Policing accountability seems to be always about Holding Someone responsible after something has gone wrong. That includes criminal prosecutions and civil rights actions, civilian review boards and body cameras. Government, of the cut accountability is about people having a voice upfront, their elected representatives passing laws transparently that govern different areas of whatever the regulated industry is with public input. We dont do that around policing. Our organization is dedicated to changing that. Host what caught our attention was an oped you wrote in the wall street journal, how to rethink policing is the headline. You write that cops should not be sent to deal with social problems like Substance Abuse, Mental Illness and homelessness that they are not trained to handle. Tell us more. Guest one of our big strategic areas is called Reimagining Public Safety based in part on some of the same assumptions of the defund folks. I dont think many police would disagree with the assumption that, in society, we have decided to call police to deal with every problem we dont want to deal with. Whether it is homelessness or Substance Abuse or Mental Illness, even Traffic Enforcement. We ask the cops to do all of this. They are not particularly suited to it. They are trained for two major. Hings they will not solve all those problems. You can address them in better ways if you thought outofthebox. We have been doing that and focusing on that issue. We would be happy to send an oped to everybody who is interested if you email us at project. Org. Host if you have any experience dealing with law 2027488000. All if you work in Law Enforcement, call 2027488001. Everyone else, you are welcome 2027488002. We look forward to hearing your stories and questions for our friedman, faculty director of the policing project at the law school at new york university. Community policing is something that is talked about quite a bit these days. What is the definition of Community Policing . Guest there is not a definition of Community Policing. One of the problems is that it is in the eye of the beholder. The core idea, the one we think matters we have a project on the ground in chicago that does this, to get the cops off their radius so they are not running from call to call, and to engage with the community. Give them a chance to get to know folks and work with people in the committee to solve problems, whether it is a drug house or traffic problems around a local school, whatever it is. But we have distorted that idea of Community Policing. Many Police Departments refer to developing social interaction with their community, whether coffee with a cop or the aesthetically. That is important or unathletia athletic leaguen. That is important. But Community Policing is a more intensive effort to make sure the police are working together to produce Public Safety. Host the house and senate have been working on federal police legislation. The senate is gridlocked now, after a vote not to advance the senate bill, tim scotts bill. The democratic bill in the house did pass. What the make of the federal piece of this, and is federal legislation and Police Reform really an effective solution . Guest so i will take the second part first, because it is a great question. A number of other academics who run Academic Centers recently released a report you can find on our others, that talks about what legislation is needed at the federal, state, and local levels. The federal government is tricky because they have fewer resources to influence local policing than state law, which is a very logical place to do this sort of regulation. But the federal government has tools it doesnt use. The primary tool the federal government has is at touching conditions to funding grants. It gives Police Departments money and says, if you want the money, you have to do this. That has been ineffective. The other thing congress could do and should do is that under section v of the 14th amendment that guarantees due process and equal protection of the law, it can enforce that by passing legislation. Congress could mandate a national use of force policy and mandate the collection of demographic information around racial profiling. Congress can mandate much more. That. S not want to do it would have to create a record to do that, but it should do that. Host lets get a phone call from bill and we will talk deeper about this concept of Police Reform and what is going on around the country. Bill in illinois. We understand caller i was stopped for a very it came on my car. I was amazed, i was not speeding. Aggressive ig how thought the police were. Of whoa. What i want to say with that hand,ence, on the other 30 years ago in south miami there was a shootout with the fbi. Somebi was following people down u. S. 1. They got into a gunfight. They found they were totally outmanned with conventional weapons. Law enforcement went to very heavy artillery. They lost for fbi agents that day. Deescalate the aggressiveness of police in terms of how they interact with people and on the other hand they basically have to be really bad people out there . Host thank you for calling. Guest thats a terrific question. There are two pieces to it. Lets take them separately. One of the things we are focused on is Traffic Enforcement. , thee may not know this same number of people die every year on highways as die from gun violence. The question is does Traffic Enforcement help with that at all . When you think about Traffic Enforcement, is it taillights out . Seek consent to search cars. There is a program the federal government initiated years ago and many here to. They are going to use lots of traffic stops to reduce crime and violence. And ita is bankrupt takes a bunch of your time. The psychological harm, the shot, profiling, cops get individuals get injured. Is an area weve got to look at. For some of these, theyre a license plate readers. You can send the ticket to somebody in the mail. We dont have to have police intervening. If you make the point that they do have interaction, the cops need to be prepared. There is truth to that. There are incidents were something is delivering a pizza and it turns dangerous. Aaa shows up and it turns dangerous. Tools,ice do need the there are violent people in society and somebody needs to be prepared to deal with it. That is the problem, you create that problem by approaching things that way. Host jenny is in maryland. Good morning. Caller good morning to your guest. Some Police Reform bill. Billof the things in the deal with establishing collection, data things of training, that nature. Bill is justs this a bandaid on a gaping wound. Trainot believe you can the racism that some of the cops have, you cant train the racism out of them. They need to be removed from the force. There is nothing in tim scotts bill that deals with techniques such as the chokehold illegal, a policy is not law. A policy is not a law. Precincts,ice theyve already banned the use of the chokehold. And yet, some Police Officers still use it. Nothing happens to them. Host thank you for your thoughts. Barry friedman, what would you say about the hiring and training of police and how to deal with that . That i want to start with point which is exactly right, a policy is not a lot. Haves why we areuntability and why there laws on our website. When people are annually angry because caps not held accountable, we dont have laws that tell the cops what to do. I dont think the police need to resist this. They would do better to have a legal framework. If you ask about hiring and training, its really unfortunate what has happened in society. Unlike every other area of government where we have established regulatory schemes, in policing the only instruction we give police is maintain order and enforce the law. They kind of figure it out on their own. There is no centralized authority. We get these bad outcomes. The caller referred to a bandaid. We approach this as a bandaid when we need a model that improves policing overall. Everyone in society would be better off for it. Host we will go back to calls. I want to place camden, new jersey. You were part of a project in camden where the Police Department was scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. This is the politico story about the city that did abolish the police. It was one of the most dangerous cities in america. 40 of the population was below the poverty line. What happened that you want to talk about . Opportunity noan one else in the country has had. Other talk about how cities can get to this same place. The governor decided the thing to do was just a ball us abolish the police force in camden. They started from scratch. They had the good fortune to choose my friend Scott Thompson as the chief. Good person. Y he understood what you need to do is not enforce your way out of difficult situations, but build the community. We worked on a number of things, a Youth Program in schools, we had body cameras, we were one of the first jurisdictions that set policy. We didt important thing was help establish a use of force policy. This is the model that the world needs to take away. That policy was signed off on by both the aclu of new jersey and the fraternal order of police. There was consensus around what the use of force should look like. If you havent consensus, its easier to train to it and hold people accountable. Countryace in the doesnt need to abolish the police force to get there. When i argue is we need new dispatch,esponse, instead of sending people to all of these problems, we need to expand our horizons and think about it. We are starting to see this around the country with responses with other agencies. We can create a new First Responder who goes to several years of training to learn about law,l work, mediation, the emergency medical training, this group of things you need to know to be a First Responder and change the system so youre not rewarded for enforcement but solving problems. Host our guest work with the Camden Community Police Department. Our guest Barry Friedman is author of the book unwarranted, policing without permission. We have scranton, pennsylvania on the phone. Caller good morning. The first thing that is clear is some policeman shouldnt be policeman. They dont have the mental judgment, they cant control their temper in nonviolent situations. Shoot when its in nonviolent crime. They have to be prosecuted. They just keep getting away with it, nothing will change. If they see they can do what ever, nothing is going to happen. You will never change anything. I think there is truth to that. I also want to point out the deeper problem, which is the one i keep mentioning but i dont think i can say enough. Is a hard job. Its unfair to not realize how hard that job is. We have put a hard job on people that we dont train adequately or have rules for. Even a person with the most even temperament and theyve that with all kinds of social problems is going to be frayed. Its fair enough to be annoyed the cops. We are the ones who let society down. The cops did not defund Mental Health services. They didnt defund homelessness services. Decide to deal with Substance Abuse through a war. Those were our politicians who did that with public support. We do need to train cops properly. We do need to hold them accountable. Sayeed to look inwardly and we have let the country down. They are the ones who need to do something about it. , according friedman to the police project, the Core Principles you worked on dealt with dealing with force. Two do certain objectives. Authorizede is only as a last resort. Tell us more about those points and others, those Core Principles in place in camden, new jersey and how you were able to get there. Guest they are long complicated things. Its unfair to thank cops will just digest this. This in a way that was approachable, you can pick it up and read it. That is one thing. The principles around use of force are not rocket science. , his sanctity to human life and we should respect that. You should only use force when its absolutely necessary. You should use time and distance and cover to resolve the situation in a different way. If you use force, you should render aid immediately to the person who is injured. The astonishing is resistance you get to these simple principles in many places. The fault for that lies in two places. One is the Supreme Court. What weeme court said have to say about the use of force and the only thing we will say is it has to be reasonable. Even if a cop could have avoided it 10 minutes earlier, we will let it go. The Supreme Court sets a low bar. It if you didnt have to perform very well. Im in for that. The trick i think is to move away from thinking the courts will solve the problems. Pass laws that give clear instructions to the police, train them to those instructions and you will get a better outcome. Host another point is the statement from the associate press are at rutgers. In reality, the restructuring was deeply undemocratic and involved doubling down on roque and windows policing strategies. It was only tireless efforts from activists that pressured the new police force there to adopt the policy of requiring officers to avoid escalation. That is the cause of the gains made in camden. More heres an a enormous amount of activision going on. Being seeing problems dealt with in a way that has been ignored because people are out in the street. It is shameful that our elected officials have ignored this. It is shameful that they want to point fingers at the cops instead of themselves. We have a set of legislative fixes that need to be adopted. They should have happened a long time ago. Activism plays his role, everywhere including camden. I dont think its fair about what happened in camden. Was the head of an Organization Called the Police Executive research firm. Rules about what use of force should look like. A lot of police rebelled at that notion, that they should be restricted in that way. Scott came down on the right way to do this. They were already doing some of the training. Relies on a lot of surveillance. That is something we care a lot about. Be of that should democratically authorized. That is essential. Im not backing away from that. Host willie is in jacksonville. Tell us your story. You have some experience with Law Enforcement. Caller good morning. There is an unwritten code for the police when it comes to black people. I live in jacksonville, florida. Experience, i was just driving home. I was running out of gas. I put my hazards on and i pulled over. The Police Stopped me. From bad tont worse. Im curious. Is there some written code that might date back to slavery . That black folks are up to no good . Killswat comes out, they all the blacks. Way, the white folks survive. The question is, is there some kind of unwritten law . Host lets get the perspective of our guest. Cant talk about policing without talking about race. Committees that are affected by policing. We work with the communities in the activists and police. Unfortunately, you cant talk about United States cannot talk about race. We have a very shameful history of Racial Discrimination and violence and slavery. Removed vestiges of that hundreds of years later. We delude ourselves if we think there is not racism in society. Some of it is conscious. You see it in ways sometimes that are jawdropping. A lot of it is unconscious. Social science talks about unconscious racial bias. There are people who offer training. Sciencent much social to see if that training works. I should say around policing in particular, anyone who thinks race is not a factor is not looking at the data. We data is overwhelming that use enforcement far more against people of color. We did some work in nashville. We did focus groups. We looked at the community from all segments. To top executives at hospitals who were africanamerican and told stories about being stopped for headlights that were out, it was unfathomable to know what was happening unless you knew the back story and there was mandates to use enforcement in certain committees. It is not imaginary. There is plenty of data to support it. Have got to be rules and protocols. You are running out of gas, that happens to people. You pull over and you put on your blinkers. Toe the shows up that says serve and protect. If it went from bad to worse, the question is where was the serve and protect . To help some of you who is running of gas . It might not seem like a crucial issue right now, we are focused on Traffic Enforcement because we think a lot of what cops do is Traffic Enforcement. Its time we rethink Traffic Enforcement in this country. In one color, mike is caller in philadelphia writes this. They are following guidelines greeted by Police Chiefs who answer to mayors. The guidelines are written by attorneys. Guest thats what im trying to say. There are critical parts of that story that are wrong. Is if you point here are just blaming the police, you are living in denial. You are letting your elected officials off the hook. First, its true Police Chiefs are accountable to mayors. Thats the most insane political system ive ever seen. If something goes wrong, the. Ayor fires the police chief sometimes its a good police chief, the police know they will outlast the chief. The average tenure of a police chief is three years. Thats nuts. The other part of that story is wrong. Thats what im trying to say, there are not laws regulating policing. Laws, we are not going to get the right kind of training and we wont get the right kind of supervision on the backend. I agree with the comment. Look, we can point fingers to police. We see videos that are troubling. The story is not about bad apples. Its about not regulating the police properly. Thats what needs to change. Host lets hear from susan in new jersey. Caller can you hear me ok . I was watching the video of the gentleman who was shot in the back twice by that one officer. What disturbed me is him kicking him after he shot him. All that was going through my mind was who brought this man up . Where is he from . Where did he go to school . How did he get through to be a cop . Do they have psychological testing every six months . I could not get over that with the kicking. Thinking where is this man from, who are his people . Deeper problem than everyone is saying. Host thank you for calling. Lets hear from our guest Barry Friedman. I would like to ask has been ona how often he patrol in the innercity. These african communities are out of control. They dont have id. They dont have insurance. When you try to arrest them, they run. You are calling on the line for those who have had experience in Law Enforcement . Writers andof these protesters night after night and nobody misses work . Why do we put these people to work . Educated . He where was the criminal educated. Host lets hear from our guest and guest. Guest i want to respond to the comment about the cops. Factnot an excuse, its a. Id if you even people who been through testing are going to have had moments. Its inexcusable. Its a fact. My dear friend who runs the center for policing has looked at the social science. One thing they figured out is if you are in a police chase, by the time the top catches someone, they are ramped up. They should never be the person who cuffs person that they caught. Can understanding of facts help us do a better job. In terms of the gentleman, i found his comments disturbing. I was teaching at the university of alabama. I was driving my friend who was a senior lawyer. Said why are they getting pulled over. A lot ofid people dont have registration, dont have licenses because its expensive. They still need to get to work. One of the things weve done in this country is weve invoked finds in fees on trivial , failing to turn on the turn signal. We add on and we add on and add on. Thats what happening in ferguson, missouri. It was the way people had been treated i the police. To not be able to tell the difference between poverty and crime is deeply disturbing. You are not going to solve poverty with force and law. Host lets go to massachusetts. Susan, you are on the line with Barry Friedman. Caller thank you for taking my call. I agree with so much of what you are saying. Holdingits about mayors and elected officials accountable. They are the only people who can change the terms of these Union Contracts that allow the police to engage in bad behavior. They know their legal fees will be paid. The records are sealed. This is my experience. Ago, and myars mother was still alive, i lived with her. We lived in a brownstone apartment in boston. My sister had had a rough weekend. I was descending down the steps. My sister had her car parked on lakers on, shehe was escorting my mother up the stairs. Copof a sudden, this swooped onto our street. He accused my sister of parking illegally, which was false. Then he started yelling at her. We are trying to get my mother up the steps. It escalated and my sister started yelling at him. I was fearful for her life and one point. We are the white people. I found there is a bullying with police. If you ask for directions, they scream at you. Theyve lost their stability. I think its recruitment. Muchnk there is too emphasis on people out of high school who are not psychologically that it. I think vetted. Kudos to you for running your and having au cookiecutter criminal justice major. Are rationalideas and innovative. Im glad youre out there trying to fight for change. Host thank you for calling. Guest im sorry to hear about that story. Book, everyind my chapter starts with a story like yours. I try to pick apart that story in figure out what the underlying problem was and how we solve it. You brought up Union Contracts. Theres a lot of discussion of Union Contracts today. You make a fair point, Union Contracts are a problem to an extent. In some ways they are and in some ways they are not. The City Council Approves the collective bargaining. That could be solved tomorrow. As i keep saying, we have a political problem. In terms of the behavior of cops, thats why we want to reimagine Public Safety. There are two separate problems. By what youarm bullying, about stops, fritz, uses of force. The other half of the problem is because all we have is one tool in our society, weve got this , gotize fits all solution a problem, send a cop. The cops are the first person what youlike its not get. Want our Public Servants with a much wider form of training and a different attitude and demeanor and a way of thinking about what their job is to make society safer. Think because its a snap reaction, Public Safety is freedom from violence. We need people with guns to do that. For most people, its food and housing and getting your mom up the stairs to the apartment and been able to do that effectively. Just ignored this problem for decades and decades. Thats what we are living with now. Host Barry Friedman is the faculty director for the policing program. Thank you for your time and insight. We appreciat monday nights, republican congressman frank lucas we have come to appreciate how important it is that we maintain our technological edge and that we move forward, we make sure it is accessible, all americans across the landscape. I cant imagine, as a member of congress, how we would function in this pandemic without the ability to use a variety of communications technology. Not just of traditional phone calls we use for our house conferences, but zoom and webex in a variety of platforms to move information back and forth. That is not just in politics, listening to my friends in the industry, it has been a necessity. Making member of the health ,cience committee, frank lucas monday night at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on the communicators on cspan2. Bill and Melinda Gates on what their foundation is doing in developing a covid19 vaccine. The conversation was hosted by the u. S. Chamber of commerce. An gates are working toward internationally coordinated response to deliver a vaccine equitably once its created. Response to deliver a vaccine equitably once its created. Welcome to a special edition of the