Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20240905

The deaths that occurred were all avoidable and those who lived in the tower were badly failed by those who were responsible for ensuring the safety of the building and its occupants. The country failed to discharge its most fundamental duty to protect you and your Loved Ones, the people that we are here to serve, and i am deeply sorry. Human life was never a priority and we lost friends, neighbours and Loved Ones in the most horrific way. Through greed, corruption, incompetence and negligence. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Vladimir putin talks of restoring greatness to what he calls the russian world an expansive territory which, as ukrainians know to their cost, stretches far beyond russias current borders. Putins Expansionist Nationalism requires military power, but its harnessed the cultural spiritual authority of the russian Orthodox Church, too. My guest, andrey kordochkin, was a russian Orthodox Priest who spoke out against the ukraine war and the putinisation of his church. But is he swimming against an unstoppable tide . Andrey kordochkin, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Its a great Honour And Privilege to be here. Well, its great to have you in the studio. Let me take you back to February 2022. Putin orders an all out invasion of ukraine. Within days, you, a priest in the russian Orthodox Church, choose to speak out against the invasion. When you did that, did you feel that this would be the end of your career in the russian Orthodox Church . I think that when the war has begun, very few of us could actually give a prediction of what is going to come through. So i think that many people would suggest that the war would be over in a very short period of time. So i dont think that any of us was acting out of any kind of prediction. And i think when i spoke out against the war, i dont think that i really felt any choice. I thought that it was a moral imperative on behalf of any christian or any sensible and reasonable person, to try to stop it, or at least not to be a part of what one may call a moraljustification of evil. But you didnt actually just speak out yourself. Within days, you were a co signatory to a declaration that, i think, involved almost 300 russian Orthodox Priests, who were opposed to this invasion. So, it wasnt just yourself. You were at the beginnings of creating a movement. Well, we tried to show that the church is not really a communist party, when on the one side you have someone who speaks on behalf of everyone, and on the other side, you have the silence of the lambs. So, of course, i think many people were very much disappointed with the rhetoric that was taken by the officially by the Moscow Patriarchate. But we wanted to show that it is not the, um, entire russian orthodox community, laypeople and priests, who do support it. We thought that if the people are expecting to hear some christian evaluation of what is happening, if it doesnt come from above, it has to come from below. If you had such moral qualms, which you felt you had to express in the wake of February 2022, why hadnt you expressed them very much earlier . After all, russias Military Operations in ukraine began in 2014. The Annexation Of Crimea took place in 2014. I dont see you speaking out against that. Well, this was not the first time that we spoke out against a line that was taken by the government. For example, a few years before this open letter appeared, there was another open letter signed by the priest on the so called moscow case. And i have published some articles, for example, where i questioned why, for example, ivan ilyin, who is essentially a fascist thinker, why he became the main, uh, the most central philosophical figure for the russian authorities. Or, for example, i participated in the discussion of blessing of the weapons, and i was actually warning that in this discourse it may happen that a war will be launched against a neighbouring country, which will be presented as defensive. Right, so thats my point, in a way. Wed had this sort of blessing of the weapons. We had the Patriarch Kirill and well talk some more about him, im sure, in the course of this interview, describing Putins Leadership as a miracle of god. We had catherine belton, an author whose book, putins people, is regarded as a definitive book on Putins Power in russia, talking about the way the russian Orthodox Church was promoted in Eastern Ukraine before and after 2014. You, as a priest in that church, serving in madrid, saw and heard all of these things. I just wonder why it took the invasion of 2022 to become a Tipping Point for you . Well, i think everyone has his own Tipping Point, and this was really the point of division, which required a choice on behalf of everyone, including the laity and the priests. But, you know, before that, before the full invasion of russia into ukraine has begun, all the russian church was really praying for Peace And Reconciliation in the east of ukraine. Was it, really . Was the Patriarch Kirill praying for peace . Well, these were the prayers that were in use, at least liturgically. And something has changed in a very radical way when the war has begun. And from the language of reconciliation, the official language has become that of victory. So, for example, most of the priests who are being repressed now in the russian church for not supporting the official line, they are being repressed because they refuse to read the so called prayer for the holy rus. And one of the most famous cases is when a priest changed only one word in the prayer. The Word Victory he changed for the word peace. And so he was then defrocked. Thats extraordinary. So by refusing to use the Word Victory and replacing it with the word peace, if you are a russian Orthodox Cleric inside russia, you will be punished and probably removed, will you . Removed, will you . Indeed. Indeed. And, at present, i do not and, at present, i do not know any clergyman in know any clergyman in the russian Orthodox Church the russian Orthodox Church who would openly oppose the war who would openly oppose the war and the pro war rhetoric, and the pro war rhetoric, and would still remain at service. And would still remain at service. So, how many. Serving inside Russia Itself . So, how many. The repressions are numerous. The repressions are numerous. Of the almost 300 priests. Of the almost 300 priests who signed that that declaration who signed that that declaration in the early days after the february in the early days after the February 2022 invasion, how many of them 2022 invasion, how many of them were, like yourself, were, like yourself, expatriate priests working expatriate priests working in foreign churches in foreign churches within the russian Orthodox Church . Within the russian Orthodox Church . And how many were actual priests and how many were actual priests serving inside Russia Itself . Well, i would say i dont remember the numbers exactly, but i would suggest that probably about 200 were in Russia Itself, and maybe about 100 would be outside of the country. But at least now. And whats happened to those 200 or so . How many of them do you think are still in the church . Of the ecclesiastical and of governmental bodies, but some of them had to emigrate. But, besides helping these people, we wanted to give them a voice, and we wanted to show, and we still want to show that the russian Orthodox Church is very far from supporting Putins Rhetoric in its fullness. Just to be clear about your own situation, you are no longer inside the russian Orthodox Church. Technically, i think, you resigned, but was it a genuine resignation, or were you pushed . Well, i was pushed because in the beginning of the year 2023, i was suspended as a priest by a secret resolution of the patriarch of moscow. So this came from kirill . This came from kirill directly. How do you know . Well, i know because i was then a diocesan secretary, so i know things. But, for me, it was a clear move that if this was a temporary suspension, then the indefinite one will come sooner or later. So then i realised that i have to go. Do you feel entirely safe now . I know youve moved from madrid, where you were running the russian Orthodox Cathedral in madrid. You now live in germany. We know that the russian government doesnt like dissidents, opponents, to be vocal, to be active, whether they are operating inside russia or very farfrom russia. Do you feel threatened in any way . Well, i wouldnt want to compare my own risks with the risk of the people who are physically in russia, and with the bravery of those people who are in russia. For example, with the people that i have met personally, the russian political prisoners who have been exchanged, on the one hand, and on the other hand, with the real risks of those people who remain in ukraine and defend their country. I just dont see myself in the same situation. What do you think the russian Orthodox Church makes of the fact that youre still preaching, albeit not in their church, but you are still an active 0rthodox priest, no longer tied to moscow . I didnt ask them. Do you use your pulpit to send do you use your pulpit to send a very clear message of opposition . A very clear message of opposition . Well, i dont think that the pulpit well, i dont think that the pulpit is meant for opposition. Is meant for opposition. I think that the pulpit i think that the pulpit is meant to proclaim is meant to proclaim the gospel and to proclaim the gospel and to proclaim the christian vision. The christian vision. But if what you preach contradicts but if what you preach contradicts the official narrative, the official narrative, then you are being accused then you are being accused of participation in the opposition. Are the real heroes. Of participation in the opposition. But, of course, i still keep but, of course, i still keep in touch with the russian media, in touch with the russian media, both in the country and abroad. Both in the country and abroad. Some people still carry some people still carry on working in russia on working in russia and they are the real heroes. And they are the real heroes. Like, for example, dmitry muratov, like, for example, dmitry muratov, who is the nobel Prize Winner who is the nobel Prize Winner and the Editor In Chief in the past and the Editor In Chief in the past of novaya gazeta. Of novaya gazeta. So, these people so, these people are the real heroes. And, of course, i try to support people and address people using the possibilities that i have, both the russian journalists who are in russia and abroad. At the beginning of this programme, i talked about the way so, for example, if you look at the doctrine of the russian world, which you have mentioned, it was constructed artificially in the 1990s as an alternative to the post soviet identity, basically of shame, after the collapse of the soviet union. But then it was taken up by kremlin and, for example, vladislav surkov, who was one of the politicians directly responsible for the policy of russia in Eastern Ukraine. He said that, for us, this concept was interesting because it corresponded to our desire to expand. And, in another interview, he said that for russia to be within its limits is boring and uncomfortable. The paper of the Moscow Patriarchate in this sense is that the doctrine is being sacralized. So it is the russian world, not simply as an ethnic or a national community, but as a community which is morally superior to the world because it lives according to the so called traditional values, which have the divine origin. Its a supernatural community, which was born at the baptism of russia, etc. I guess what im really getting to is the degree to which Vladimir Putin dictates to the russian Orthodox Church and uses it as a tool. Is that the way you see it, or is it more complex than that . I think its way more complex than that. And i think that its also quite different from the situation in which the church found itself in the soviet union. So, for example, i remember a story which was told to me by Metropolitan Anthony bloom, who lived in london, who represented the russian church here for decades. And he said that once, it must have been the 1970s, To London came metropolitan nikodim, who was a teacher of the patriarch, and he gave a press conference, probably here in the bbc. The journalists were asking him, you know, how is the church in russia . Are there any persecutions . Is there any pressure . He said, everything is fine, everything is brilliant. And after that he approached Metropolitan Anthony and asked, how did i sound . How was it . He said, it was terrible and everyone was laughing at you and no one believed you. He said, brilliant, because this is the way i meant it to be. Now, the difference now, now, the difference now, is that the people who preach is that the people who preach what we call z theology, i think what we call z theology, i think they believe what they preach. They believe what they preach. I dont think that its possible i dont think that its possible to persuade the patriarch to say to persuade the patriarch to say something that he does not believe. Something that he does not believe. So, i would not think. So, i would not think. Hang on, this is important. Hang on, this is important. I mean, the patriarch has basically, i mean, the patriarch has basically, to paraphrase him somewhat, to paraphrase him somewhat, has basically described the war has basically described the war in ukraine as a holy war. In ukraine as a holy war. He suggested that those who die to these people, you have he suggested that those who die fighting for russia in this War Fighting for russia in this war will be absolved of their sins. Will be absolved of their sins. This makes it sound like some this makes it sound like some sort of holy crusade. Sort of holy crusade. Well, i mean, on the one hand, well, i mean, on the one hand, i think that what is really i think that what is really important here is that important here is that the relationship between the church the relationship between the church and the state is not simply and the state is not simply objects and subjects. Objects and subjects. I think that when you listen i think that when you listen to these people, you have to understand that it is something very similar to an apocalyptic sect, which is absolutely assured in its own superiority, and it is sure that the world does not have any meaning. The existence of the world has no meaning without god is gender neutral, and he could not accept that. Obviously, the discussion was not about god, but it was about the gender neutral language. But, obviously, for him, it was so difficult to accept. He does believe that god has a gender, and if god has a gender, obviously, its a male god. And what does it mean to be a man in the Post Soviet Culture . You know, we have this word in russian, muzhik, which would really, if a man asks another, are you muzhik or not . Its really the capacity to resolve any conflict by violence and by aggression. So, for example, you may want to refer to a book written by hector garcia, which is called the alpha god, where he shows how sometimes in the evolution of humanity, the Alpha Males were inventing Alpha Gods to make them look like themselves. So i think that we are speaking about some kind of religion, but its going to be a very, very basic one. Lets talk about another russian, who was very public in his religiosity, and thats Alexei Navalny. You agreed to officiate in a commemorative service just a few months ago after navalny� s death in prison, which involved his wife. And she thanked you for your Involvement And Youve spoken about your admiration for navalny� s courage. In a way, how can the same russian Orthodox Religion have fuelled the behaviours, the Belief System of putin and of Alexei Navalny . Well, i mean, if you look at the history of christianity, you can say that christianity has been fuelling all kinds of things not of which are going to improve. But i think that regarding navalny himself, i never knew him personally, but i think that we owe him a few things. One is that he, um, contributed to destroy a myth, which is one of the central ones in the russian propaganda that if someone thinks and acts not in accordance with the official line, it means that he is paid from abroad and he is directed from abroad. Now, obviously, there is no authority, and there is no money that can send someone to a place like kharp and to accept terrible death in that prison. The second thing is something that i spoke about at this Memorial Service is that, you know, being a christian is not just about, um, quoting the bible, but its about following christ in a very literal manner. So the image that i had in front of my eyes when he was boarding a plane from Berlin To Moscow is that of descent into hell. So one of the things that i said at the ceremony is that navalny taught us that you can be in hell and not be a part of it. You took navalny� s fight against putin as an example that others could follow. Weve discussed in this interview how difficult it is to be a dissident priest in russia today. But youve said that, actually, there is scope for peaceful resistance in russia that can make a meaningful difference to russias future. In fact, not so long ago, you said that, we russians can learn from martin luther king. I think that in russia, we have not yet exhausted the potential for nonviolent resistance. Surely, given what happened to navalny, given the enormity of putins Repressive Machinery Inside the state, thats just wishful thinking. I dont think it is. Because if you think how to stop a tank or an aeroplane, maybe the obvious question would be that, you know, it has to be stopped only by weapons. But in order for it to advance, you have people inside who are motivated to do it, and there are people who construct it. So, for example, i saw someone with an academic background. Itry. What i have tried to do in the last months and a few years is to try to see this religious pseudo religious doctrine and to try to deconstruct it. And this would be a way to simply to show people how they are being manipulated. You think russians are listening to you . Some of them are. I wouldnt say that there. We cant say there are many or not. But, uh, for example, when we made an interview with katerina gordeeva, there were some 2 Million viewers. So i think that for people, it is because people are so disillusioned with the church, with the institutional church, because people feel that using the image of the gospel, they are receiving the stone instead of the bread, and instead of the christian message, they receive a mix of conspiracy, militarism and nationalism. Its very important for them to hear some voices, which, in the middle of this gaslight, if i may use this word, help them to survive. Just a final thought. Volodymyr zelensky and the Ukrainian Parliament have just essentially banned the Orthodox Church on ukraines soil. Theyre closing down those churches. Theyve accused some clerics involved with the church of acting as agents of russia. Some have been accused of treason. Do you, as a former priest in the russian Orthodox Church, agree with ukraine that the church has been used as an agent, in effect, in places like ukraine . Well, first of all, there is no russian Orthodox Church in ukraine now. So what is the ukrainian Orthodox Church has. Which is the moscow Affiliated. . Well, it is. The question is precisely whether it is Affiliated because it is not Affiliated any longer now for a few years, and there is no reason why it should be victimised. But i think that in a sense, what is happening in ukraine because. Well, how should i explain it . I think that what happens in a war, especially if the victory does not seem to be very near, is that the massive aggression is being canalised from the external enemy to the internal one. So in this sense, i would say that ukraine is really repeating the. Well, i wouldnt want to use a mistake, it has to be some. Stronger word. But what is being done in russia. So, obviously, the state in ukraine is farfrom being neutral. And of course, as a christian, as a priest, i cannot approve of cases when the churches are taken over by violence and by force, and the authorities turn their blind eye. Im not necessarily saying the government as such, but the local governments. And i dont think that these questions can be decided by. Decided by violence and by force. I would never approve it. But you feared what the ukrainians have done to this, as you say, this Orthodox Church, which is ukrainian, but in the past has historically been tied to the russian Orthodox Church, you believe that the measures taken could represent a form of religious repression or not . Well, it is definitely a form of repression. But i dont think that anyone should be, in this sense, judged by their past. I think that you have to consider the reality, which is there today, and the Reality Today is that the people who belong to this church, they are. Supporting their country in their war of freedom, independence, and i dont see a reason why they should be victimised. And, on the whole, you know, when every State Functionary sees himself as a kind of Emperor Constantine and thinks that he has the authority to rule and to govern what we may want to call religious life. You know, im not quite happy about that. Andrey kordochkin, we have to end there. I thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much indeed. Hello. Were expecting a real mix of weather over the next couple of days. For some northwestern parts of the uk, its going to turn sunny and very warm, but further south for southern England And South wales, were expecting some Heavy Rain. Perhaps in one or two locations, a Months Worth of rain in just a couple of days that could cause some disruption. Its all because low pressure is continuing to swirl to the south of us, this band of rain here becoming quite slow moving, particularly, i think, across the southwest of england. But around that area of low pressure, were drawing in some humid air, so further north and west with some sunshine it will feel very warm. Now, during thursday, these Southern Parts of England And South wales will see some rain at times that Rain Turning Heavy and persistent in the southwest later on. Further north, a lot of Low Cloud, mistand murk, some spots of drizzle, but the best of the sunshine where you get some shelter from the breeze. Western scotland and northern ireland, temperature wise, well, maybe along some North Sea Coast just 15 or 16 degrees, but elsewhere 18 21 with a slightly more humid feel. But as we head into the evening, this Heavy Rain affecting south west england, clipping into South Wales, and overnight, it looks like we will see more rain pushing along the south coast. So with that rain really totting up, there is the risk of flooding, some disruption. Further north, largely dry, some Mist And Murk and Low Cloud for North Sea Coast. Quite a muggy start to friday morning. More rain through the day on friday across southern england, perhaps pushing northwards into South Wales and the midlands, perhaps East Anglia as well as we go through the day. Further north, while still some areas of Low Cloud, Mist And Murk for some northern and eastern coasts, but further west, some good spells of sunshine, and look at the Temperatures Liverpool at 26 degrees, parts of Western Scotland at 25 degrees, so feeling warm and quite humid into the weekend. 0ur Area of low pressure continues to swirl to the south of us, throwing some showers northwards. Still quite a lot of Mist And Murk and Low Cloud. Could be some fog around to start, saturday morning. Should see some spells of sunshine, and again, in the sunshine, feeling very warm with those temperatures, perhaps up to around 25 degrees. Into sunday, more of the same, really. Some showers, particularly in the south. Some sunshine, too. Still feeling warm and muggy. Welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, im steve lai. The headlines. A 14 year old boy is to be charged with murder in the Us State Of Georgia after four people are killed and nine injured in a shooting at a high school. Washington Accuses Moscow of using Social Media influencers to interfere with the upcoming president ial election. The final report into one of britains worst ever residential fires has been published seven years after 72 people died in the grenfell tower disaster. A new maori monarch will be announced ahead of kiingi tuheitias funeral