust, today, the number is 25 . That is a radical change. That suggests thats why he needs this plebiscite to stay in power because hes nervous about what is going on in society. The last thing i would say which but in americaal these days, we have a president ial election happening and you see the enthusiasm levels were President Trump versus Vice President candidate biden and biden has an enthusiasm gap. All the polls show that Trump Supporters enthusiastically support him where is biden supporters dont support him with as much and theres gazan. Thisnt have good data on but anecdotally and looking through some of these numbers, seems like putin has a giant enthusiasm gap. Yes, people keep their head down and nobody wants to speak out and nobody wants to go to jail. The elite thatw support putin that are enthusiastic and say i cant wait for this man to be in power for 16 more years. I think that especially is something one needs to focus on, the splits among the elite, not just the population were after 20 years, people get tired. I work for five years for president obama and its all the honor of a lifetime. I have no regrets and i deeply admire president obama. What i be enthusiastic about president obama after 20 years in power . No. Its time to move on and people get tired. I is an enthusiastic supporter of barack obama would say that about him, imagine what most russians are actually saying about Vladimir Putin and their enthusiasm for him. On the last point, i hope we will get to policy things. Vladimir quoted some important american politician saying the right things, i think thats great but i would note on your list is not President Trump. President trump has never criticized Vladimir Putin for anything and his silence about the plebiscite, his silence about anything related to belligerent Foreign Policy actions from Vladimir Putin i think is striking. Thank you. For one seconds thek you so much for making point about polling. Im amazed how many times we have to explain to western colleagues that you shouldnt take opinion polls in a repressed society at face value. With all the caveats you outlined, i want to mention one more figure. Said 25 confidence in putin which is astonishing. One more figure could be more telling. There was a question posed recently a few weeks ago about age limiting the presidency in russia. At 70 years of age. Majority ofrm russians said they agree with the idea that the president should be age limited at 70. Vladimir putin turns 68 this year and i cant think of a more telling illustration of how fed up the majority of russians are with this man. Thank you very much for that. Lets go to the point michael was making that prudence circumstances would not be as firm as he would like them to appear. Gas prices are low and the russian economy has taken a hit in the Russian Standard of living is hurt even more. Is the russian elite fragmented . What does Vladimir Putins political future look like . With all my soul, i would both of you in the of theoptimistic view polling results. Putin isme time, demonstrating his weakness, definitely. The eliteer hand, could be pragmatic. Are under pressure from the tsunami of the law. Just as it happened in 2011 when the elites joined the rallies in moscow. There is no white anger or desperation from below, hardly critics within the establishment will fragment. They dont have the guts for that. The problem is, is there any possibility for wide and broad progress . There is no possibility, 28 of the respondents say they will join the protests in case there is a possibility. Chop promised to join the protest but there were no protests. Thees an opportunity for political opposition to come together in a consensus. What kind of idea can unite . I would bet the only idea that could unite them is not even corruption. Its the idea of growth and rules of law. The bitter irony is even in a fragmentation, there is a possibility you will have a regime change and the regime change could only prolong gate the life of the system. This is the bitter irony. Thank you, very interesting analysis. As an active member of the opposition, what does the r in thei of next the plebiscite . Righting of the plebiscite . On september 20 4, 2012, putin came out and announced casting and said this had been the plan all along which was an added insult and he will be president. I remember that the following day, there was a very small opposition rally in pushkin square of 500 people. Ofemember the reaction western journalists and this is how Russian Society reacts, everybody accepts it. Two months later, there was 100,000 people. It was the largest street protests, unprecedented. I just want to caution that reaction does not come immediately straightaway. I have no doubt that the reaction will be immediate this time. Ago, and the moscow city elections when several opposition candidates were removed from election to the we had people protesting against this post up if someone told me last year there would be tens of thousands of people on the streets protesting over the moscow elections that nobody cares much , it was about the insult. It was about the feeling of having the government wiping their feet over them and having no opinion and no voice in the right to have a say in their own future. That was the reason for the protest but not the elections themselves. Given the trends in public figures, i see those have absolutely no doubt that there will be strong public reaction. As i said, this is just stating the obvious that in regimes, its not possible for the opposition to win elections. Its not allowed. Its difficult to get votes when you are not on the ballot. Exercises are fully controlled by the regime so there is no possibility for them to lose. In systems such as this, political changes come from the street, not from the ballot box. Im not saying this was any kind of joy. I would prefer we have a normal, boring constitutional way of changing the government as you have in the u. S. And western system, putinthe has created, is not possible i have no doubt that this strategy has been there for a long time, mass, peaceful, popular pressure on the regime to such an extent that it becomes impossible for the system to withstand it. Other this and many postsoviet and postcommonest regimes before. Ukraine. In serbia and the model is obvious. Thisnly question is when will happen. Speaking as an historian and not a politician, one thing that is difficult or impossible to predict in russia is when that moment of change comes. 1917y predicted 1905 or and no one predicted 1980 seven. Sometimes it can be something very small that serves as a trigger and would seem would be seen in other authoritarian regimes. Is not an analyst but as a participant of the movement, the most important strategy for us in the russian prodemocracy opposition is to start getting prepared for that moment of change now. One of the biggest takeaways from the previous instances in 1905 and 1917 and 1991 is that mistakes were made because those people who lead the changes were not prepared for them. It just fell on them in a matter of days. Most things start happening around you and its hard to start strategizing so we have to make those preparations now. One of the most important things we can do which organizations have been involved with over the past two years, and open and free russia, focus on the main part of our work to work with a young generation of prodemocracy activists across russia. They were on the streets of russia last time and previously in the anticorruption protests. To work with them and help educate and prepare and train them to give them that experience that they will need when the moment of change comes. None of us knows when it will be but ive actually no doubt it will come much sooner than 2036 i smiled when i saw the outline czarur event, russias new until 2036. There are no people that seriously believe that putin will be able to stay in power until 2036. I honestly have yet to meet someone who actually believes that can happen. That goes back to michaels observation about enthusiasm. Michael come over to you. Vladimir putin address policy from the standpoint of a russian politician. What about the policy in terms of western policies . What you we be doing in response to this . I tackle that question, i want to echo something lillia said,. Im going to put on my professor hat. Ive taught at stamford for most of my life and i teach courses on things like civic resistance and revolutions and democratization. I would say two things in humility Political Science is really bad at predicting collapses of authoritarian rule. We have theories afterwards but we are not good at predicting it. Y and i have been talking this going back to the late 1980s and thinking about portugal and spain and latin america and how those analogies are useful or not in a postcommunist world but we are not good at predicting it. Second, i will put my white house and government hat on ive only served five years in the government, nothing like what you did, ambassador. I was struck by how bad our Intelligence Committee enter is atment it predicting these challenges. I was there for the green revolution in iran, the arab spring, the massive demonstrations in russia in 2011 , the demonstrations in 2013 and 14 in ukraine and we never got those right. I think we should have humility about our ability to predict the future. Isond thing i want to say use in anecdote because vladimir already invoked it. 24,so remember september 2011. I was working at the white house and went into brief the president about that event. I remember that day but a gentleman by the name of our tydey markovich arco markovich said it was time to all go watch football. That was really striking to me. Here is a very senior fixed figure in the government saying all bets are off, putin is coming into power and we will be marginalized. We know it happens to him later. He did not defect or join the demonstrations, he didnt join, he became deputy prime minister. He was coopted back into the system. Tose that anecdote underscore something lillian says about the elite. Just because you have negative preferences about putin doesnt mean you are brave enough or willing enough to act upon them. Many people dont know this but the first book i wrote was about political change in southern africa. Gentlemen in two zimbabwe. Both of the political leaders were extremely unpopular yet they stayed in power for decades. Dontthat as a way i know whos right or wrong. Understand, we are bad at those productions and that leads me to the answer your question. We cannot pretend that we know the answer to when the political opposition will have their opportunity to do what vladimir was describing. I do think its incumbent upon term,st and i use that or the democratic rule together to not do anything that rememberthe autocratic this vividly from a colleague fighting against mubarak. ,e said we dont want your help we dont want your money and all that, we just want you to stop helping our opponent. I think thats really smart wisdom for how to deal with putins russia today. N or others who have written about it but the west has to stop helping putin. We have to stop thinking we will have another ability to interact with him, a new president , those days are over and i think a big dose of containment is most important. A small dose of engagement when its International Interests and a great deal of engagement with Russian Society to the best of our abilities but we make it clear both in their society but also our society that our problem is not with russians and our problem is not even with russia, our problem is with Vladimir Putin. Concise. We have the last two questions that will start with one willmaybe the plebiscites fix his state is going to the immediate future. Any comments on this is a possibility . If i may, everything is possible. Idea thatidden Vladimir Putin is not thinking with 100 assurance that he will stay beyond 2024. In those constitutional socalled, a lot of the statesel to join counsel so she can join at the existing institution and then control a weak president. In fact, he prepared the system for a strong presidency. At the same time, its a public dissonance. They prepare for the possibility to stay. Still he is to looking at the west and hes how they will cope with a system that is not effective and how russia will cope with his own power. Thank you, anyone else want to comment . One quick comment. To support the possibility of the version she just outlined, one of these new 206 constitutional amendments, it codifies lifetime immunity from prosecution for all former president s. What you said is important. Man iny who is a strong a dictatorial system cannot afford to act like a lameduck. Hes beginning to do this but because of the trends in public age,ment, because of his that is becoming unavoidable. Thats whats causing these constitutional shenanigans. Another question day of the cold war, they said raised net was not the worst russian that could produced and some people zhnev was not the worst russian produced but Vladimir Putin is not the worst that could be produced either. We will have to live nc. There is a huge difference nev and putin. The old guys were not willing to fight for their survival. The differences they are younger now and will be fighting for their survival. Very welldan freed and his question is provocative. He is one of those policymakers in the United States never belonged to this group of cultural determinists. View thatbes to the those russians, they just cant do better. They just have to live under these autocracies and this is the best they can do. To me, this had always sounded insulting and it sounds completely wrong as an historian. History,e in russian the russian people had an opportunity to freely choose between being a democratic and authoritarian way, they always chose the democratic way. Did, 1906, 1917, it was always the Democratic Forces over the authoritarian forces. Also not grounded in reality. Of course, russia can do better. Former kgb agent. A country with 140 Million People come a country with great centuriesold european culture, its offensive to suggest that we cannot find anybody better than this. If dan is listening, i thank you for raising this point. Could i had one thing to that . I know this argument well. Over,scists will take hes in bad but not as bad as the fascists. Ive heard this argument many times when i was ambassador to russia from people who worked with president putin. They said the communist are coming and remember putin is a transitional figure so give him a break. I heard this from various senior people in the government. I would say two things about that, one is that the political orientation of people who are opposed to putin are changing. They are not just liberals versus the state. There is a lot of social democratic minded folks. There is a lot of people in opposition to putin today who look like other social movements including in my country. This old thing about king a liberal and support liberal reform and Macro Economic policy and big central banking, you and the west have to support us, i think we need to challenge that assumption. The more important point is i actually think Vladimir Putin is pretty bad. Brezhnev,o leonid think of what hes done in terms of u. S. National interests. Back. Tion is we didnt have any in the cold war. Inlating our sovereignty 2016 in the president ial election in our country. I dont remember Leonid Brezhnev doing that. That was horrible and might happen again. 2018, mr. Pruden l in ato kill mr. Scarpa foreign country. It was always understood that once you did that, you leave those people alone. Putin has a different strategy. He went after and tried to kill crapal and tried to kill other people around the world and this latest revelation that he may have put out bounties to kill american soldiers in afghanistan, though seem like a pretty belligerent, antiliberal, antiamerican leader in russia today. Its hard for me to imagine, tell me who could be worse for that in terms of our interests . Thank you. We have a question from three people. This regards russias Foreign Policy. It is pruden now post plebiscite, post appropriation of ukraine, should we be concerned about this . Question. Great at the moment, the kremlin definitely tries to normalize the relationship of the west. In spite of the hostility inside, they are trying to create an image inside russia. During the last year, even more. Its trying to bridge the gap andeen russia and europe even organize dialogue with United States for different reasons. Not only because of sanctions russiaseems to me, cannot be a great power and isolationa member in and dna total confrontation with the u. S. And europe. Back. Wants russia to turn germany is not a permanent members so how did global sponsorship of great powers convened without germany . Outside world,e has lostthat the west its trajectory and its high time to finish his own domestic political projects and secondly, to offer his idea of the liberal order before the west solves all the problems. Is that thelem kremlin would not be having this problem. New to do when the bipolarity is imagined . What will be the role of russia in this strange situation . Especially when the french and other people in europe are thinking about reengagement. This is a kind of invitation for Vladimir Putin to join. Thank you, do you want to comment on this . Generally speaking, and this has been clear from a century more of russian history messick repression and external aggression always go handinhand. They are two sides of the same coin and its logical. Merge d you expect from a regime that tramples on the rights of its own citizens to respect the interest of other countries . Its unfortunate that for many oftial years, the leaders western democracies including u. S. President s basically turned a blind eye on domestic repression in russia, preferring to find a way to deal with pruden nevertheless when they woke up to the first state to state terrier oriole annexation since the end of the Second World War in 2014. Those things are directly linked and they will continue to be linked as long as this regime remains in power. The other linkages true on the good side. When russia is democratic domestically, it has a different Foreign Policy. Time im in town and i like to that place in nunes street where there is a memorial plaque to Boris Yeltsin honoring his role in helping the Baltic States were grain regreen their freedom. I was watching the reaction of western taurus and sing amazement. How is a possibly russian president helped regain freedom for soviet captive states but it is possible . President yeltsin played a very important role. A government is democratic minded domestically and tries to respect the rule of law at home, it will also project those values in international relations. Am afraid i dont have satisfying answer to this. While the regime remains in the kremlin, domestic repression and the chance of a of external aggression will continue to be factors of russian domestic and Foreign Policy. Once russia has a government that respects the rights and freedoms of its own people, we will also be much more responsible on the international stage. Comes, that will first and foremost be in our interest but i think would also be a good day for the rule abiding international community. I agree. I have a question for you. Would a Biden Victory hasten the end of prudenism . Indirectly . Putinism indirectly . I will underscore something i dont get that i dont think gets enough attention in the west and the liberal world. That is the ideological dimension of Vladimir Putin in engaging with the west. There are two Different Things going on. In the westders that are impatient and want to get back to normal and reengagement, talking about that is a very symptomatic thing. They say lets forget about what happened in the past and get on with engaging russia which is one dynamic which is dangerous. One should not reward Vladimir Putin for being stubborn and not doing anything different. I think thats a real danger with respect to sanctions that needs to be fought. There is another piece going on that i think deserves more attention. Vladimir putin is not just engaging with the west. Putin is engaging with the liberals in the west. Nationalist,ist, orthodox and it believes in sovereignty and the postliberal institutions and he is forging alliances with people in the west. This is not a fight between russia and the west. This is a fight between liberals and ill liberals. Withinght happens countries, not just between countries. When i look at europe, i asked urbanleagues, is victor closer to Vladimir Putin ideologically or joe biden . Is President Trump closer to than joe biden or Angela Merkel . When you answer those questions and you begin to see what russia does in many different domains ands, the alliance of the liberal International Come i think we have to stop thinking the west is united ideologically and how we think about putin. In lyon country, Public Opinion shows that putins popularity among the Republican Party has surged in the last four years and ideologically, there are things that some americans are in greater solidarity with putin and his ideas than the kind of liberal democratic ideas we sometimes take for granted in a very interesting question from paul carter any data on attitude about an Indoctrination Program to maintain discipline . What might happen if they are called upon to fire another russians . Its provocative but very interesting. It depends on the a degree of protest. Ago, there wass a mass protest in moscow in the building, we had quite a few people from the right Police Together c with aolonel. The poor guys were standing and sitting there and we decided to give them coffee. I talked to a nice guy. I asked him, what are you going to do . He said it depends how many people are on the street. If they are over 1000, they will whack them down. If they are over 10,000, we will think about it. Even half a million . Then, he would join them. Answersve seen those before like in 1991 when there to the white house. Half a Million People were hand standing outside of the white house and the army refused to implement that order. We know the answer to this. Focus on important to the chechen remnants. Not shootlice would an unarmed russian demonstrators in the streets of moscow flows is ready to do anything. That when there were massive position rallies plan, there were people from the regiment brought into the moscow and placed around hotels. In the event Something Like this would he done. The most worrying aspect and briefly, i want to back up what mike said a few minutes ago. I think the most importance response from western democracies would be to deny Vladimir Putins regime, the prestige and illegitimacy that he so desperately craves. Otherwise, he would not have gone through this sham of a plebiscite. Its important to recognize that thatthat sums substantive difference, as of july 1, he becomes illegitimate. Normal imitations to the g8, normal red carpet and state visits, its important though strong statements are actually reflected in policy. I thats the last word and would like to thank you all for participating to day. Thank you all for tuning in. This is by no means the last we will do it be doing this on russias future. Thank you so much. [captionser Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] Supreme Court justices ruled that employers can rule out of offering them offering contraceptives for employees. The law didnt allow some did allow some extensions exemptions. Here is what we have coming up live today on cspan. Eastern, a 11 30 briefing with the White House Coronavirus task force addressing students heading back to school amid the pandemic. At noon, we are live with the House Homeland Security subcommittee hearing on the federal response to covid19. Live at 3 35 eastern President Trump meeting with the president of mexico. Watch live coverage of all of these events right here on cspan. This is a crisis. People are losing their lives. Announcer with Police Reform taking center stage, watch our live coverage of the latest developments. Plus, the governments response to the pandemic. We are going from 30,000 to 25,000 to 20,000 and now we are going up. Announcer briefings from the white house on foreign affairs. Congress on healthcare. Insight from administration officials. I do think there is a line that one should not cross where governmental power is used for personal benefit. And weill stand proud will stand tall. Announcer the latest from the campaign 2020 trail. Join the conversation every day washington program, journal. If you missed anything, watch ondemand at cspan. Org or listen on the go with the free cspan radio app. Next we are joined by miel