[laughter] if there is one form of music america is famous for having invented, it is jazz. Invented in the early part of the 20th century in new orleans, jazz has become synonymous with american music. Not just in the United States, but around the world. America has produced incredible jazz legends, like duke ellington, count basie, Dizzy Gillespie, Louis Armstrong. But today, at the top of the , is wynton marsalis, founder and director of jazz Lincoln Center. Hes a performer, educator, composer, and lives jazz 24 hours a day. Do you get tired of people calling you a jazz legend . [laughter] do you feel older when they say that to you . Wynton i like the word jazz, i dont like the legend. [laughter] david lets talk about your family for a moment. Sadly, your father passed away in april at the age of 85 because of covid. It must have been a very sad loss, because you were very close to him, of course. Wynton for all of us, me, my brother, we loved him so much. He was such an example for us. Andhe was such a kind man, a man with a large worldview, and a large person. He didnt do small things. He was very philosophical. He wasnt a touchyfeely person. He was from that generation where there wasnt a lot of hugging and i love yous going on, but underneath, there was a resolve and seriousness, and just kind of a deep love. Not just for us, but he had many students who loved him and loved to tell stories about him. And he supported a lot of us. David for those who may not be familiar, your father was a very , very prominent jazz pianist. When you were growing up, you obviously looked up to your father. Was he someone who said i want you to be a trumpet player, a jazz trumpet player . Where did he not push you into that . Wynton he didnt push any of us into anything. I always hung out with him. My father really struggled when i was growing up. He was trying to play modern jazz in an era of segregation. Population a populace that didnt like that style of music. Much of my experience of going to sparsely populated clubs with him in colorful areas. I loved to go because i was always the only kid in the room. This started when i was 3, 4, 5 years old, and continued until i got into high school and started to work myself. But i always went with him and identified with his struggle, really, because he continued to play, even though he didnt get audience support. He was not well known, was not famous, he struggled financially. He never complained and was very highminded in his belief in jazz and belief in the necessity of it as a tool for healing people and raising consciousness, things like that. David when you were growing up, you experienced racial discrimination, because it was a segregated area . Is that right . Wynton that defined the entire , discrimination, racism, that was part of life. It is not something you could it is not philosophy im talking now, it is just if your neighborhood look a certain way, the white neighborhoods were a certain way. Black people generally lived in our area on one side of the railroad tracks. We had ditches in our street. Any kind of public system always worked against you, and it was what the system was. You didnt have distance from it. It is easy to look back on the things and experience it not the way you experienced it when you grew in it. When you grew in it, it was a fact of life. I happen to be someone who never liked it. I fought the lot and had a lot of problems in that system. But most people adapted to it and were ok with it. They didnt like it, but sometimes you are in a bad situation, in this case we are talking about racism. It could be anything, a health situation, the degree to which you are really willing to fight against it is based on your ability to accept the pain of fighting against it. David are you surprised about the black lives matter situation . Here we are in the year 2020, well advanced past the time you grew up, and we still have racial problems of that type. Wynton we are not anywhere near advanced past what i grew up with, so no, i am not surprised by it. I had the honor to go into so Many American schools through the 1980s and 1990s, and early 2000s, probably well over 1000 schools. We have a segregation in our systems, in general. So none of it is surprising to me. David today, as a famous jazz musician you are recognized all placese country and many around the world. You are still suffering from racial discrimination, do you still feel even despite your exalted status in the music world, you are not treated the same as you would be if you were white . Wynton yes, i feel that. I feel it in terms of the kind of intellectual patronization i receive, the low level of criticism of our music. Of subject to things course, nothing like i grew up with nor do i make a habit of complaining about it constantly, because im also treated with so much respect by so many people, that for me to complain would be past gratuitous. If you asked me directly, i would say i am treated unfairly by newspapers like the new york times, the way our institution is covered is abominable. The quality of the articles are always very poor for their research, the writers often dont do the history and lack the intelligence and depth of engagement with the form to be qualified to speak on in the because itsrd, jazz, that doesnt matter. Its only in direct response to your question, because i dont want to confuse it with when i was growing up or the situation i found myself in, or my fathers situation, my grandfathers situation, lets go back in generations. Im grateful for how i have been treated by people all over this country of all kind. David theres a story that when you were 10, your father had you sit down with al hirt, maybe it was miles davis, and they said , how would you like to play the trumpet . And they give you a trumpet the play. Is there anything true in that . Wynton when i was a six, my father was playing with al hirt, and he gave me a trumpet for my sixth birthday. My father was later talking to miles davis and said im getting my son a trumpet. Before al got me a trumpet, my father was talking to miles, and miles said, dont get that boy a trumpet, it is too hard. That is a true story. David as you grew up, you were a Classical Musician. More than a jazz musician. And when you went to julliard, where you went to college, you were interested in Classical Music. Is that true . Wynton no, i grew up always wanting to play jazz, but jazz is always much more difficult to learn in that time, especially than Classical Music. Because my father was a jazz musician, i was around the music, raised in the culture, i loved the musician. My father was a modern jazz musician. He wasnt playing new orleans jazz. At a certain time when i was 10 or 11, he started playing new orleans music, and i also played in danny barkers Fairview Baptist church band, which was a new orleans traditional band. Jazz was difficult at that time for a person my age and my generation to figure out what it was, because it was not part of the american mythology. Whereas with Classical Music, you have competitions, classes you can go to, so you can get a track record on your resume. If you say what did i do, you would say i won a competition to play the trumpet concerto with the new orleans philharmonic. But i was playing jazz the whole time. Talosed in a club called vehicle on a wednesday. David one year, you won a grammy, the only person to win a grammy in jazz and Classical Music in the same year. Wynton funny story about my father. He went to the grammys, he was not into those things, and he sat through the whole show and thelike, wow, that is grammys. At the end of the show, i won, i was in the hotel with him and my mother getting ready to go out to a party or something, and i was like my dad looked at me and was wondering, he said im glad that was the grammys, im glad you won. Dont get me wrong, its great, but you dont think this means you can play, do you . [laughter] i started laughing, because i was like 22. I knew what he was saying, because i still had a long way to go to learn how to play. David what did people say initially when you said we need to do more jazz at Lincoln Center . Wynton the initial problem at rockefeller, they didnt like the music. It doesnt matter, the constitution was not written for the rights of africanamericans and native americans in mind, but the constitution can be amended, and it has been amended. David you could argue Classical Music came from europe, and he could argue other music came from other parts of the world, but jazz was invented in the United States, and its a classic american invention, i would say. Why is it so hard for people to understand . You have written a book about it, and you make it sound like it is almost a religious experience to play jazz and understand jazz. Its important to be an individual who can play well, but also to play with a team. Can you explain why jazz is almost like a religion to people who care about jazz . Well, jazz is our national artform. As such, it objectifies a lot of our basic principles. If a group of people are blessed to have an art form, which you can have a civilization and a society and you may never create an art form that does that. Its a blessing. So, america was blessed with a group of musicians in a social condition that produced this music. The music has three fundamental elements. The first is improvisation, which is our individuality and what we believe in. We have rights and freedoms that are about the individual. Then swing, which is about nurturing common ground, finding balance with other people, working out an agenda as you go along under the pressure of time. Then the blues. The blues is an optimism that is not naive. The blues also implies an acuity. Thats a democratic thing. Suffice it to say that everything in music ties into things we do, down to the three branches of government. Like the rhythm section. To amend the constitution is like adding to an arrangement. I can go on and on. After a while of giving you these examples, you will realize these are not superficial things that are contrived, they come out of the american way of life. This is going to be a longer answer, but it is important. The simple question of jazzs position in our country concerns the relationship of slavery to the american identity and our mythology as a country. Black americans by and large in our country have little or no knowledge of jazz. And jazz is the greatest achievement of the afro American Culture in the context of the American Culture. Meaning, it is afroamerican, but it applies to all americans. As there are many things in africanAmerican Culture that apply to america. Our poor Public Education system makes sure a Certain Group remains ignorant. And the average white jazz fan,r is actually a rock who for a long time wished jazz would be Something Else without black folks at the core of it, like jazz would die away. Thats why if you study jazz, there is a longstanding tradition of article after article and decade after decade saying is jazz dead . Thats probably one of the most questions thats been asked since the 1930s. All of this investment and the destruction of jazz is to further obscure a big lie that jazz uncovers, and its important to look at this. Because it is a serious thing to consider if we were to transform our nation. If we say our nation is based on human freedom, and we are the first on earth founded on the glorious celebration of human freedom, dignity, and rights, how do we then reconcile and correct the systemic ownership ofg brutalizing a large underclass of people for free labor because of their skin color . Too much injustice to correct. So we are forced to say those people are responsible for the problem. They are less than human, and it is just their condition. But if they are not, it is not their condition, that means our mythology and belief about ourselves is not true. Is elvis not going to be the king . Where are you going to put jazz if elvis is the king . David let me ask you, if i were to go to listen to a tchaikovsky concert, or a beethoven concert, it is going to be mostly be sounding the same, no matter where i am going to listen to it and no matter what orchestra. They might play slightly better or different, but you know what you will get when you sit down. With jazz, am i wrong that a jazz musician can kind of expand on what has been composed and play differently every different time . Is that part of what jazz is all about . Wynton thats the improvisation part. That one part allows you to get a lot of latitude to do things. It is like the way americans conduct business, all of the innovations we have, the freedom we have to speak. The fact we think we can step into space and use our personality to transform a tradition. Yes, we have that freedom. But balancing that freedom is , we have the responsibility to extend a courtesy and understanding to other people with those freedoms and nurture that common space. Thats the part of jazz we struggle with. David in your book on jazz, you talk about some of the greats you either played with or who influenced you. I would like to ask your brief comments on some of them. First is Louis Armstrong. You originally thought he was, as you say, an uncle tom, but you changed your view, i guess . Wynton yes, because it is hard for later generations to understand the challenges of earlier generations. In norms, things of show business, what Louis Armstrong did, it doesnt mean now i understand more of his genius and who he was and what he played, but it still doesnt mean when i look at the movies he made, the positions he went, i dont necessarily like that. I dont like where black people are in any american movies of the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. As a matter of fact, some of it now, a lot of it now has that same type of destructive mythology. If you consider the fact that when i was a teenager, the heroic figure for black youth in movies were pimps. What is it for a pimp to be a hero or at the top of your mythology . To not get sidetracked, i thought that. But later i understood who Louis Armstrong was as a musician. Thats a totally different story. That man was a genius of such magnitude, you could lie about how great he was and you still would not be saying enough. David you are a composer, as well as performer, educator, conductor, and so forth. One of the great composers in the jazz world was duke ellington. Did he have any influence on you . Wynton great. You know, i love duke. Dukes intelligence, dedication, over 2000 pieces, i love him. Because i grew up also listening to Classical Music, i love beethoven. David what about Dizzy Gillespie . Was he an influence on you . Wynton the thing about Dizzy Gillespie that hit me first was the depth of his intelligence. I met him when i was 14. Just when he started talking with my dad and other musicians. Dizzy was very intelligent. Hes part of the reason we developed jazz at Lincoln Center. I did not want to play in a big band. I always wanted to play small band music. Dizzy told me i called and called him and asked him what he thought i should do. He said to lose ones orchestral heritage should not be considered an achievement. He was telling me, because he said you need to figure out how to keep our orchestral heritage, we paid a lot of dues to build up orchestral music in jazz. For us to give it away and say big band is oldfashioned, thats not intelligent. David lets talk a bit about jazz at Lincoln Center. You began playing jazz at Lincoln Center in the late 1980s . Wynton yeah, 1987. David that evolved to jazz at Lincoln Center, which you are the artistic and music director of jazz at Lincoln Center orchestra, is that right . Wynton we wanted to fill a space in the american arts and provide enough education and music and advocacy, enough concerts for us as a nation to have our native art form when it came time for us to address our mythology and correct it so we can move forward as a nation. So we have succeeded beyond any of our wildest imagination with the volume of concerts we have been able to do. We built three concert halls in the middle of manhattan, on 59th street, the house of swing. We put on Concert Series over 30 years. We have 12 education programs. Even since the pandemic, we have put out over 600 pieces virtually. We are deeply engaged. David when you started Lincoln Center when Lincoln Center opened in the 1960s, people thought this is opera, symphonic music, Classical Music. You came along and said maybe we can have jazz. What did people say when you said we need to do more jazz at Lincoln Center . Wynton we had a lot of support from the top of the organization. Everybody was dedicated. You know, when it was founded, the Lincoln Center didnt think about the music or gave the initial founders didnt like the music, it doesnt matter. The constitution was not written with the rights of afroamericans and native americans in mind, but the constitution can be amended, and it has been amended. David how do you divide your time between playing, conducting, composing, and teaching . Wynton i work all the time. So i dont separate anything. My work is also my hobby. David let me ask you, and no more more in a more normal time, are you on the road . How do you divide your time between playing, conducting, composing, and teaching . I do wynton i do many things. Our management team, they are all fantastic colleagues. If anything, i recall the time. I dont separate anything. Work is also my hobby. And this pandemic, i always respected my colleagues. The pandemic has given me such a greater appreciation of the quality of people i have been blessed to work with. Our orchestra, we still have the vast majority of our staff on, we are open for business, the orchestra is so supportive of the mission of the organization. We have 11 arrangers in our orchestra, that never happens. Composers, teachers. The phone calls i get. Then when you get to our staff, managers of every division of our building, our cfo, i can go position to position. Peoples dedication will bring me to tears. That is why, you know, we are struggling like other arts organizations are, because we have lost the ability to earn revenue, but we are so for real about our mission and achieving it, even under this type of duress. I think the greatest blessing i have had in my life is to work with this high quality people for this amount of time. I am so grateful for that opportunity. I dont even consider it to be work. David when you go overseas, is jazz popular outside of the United States . Wynton jazz has never really been popular. So, no, its not popular like funk was popular, like rock n roll is popular. Its not popular. Jazz is meaningful, and it is necessary. So those who are interested in that, like jazz. Those who are not, they dont like jazz. There are other things to like. We need to teach our kids about the music. It is a national art form. People say, who is going to be new in jazz . I say people just have to listen to it. David lets suppose somebody has never been exposed to jazz very much. I have just listened to wynton marsalis, theyre persuaded he knows what hes talking about, so listen to jazz. What would you tell people why the jazz experience as a listener is so compelling compared to other forms of music . Wynton because it has a development section. So you have to follow what musicians play from one point. Thats why i like beethovens symphony. It wasnt repeating one thing over and over again, it was one thing, and another thing. Jazz is the music most in the world like conversation. Jazz is a music that prides prizes individuality. You have a lot of individuals you can interface with, billie holiday, herbie hancock, you can name musicians. You have great groups that play in different forms, and you have the whole afrolatin form of jazz. It takes you everywhere from brazil, to kubo to cuba, to puerto rico. It integrates citizenship and understanding of the world, and most importantly it gives you tremendous pride in being american, because we didnt have to denigrate or cut anybody down, or do anything negative to anybody to create this. It is a nonpredatory form, it is a symbiotic form. And you can be as rich as you want to be in jazz, and no one has to be poor. David you are a teenager by my standards, so you are very young. Wynton [laughter] david you will do this for a couple of decades, because this is what you love doing, right . Wynton i still smell similac on you, i dont know what you are talking about. David you are young. Wynton i am going to do this until i die, the good lord willing. If people will have me. I have been blessed to do something abstract and get unbelievable support from people. That is why earlier, when i answered the question of racism, for somebody like me to complain, i would have to be out of my mind. Businesses today are looking to tomorrow. Adapting. 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