Listen wherever you get your podcasts closed captioning is brought to you by skechers. Go walk pads skechers go on. Pants are breathable and flexible with a comfy, soft feel, plus they have front and rear pile i gets including a hidden zip security bucket. Try sketches affordable, go walk pants good evening. Welcome to cnn special primetime coverage. The trump hush money trial, the first ever criminal trial bill, former president , theres a lot to bring you from a truncated but busy day six. That saw the judge wanted Defense Attorney. Hes losing credibility. Also testimony from david pecker, the former tabloid publisher, who became the Trump Campaigns, eyes and ears. And tonight new reporting and discussions are underway about what to do if the former president is actually jailed for contempt quite a de, a lot to get to judge merchans warning came as trump attorney todd blanche tried to answer prosecution evidenced during Contempt Hearing with the jury, not present, the judge saying, quote, youre losing all credibility with the court, but making no decision on the matter. Then testimony continued from david pecker, who took jurors deeper into the world of catch and kill, detailing how his National Enquirer or sought out stories that might damage the Trump Campaign in order to catch them and then bury them. Afterwards, the cameras rolling viewers watching the former president s spoke out about not being allowed, he believes to speak out a gag, order, which to me is totally i got situation or im not allowed to talk with people are allowed to talk about me so they can talk about me, they can say whatever they want, they can live but im not allowed to sit back look at my conflicted, judge, me to have a table. I dont think anybody is will nor has anyone seen what might happen if hes jail for violating that order, which to be fair does not yet appear to be on the table. Seems unlikely that said theres Breaking News on discussions underway on how that might work. And well bring that to you in our special coverage tonight, joining us this criminal Defense Attorney, are there 1 bestselling author and former federal prosecutors, jeffrey toobin, cnn anchors Kaitlan Collins and abby phillip. Cnn senior legal analyst, elie honig, and cnns kara scannell, who watched the proceedings today from inside the courtroom. Caroline, start with you. What was like donald trump was there at the Defense Table again, this time sitting across from his longtime friend, david pecker, who was getting into the actual heart of this testimony because the day before he was setting the table to explain to the jury what the National Enquirer was and what they did. And today, it was its really bringing them into this alleged conspiracy this august 20 meeting where donald trump, david pecker, Michael Cohen, all hatch this catch and kill scheme and made the decision that they were going to bury some stories, promote negative stories made up, stories about some rivals, all to help Donald Trumps campaign and david pecker really the underscored that today. And then of course getting into some of these these two of the three catch and kill deals, both the one involving the doorman, one involving Karen Mcdougal and all throughout the time, david pecker was very composed think a credible witness. He was im being specific in his testimony, and he was addressing the jury for most of the time. At the time, donald trump was variously intently watching david pecker and then otherwise looking, appearing to either be staring off or looking at this monitor in front of him, which actually gives a feedback as the Video Feedback that plays in the Overflow Courtroom and so hes kinda watching himself, watched the trial, so to speak. Thats come surreal i mean, its actually the david pecker was made the point several times today that they were he was doing this to benefit the campaign. He wasnt he didnt say he was doing it to benefit to protect Donald Trumps family. It was to benefit the campaign thats the theory. Thats the prosecution theory, and thats what theyre really trying to establish that this was not about helping donald trump preserve his marriage. This was a conspiracy to get donald trump elected president. The question is, and i think it was a coherent theory about all the ways that pecker was going to help donald trump wheres the crime . Thats the question is a Magazine Editor helping someone get elected president . Thats what magazines do in this country. The expenditure of money is allegedly the crime, but you can be sure that im on crossexamination. Pecker is going to be talked to. Theyre going to say, you know, youre just supporting the candidate you wanted. Thats what magazines do, right . Kaitlan, how do you think it did . Im not sure thats what all magazines do not its if people would like to have a word, but i think its watching all this play out. Its fascinating to see david pecker sitting there and testify in this way, and theyre laying the groundwork to get to something bigger. Obviously, with all of this and with his relationship with trump. But he met marla. He met trump, visited maralago, met him in the 80s, worked with them in the 90s, worked with him when the apprentice became a show, trump would send him Apprentice Ratings and they would publish them. And the National Enquirer and david pecker was kind of saying it was this mutually beneficial relationship between the two of them, this twoway street. And then you he was helping promote trump. And then when he got closer to the election, he was helping berry negative stories she had never he talked about. It, never done that before. Ive never paid anyone for a story related to donald trump until it was the door man who has shopped chocolate, the shopping around an untrue story about Trump Fathering A child out of wedlock. But still, they were worried about it and mainly he kept making the point. I only wanted to keep it out of the press and so did Michael Cohen until after the election action and so that was the key point that they really got david pecker to make today, which was saying things were different as we got closer to the 2016 election, are there what did you think of pecker . Well, i mean you got to just backup before even takes the stand. The prosecutor opens Opening Statement this is a conspiracy. And whos in the conspiracy while trump, pecker and cone. Now, there is no Conspiracy Charge. They could have easily charged some form of a conspiracy if they could have figured that out. But one of the reasons why i dont think they tried to even charge of conspiracy is you have three people and conspiracy two of them are gonna be witnesses. Once a defendant why usually its one cooperator and two defendants, not the other way around. Additionally, anderson, he got immunity not a cooperation agreement. Immunity, which goes to jeffries point. I think there is really no we havent spoken about a crime yet. There is no crime at this point. Everything hes talking about, theres nothing in the Penal Law Catch And Kill Theory is criminal. So thats obviously in summation, the process, the defense is going to focus on who this guy is and where hes all about. But heres what they have to get out in crossexamination isnt it true, mr. Pecker, that one point, mr. Trump said in addition to the Campaign Millennials need to hear about this. Its only need is for that m ms. Yes, he was concerned about melannie. He was concerned about baron because its gotta be that the expenditure is 100 for him to become president of the United States. Im sorry, thats wrong. Thats just not the law. It does not have to be 100 . I see jeffries agreeing with me. It does not have to be 100 campaign related. Those campaigns should be both. I wanted to predict the campaign, but also i was worried about my wife. Yes. The campaign has to be a substantial factor, does not but three, 100 and nobody would ever be able to prove that my view of david pecker today as he was a rock solid start for the prosecutors. Youre not going to win your case that the first witness, its a mistake to try to do that. I agree that if the case ended right now, wed have no crime made out. So hes sort of setting the table exactly what i think he did. That was really the interesting is he took the jurors inside this cd unseemly world of catching kill and what happens behind the scenes at the National Enquirer, he painted a very vivid picture, even just following along with the updates as we were doing real time, it was riveting and he explained how this world works. He explained who the key players are. He explained what the relationships are that Michael Cohen is sort of Donald Trumps lieutenant and dylan howard was his lieutenant. He explained the chains of communication, so im not gonna win at all with one shot right off the bat. But i think its a good start by the way prosecutors should not be highfiving in the beginning, middle, or end of direct. Its all about cross because then youre going to have a good defense are like arthur aye dollar trying to tear you down and the will score points. I got asked you this question. If heres the problem with this, okay. We dont exactly know what that secondary crime is. Right . So you and i are talking about election law. Were not talking about whether he fully sulfide. I think its opening shock pace that he puts something in his books that warrants wasnt accurate. But what if he put down i bought this suit to be present to run for my prints president ial campaign but he was going to wear it also to a wedding. He cant write that off. Its not a campaign expense. Its gotta be Campaign Expenses are this is my Campaign Headquarters on paying rent for it. And im only running my campaign out of it. He cant say im running my campaign out of it and im doing some real estate. But its not a campaign. But if they were had this meeting theres now infamous meeting with Michael Cohen and pecker and trump in 2015. And the whole purpose of the meeting was, what can i do to help your campaign . Isnt that setting up the framework for what they still work gets them to intent and thats the secondary part of the crime. Trump is charged with falsifying business records, but with the intent to conceal or commit another crime, and prosecutors were talking about this in court today with the jury out of the courtroom. This thats what theyre trying to prove with david pecker that the intent was to violate new York State Campaign finance laws, which is just to promote a candidate. Its more artful than that, but but thats the essence youre spending money to influence a campaign. There are laws that regulate how that money can be spent. Is that is that what youre saying . Thats how much you can give. First of all, weigh less than 130,000 and that you have to report it. And i think its worthwhile to step back and just reflect on what exactly the charges are here. And i think arthurs doing an effective job of showing where some of the questions are going to be raised. But the core charges here, you have to start with falsifying business records. So this goes to what we were just talking about. They paid this money to Stormy Daniels to hush her for the election and the allegations they falsified the payments they may try to make it look like an attorneys legal fees retainer and the argument is theres the falsification and you have to tie that to donald trump, which is not gonna be easy. And then the back half of it is you have to show that the motivation was political, not 100 , but that is substantial portion of the motivation was published. And this is where i think that the nature of David Packers relationship with donald trump changing in time 2015 is going to be critical information for the jury. They were friends for a very long time. They were in this cdd york world, donald trump was as someone put it, a friend of peckers they had that close relationship, but it wasnt until 2015. Thats suddenly david pecker was talking to Michael Cohen every single day, almost trying to give them advice about where the story, the bad stories are there, the nature of the relationship changed when trump started running for president , which suggests that the motivation was the election that was right there. And what we learn today that was also different than what i had remembered being characterized at the time when there was a lot of reporting the Wall Street Journal whatnot when we were covering the white house was it was written that august 2015 meeting that pecker had gotten said, what can i do to help your campaign . But what he testified to today was that trump sought this meeting with him, that Michael Cohen set it up. Then when they went to the meeting, they asked how david pecker could help with the campaign, that it was the reversal they were asking him how he could help not him asking them. Theres a history here which makes the prosecutions case i think even a little bit stronger the relationship between pecker trump was one of hero worship period. I mean, it pecker revered trump i wrote about, i wrote about pecker in 2017 in the new yorker. This was no, right . Well, before which i reread the other day and we yes, it was a trip down memory lane, but one of the odd facts that i always remember from that story is that you mentioned it briefly. He actually published a vanity magazine called trumps style, which when you checked into a trump hotel, it would be there with a gideons bible that you got you got a free copy but it was so over the top in its praise of trump in his style and his wealth and his glamour. And that was how pecker saw trump. But in 2015, he took that hero worship in, turned it to the campaign and it makes sense. And its its really beneficial because pecker talks about, they surveyed the audience of the National Enquirer about a trump run. And it was overwhelmingly positive trump was a fixture in that magazine, but the viewership wanted to hear about trump two in a positive way, perhaps not. So i went in the new yorker, you cite an example. I dont know if you were listening in on the call of a of a call in the among National Enquirer editors about stories. There is a Story Pitch Meeting and thats how the piece opens up their pitching a story about i think Melania Trump not holding down from his hand or something. And david pecker says on the call, well, i didnt see that. And then they tried to pitch the story again, which was a negative story about trump occur again, says, i didnt see that and theyd get this sense. Move on. Right . Well, and i went to editorial meetings of the National Enquirer where they decided what was on the cover every week and pecker was very active in this. It was all about the cover for all about the cover and they had lists of who sold and who didnt Jennifer Anniston sold Jennifer Lopez didnt sell. I dont know why, but thats true. They also had words that sold or didnt sell on the cover. Tragic last days, always sold. Also the light stays live. I live in clinton were elected, but trumps sold. That was the thing that in addition to this this may come out and Cross Examination that in addition to the fact that that pecker wanted to help trump that during the campaign 2015, 2016 trump was good for the inquire. Thats what youre suggesting abbe in the sense that it was mutually beneficial because when they put him on the cover, its sold and david pecker said that today. He said we needed it at the time yeah coming up next, ill look at the Trial Transcript that we just got some of the key and detailed moments from inside the courtroom and more would david pecker said about the catch and kill scheme designed to protect the man he said was known as the most eligible bachelor also, what Karen Mcdougal, one of the women who story he caught and killed, told me about the deal sciutto, what is the point of the lawsuit smile. You found it the feeling of findings, psoriasis cant filter out the real you. 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Buy one line of unlimited, get one free for a year with Xfinity Mobile plus, save even more and get an eligible 5g phone on us visit xfinitymobile. Com today. Every shell powering progress im romo, the Georgia State capitol in atlanta. This is cnn news. Now we have the full transcript, transcript from the trial today. And even though virtually nothing happens in core without a team of reporters posting it online, almost in real time, even the fast since reporter can capture the scope and the sweep and the full context of the complete record. Does Cnns John Berman has been going through and including more of david pecker testimony in the catch and kill scheme and the heart of the case, some of the deals with former playboy model Karen Mcdougal, who story of her alleged relationship with trump was caught and killed by david pecker before we bring your details to the transcript, i just want to play for you what Karen Mcdougal told me in Early Television interview about why she decided to tell her story i feel like the contract is illegal. I feel like i wasnt presented correctly. I was lied to and everybody involved in this deal i want the rights back, and i want to share my truth because everyone else is talking about my truth, which i need to share my story. Do you have any regrets about the relationship . Did you say you had with him back then . Yeah the only regret i have about the relationship that i had with donald was the fact that he was married in john berman. Join me. Im john even dig deeper into transcript what what stands out. First of all, this is the transcript of just today, so you can see how much paper comes out here and the port where they talk about Karen Mcdougal, was at the very end of todays hearing, the prosecution saved Karen Mcdougal part in any here david pecker recounts being pulled out of a meeting from a phone call by donald trump to ask about the various whispers have been going on about Karen Mcdougal. We dont have graphics in this, but let me read this to you. Pecker says in the testimony, he mentioned to me, he said i spoke to michael Michael Cohen. He said he told me about that time. He told me about that. He said he told me about karen. He said to me, what do you think this is pecker saying the trump asked him, what do you think about Karen Mcdougal pecker goes on to say, i believe you should buy it. I believe you trump should by the Karen Mcdougal story, trump said to me, look, everything he says, i dont by stories and he said that anytime you do anything like this, it always gets out for says, i still believe we should take the story off the market. Trump says, let me think about it and ill have Michael Cohen call you in a few days in this, we do have a graphic of later in the testimony, pecker talks about how he was speaking to Michael Cohen. This is josh steinglass, the prosecutor. How would you describe Michael Cohens tone during those calls about Karen Mcdougal pecker he says michael was very agitated. It looked like he was getting a lot of pressure to get the answer like right away steinglass asked, what makes you say that pecker says he kept on calling in each time he called, he seemed more anxious. Steinglass says, did you understand did you understand as to where that pressure to find out more was coming from . Pecker says, will you know, i assumed he had a conversation with mr. Trumps mr. Trump was asking Michael Cohen, did we hear anything yet . You would have objection. I can assume surgery or the word assume objection. Luck. You we jump it up before i was i mean, testified i assume this or i assume that thats not those are in fact, so objection. Right. Apologize for my answer i do find the transcript fascinating. Im dying to read it and actually a friend of mine, jim walden who was a brilliant attorney. Hes the one who filed the motion asking for the daily transcript to be released. The people who arent too happy about it with the Court Reporters who get paid daly kopan, do this, but, you know, again, these arent crimes like nothing that you just spoke about is a crime Michael Cohen been anxious, is not a crime. It just means that something that theyre interested in, and thatll be relationship changing in 2015, we nownow that when you declare yourself for public office, whether its City Council Person or president , United States they come out, theyre coming to get you, which is now why we dont get good people running for office anymore because they go back to high school and see what you did back then. So im not surprised that once trump goes from being a tv star and real estate magnet to being president United States. All these people come out and yeah, its a mutually beneficial to sign. To help each other to me the anxiety of Michael Cohen was spoke to the pressure from trump assumed from trumps. So i mean, thats the only reason that that matters. But the other thing i would just note, i mean, the Karen Mcdougal story is not over. This is just the beginning of what we will learn about this. Karen mcdougal story. And when you look at the charges jeong documents here for trump, there are some hints about where this goes next david pecker ends up paying her, but at some point, he decides to not get reimbursed from trump wod and im curis as to why that happened. So ts is the opening salvo, but theres more to come. So again, youre not going to find the crime a to z found in any one paragraphf testimony, prosecutors have to build a case here. I think two things jump out at mfrom the transcriptone,his is a full nine alarm fire in trump wld in the National Enquirer in peckerenvironment, they are i mean, theyre pulling each other out of meetings. Borderline panicking. The other thing is that a establishes a really important chain of communication because this is one of the rare instances. Theres a few were david pecker has direct contact with donald trump. Most of its with Michael Cohen. And the weakness that arthur just pointed out is, well, how do you know that Michael Cohen was truly acting nt assume youre right. You maybe Michael Cohewas just a free agent Michael Cohen, its not super reliable, but the chaihere is david pecker makes contact with donald trump, who Eentiallyands Hioff to micel cohensays, cohens going to handle th yoube, go and do your thing. Ill have Michael Cohen ca you back in a few ys. One of e things though david pecker said today and correct me if im wrong the stand, was that according to him trump was very detailed oriented and acally paid attention to a this transaction. Hes not saying that he was aware that the line item was a legal fee, but hes indicating trump was very much involved in this. And what you just read, john also backs that up,hat accordg to cohen and were cen will probably testifies that dold trump isreathing down his neck very closely following the Ren Mcdougal He talked aut how he would sit with ump in trumtower on the 26th floor would comen and brg him time invoices and checks, which i thought was a really notable moment. I have that. I can read and donald trump would sign it. I can read that this is from page 1002 of the transfer script signing check steinglass. Joshua steinglass, the prosecutor asked, did you have occasion over the years to observe mr. Trumps Business Practices pecker response . Yes. Josh steinglass asked in what Context Pecker responds. I was i had a meetingith mr. Trump in his office and when i was there, his assistant, rona brought in a batch of invoices and checks to sign in. I observe mr. Trump and i noticed that he reviewed the invoice and looked at the check and then he would he was signing em. Things. First of all, its very important that e prosecution established that donald trump signed knew what knew what the corporate records were. Thats what this whole case is about. The other thing that tells you is that david pecker is not on team trump that when i was three well, i agree with you. Ill tell you why not tell you one good reason because cause in 2000 shark moves on the remorse fishes all alone okay. I agree with, but he could also be you could have figured out a way to charge him. But way to say dead. David. Course before the cart. I mean, this is witness number one. He has even been crossexamined yet there is still a lot of road love to go here i. Think what theyre establishing though is that trump paid very close attention to what we all know, his finances. He doesnt part easily with his money. I was looking Karen Mcdougal wrote a lot down about her relationship with trump when they were having this alleged affair, which trump denies, but she wrote down that trump was so careful with his money and he was so worried about creating a paper trail of their relationship that she what book her travel when they would meet places and trump would reimburse. Lets just step back for a second. If a married guy is having an affair and and having sex allegedly with a porn star and its starting to unravel hes going to pay very close attention. I would imagine to every detail of how this is being hushed up. I mean, is this not just this is not something you would put i dont care if hes the Topic Executive of whatever you would think this is actually something i would actually want to know all the details and thats why he wanted to know. He wanted he says that at one Michael Cohen, this has to be paid in cash, doesnt mean at one point hes talking about this needing to be done in cat. Thats on a tape that michael kight, were gonna here soon in this trial, Michael Cohen secretly recorded donald trump a shady move, by the way, i asked, id for Defense Lawyers in the green room with me today. I said, have you ever even thought about absolutely something that threatens your marriage . Are you going to leave it up to Michael Cohen . Well, but every detail without checking, like being an overlord, thats what common sense rational person would do. But the tape that were talking about here that Michael Collins it makes up donald trump actually suggests donald trump is like just get it done. Hes not in the weeds. In fact, at one point, Michael Cohen says none and i got it. Alan and i are going to handle you dont worry about it. Were going to pay him. You dont worry about the how and the how is the crime. So when that tape comes up, thats gonna be a problem for the prosecutor. I also think the part of the thing about trump paying attention to details is more, more to what caitlin was saying, which is the amount of money even for a very rich person like donald trump, he didnt really want to part ways with 150,000 for Karen Mcdougal, 134 stormy. He did not want to part ways with that money his attorneys tried to get out of it once the election was over, so its really about the dollar here that was concerning to him when we come back at decision still looming for trump and whether he violated the judges gag order multiple times. Hearing earlier did not go well for the trump attorney with the judge warning trumps lawyer at what point that he was losing all credibility more than that ahead to me harlem is home. But home is also your body. Last one, everyone i asked myself, why does it pilates existed . Carla. So i started my own studio get in a brickandmortar in new york is not easy. Chaser inke supported us from studio one to studio three. 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The judges decision, but the hearing did not go well for the defense. Judge merchan repeatedly showing frustration with Defense Attorney todd blanche for failing. He said to offer any facts in his defense of his clients Social Media Posts and reposts about two likely witnesses and jurors judge merchan saying, at one point, mr. Blanche, you are losing all credibility. Here are some of the posts that prosecutors flagged as violations. This one on april 10 from trump on truth, social writing look, what was just found with the fake news. Will the fake news report it . It was above a photo of a 2018 statement from Stormy Daniels denying her relationship with trump another three days later, trashing Michael Cohen, the witness asking, Quote Has Disgraced Attorney and felon Michael Cohen been prosecuted for lying four days after that, a repost of a foxhole slamming Perspective Jurors allegedly undercover liberal active, alleging i should say, undercover liberal activists are quote, lying to the judge in order to get on the trunk jury the prosecution also brought up this remark from the former president outside the courtroom just yesterday what are they going to look at all the lives that last line in the last trial so he got caught lying, pure lime where do they get a look at that prosecutors say that two was another violation. Theyd be finding another order to show cause today and just tonight, trump blasted cohen again in an interview with a local station, philadelphia, calling him a liar with no credibility. Prosecutors are seeking the maximum 1,000 fine for each violation back with our panel also joining us is Olivia Washington correspondent for new York Magazine and former pennsylvania federal judge, john e jones. Jones. Judge jones, let me start with you. What do you make of the judges rebuking trumps attorney like that . Well, ill tell you what. Anderson ive been in this situation and under relentless questioning from a judge sometimes an attorney is just out of ammo and i think thats exactly what happened today. Would todd blanche and, you he cant retreat. Hes got a difficult client theres no question in my mind that former President Trump violated the gag order at least in part. Sometimes an attorney will look at you when youre the Presiding Judge and his eyes kinda convey it. Look a judge, i got nothing. I mean, ive ive used all ive used all emo that i have your Attorney Panelists its will identify has gotten that same attorney every now and then yeah. Well they will and its sort of a besieging luck. Sometimes i go to sidebar and said, look, i know, judge, you want me to answer that question. Ive given you all that. I have at this point. So it was like the charge of the light brigade. He had to just keep going. At that point until finally, merchan got frustrated and made that comment about his credibility i do have some empathy for him because frankly, a lot of that was indefensible and i dont think he had an explanation that he could render for it and good conscience judge, the Secret Service and other Law Enforcement are preparing for the very long shot possibility should say hey, that trump might be incarcerated for violating the gag order. Its highly unlikely would ever get to that point, isnt it hes not going to incarcerate him. I dont think now under any circumstances, you know, he could make a statement a a financial penalty on some of the violations. I think the problem, as i said yesterday, is that hes going to have to tighten this order up. Because there are instances where there is a collision between the former president s First Amendment rights and whats happening here. Theres another point that i would make here. I dont follow Michael Cohen on social media, but if i were the judge, i might call the prosecution aside. And say, look, i know hes not your client, but hes your witness. Tell him to stop posting because in a sense, hes hes inciting the former president. Thats not a justification. For violating the gag order, but fair is fair. And i think you have to manage this thing as it moves forward, as the Presiding Judge, i think thats one option. He could also drop a gag order on everybody yeah, i suppose le do you think any other defendant would have been thrown in jail . Thats pretty drastic. I mean, lets lets understand. First of all, its very rare to have a gag order in place. And in any case this type of defiance though, is something ive never seen before to have somebody. I think the judge is clearly going to find most or all of these now, 11 alleged violations to have been met the big question i have is whats the judge going to do the next step . Because there will be a next chapter. Im sure this will not be the end of donald trump violating discount Michael Cohen on the way to Ice Gag Order hearing this morning. Thats what youve recorded the interview with the local philadelphia station trump, did that this morning and theyd gotten the motorcade and drove to the courthouse and had this tensions hearing where he was seated in the judge has an option. Im pleased. Its not that hes not violating the gag order. His argument is primarily that he shouldnt be under a gag order. Right. So hes not trying to say this is not what im doing. Hes trying to say im the president. We were in the courtroom yesterday generally speaking, what is the dynamic lag between the judge the Trump Legal Team . Very interesting. You can see that hes just getting totally accessed exhausted by dealing with them and the other day, they had to smack down moment where the judge said at a certain point and paraphrasing but at a certain point, you are just going to have to accept my decisions and accept that this is my courtroom basically. And it seemed like it reached another another moment of blows today where the judges just losing patience let me say that in my Opinion Defense is doing theyre doing their job when the judge like, oh, theres too many motions is 20 motions anderson in the last case i was involved in with the judge said there was too many motions. There was a conviction and guess what . The Appellate Court reversed on those too many motions and throw the case out. It wasnt even a reversal. It was they throw it out altogether. But on the flip side and i agree with the federal judges with us there are some things that a client does better indefensible, and you have to walk that line. I mean, youd never want a trial judge on the second day of testimony to say, counselor it losing credibility. If not, you cannot lose credibility with the judge or a jury youre done. Let me judge jones, go ahead theres another point. And again, i think the attorneys and the panel will identify with this theres nothing more maddening for a lawyer. I dont care whether its a prosecutor or Defense Attorney to have somebody sitting next to you buzzing in your ear and banging your Shoulder Poking you and pass a notes to you when youre trying to concentrate. In this case . In this case, todd blanche is dring to concentrate on incoming fire from the judge and hes got the former president United States buzzing in his ear about whats happening. This is a miserable position for an attorney to be in and it just really rough to get through it. This was not a good day. For todd blanche i hope he gets good night sleep because this is tough. I mean, this is the kind of this the kind of client who has lawyers wake you up in the middle of night in a cold sweat. I mean, this is very, very difficult situation. Why lawyers have ativan prescription todd blanche doesnt have a judge problem. He has a client problem. I mean, this the issue here is he has multiple audiences. Hes trying to win the case in front of the jury, but hes got a please, donald trump and a lot of what he said, i thought of this an Opening Statements as well, where he was talking about calling him President Trump, and talking about enormous difference to his client that is not necessarily a way to win this case, but it is a way to keep your client had happy and thats going to be a challenge for blanche throughout this whole. Trump says that these, these alleged violations were political speech, even if they were doesnt a judges gag order supersede that . Yes, they do. But it just goes down to should there be a gag order to begin with again, with our colleague whos the judge said, Michael Cohen is Kinda Baiting him. I think thats going to work to the defense. And hell be crossexamined on all these most recent tweets and all that stuff. But it is i look, i was in that position with the Harvey Weinstein trial. Yeah. We had a gag order on us and every day after quote, we were you leaving we cant say a word and theres gloria. All right. Having these huge Press Conference beating the heck out of us, glorifying the witnesses, but jurors are walking past her as she saying these wonderful things about these witnesses and didnt say a word, but i think what you said, ive never seen someone violating gag order the way donald trump i mean, we were very good and to mr. Weinsteins again, even think about violating the granite for trump is going to love being compared to Harvey Weinstein i want to play the assembler that i mentioned in the intro, trump began attacking Michael Cohen. Its from an interview he did today with our affiliate wpvi Michael Cohen is a convicted liar and hes got no credibility whatsoever. He was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers so yeah that seems like a pretty clear pretty sure. Its pretty straightforward the places where its not so straightforward is three tweets and the amplifications perhaps of his opinion maybe, but maybe not threats or violence. I mean, i think what the judge mentioned, maybe there is room here to kurt to put a little bit more of a barrier around what exactly is in this gag order because right now a lot of things could qualify and it almost seems like trump is pushing the boundaries of what it all could be just to kinda get under the skin of the court and to prove that he is not subject to this gag order perhaps a more specific gag order that it really does limit trump and the threats that he can make against witnesses and people who are part of this proceedings might tamp down on trumps sort of defiance instinct, which can really kicks in and moments like judges. So it made clear when he was expanding the gag order, is this affecting the judicial proceedings and throwing off the entire case . And weve already had two jurors who are concerned about the media attention. This case is getting in the scrutiny that they are getting after. As the prosecutors are pointing out today, some host on other networks were being really detailed about the details of who these jurors were, what they did, where they live. And so it is a real concern about juror safety as well. And trump is now commenting on the jury, judge, and then we have to go i think from the judges standpoint, i would just say i talked about from todd blanche to stay up what this is a really rough situation for judge merchan he has to be its super clinical in doing this and be really careful how he deals with the whatever his order is going to be in the in the sanctions case. Tough stuff for the judge to more special covers coming up after a quick break, were going to talk to a former prosecutor investigated. Dont trump in a different case, well be right back. 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In Donald Trumps criminal hush money trial, the Prosecution Defense in both talked about this case as an effort to influence an election. They disagree whoever on whether or not crime was committed. In Opening Statements, prosecutors argued that trump is guilty of a planned coordinated, longrunning conspiracy to influence the 2016 election the defense countered in their Opening Statements saying, i have a spoiler alert. Theres nothing wrong with trying to influence an election. Its called democracy joining us the coauthors of the trump indictments, andrew weissman, who was a Lead Prosecutor and Mueller Investigation and Nyu Law Professor Melissa Murray so you hear trumps attorneys say theres nothing illegal about trying to influence an election. Its called democracy. If a person or a company spends money to benefit a campaign doesnt that money have to be disclosed and reported, isnt that the core of this yeah. I mean, you know, literally what todd blanche said is true that it influencing the election. If that is the only thing that was proved, thats not a crime, but it sort of hide the ball which is howre you doing it . If you are a corporation and youre spending money when youre prohibited from doing that. Thats a crime if you are spending more than the maximum, what you can contribute thats a crime so it was one of those things that reads like a good bumper sticker. But i think thats one of the reasons i think at the state tried to get a very smart jury because the smart jury and a long trial, you basically can break that all down to explain why those slogans dont work here. Melissa, what is the underlying crime . Say its a new york election law that basically says it is a crime and misdemeanor crime for an individual to prevent or promote the election of another individual. And so here are the allegation is that by capturing these stories for donald trump, preventing them from being disclosed, paying off these individuals all of this is basically favorable treatment for donald trump in addition to the fact that david pecker also testified today that he was planting favorable stories and also running disk favorable stories, unfavorable stories for Donald Trumps opponents. So thats a big contribution, and thats the way the prosecution is framing. This was a big up for Donald Trumps campaign and it essentially constituted Election Fraud so in your opinion, when don trump comes out and says it will look, i was paying a lawyer and we said legal fees. Whats wrong with that . Whats the answer to that . So in this case, its not just legal fees which professor where do, sorry, go into motion in this case. Its not simply that hes paying Michael Cohen. Its about Michael Cohen is being read is reimbursing. Theyre paying these payments to Stormy Daniels. Theres the work that david pecker just doing and bringing in, coordinating all of this together. And thats sort of the misdemeanor part. Theres also the Tax Fraud Issue that is also been pointed to, hasnt been brought up. And david pecker is testimony. I think it will come out later on thursday, but the idea that donald trump had to gross up Michael Cohen in order to make him whole for the payments because he is actually bursting him for what was being classified as payments for Legal Services, even though there had been no Legal Services rendered. So thats the given multi here. And i think what the prosecution is trying to show and theres a lot of discussion of Donald Trumps hands and all of this is that hes very much a micro manager. He is taking really close looks at what the money is, where the money is going to whom it is going and this is just david pecker and Michael Cohen doing his bidding, but he is the mastermind, essentially the puppet master, and they are simply the puppets jeff, the prosecutor questioning david pecker, noted today in court that the one in the election statutes, the case is based on does have a conspiracy provision. What does that say to you about the way that the prosecution is trying to frame well, i think theres a technical reason for that, which is under the hearsay laws. If there is a conspiracy, even if a conspiracy isnt charged, the other statements of other people can be used against the defendant, like for example if you believe that Michael Cohen is a member of this conspiracy and why isnt followed . The accountant is a member of the conspiracy. Their statements can be introduced at even though they are technically hearsay because there is a Conspiracy Charge thats thats very important, especially when we get into the money stuff where why isnt felled will not be a witness. Probably he looks like hes not going to testify but his documents and his handwriting will be introduced. And because theres a conspiracy that will be admissible against donald trump i mean, is it a weakness of the case that if there was a conspiracy, why are they charging conspiracy . Well, this is one of the weaknesses because of the timing of the charge. So the statute of limitations, the time period in which you had to bring a case that had passed with respect to misdemeanors. So thats why were all talking about well, what makes it a felony and it has to be in furtherance of or it has to be concealing some other crime. And so we look to the Election Laws or as melissa just talked about tax laws, because those Misdemeanor Charges can no longer be brought because statute has run, but theres a longer statute with respect to felony counts, and thats why what you have here is sort of the product of the federal government having sat on a tans for quite some time before this case was brought to manhattan. And then finally indicted this is melissa question about something she said earlier because i was a little i was it jumped out at me. I understand melissa, about how paying witnesses can be seen as part of a conspiracy, but you seem to say and correct me if im wrong, that advocacy on trumps behalf like the magazine supporting supporting trumps candidacy, that could be seen as part of a conspiracy, isnt there a First Amendment problem with that . Because magazines do support candidates all the time i think theres something i think ive said something different, geoffrey, the point that david pecker was making on the standard and what the prosecution elicited was that donald trump was coordinating with david pecker for this favorable treatment, i think in most campaigns you dont see that it may be the case that a newspaper or media outlet will endorse it a particular candidate. But i dont think weve ever seen a situation where a particular candidate goes to the outlet and negotiates with them for favorable treatment of his campaign. And unfavorable treatment of his opponent. So thats unusual. And the way the prosecution has framed yet this is essentially a psap to the Trump Campaign as though we were a contribution in kight. And thats a theory of the case, whether or not the jurors by this as a contribution, i think is a different story, but that seems to be where the prosecution is taking that this is a coordinated effort. It is unusual and extraordinary essentially amounts to the kinds of Influence Peddling that we typically dont see between the media account but the money is the core of it isnt it . I mean, the fact that yeah. I mean, that seems to me the strongest ground that the prosecution is on in that part of the case i think a big part of this too is its the details. Im like its their painting, a picture of a coordinated effort between donald trump, david pecker, and Michael Cohen. And yes, some of this is about the payments to the individual to the fact that donald trump is coordinating with david pecker over and over and over again that hes going to turn tower, that hes inviting david pecker to the opening of his campaign, the launch of his campaign all of this is to show that they are deeply implicated with one another. This isnt a oneoff. He is in Donald Trumps pocket and i think thats the point that the prosecution wants to make because it makes it much easier than to make the point that he is now working with Michael Cohen to catch these stories to kill these stories into advanced Donald Trumps electoral prospects. Summary, andrew weisman, thank you so much. Everyone else, a lot more ground to cover. Were going to go more on the Trial Transcript will advance some detail hills we havent heard yet. You write that this friday, you making this wave of the spring arrives. Let me come talk to you in shes like, never see here before you saying, i should be flattered its toxic and hilarious. Why mine your car because youre stupid, stupid. I know. 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