Transcripts For CSPAN QA 20240622

Exhilarating to watch them have dialogue back and forth and though it was 45 years ago, it spoke very much to the present tense. Brian and to your partner in crime . Morgan robert called me and said he had come across a bootleg tape of some of these debate between William Buckley and corbett all. Gore the doll. Gore vidal. I was very interested in him as a character. Buckley was someone we all knew from being such a tv presence, when i saw the debates i saw something that was really speaking to today as much as it was to 1968. We got excited and decided to make a film about it. Brian when did they start . And what was the point of your documentary . Robert they had their first confrontation in print in 1960 or 62. Bill on the right, gore on the left. Three columns, i think it was Associated Press that they did. It really became more personal when gore went on it the David Celestine david suskine show and dismissed bill buckley as kind of a categorize it like the right had been categorized prior to his emergence. A crackpot, very far rates magazine very far right magazine and he had come along in the mid50s and change those characters. He sort of made the right a respectable place to think and be. Gore dismissed it and demanded equal time. Brian union gore vidal, did you know bill buckley at all . Morgan i did not. He was the revelation to me, i was familiar with gore, but i was familiar with buckley the man, and buckley the tv personality. Buckleys apartment in new york with his wife patricia was full of liberal writers and some of her gay friends and people in the art world. Not what i wouldve thought of. Robert one of the things we learned was that he had this was very interested in clinical debates on Television Political debates on television. But all camera he was interested in the arts and play the harpsichord and painted. He found its he perceived that in his alltime. Brian we have a bit of video from the trailer which talks about your documentary area and documentary. He represented everything that was going to moral hell. These were two visions of america. Each thought the other was quite dangerous. All of the security makes me nervous. His ideas would take down the nation. Its almost as if they were matter and antimatter. Freedom breeds and equality. Hes always to the right, and almost always in the wrong. Anything complicated it confuses mr. But all confuses mr. Vidal. They really do despise one another. You will stay plastered. This is William F Buckley junior from new york. Perfect. Brian how big a deal was that confrontation back when it happened . Morgan i think it was a big deal at the time. It was certainly something that people wrote about. There were riots in the streets in chicago. It was not the headline, but it was the way the rest of america was taking the san, sitting around the television watching. Taking this in, sitting around the television watching. It was this flash moments that people could not believe happened, and then it disappeared. You could not go rewatch it. It became this thing up floor. This thing of lore. Robert this did not happen on tv. Now, you go to college and you and major in we are studies. The work we are, at the time was a real heavy weapon. It brought higher upon the network from angry viewers. You cant talk like that on tv then. That was part of to digress for a second, one of the things we have to do was if thats the big moment, we have to contextualize it. Make someone majoring in queer studies now realize the weight that were carried at the time. Brian how do you split your document your responsibilities on a documentary . Morgan i documentary is such a labor of love its sort of who can grab what first . In terms of the massive amounts of research, it took us five years to make it. There was no clear delineation of tasks, can you do this . Can i do this . Brian where do you to live . Robert im in memphis tennessee. Morgan im in los angeles. Brian i want to run a little longer clip of that exchange in your documentary. Its about a minute and 12 seconds. Before i show it, how many debates today have . Robert one of the Amazing Things about the series is, these were 10 debates that occurred during the conventions of 1968. They met in miami, and then a few weeks later they met again in chicago. They were there to comment on what had gone on in the course of the day. Commentary because abc was not covering the conventions. As we got into the flow of this thing, it was as if it had been scripted in the sense that in the penultimate debate, is this huge explosion. This groundbreaking moments on tv, and then they have to come back for a tense. 40 for a tenth. Morgan this is the night of the rioting in the streets. They had just watched news footage of cops beating kids over the head and street. Then they cut back to gore and buckley. Brian here it is. You must realize what some of the political issues are here. People in the United States happen to believe that the United States policy is wrong in vietnam and the viet cong are correct. This happens to be the opinion of western europe. It is a novelty in chicago that is too bad. You can express any point of view you want. Shut up a minute. Know i wont. No, i wont. The only cryptonazi i can think of is yourself. Stop calling me that. I will punch you in the god dam a and he will stay plastered. [indiscernible] brian so the, shut up a minute. Did he really mean that . Morgan absolutely. Whats interesting about the relationship between these two men, politically they could not have been more different. They absolutely were coming from completely polar opposites. Personally, they saw the other person as a bete noir. A person who could recognize their own insecurities and expose them to the outside world. It seems almost by accident that they became such polar opposites. In a way, it was deeply personal as much as it was political. Brian we did not see the moderator, but you can hear have a little bit. He did not seem very happy with this. Did you talk to anyone at abc that was there at the time . Robert we did. We talked to people who were there, and i think the people who were in the control room were shocked. I think we have in the film, one of the guys in the control room says can they say that . It had already gone all gone out. It was so shocking that they withheld it from the west coast broadcast area broadcast. Brian you never go on the west coast . Morgan no. Brian heres some more of your documentary. Buckley expected this to be an opportunity to debate the issues. To have some fun, he was not prepared for mr. But all mr. Vidal. He wanted to take the National Review as being racist if he could area i dont think he was really interested in conducting a debate about the issues, or about the parties, or about the policies. What he wanted to do was expose buckley. Their confrontation is about lifestyle. What kind of people should we be . Their real arguments in front of the public their real argument in front of the public is who is the better person . Brian did you find out whether or not when they were getting their makeup in those blackandwhite shots . Did they talk . Morgan i think they try to not speak to one another as much as possible. One of the many things we came across an redoing the film was we went through gores papers at harvard. It included pages of prescripted insults. He had statistics. He had done a lot of research on buckley. He came in to try and eviscerate him on tv, and buckley was not there. He had was not prepared. He had gotten by on his substantive with honesty tv show. He did not single or who from the beginning was going for the jugular. Brian abc back in those days did not have a full day of television. What impact did this have . Robert it was a shocked to everybody. As someone in the film says, abc was third of three networks. If there were four, it would have been forth. They had begun later as a network. They were less capitalized than the other two. They needed the income from batman and the flying nine to run during prime time so they could the flying nine to run during prime time. The flying nun to run during prime time. They would come on during the day and given our andahalf summation of the highlights. The other networks accuse them of forsaking their journalistic responsibility. However, the idea of putting these two heavyweights on to go headtohead and give them 15 uninterrupted minutes on National Network was became captivating. People loved to see this dance this ballet, this tango. It was a boxing match. We took to calling it verbal one sport. They were after each others jugular. The weaponry was words. That developed an audience. Commentators were covering it, by the end there was a headline that said at the 1972 convention, cbs is going to imitate abc . The idea of two heavyweights going back and forth and precipitating fights on tv became increasingly the norm. Brian when did you start with documentaries . Morgan 22 years ago. I was a journalist, were both journalists. Were both big believers in the power of media. I think thats one thing that attracted us to the story area story. Its a cautionary tale and an absurdist comedy. Brian where were you as a journalist . Morgan i started my career at the nation magazine. Thats where worked for gore. I worked in the bay area for a number of places. Robert has been a writer. He has written six books. I found documentary early on. I fell in love with it. I love telling stories brian where did you start as a journalist . Robert i started as a freelance writer after college in philadelphia. I got on a weekly and began to string at the philadelphia inquirer. I had always dabbled in film and tv. I made a documentary i cannot honestly recall if it was an hour or half an hour in 1989. Brian what was it about . Robert it was about bb king and rufus thomas and their start from the streets in memphis called beale street. How they became national players. It was picked up by pbs. That brought me back to memphis to work on it. When i was there, i began to get magazine assignments which led to my first book. I was back into print and was making using videos, but it kind of what documentary acai it kind of puts documentary aside. They were making a documentary about sam phillips, the founder of sun records. We were out to dinner and i was working on a book about muddy waters area and muddy waters. I try to find as much film and video of muddy as i could to get to know the character better. I told them i was try to make a documentary, but i think im about to morgan said documentary on muddy waters . Not too much later, we were in the car driving through the back roads of mississippi making a film. Robert morgan microsecond entry is called shotgun freeway. It was kind of a Mondello Armando a mond o l. A. History. I set out to prove that l. A. Did have a history. At the time, it was interesting. We had people in the film talking about it. It was a success. I kind of never looked back. Brian more from one of the debates. This was debate number one. Lets watch this and continue talking about vidal and mr. Buckley. You get these crocodile tears for the poor people. I dont think they are going to vote for any of your candidates unless by some terrible accident the democrats get split in chicago. In which case, i think Richard Nixon might very well become the next president. And i shall make my occasional trips to europe longer. I think a lot of people will. I remind you of your promise to renounce your american citizenship unless you get a satisfactory outcome in november. That is not what i said. I said it would be morally correct. I can behave as in morley as the republicans. Brian how much of this was spiked by a producer saying we need audience go for each other . Morgan i think abc wanted something that was going to have a little spark. Something that was a little bit of the stocks. They got buckley to be a commentator and 68. They said who do you want to debate. He said anybody except gore vidal question gore vidal or a communist. Abc hired him, neither of them wanted to go on with the other but the lore of the nationals. Light on prime tv was too great. And they were well paid. Robert about a grand tonight. Morgan in 1968. Brian today that would be a great deal. Morgan i dont think the producers had to do any prodding. Once it was established, they brought more heat than they expected. Robert its very clear from watching that, there is not someone in their year. Very someone in their ear. Someone today talking about talk about hot salacious topic number two. I dont think that was the norm in tv at the time, and i dont think these guys need it. Morgan and the moderator was a distinguished news man who i think was really kind of embarrassed by this. He disappears for sometimes five or more minutes at a time. Today he would not have a moderator not jumping in every 30 seconds. I think really, everybody at abc just a back and let the fire burn. Brian they talk about vietnam. Here is a minute clip from debate number two. Now were going to win in vietnam. I said we could win. Could we, or should we . We should. Thats all we needed to know. Take a good look at the leading warmonger in the United States. At find the leading moral leading warmonger then i am to be with you in the sense that a majority of the people of the including the leadership of both parties, while you go to rome want you to go to rome and expatriate yourself. I dont expatriate myself, i have in apartments and i go there for two to three months every year. Brian did either one of these men serve in any military service . Morgan neither of them saw action in world war two, but they both serve during world war ii. Robert funny story. We went to go interview gore. He was alive when we began this. Gore had written his first novel about his experiences in the military on a ship. He had served in the Aleutian Islands. We were interviewing him about a year and a half before he passed away. He was in a lot of back pain and uncomfortable. Word had gotten out that he was not at his prime and kind of paranoid and conspiracy minded. He is wheeled into the room, hes is in a wheelchair and hes brought in and he is not making eye contact with anyone on the crew. Very forcibly looking down. One of the guys on the crew said my uncle served in the Aleutian Islands at the same time you did. He said he could never get warm. Gore raised his eyes and these machine guns came out and he said i had my rage to keep me warm. Brian how would you define each individual, politically, personally . Morgan they are both complex characters. One thing that is so refreshing about these characters is though they were the left and the right, they were such individualistic anchors, you could never quite predict with a with a. It was refreshing predict what they would say. It was refreshing. Gore was very much an intellectual revolutionary. He was of the last, but he never belonged. Even though he ran for office, it was never realistic. Then he would be able to represent people, he did not have it the common touch that way. He was more of a classical figure. He was at very happy in ancient rome. Thats where he thought he belonged, as a senator in rome. Buckley, its interesting because he started as a surgeon. From the right, starting the National Review, starting firing line. Leading us far right movements that brought the Republican Party to him. I think bill really successfully purged the fringe elements of the far right. He brought the Republican Party into his way of thinking. That beached his ascendancy in the reagan years. Buckley was somebody who was interested in being at the center of things. Brian we have a clip of Christopher Hitchens appearing on bill buckleys Public Television show firing line. Lets watch this and learn from you the impact of firing line. I dont doubt mr. Hitchens that you do not like the american system. I dont think you say conveniently that that which you dislike is exclusively with the republicans. We are discussing liberalism. I mentioned george mcgovern. He is not Lyndon Johnson. Say Lyndon Johnson is a liberal is to stretch it even further. Anybody who voted for Henry Wallace and refuses to apologize for it is saying that he was perfectly comfortable with his policies and with his affiliation with stalinism. George mcgovern was a friend of mine who simply declined to apologize for the equivalent of voting for hitler. Brian that was 1984. Robert young Christopher Hitchens. Brian probably right around 30 at that time. You have them in your documentary. Why . Robert he was one of the earliest falls we made because he had switched sides in a way. After 9 11, he appeared much more to the right he veered much more to the right. We knew he knew each guy personally. In fact, when we were beginning this movie you embark on the youth and you are never quite sure if its a good idea. Is what we are seeing in it what other people are seeing . When Christopher Hitchens answer yes come soon come quick. And then especially after the interview when he waxed poetically and philosophically about so much so many of these things, hes a great character in the film. We left that interview saying there is definitely a movie to make here. Morgan the one thing i will say is part of what the film is is a lamentation for the loss of a public space on television where people can come together and talk. Christopher hitchens said cspan is whats left of that. I will give cspan its props. Brian i have to say it does not look a whole lot different from what we are doing right now. Robert firing line was on tv for 33 years. I think that it wrought people from across the political spectrum and from the arts into a discussion with time like you do to allow people to develop ideas. That does not happen anymore. It happens between commercials and you have to hit the salacious stuff. Using that, im reminded of his technique which is to hammer here and if the opponent begins to give an answer that he doesnt like, hammer over there. Its tough. I do like a more open dialogue. Morgan bill was a master debater. I think that was his first love. He did not want to spend his retime talking about politics. I think he loves the sport. Brian his first guest on to firing line was norman thomas. A socialist. Im going to make an abrupt change here. You have been involved and other documentaries that have had some social impact area will come back to some of this. But first you did a documentary called johnny cash costs america. Johnny cashs america. Morgan hes the right and the left revere. He was deeply religious, he was a family man. At the same time he was an outlaw and an addict. He was so many Different Things and everybody could see in him some element of what they wanted to see. That was fascinating. In a way, he was one of those public figures that we can all rounds together. Those are the stories that gather us. Brian you are in memphis, where you involved in this one . Robert yes. We made this one together. And i think this new film is an outgrowth of that one. Initially, i was a little dubious of the cash one. There has been a lot of movies made about johnny cash. As we got into it, it was a revelation to me that such an icon that there were so many layers to this icon. I began to reconsider the dimensions of the icons. When we came upon the the doll thevidalbuckley footage it was good. Brian i think almost everything can be purchased on amazon. Lets watch a little bit of johnny cashs america. Hello, im johnny cash. I hear the train a common area train a cming. Its rolling in. His america was not red white, or blue. It was black. He appeal to everyone. He went across all the lines. I look at the footage of him performing for the president and how the for the prison. And how the inmates did not want to kill him. He showed love and compassion. You could almost project onto that big black frame whatever you wanted to. Cash navigated that some of the most contentious issues of our time. What did he reflect on to the country . How can one speak his mind without losing his voice . Brian why did you ask chris cooper to do the narration . Morgan great actor. Had the Great Southern voice. Had the kind of gravitas we wanted. Just watching that clip and being reminded, you have al gore and Lamar Alexander throwing throw in snoop dogg. Robert that was one of the great things about that show. Everyone could see themselves reflected in johnny cash. Brian when did he die . 2003 . Robert not that early i dont think. Brian did you get to talk to him . Morgan never did. Robert we talked to his best friend. Brian whats the background on getting Lamar Alexander and al gore together . Morgan they both have personal connections. Tennessee. And al gore, when he first ran for congress johnny get a Campaign Event for him. Johnny was friends with als father. Brian theres another documentary. A couple more here. This one goes back to 2003. The muddy waters. This is a clip, its not from your documentary. What is the impact of muddy waters on the country . Robert i think it his story, you see the entire and the entire a fact of the 20th century told. Heres a guy, a black man born in extreme poverty in the mississippi delta, one of the most impoverished parts of the nation. He goes from a house with no electricity to makes the great migration from the south to chicago. There he picks up an electric guitar and creates a new sounds. I knew sound. A blend of the electric creates with his band the template for a rock n roll band and becomes soon revered by the british explosion people and becomes an icon to the world. I think that we get a whole sense of the possibility of america. Brian i love his real name. Mckinley morganfield. How did he get muddy waters . Morgan his grandmother. Robert the delta is a very muddy area. Its at the foot of a levee. It was a very wet place, and he would play in the mind and his grandmother called him muddy. Brian lets watch a little this is from 2003. Got my mojo. I want to love you so bad. Got my mojo. Im going to have all of you women. Got my mojo. Got my mojo. Got my mojo. Brian what a want to ask is one of the obvious things, you had whites and blacks in that band. Didnt he died in 1970 . Robert 1983. Brian i got that date wrong. When he started out, what was the relationship to him from the White Society and from the black society . Robert across the south at that time, they were more than denigrated, the africanamericans. They were more than denigrated they were totally ignored. No birth records, no death records, no marriage records. Very few of those kind of things because these people were considered of a culture not worth recording. Thats part of the power of the blues and rock n roll. This voice of the disenfranchised became the voice of america. Brian when you look back on that, what year did you do it . Morgan 2003. Brian what was the hardest part . Morgan theyre all hard in their own ways. That was such a great experience. Part of what you just asked about, the white and the black audience is finding him. Its really that, muddy being afforded to the world. Recording to a black blues label and then places like england and bands like the Rolling Stone discovering this. And finally elevating people like muddy waters who were forgotten in their home countries. And then spotting a whole generation of blues fans. Right there, you see muddy integrating his band and kind of broadening the whole exposure to the blues. It was just a pleasure. Robert i remember the good things. We were in a field in mississippi shooting stuff and graphs. It was about chest top shooting stuff in grass. It was chest high. It was morgans introduction to chiggars which are a deeply penetrating bug that itches. Brian what is the impact of documentaries on the political system . Morgan they do have an impact. Sometimes they have a very concrete impact. You look at films like the invisible war about rape in the Military Area that 1 rate in the military. That would lead to specific changes in policy. They can have a general effect or specific effect. Hopefully best of enemies will have a broader Cultural Impact of talking about how we argue. I think documentary is 3d journalism. It has never been more revered and watched them right now. There is so much great work being done. People are seeing it more than before. Robert its exciting because documentaries have gone into have liberated themselves from the dry a format that they held for so long with the voiceover telling you what to think. To become really much more dramatic and better storytelling. Brian how would you describe where documentaries are seen . Besides the Movie Theater television. Morgan i think the big revolution is that place. Netflix has had a huge impact on documentary because they had such a wide array of documentaries and everybody has that service. Brian what do you know about viewership . Morgan they dont disclose this things, but i know anecdotally that when they are streaming on netflix, the kind of feedback you get shows up exponentially. Goes up exponentially. People who never knew where to find documentaries suddenly find themselves watching them on places like netflix. That and now expanding into itunes and hulu and on and on area on and on. Robert you also have festivals that focus on documentary. This gives people a place to see how the stories are being told. What innovations are being done. Brian back to some of the buck leyvidal thing. This was 1989. When they are talking about a month other things ronald reagan. He comes out of hollywood. He is an actor. He was hired by the various wealthy entities that control the United States. He was elected to impersonate a president. He was hired to cut the taxes of the rich and keep the money going to the Defense Department and every now and then to say the russians are coming. Now, we all have been around hollywood, not as long as reagan. He was always a very charming guy, but he was a chatterbox. He could not stop talking. He was one of the most boring men that ever lived. Very good at you very good at reading creek are reading cue cards. Brian you work for him . Morgan right at that time. Brian what did you see . Morgan that the charming gore. I think that was very much his public persona. I know he had many very close friends. He had an open door for many people. He had a very difference side a very different side of gore. I think he only wanted to show that face the people he considered equals. Brian what was he like working for . Morgan incredibly difficult. Mainly because my job as a spectator was to tell him he had gotten all facts slightly wrong. My job was to question him and his authority, and he hated anything that was to be questioned area questioned. Brian how would he react . Morgan i would hold the phone away for my year as he would greet me. I would knowledge and try to press my point. He was known to be tough on Fact Checkers and people like that. I would not recommend working for him, but i think being a Dinner Party Guests at his house wouldve been different. Brian what did you learn about buckley behindthescenes . Robert that he was very interested in a wide range of the art and he likes to hang around with liberals off camera. He was very interested i think it was about sharpening his own with. He likes to beer his own wit. He liked to be around people who thought differently area it was a way for him to keep sharp. This is the guy who founded the mainstream rightwing. Brian heres a clip from the second debate. The subject matter is something very similar to what we are hearing today area federal spending. Wimp must get private enterprise i would love to see the american virtue saying this alone can help us in the ghettos with the negroes. They are there to make money. The making of money is a way of helping people because it is a way of making good available to people. He made a lot of money, but he also reduce the price of the car. I would say offhand ill do it in one line. It has been a great pleasure to observe. That was a long line. We must break it off there. Brian that was not from your documentary. What about the how much of either one of them had their speech affected on purpose. Morgan the roots of their midatlantic attrition accents are interesting. Most of buckleys siblings did not have an accident. Buckley did attend school in england for a time as the young boy area young boy. Robert he spoke spanish is his first language. Morgan its not an accent to be found in nature. Brian what about gore . Morgan i think he founded at exeter where he went to high school. Theres footage of him at age 10 speaking and he does not have that accent. By this time he emerges as an author in his late teens, he does have it. Brian in 1982, there was a program im going to run a clip of this because its one of the messages you get in watching your documentary area which is how long . Robert hour and a half. Brian this was the beginning of television that was confrontational. Here is 1982, john maclachlan. Dont you think we have to break the bonds policy establishment which came in to be because of world war i, world war ii and the korean war . Your actions you are exactly right. A lot of these International Institutions are going to go if the soviet union threat diminishes. Its going to go naturally. The United States will compete internationally, we will be more competitive with the germans and the japanese get up and defend their own country. You lower the Defense Budget and you spend it on a r d and infrastructure area and you can use some of it infrastructure. You can use some of it to help other countries so they can trade with us. The best way to help poor country is to cut off foreign aid so the socialist governments will collapse. The son of George Wallace talking about the stripes. Brian that was a 1990 clip, but it started in 1982. How much influence to the 68 debates have on the change in television . Robert prior to the debates there was a brodsky agronski. Five people sitting around the table without at the interchange like that. One would speak at a time. Much less confrontational, much more sedate. Kind of boring. Here, im not sure we did not see nothing gauge the content. Theres a lot of backandforth sort of like they do in the wwf when they throw everybody in the rain. It feels kind of like that. Morgan i think the debates between buckley and that all definitely open doors for those things. I dont want to put all the credit or blame at their doorstep. It was actually one of those moments that led to this landscape we have today. Robert it cannot be emphasized enough that when they were doing it, the fire that burns was rich old one. They brought a command of history and philosophy and politics and language to bear on the dialogue. I think the flames may reach the same height today, but its flash paper. You dont learn the same thing. You just see the fireworks. Brian i want to run one more clip. This is from the best of enemies. Before we do that, what surprised you about the coverage you got . Morgan its one of the stories that we felt mattered and when we were making the film, the comment we got the most was does anyone care anymore . Is this relevant . Now the comment we get more than any other comment is i cant believe how relevant this is. Thats music to our ears. Brian whats the surprising reaction you got . Robert the surprise was how long it took people to get on board. As we were trying to get it made. Once its been made, its been very well received. Morgan by the left and the right. Robert we try to, not necessarily just strike a balance but not stateside. Brian last click. Lets watch. My brother bill, and he was a conservative right wing libertarian christian. Thats what he was. But most of all, bill was a revolutionary. When the people at abc first approached bill, they asked him what he be willing to be the conservative debater . He said yes he would. They asked him is there anyone you would not go on with and he said a communist and apart from that the only one i can think of is gore vidal. Men and women who are sexually repressed regard all sexual pleasure as dirty, evil the devils work. Yet we are all prostitutes in one sense or another, ethically if not sexually area for buckley, the doll with the devil. For Buckley Vidal was the devil. Brian his brother is not nearly as wellknown as jim buckley the senator. Did you ask him to do this . Morgan we interviewed him. Very knowledgeable and sweet man. But oddly, was very different than bill. He and his other brother were very similar. James was almost from a different family, which is probably why he was a successful politician. Brian before we run completely out of time, whats next . Robert might be next documentary, might be next book. Someone is interested in my stacks record book. It might turn into something. Brian you did an oscarwinning 20 feet from starting on . Was that just you 20 feet from stardom. With that issue . Morgan i have a feature coming out with yoyo ma area we will premiere in the fall. Brian our guests have been Morgan Neville who lives in los angeles and has done a lot of documentaries with our other guest who lives in memphis. We thank you for bringing us the best of enemies. For free transcripts, or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q a. Org. If you like tonights