Were moving forward with indycar. Because were moving forward with everybody. Shell. Powering progress. Having with jesse l. Martin, sundays at nine on cnn just pass 9 00 p. M. Here in new york, we begin the hour after the first of whats expected to be several days of testimony the former president s hush money trial by a critical witness, Michael Cohen, a former fixer, an attorney for donald trump. He testified today about the thencandidates alleged deep level of knowledge and involvement in the payments and Stormy Daniels, as well as the alleged reimbursement of cohen for cohen says fronting the cash. But cohens testimony is potentially undermine bypass that includes some Felony Conviction and ill the equally significant credibility issues were joined now by lani davis, famed as a former Special Counsel for the president clinton. Hes now the former turning current legal advisor, Michael Cohen, also former federal prosecutor, aly, how many is also joining us lineage . Good to see you. What was your impression of how Michael Cohen did and what can you tell us about how about the preparations . That he has gone through before taking the stand well, i wasnt there, of course, but i hear that he was controlled and it reminded me of the long journey painful at times that ive had with michael since june of 2018 when he finally talk to me about turning his life and fessing up and owning his lies over ten years with donald trump and i kept saying, why should people believe you . That was in june of 2018 . The next time he walked into a hearing room on the record on National International television looking at a sign on the wall above, congressman jim jordan head. That said, liar, liar, pants on fire. And that was the congressional hearings that we expect him to be calm and factual and Tell The Truth and own all his lies. And do that in real time. And then finally being with him for the last few years while prosecutors questioned him and ultimately decided that they had this case. But following how they a question to him and how they prepared as elie honig knows, the construction of his case is about documents in about Text Messages and about corroboration because of course they know that credibility will be at a line of attack and that hes gotta be backed up in everything that he says. And i think thats the way its been developed. And what do you think was the key moment today from his testimony there, the key takeaway . I wish i could have been in the courtroom. I decided it would be better to be in washington, not bad on my way through the courtroom and be available to do this for michael but what i gather was a key moment for him was control that he showed. I know last night i perform mothers day dinner. We talked and he was calm but he was very anxious and has been been a lot of stress fear for his family, the president United States threatened his wife is wifes father is children have been threatened. So hes been through a very bad or deal, not to mention anyone to prison. And was in Solitary Confinement after he refused to sign a piece of paper, promising not to write a book. This guy has been through a lot of pain and all i heard last night was resolved to do what i said to him before his congressional testimony keep your voice down. Tell the truth, and oan everything that you did wrong for trump. Dont defend and do an attack. Just own it. And the rest is going to be up to people to judge, including the jury. I never bunch of other folks on the panel course it was my other one. Of question is a question we asked its former daniels attorneys just a second ago. Do you know how many times he worked with prosecutors and now with prosecutors to go over to prepare for today. I mean, it must have been a lot. Yes. I. Was with them every time. A lot of people made fun of me because i wear the same tan jacket all the time, anderson, i had to try to get another jacket. We walked in and out of that. Prosecutors office first time to the first set of prosecutors. I first called cy vance and asked him to come up to otis, fill them federal satellite penitentiary. He was sent to interview them for the first time, secretly in prison. And that was in 2019. So count the years, how many sessions weve had with the prosecutors first piecing together a financial fraud case, ultimately that went to the new attorney general. Which its very 100 or more and sometimes hours and hours at an end. So if i counted them up over five years, at least 100 or more youve definitely needed another job. I mean, i was there, so it was painful right. To questions for you one, you said earlier to wolf blitzer that every word of Michael Cohens testimony will be corroborated, but is there a way to corroborate what he testified to today . One of the biggest moments there at the end where he said that trump did approve the agreement that he and Allen Weisselberg, ed, come to of how he would be repaid well, i think we had missed mcconney. Hey verify that he was aware of the chew up of those numbers. That is Allen Weisselbergs handwriting and trump dictated well, the approval of Allen Weisselberg writing it up and trump knowing that he was not paying Legal Expenses. Rudy giuliani said that on Television Donald trump at first said he knew nothing about the Stormy Daniels matter. He denied the affair, but the fact of the Legal Expenses is going to be the key fact that the jurors just have to use their common x their common sense jurors. So go to bed at night and dont see snow on the ground in wake up in the morning and see snow on the ground have not seen it snow. But they use their common sense. Theres no other reasonable alternative. Donald trump in the oval office. Why does this shock us . It shocked me the first time michael told me it was before the congressional hearing. I said, how did you get paid michael the money that you laid out for Stormy Daniels . He said, oh, he wrote me checks when well, in the oval office when i visited him as president , he wrote you checks in the oval office. Where are those checks . Oh, well, theyre home well could you ask laura to take a photograph and send them to my phone so i can get them to the congressional committee. So what is the explanation that donald trump would say why he wrote 35,000 checks from a personal bank account while he was a sitting president yeah. Unless he testifies and i invited them today, to testify, he said he would testify. Why wont he testify unless michael is telling the truth and hes afraid to test it. Yeah. I have a feeling hes not going to get on the stand, but i do want to just remind everyone in this one moment because you bring up the oval office. I agree with you. I actually Ask Donald Trump about Michael Cohen in the oval office. This was after the fbi i had raided his home and his office and trump had been saying publicly that the New York Times just trying to get Michael Cohen to flip on him and just, you can see the level of anger and trumps face as he doesnt answer these questions. Thank you very much everybody. Thank you, everybody lets keep going on the other tapes, mr. Obviously, after that, trump had his aides band meet from the white house, but i just wonder what you think it was like for Michael Cohen to be there in the room with donald trump today and for donald trump to listen to that testimony. Well, honestly, i listened to michaels voice last night and he sounded relieved to me and burdened because he finally after all this time he finally going to be able to Tell The Truth. What happens to mr. Trump, whether he is acquitted or convicted is really not my concern, nor should it be anybodys concerned. Its up to a jury thats our jury system. And if he is acquitted and i accept that, but what i wanted whereas per michael as delta, his lawyer to Tell The Truth and get his life back. And when he called me and he said he was doing this for his wife and his family, and his country i believe tim because i knew he was only opening the door to a lot of suffering that is going to go to jail, who is going to be vilified by mr. Trump and all of his supporters and his face, nothing but pain. But i think theres something relieving about telling the truth and going through the pain of telling the truth. And thats what i hear heard in his voice last night its ally here. Good to see you. Its been a little bit. I just wanted to follow up so almost exactly 12 hours ago, i asked you, is Michael Cohen going to testify that donald trump approved these payments in what you had turned the mob boss style, the general, go ahead and get it done, or is he going to say that Donald Trumps specifically authorized the specific Retainer Payments you said 12 hours go it was gonna be the mob boss style, but actually Michael Cohen did the opposite. He gave specific testimony. He finished up his testimony by saying there was a specific time. How do i so bergen i net with donald trump laid out on Retainer Payments and he said, do it. Were you surprised by that . No. Sorry, ellie, i either misspoken didnt speak clearly or im just playing tired. No, of course, ive heard michael telling me that it was very specific. The understanding was he waited and waited. David pecker and the people at the National Enquirer where telling them you got to pay it was Panic Setting in as election day approached. And finally, michael was waiting and waiting and then he got the instruction. Go ahead and pay it no question. But he also many times got the code from donald trump and lots of other incidents that he testified to in his congressional hearing. So i think i was referring to that la lanny. Let me yes, sir. Just a question about the charges in this case this is a case about false Business Records prepared by the Trump Organization does and this was something i was a little unclear about from the testimony today. Does Michael Cohen know specifically how donald trump caused false Business Records to be made or did he just take the money and assume the false business Business Records were made im not aware in all the hours that i spent with him which over 100 hours in his Prosecutors Room that he saw the recording of those Business Records as Legal Expenses which made them fraudulent and of course enhances the 34 counts into felonies as a means of concealing the crime that i dont think theres any doubt that he was motivated for political reasons. Everybody. I just dont get that argument on that any longer. And of course, im trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because hes innocent until proven Beyond A Reasonable Doubt geoff. But on the actual recording of the expenses, i think its more like the famous circumstantial evidence test that i said earlier he knew they werent Legal Expenses of that is certain. And those numbers were recorded as Legal Expenses. So is he going to argue that he didnt know they were recorded as Legal Expenses when he knew he was Writing Checks from the oval office to reimburse a crime and that is the what they jury has to use its common sense about. And the old song that i mentioned, if you go to sleep at night, theres no snow on the ground. You wake up in the morning. Theres snow on the ground, theres no direct evidence that its node. This jury is going to have to use this common sense. Did donald trump really lie about there being Legal Expenses and then they recorded as Legal Expenses and it wasnt because of his instruction that there should be a concealment of the real crime, which was the crime that Michael Cohen went to jail for which is paying money for political reasons right before an election lennard davis, i really appreciate your time. Thank you could i say one thing, anderson go yell. Spent a long time since ive said that. So go yeah. You have a good night. Thank you. Thank you, everyone else does stay with us where the full transcript from todays testimony coming up, Michael Cohen testifying on the fallout of the access Hollywood Tape plus the former president brought an entourage for republicans with him today. The save the things. A gag order prevents him from saying thats ahead this source weve Kaitlan Collins. Hes brought to you by opt devo plus your voice. Find out more at devo if advanced lung cancer has you searching for possibilities, discover a different first treatment, immunotherapies work with your Immune System to attack cancer, but up devo plus your voice is the first combination of two immunotherapies for adults, newly diagnosed with nonsmall Cell Lung Cancer that has spread tests positive for pdl1 and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene up devo plus your voice is not chemotherapy. 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He became the latest witness to testify just how scared the former president of 2016 Campaign Staff was when the access Hollywood Tape surfaced, one former aide who worked at the rnc when the tape came out, previously testified that members there were rattled than that she remembers conversations about possibly needing to replace trump as the republican president ial candidate. Today cohen gave more testimony about the fallout and john berman joins us with some of those transcripts yeah, it was really the Stormy Daniels matter following access hollywood, that according to Michael Cohen, in rage, donald trump are really set him off. Hes describing a moment when Stormy Daniels people is to be Keith Davidson and dylan howard from the acquirer came forward and said, Stormy Daniels is looking for some money here. Hovland, youre the prosecutor says, did you tell him donald trump what you had heard from dylan howard and Keith Davidson cohen says, yes, hoffacker says, and what was his Reaction Cohen says, he was really angry with me. I thought you had this under control. I thought you took care of this. I expressed to mr. Trump, we did 2011 with the Stormy Daniels matter first came up, cohen says, i have no control over what it out and does. And he expressed to me there was a previous denial just take care of it. There was a lot going on at the campaign at the time. He was like just cake, take care of it, hoffinger asks, did he say anything to you at the time about how this might be viewed if it got out, cohen says yes, hoffinger, what did he say in substance cohen . He said to me, this is a disaster, a total disaster. Women are going to hate me because this is really a disaster. Women will hate me guys may think its cool, but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign. Hoffinger, what if anything, do you understand it to mean by women will hate this and what his concern was. Todd blanche says objection, judge. Overruled. Michael cohen says he was pulling very poorly with women in this coupled with the previous access Hollywood Tape, he just stated, this disaster and get control over it. I think we can put this particular aspect of this case to bed. I mean, it obviously was motivated by the campaign, the payoffs every single witness has said it it makes perfect common sense. This is Michael Cohen saying nothing new that everybody hasnt said before. And yeah, theres a couple of snippets where people said, well, he was worried, trump was worried about meloni. I was worried about his Family Situation thats fine. That doesnt cancel out, that theyve shown i think more than adequately, that there was a Campaign Motive here. I just dont see any basis to say that there was no concern with the campaign. How could that even be . Well, he doesnt hearing this and jeff doesnt hearing this ring. This bell about attorneyclient privilege. What how is how is hes representing . Theres nothing me i am the prior. Im a loyal to the president in his private lawyer, and were having these private conversations how does this attorney for an exception okay. So theres a crimefraud exception . And heres the only way that comes in, because now you have two lawyers on the jury who may know of this. The only way that crime for exception in comes in is the judge has dad to have ruled beforehand that there were some that that it fits into the crimefraud exception. So now the lawyers if the lawyers know their stuff, the way my colleague you see you do in their mind, theyre like, well, the only reason why were hearing this is because the trial judge has already ruled that there must have been some crime here that theres now theres an exception to the attorneyclient privilege. Thats the only way were hearing Michael Cohen is no longer an attorney. He was disbarred as a part of those secondly, to that point, Michael Cohens not the first person to testify to this, and this is a way that you saw the prosecution handling this today is a lot of what Michael Cohen testified to tech city read calls that he backed up, were once that the jury had already seen but hope hicks has already testified that trump was worried about what was going to happen with the election. Weve heard that from david pecker as they anticipated that Women Problem hope hicks is not his lawyer. Michael cohen, issues. They said it. So it he said it in the jury heard it, so it doesnt nullify it. Its a good question. I think the answer is this attorneyclient privilege has been very much waived by both parties. I think trump and cohen have long ago suspended any claim that theyre still covered by privilege. Theyve both talked at length publicly in front of congress here in this trial to prosecutors about what was said. So i think this has been very much weight, meaning given off by both parties younger exactly five hours, exactly. Like its long gone. What i dont understand what i dont understand in advance and well see is i understand that. You can point out that Michael Cohen has this history of lying. You say lied to his wife, but which parts of his testimony will they try to go after . Thats what i find curious because i think so much of his testimony is bolstered by other witnesses you can say hes a terrible person. You can say hes, you know, hes convicted perjure, but what is the testimony before this jury . Thats false. Thats what part here unless i have a little bit of the charge, its the sample george, i dont know if this is exactly what the judge is going to read, but this is the part of it. If you find that anyone has has intentionally testified falsely as to any material fact, you may disregard that witnesses entire testimony, or you may disregard so much of it as you find was untruthful theres also a part here that says, did the witness have a conscious bias, hostility, or some other attitude that affected their truthfulness of the witnesss testimony. During can take that into consideration. All that all that is true. But the question is, was the money a reimbursement . I mean, thats its just seems to me that so much of this case is proven, even if even if Michael Cohen is a terrible, let me ask you this question. I wanted to ask it to allow any davis what should donald trump have written data . So first of all, we saw the checks on the checks, it does not say legal fee. Its just a fee. It just the amount of money to Michael Cohen. So it doesnt say not all the legal three on the check so it could be that its here. Im reimbursing him and this is part of the reimbursement. So closure agreement. So what you dont want it to say is reimbursement to pay hush money to Stormy Daniels. So what should it have been logged under . But werent should have been put in the books, something other than a lie, which is that it was a retainer. Theyve done say no one said and were says this is a legal fee. Hes paying his lawyer back for money that is lawyer paid out to the phrase on the on the on the stubs is retainer thats the word retainer. Okay. And its not a retainer. Youre right. It is not a retainer, but it could be considered a legal fee when its a lawyer who laid out their money for you and now youre paying a lawyer back. I will say arthur, that throughout the test and money what you do see is cohen and others testifying that trump was aware of many of the specifics what was going on and there was another element of that in the testimony today. Hes talking about setting up the accounts where the ultimate payments came from. The prosecutor says, did you call mr. Trump before you went and set up the account to make a transfer, cohen says yes, hoffinger says what substance did you discuss with him on these two calls . For which there are car records for cohen says, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved wright was doing because i required approval from him on all of this. Thats what the sum and substance of the conversation was, laying out exactly what was going to happen and what was being done in order to ensure the story didnt get sold to the daily mail or somebody else officer, did you let him know youre going across the street and youre going to get the Account Setup and make the payment. Cohen says, yes, maam, would you have made the payment to Stormy Daniels, the out getting a sign off from mr. Trump, cohen says no hoffinger asks, why not . Cohen says because everything required mr. Trump signoff on top of that, i wanted the money back. Okay. So this is really important testimony and this is a good example. Hipaa, where Michael Cohen is and is not corroborated throughout the states. October 26, about two weeks before the election. The prosecution did a masterful job of weaving in various forms of corroboration. Theres the phone records that john talked about. Theres certificates from the bank, theres emails that backup that thats exactly what Michael Cohen did that day. However, to jeffries point, how are they going to crossexamine . How are they going to suggest Michael Cohens lying . Theyre going to say what you actually discussed the content of that phone call with donald trump all we have for that is Michael Cohens word and folks on the jury can you trust him at his word . Yeah. Theres other Stuff Scaffolding is a good expression you used earlier. Theres scaffolding around him, but to fill that in, you have to take the word of this man at face value thats what theyre going to say. Hes not a fabulous hes not inventing things, but hes an opportunity to your right, your right butt, and just to emphasize that point the most provocative and interesting parts of his testimony today, were about conversations he had with donald trump. Yes. And for that, there is no corroboration unless donald trump takes the stand, which we all know, hes probably here for that how much he would sort of go into Donald Trumps office where he says he would go into Donald Trumps office even after one phone call to fill in trump on something that trump wanted to hear all the details of all these steps along the way for just about everything monday. Okay. And that goes to the standard issue that comes up in cooperating with cooperators all the time. And your point about oh, hes a terrible person. Hes a liar. Will who was inside and outside of Donald Trumps office for ten years let me give the judge, the jury a motive. You may consider whether a witness had or did have a motive to lie. Theyre going to show a picture of him wearing a tshirt that has donald trump behind bars. Does this guy have biased as this guy of a motive to put him behind jail. Hes telling the whole world that he does and it will be interesting to see how he handles that on cross because today he made a point. Its several several junctures where he would make fun of himself or he would say, yeah, i had an ego thats why i thought that i should get a job in the white house or yes, i did want to benefit from being Donald Trumps personal attorney and i knew it would come with a lot of opportunities where maybe donald trump wasnt paying me once he was president , but i was going to get well this other access, he took these small moments to kind of make fun of himself or criticized himself. And the question is, how the jury will discern that theyre essentially expressionless during this entire testimony. You cannot tell theyre paying such close attention. Theyre taking copious notes, but you cannot tell what they are thinking or how theyre taking it john berman, thanks very much. I appreciate it coming up. The former president brought some political backups with them to court today, including republican senators jd vance and tommy tuberville. Well talk about why with the democratic strategist James Carville next would you have Chronic Kidney Disease there are places youd like to be like here and here not so much here far sneaker reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis our sega can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary hey, tract or genital Yeast Infections and low blood sugar. A rare lifethreatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. 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Whats going on inside that courtroom is a threat to american democracy. Ladies and gentlemen, we cannot have a country where you get to prosecute your political opponent on its instead of persuading voters ventral into attack prison biden, who to be clear, has nothing to do with his trial and take shots at Michael Cohen, which defendant of course, has gagged from doing. It already is now a democratic strategist, James Carville, james i mean, she then wont be surprised that i mean the former trumps running mate auditions have moved to the courthouse not at all. What im spotted, it took people so long to get there. I mean, he got cameras, he got publicity, he got to suck up to trump of course, is zero evidence that present bont had anything georgias prosecution, but i just done it took so long. My favorite to adamson was sent a tableau bill from alabama, who said that the Manhattan Criminal Court was depressing, i guess she was expecting my cousin, vinny to show up can do. Criminal courts tend not to beat are most cheerful i mean, nothing else seems to. The latest polls in New York Times show him ahead of President Biden a bunch of key swing state right . I havent seen in the last year, weve had indictments, weve had war as we paid Foreign Policy crisis at the post, havent changed so i dont think anybody can say would much confidence. I think a hung jury, if anything, would probably helping but weirdly enough that it just duration seems to be stuck in a place and has been stuck there for a while i dont know all predictions that things will change a been futile so far that bob, but all i can tell you is that i dont know, but i think a hung jury would would would help him. I do think good him more enthusiastic be joined us huge crowds and its quite concerning out there james. Its Kaitlan Collins and first i have to tell you roll tide because i see, your tiger shirt that youre wearing right now, but i have to ask him speaking of senator tuberville for elevate from alabama but he clearly is someone who is beaten, been angling for maybe a cabinet position. If trump wins and is back in the white house, jd vance, obviously it would like to be Vice President , others in this realm are going to show up. We know vivek ramaswamy, marco rubio. Im sure well see doug burgum maybe at some point. What do you make of the fact that all these people who are either trying now to be Donald Trumps Vice President ial pick or in his cabinet are in that second row of the courtroom whats really amazing is the lack of support. I think your son, eric, was the only Family Member and he kinda showed up for a day i dont think his wife will get within the same stadium here. But its been amazing that no one has figured out which sentenced to vance and send at the tuberville. But for them, they got more publicity today, didnt have gotten maybe all year and i suspect that they were going to see more support for him to trial because people figured out rather late that that the cameras that they can get exposure but it was really surprising is in a Trump Supporters dont show up. There was one person sitting now, theyre supporting him, so it is a pretty lonely guy in that courtroom. Yeah. Its only been maybe ten supporters outside the courthouse, even though anyone can go and eric trump, you make a good point because eric trump has been the only Family Member whos been there. He was back there again today. Ive seen him probably three times, but politically speaking, you would always see a candidates spouse next to them in a moment like this. And i think obviously Melania Trump is not a typical politicians is felt by any means. But what does it say that that she isnt there . Well, i it says a lot. I mean, the whole thing would baron was going to be a delegate and she came in and said, no, i i dont im not privy to any other private details of their marriage, but it doesnt seem to be a very from a distance. It doesnt seem to be remotely are happier close win, but thats really not hi, my business. But it is amazing. I mean, if you want to criminal trial, you would think your family would show up where your friends are. There would be some kind of support for your emotional support and moral support, but its really stunning how little he said until today in i think the cameras will draw some more people there. How do you think President Biden should handle this . Should he be commenting on the trial more directly or theyre obviously wary of doing so, given trump is so directly tried to say that this is bidens trial, even though its obviously not its not. Like just things not being covered. You dont need to throw an extra wellknown a firearm in its blazing away. Now and i think i agree that the president should stay away from it, shouldnt comment on it but right now hes got to try to move some Money Numbers yet these poles are stuck in a ditch. And admin at way for awhile if the access Hollywood Tape didnt derail Trumps Campaign in 2016, why would a case involving Business Records for the Stormy Daniels pay off derail his campaign in 2024 i dont know. Im sure its a good question and i cant pretend that i know the answer to. I dont think anybody else can pretend that the node answer to it. You would think all of these indictments youd think that the Covid Response even think everything that had been january to six, i was firmly convinced that it would done in by january 6, more people than ever think its a Tourist Visit now so im totally flummoxed is how distinct stays the same, but i do know one thing. It just stays the same and nothing more things happen. The more things stay the same and were democrats are doing the president s doing terrible voters under 30 would with black voters, which are pretty key to this whole equation here. So hopefully, we can get something going here. In the next four or five months. But right now not looking at promising james, its its abby phillip here. I wonder. I mean, not now we know, hey, i mean now we know that this might be maybe the only trial that we see if donald trump this year is it time for democrats to move on and look at the fundamentals of this race and not see these trials as somehow this x factor thats going to have a huge influence on how this thing turns out in november yeah. Upside if we are doing pretty well, they shouldnt ratios and thats been pretty consistent over several months. Ive seen a lot of Senate Polling and that does look good. But right now in the president ial race, this is a sticky wicked out there thats all i can say. If there are all these characters parading to the courthouse to maybe audition for trumps vp. There are some who were here this week some who were down in maralago over the last couple of weeks . Beaks. Which one do you think poses the greatest threat here to the Biden Campaign at this point i dont think i dont think trumps Vice President natural kick is going to mean a lot i mean, i think he picked pence because he thought it probably would put some validity. Thought hed shore up the kinda religious, right . A little bit i think that Needs Argument or not theres some argument that it did in 2016 help him in that response thats it. I said, yeah, i couldnt help him. So i said yeah, authority pretty show up and it might have helped. It might help some on the margins. But i dont you dont people come up in his speculated it could be this person or that person i dont see any Vice President ial pick changing the basic equation that were looking at right now. I really dont. I mean, what im hoping happens is recovery keeps going on and it keeps dig in deeper down and people started feeling it. But right now its recovery to that people have denying that exist in its a good word is recovery because you have come back from something. So we should call it a recovery. But our economic message and is not breaking through. Its been counterproductive so far James Carville great to have you appreciate it thank you thank you. Its a great panel. Thank you. Glad you in your orleans how the jury is receiving cohens testimony so far and whether theyll ultimately by the words, im going to meet a Liar Reaction from the trial and Jury Consultant detect this living with hiv. Robert learned he can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Thats why he switched to Nevado Divider was a complete Hiv Treatment for some adults. 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He told trump after Learning Mcdougal was looking to sell a story about their alleged relationship, quote i asked him if he knew who Karen Mcdougal was, if he knows anything about the story, his response to me was shes really beautiful. I said, okay, but theres a story that right, that right, thats right now being shopped. Prosecutor susan hoffinger, then asked him, did mr. Trump asked you to take any action with respect to the story, cohen replied, yes avengers says, what did he ask you in general to do . Cohen answers, make sure it doesnt get released. Heres what mcdougals said to me in 2018 do you think . The president ial race had anything to do with this deal getting done what im looking back, at it now, possibly, yeah. If donald trump hadnt been running for president , do you believe this deal would have been made with ami knowing what you know now, probably not. Know. How often youre pretty youre convinced. Now this was an effort to do a favor for donald trump in the last few months of the president ial race unfortunately, yes. Its tough cutting from that shot of me in 2018 to this, im just saying rather been ravaged by time as John Oliver One said joining South Jury Trial consultant around i was to be or not appreciate you being with us. One of the things that the Courtroom Sketch Artist who was here said christine cornell, which is something a lot of us have noticed being in the courtroom, is that the jury greene does not look at donald trump when they come in and out. Does that you read anything into that as a jury series . Typically do not look at defendants that often when theyre coming in or out but be sure they are watching his every move. So when he is shaking his head, they are noticing when he is muttering things under his breath, there noticing he might not be doing himself any favors by doing that because theyre catching all of that and theyre thinking, all right, you want to Say Something, take the witness stand. So i dont know that its such a great thing. Hes doing it. One thing id be watching for though as the jurors walk in and out. Are the two lawyers muddy buddies because that is something now im not a believer in reading faces are reading body language, but something you can tell r what jurors are bonding with each other. And if the two lawyers are bonding, thats good for somebody. And if theyre not bonding, that could show you that theres gonna be some what we do anniston honestly, because ive tried several games this isnt that courthouse theres only a couple of places to go eat lunch around there. Now, i dont know if theyre getting any extra security because of this case, but typically they dont and its interesting to see whos eating lunch with who, who just went were nodal said whos going on the brakes with who when they get a break, whos going to get a soda with who . And you try to figure and then you go back and you look at the sheet is that were not oh, creates like okay. Well, this guys a bus driver and hes hanging out with this woman who is an accountant. And you end the truth is, we dont know what the heck were talking about its all its all who knows whos going to say these people have been together there now for weeks. So personalities are kicking in. There are people that like each other. There are people for sure that do not like each other on i can to each other before deliberation or not, youre not supposed to discuss the case, but they have to talk about something oh i dont have much experience of court, but i testify once in front of a jury and i was interested that some of them were very attentive, some of them clearly were bored by just not wanting to be there and no interest. What i was saying im watching this jury as a spectator two weeks ago, they were intensely watching this. None of them in board to be none of them seemed to be thinking about something else. Well, this is riveting stuff. This is, you know, maybe the most exciting i thought my testimony was well, not that your testimony wasnt riveting. Im sure, but i mean, this is just such this is a historical event that theyre taking part of. And what you see is we havent lost any jurors, which is extremely unusual in a trial of this line nobody is going to drop if they can help or not. Let me ask you about something that arthur said very loudly recently is theres a jury offended, theres a jury you dont even need supply route heres theres a Jury Instruction that says if someone lies about one thing you can discredit all their testimony. Do jurors do that or do they moore pick and choose what they choose to believe . Luck, they make their decision and then they back into it. However, theyre going to back into it, right . They look at the case holistically. And then if they have to pick and choose to reach their decision, thats what theyre gonna do. And thats just the way it works. Fine, people going with their gut like i trust this person who testified, i dont trust this person. I like this first, i didnt like them where i didnt like them, but i believe what theyre saying and going without rather than the minutia of i think i think people start with their gut and then they back into the logic. I dont know that its the logical progression that you might think it is. So you know, how they feel about Michael Cohen is going to have a big impact. But i think he did some interesting things today. One, he had an opportunity to say that donald trump either told him were didnt tell him that he had an intimate relationship with Stormy Daniels and he didnt do that. And i know you as a prosecutor probably would have said, well, if hes going to lie, he would allied better. That was a perfect opportunity for him to Say Something to bury donald trump. And he didnt do it. That shows these credible eye contact because there were moments where there are probably three moments where he would really look at the jury, but there were a lot of moments where hed answer a question from the prosecutor and then shed start and asking another one, and then hed look at the jury to kind of see like how they how they took it, but it wasnt looking at them as he was answering. Does that make a difference in how they if theyve trust them, i advise witnesses when theyre testifying, do whats comfortable to you, dont dont if youre not comfortable making eye contact with the jury, dont do it. If your field more comfortable looking at the person thats questioning you, do that. Its really you have to be natural and authentic. Thats the most important thing and testifying, im a big believer to renata as point in, just the gutting instinct, i think so much of this comes down to god. I mean, i had an experience where once we tried to case, we put on a really bad guy is a cooperator, and ten of the 12 jurors just outright rejected him, didnt like him, thought he was scary, rejected his testimony, that jury hang ten wanted to wait wait for the ending. Now, we reach tried it they convicted on everything, including on things that were solely based Uncorroborated On that cooperators testimony. So its probably because they liked you, maybe just a little and they felt clips, but honestly, it could just be as simple as that. Wed liked this layer. We dont like to start is 12 human beings like this cooperator. We dont like an optical, is it to have somebody who has lived repeatedly in the past . Well, heres, heres the thing is obviously a huge obstacle, but, but just because hes lied in the past, they could say if he is credible about this, like i said, the Stormy Daniel thing, i think he did himself a favor but i think there was there was one interesting thing that he said was the 375,000 that he was getting paid. If you do the math and divide that by 12, thats 31,000 and change that sort of leinz up with the 35,000 he was getting a month, which is what the trump team is going to argue that these were legitimate payments for legal fees every month. So i thought that was a very interesting thing with this case is that theres theres almost like a Crystal Clear common sense argument about what happened. But then the legal part of it actually feels to me quite complex. And if youre on the jury, how how do you think the jury is going to deal with that . Theres the part that kind of seems obvious. Yeah, this was about the campaign. Yeah. Trump didnt want people well to know. Yes, he didnt want to do it the right way because it would have been illegal. But but proving the elements of the crime its the dri going to have a hard time with that . Yes. I think theyre going to struggle, but i think we all tried to make decisions in the most straightforward and easy and simple way we can and one way theyre going to start that process is theyre going to go into the jury room and theyre gonna say, do you believe Michael Cohen, but to your point, you and ive worked on trials together and i will be seeing this. It doesnt matter that donald trump has see Anything Else whos joe biden sitting . Now id be saying the same thing. Its not gonna be easy. This isnt the kind of cases that you see in state court where it straight up bribery. What did he do . He told me you do this. Ill give you this amount of money, like even the menendez case down the block. This is like complicated legal issues that basically what theyre saying is two misdemeanors outside the statute of limitations. If you put them together, you get a felony thats inside the statue of limitations but conflict with rd, but the defense made it easy. Because theyre saying straight up these war 35,000 legal payments, you either believe that or you dont if you dont believe it, theyre going to convict him. Well, let me just very quickly, would you have wanted to jurors on the two lawyers on this . I am very squeamish about lawyers on any jury, unless you are really confident about what theyre gonna do, look, we dont know the names of the jurors. The parties do they know a lot more about them than we do so they might know something we dont. Stay veal. Thank you. Great to have your expertise. Thanks, everyone. Programming know before we hand off tonight this friday at three 60 special my replay of my interview with Karen Mcdougals, you just saw i talked her back in 2018 right after the story broke of her alleged affair with former president , something he denies. Its the only tv interview shes done. Watch the interview this friday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. The news continues, including cnn Special Coverage of the Trump Hush Money Trial right after if youre living with hiv imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills good to go off the grid good to go nonstop with kevin uva. 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